[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

I figure there is enough expertise in this group to successfully tackle
this challenge...

Now all it takes is money!


http://blogs.abcnews.com/scienceands...2/moon-20.html


The latest version of the X Prize is backed by Google: $20 million to
the first private enterprise that can land a robotic rover on the lunar
surface, send back images and data, and travel at least 500 meters--with
more rewards if it can find artifacts from the early days of lunar
exploration, when only the U.S. and Soviet governments could afford to
send probes.

The Apollo landings and the probes that preceded them were, to the X
Prize managers, "Moon 1.0"--done by Cold War powers in an expensive
rush, with no long-term plan to stay and mine the moon for whatever it
had to offer. Now comes Moon 2.0.

"The Google Lunar X PRIZE is an unprecedented international competition
that will challenge and inspire engineers and entrepreneurs from around
the world to develop low-cost methods of robotic space exploration." say
the backers.

They now have their first applicant: an operation called Odyssey Moon,
founded by Robert Richards, an entrepreneur who's also founded the
International Space University in France.

[Steve Lusardi]

I think you have a great idea. There are a lot of very talented people who
read this newsgroup, each with varying resources and tooling. Perhaps this
fellow Robert Richards would wish to place item drawings on a web site for
hobbiests to make. Sort of like an outsourcing thing to defray his expenses.
I think organizing and managing this would be a significant challenge, but I
think it could be done. Consider the value and power a worldwide fabrication
and problem solving facility and at your fingertips. This has to be
attractive.
Steve

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
...
I figure there is enough expertise in this group to successfully tackle
this challenge...

Now all it takes is money!


http://blogs.abcnews.com/scienceands...2/moon-20.html


The latest version of the X Prize is backed by Google: $20 million to the
first private enterprise that can land a robotic rover on the lunar
surface, send back images and data, and travel at least 500 meters--with
more rewards if it can find artifacts from the early days of lunar
exploration, when only the U.S. and Soviet governments could afford to
send probes.

The Apollo landings and the probes that preceded them were, to the X Prize
managers, "Moon 1.0"--done by Cold War powers in an expensive rush, with
no long-term plan to stay and mine the moon for whatever it had to offer.
Now comes Moon 2.0.

"The Google Lunar X PRIZE is an unprecedented international competition
that will challenge and inspire engineers and entrepreneurs from around
the world to develop low-cost methods of robotic space exploration." say
the backers.

They now have their first applicant: an operation called Odyssey Moon,
founded by Robert Richards, an entrepreneur who's also founded the
International Space University in France.

[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

I think it a "roll yer own" type thing.


Steve Lusardi wrote:

I think you have a great idea. There are a lot of very talented people who
read this newsgroup, each with varying resources and tooling. Perhaps this
fellow Robert Richards would wish to place item drawings on a web site for
hobbiests to make. Sort of like an outsourcing thing to defray his expenses.
I think organizing and managing this would be a significant challenge, but I
think it could be done. Consider the value and power a worldwide fabrication
and problem solving facility and at your fingertips. This has to be
attractive.
Steve

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
...

I figure there is enough expertise in this group to successfully tackle
this challenge...

Now all it takes is money!


http://blogs.abcnews.com/scienceands...2/moon-20.html


The latest version of the X Prize is backed by Google: $20 million to the
first private enterprise that can land a robotic rover on the lunar
surface, send back images and data, and travel at least 500 meters--with
more rewards if it can find artifacts from the early days of lunar
exploration, when only the U.S. and Soviet governments could afford to
send probes.

The Apollo landings and the probes that preceded them were, to the X Prize
managers, "Moon 1.0"--done by Cold War powers in an expensive rush, with
no long-term plan to stay and mine the moon for whatever it had to offer.
Now comes Moon 2.0.

"The Google Lunar X PRIZE is an unprecedented international competition
that will challenge and inspire engineers and entrepreneurs from around
the world to develop low-cost methods of robotic space exploration." say
the backers.

They now have their first applicant: an operation called Odyssey Moon,
founded by Robert Richards, an entrepreneur who's also founded the
International Space University in France.

[Stealth Pilot]

On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 21:29:26 -0600, cavelamb himself
wrote:

I figure there is enough expertise in this group to successfully tackle
this challenge...

Now all it takes is money!


http://blogs.abcnews.com/scienceands...2/moon-20.html


The latest version of the X Prize is backed by Google: $20 million to
the first private enterprise that can land a robotic rover on the lunar
surface, send back images and data, and travel at least 500 meters--with
more rewards if it can find artifacts from the early days of lunar
exploration, when only the U.S. and Soviet governments could afford to
send probes.

The Apollo landings and the probes that preceded them were, to the X
Prize managers, "Moon 1.0"--done by Cold War powers in an expensive
rush, with no long-term plan to stay and mine the moon for whatever it
had to offer. Now comes Moon 2.0.

"The Google Lunar X PRIZE is an unprecedented international competition
that will challenge and inspire engineers and entrepreneurs from around
the world to develop low-cost methods of robotic space exploration." say
the backers.

They now have their first applicant: an operation called Odyssey Moon,
founded by Robert Richards, an entrepreneur who's also founded the
International Space University in France.

in my local environment it is only I who thinks this a damn
interesting challenge.

I've nutted out some of the technicalities just in the idle moments
today.

navigation to the moon is a piece of cake. launch just before midnight
on a moonlit night and have the robot navigator stay focussed on the
large polarised dot of light in the sky and head for it.

gods I'd get a legit excuse to experiment with godard rockets!

payload could be the size of a radio controlled model car.
launch a whole bundle of them for redundancy.

how do you prove you got there?
find and cut down the american flag and replace it with an australian
one :-)
that'd be sure to see a moon mission just to put back a bigger
american one :-)

damn what an interesting challenge!

Stealth Pilot

[Nick Hull]

In article ,
Stealth Pilot wrote:

navigation to the moon is a piece of cake. launch just before midnight
on a moonlit night and have the robot navigator stay focussed on the
large polarised dot of light in the sky and head for it.

Won't work; you cannot go directly to the moon, you have to go around
the earth because of gravity and the earth's rotation. In any case, it
will take several days to get there

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

[Stealth Pilot]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 05:56:32 -0600, nick hull wrote:

In article ,
Stealth Pilot wrote:

navigation to the moon is a piece of cake. launch just before midnight
on a moonlit night and have the robot navigator stay focussed on the
large polarised dot of light in the sky and head for it.

Won't work; you cannot go directly to the moon, you have to go around
the earth because of gravity and the earth's rotation. In any case, it
will take several days to get there

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

can you tell me why a vehicle making a steady 100knots cant get to the
moon?
oil tankers traverse the world at 12 knots.

ok the full plot is ...launch on a moon lit night. get a stable
ascent, lock in the inputs from the stabilising gyros as setpoints.
proceed in a straight line. when the clock indicates that the moon is
almost in position each day scan the forward sky for the moon.
compute the course correction, adjust, lock in the gyro inputs as
setpoints. proceed in a straight line.
uniform motion in a straight line requires no thrust.
you merely need thrust to adjust for gravity.
toward the moon adjust course to chase the trajectory with a view to
getting almost to lunar speed.
since the moon isnt spinning it shouldnt be too hard to arrange an
intercept sorta like driving in a parallel lane to another car on the
freeway.

actually, rather than having a smart arsed tilt at you I'd appreciate
some comments on what would be actually be needed.

Stealth Pilot
free men live in societies where guns arent needed.

[Louis Ohland]

Just leave a pile of Fosters cans. That would do it. A bunch of whiny
eco-freaks will demand that the US sends a mission up to return the moon
to it's pristine state. Nevermind the cost...

Stealth Pilot wrote:
how do you prove you got there?
find and cut down the american flag and replace it with an australian
one :-)

[Ed Huntress]

"Stealth Pilot" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 05:56:32 -0600, nick hull wrote:

In article ,
Stealth Pilot wrote:

navigation to the moon is a piece of cake. launch just before midnight
on a moonlit night and have the robot navigator stay focussed on the
large polarised dot of light in the sky and head for it.

Won't work; you cannot go directly to the moon, you have to go around
the earth because of gravity and the earth's rotation. In any case, it
will take several days to get there

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

can you tell me why a vehicle making a steady 100knots cant get to the
moon?
oil tankers traverse the world at 12 knots.

That's a good question and one worth the time it takes to understand it.
Look up "escape velocity" and you'll see the equations.

The short answer is that you couldn't carry enough fuel to escape gravity
that way. A projectile under power must achieve some very high percentage of
the Earth's escape velocity, which is roughly 11.2 km/sec. Otherwise your
fuel supply will never last. Once you've achieved escape velocity, that's
the velocity you should try to conserve on your trip to the Moon.

--
Ed Huntress

[Jim Wilkins]

On Dec 10, 8:59 am, Stealth Pilot
wrote:
...
can you tell me why a vehicle making a steady 100knots cant get to the
moon?
oil tankers traverse the world at 12 knots.
...
Stealth Pilot

The oil tanker doesn't need an engine powerful enough to lift itself.
For each extra mile you climb you need the fuel to rise that mile plus
the added fuel to raise that fuel plus the fuel to raise the added
fuel ...

It's like building a mountain out of marbles.

[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

Stealth Pilot wrote:

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 05:56:32 -0600, nick hull wrote:


In article ,
Stealth Pilot wrote:


navigation to the moon is a piece of cake. launch just before midnight
on a moonlit night and have the robot navigator stay focussed on the
large polarised dot of light in the sky and head for it.

Won't work; you cannot go directly to the moon, you have to go around
the earth because of gravity and the earth's rotation. In any case, it
will take several days to get there

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/


can you tell me why a vehicle making a steady 100knots cant get to the
moon?
oil tankers traverse the world at 12 knots.

ok the full plot is ...launch on a moon lit night. get a stable
ascent, lock in the inputs from the stabilising gyros as setpoints.
proceed in a straight line. when the clock indicates that the moon is
almost in position each day scan the forward sky for the moon.
compute the course correction, adjust, lock in the gyro inputs as
setpoints. proceed in a straight line.
uniform motion in a straight line requires no thrust.
you merely need thrust to adjust for gravity.
toward the moon adjust course to chase the trajectory with a view to
getting almost to lunar speed.
since the moon isnt spinning it shouldnt be too hard to arrange an
intercept sorta like driving in a parallel lane to another car on the
freeway.

actually, rather than having a smart arsed tilt at you I'd appreciate
some comments on what would be actually be needed.

Stealth Pilot
free men live in societies where guns arent needed.




IIRC escape velocity from earth orbit is about 24,ooo mph (minimum)

100 kts won't even stay in orbit. That's up around 18,000.

While it may not make sense, launching straight up will not put
you into orbit. Nor is it a workable way to get to to moon.

The trick here is to aim for a point about 50 miles in front of where
the moon will be - when you get there. Which is all done with
computers!

Just like Apollo did, boost into earth orbit, TLI (Trans Lunar
Injection) takes you out towards the moon, course corrections as
required, then a braking burn to lunar orbit.

THEN you still have to get down, but without squishy people aboard
that might be easier that it was back then. A big burn to drop the
speed and a multi-balloon air bag to absorb the landing impact.

[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

Louis Ohland wrote:

Just leave a pile of Fosters cans. That would do it. A bunch of whiny
eco-freaks will demand that the US sends a mission up to return the moon
to it's pristine state. Nevermind the cost...


I'd kiss each of their pointy little heads, if only they would...

[Nick Hull]

In article ,
Stealth Pilot wrote:

free men live in societies where guns arent needed.

Free men live in societies where they have anything they can buy or make


Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

[Gunner[_2_]]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:17:41 -0600, nick hull wrote:

In article ,
Stealth Pilot wrote:

free men live in societies where guns arent needed.

Free men live in societies where they have anything they can buy or make


Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/


Those without weapons, will plow for those that do.

Gunner

[Larry Jaques]

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:30:50 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, T. Rex
quickly quoth:

In article ,
says...
navigation to the moon is a piece of cake. launch just before midnight
on a moonlit night and have the robot navigator stay focussed on the
large polarised dot of light in the sky and head for it.

No. You couldn't possibly carry enough fuel for the continuous course
changes needed to maintain that hyperbolic trajectory. You need to
figure out how long it's going to take to get there, and where the moon
will be at that time. Then aim at that point.

I just need to perfect my gravimetric drive.

--
My future starts when I wake up every morning...
Every day I find something creative to do with my life.
-- Miles Davis

[Winston]

Larry Jaques wrote:

(...)

I just need to perfect my gravimetric drive.

Forget the electromagnets and 'D' cells Larry.



--Winston

[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:30:50 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, T. Rex
quickly quoth:


In article ,
says...

navigation to the moon is a piece of cake. launch just before midnight
on a moonlit night and have the robot navigator stay focussed on the
large polarised dot of light in the sky and head for it.

No. You couldn't possibly carry enough fuel for the continuous course
changes needed to maintain that hyperbolic trajectory. You need to
figure out how long it's going to take to get there, and where the moon
will be at that time. Then aim at that point.


I just need to perfect my gravimetric drive.

--
My future starts when I wake up every morning...
Every day I find something creative to do with my life.
-- Miles Davis


While you are finishing u p on that

Lets start with a 100 pound payload.
several rovers for redundency and a "soft landing" package.

[Larry Jaques]

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:14:07 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
Winston quickly quoth:

Larry Jaques wrote:

(...)

I just need to perfect my gravimetric drive.

Forget the electromagnets and 'D' cells Larry.

_D_ cells? OK, I'll scrap my AAAA cell theory now. I'm back on the
cold-fusion buttons once again.

--
My future starts when I wake up every morning...
Every day I find something creative to do with my life.
-- Miles Davis

[JoanD'arcRoast]

In article , cavelamb himself
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:30:50 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, T. Rex
quickly quoth:


In article ,
says...

navigation to the moon is a piece of cake. launch just before midnight
on a moonlit night and have the robot navigator stay focussed on the
large polarised dot of light in the sky and head for it.

No. You couldn't possibly carry enough fuel for the continuous course
changes needed to maintain that hyperbolic trajectory. You need to
figure out how long it's going to take to get there, and where the moon
will be at that time. Then aim at that point.


I just need to perfect my gravimetric drive.

--
My future starts when I wake up every morning...
Every day I find something creative to do with my life.
-- Miles Davis


While you are finishing u p on that

Lets start with a 100 pound payload.
several rovers for redundency and a "soft landing" package.

Couldn't we reduce escape velocity fuel needs by lifting with a
balloon, and the then firing the rocket in earth orbit?

-j

[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

JoanD'arcRoast wrote:
In article , cavelamb himself
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:30:50 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, T. Rex
quickly quoth:



In article ,
says...


navigation to the moon is a piece of cake. launch just before midnight
on a moonlit night and have the robot navigator stay focussed on the
large polarised dot of light in the sky and head for it.

No. You couldn't possibly carry enough fuel for the continuous course
changes needed to maintain that hyperbolic trajectory. You need to
figure out how long it's going to take to get there, and where the moon
will be at that time. Then aim at that point.


I just need to perfect my gravimetric drive.

--
My future starts when I wake up every morning...
Every day I find something creative to do with my life.
-- Miles Davis


While you are finishing u p on that

Lets start with a 100 pound payload.
several rovers for redundency and a "soft landing" package.


Couldn't we reduce escape velocity fuel needs by lifting with a
balloon, and the then firing the rocket in earth orbit?

-j


It certaintly is something that needs to be examined as a possibility.
Contract with Rutan for Mothership services?

It would limit maximum all up launch weight to that of SpaceShip One.

And before anybody asks, no, I don't think the rubber motor will do
this time.


Richard

[Nick Hull]

In article ,
JoanD'arcRoast wrote:

Couldn't we reduce escape velocity fuel needs by lifting with a
balloon, and the then firing the rocket in earth orbit?

Yes, that is done but you only save a small amount unless you take the
balloon VERY high. Usually the rocket us launched THROUGH the balloon
and destroys it

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

[Michael A. Terrell]

Larry Jaques wrote:

I just need to perfect my gravimetric drive.


I thought that you were working on a 'warped' drive? ;-)


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida