An article in the Nov. 25th recent issue of the NYT, "Rust-Free Reality:
Creating an All-New Classic," talks about the growing business of supplying
low-volume steel body panels to the restoration market. I've been curious
for a long while about what they're using for dies, and what the processes
are. As most of you know, making original dies for high-volume car
manufacture costs millions of dollars for each die.

Before I start spending time on it, does anyone know the story about these
steel panels?

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote:

Before I start spending time on it, does anyone know the story about these
steel panels?


I wonder if kirksite tooling is involved.

Wes

Ed Huntress wrote:

An article in the Nov. 25th recent issue of the NYT, "Rust-Free Reality:
Creating an All-New Classic," talks about the growing business of supplying
low-volume steel body panels to the restoration market. I've been curious
for a long while about what they're using for dies, and what the processes
are. As most of you know, making original dies for high-volume car
manufacture costs millions of dollars for each die.

Before I start spending time on it, does anyone know the story about these
steel panels?

--
Ed Huntress


I know little or nothing about the industry, but I recall reading
about a fellow that was making repro tanks for old Brit bikes. He was
making his press dies out of concrete.

Dunno if something similar is being done for limited run body panels.

It would definately speed things up to have a panel to use as a
master, rather than building the die from scrtach, I'd think.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
An article in the Nov. 25th recent issue of the NYT, "Rust-Free Reality:
Creating an All-New Classic," talks about the growing business of
supplying low-volume steel body panels to the restoration market. I've
been curious for a long while about what they're using for dies, and what
the processes are. As most of you know, making original dies for
high-volume car manufacture costs millions of dollars for each die.

Before I start spending time on it, does anyone know the story about these
steel panels?

--
Ed Huntress


Some where around here, I have a copy of the ASTME collected papers from
1962.

There was an article about using steel filled epoxy for short run draw dies.
They were making the same sort of panels. They were aluminum aircraft
panels, if I recall correctly, but I imagine the state of the art has
advanced in the last 45 years.

Paul K. Dickman

Ed Huntress wrote:
An article in the Nov. 25th recent issue of the NYT, "Rust-Free Reality:
Creating an All-New Classic," talks about the growing business of supplying
low-volume steel body panels to the restoration market. I've been curious
for a long while about what they're using for dies, and what the processes
are. As most of you know, making original dies for high-volume car
manufacture costs millions of dollars for each die.

Before I start spending time on it, does anyone know the story about these
steel panels?

--
Ed Huntress


Ed,

Some of them are original dies , believe it or not . The big three are
notorious fior never throwing these things away, there is a warehouse
near me full of injection moulds that are for chryslers not made since
the mid eighties


Modern manufacturing has reduced costs for stamping dies to a fraction
of what is once was , that and the newer grades of steel that can
undergo multiple stampings without cracking or needing to be annealed

"Paul K. Dickman" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
An article in the Nov. 25th recent issue of the NYT, "Rust-Free Reality:
Creating an All-New Classic," talks about the growing business of
supplying low-volume steel body panels to the restoration market. I've
been curious for a long while about what they're using for dies, and what
the processes are. As most of you know, making original dies for
high-volume car manufacture costs millions of dollars for each die.

Before I start spending time on it, does anyone know the story about
these steel panels?

--
Ed Huntress


Some where around here, I have a copy of the ASTME collected papers from
1962.

There was an article about using steel filled epoxy for short run draw
dies. They were making the same sort of panels. They were aluminum
aircraft panels, if I recall correctly, but I imagine the state of the art
has advanced in the last 45 years.

Paul K. Dickman

They were still forming aluminum with filled-epoxy dies when I was writing
about it, around 1980. But superplastic aluminum was just coming in then and
attention shifted to the new material.

Other posters have mentioned concrete and Kirksite, both of which have been
used for steel forming that didn't require either a lot of precision or a
lot of specific force. But my feeling is there must be something better
these days, and these replacement-panel makers are using it.

We'll see. Maybe someone here has looked into the industry.

--
Ed Huntress

"c.henry" wrote in message
. ..
Ed Huntress wrote:
An article in the Nov. 25th recent issue of the NYT, "Rust-Free Reality:
Creating an All-New Classic," talks about the growing business of
supplying low-volume steel body panels to the restoration market. I've
been curious for a long while about what they're using for dies, and what
the processes are. As most of you know, making original dies for
high-volume car manufacture costs millions of dollars for each die.

Before I start spending time on it, does anyone know the story about
these steel panels?

--
Ed Huntress
Ed,

Some of them are original dies , believe it or not .

I remember the first story I read about that business, back around 1980,
when someone had acquired original dies for a mid-'50s Chevy. It sounds from
the NYT article, though, like the newer firms in the business are using
something else.

The big three are notorious fior never throwing these things away, there
is a warehouse near me full of injection moulds that are for chryslers not
made since the mid eighties


Modern manufacturing has reduced costs for stamping dies to a fraction of
what is once was , that and the newer grades of steel that can undergo
multiple stampings without cracking or needing to be annealed

All of which makes sense, but is that what they're using? Or are they using
entirely different materials? The cost of just the block of steel to make a
traditional major body-panel die is astronomical. As an extreme example, I
remember a block of steel used to make the front-end section of a Ford truck
cost $2 million and took two years to cool after it was cast -- in Sweden.
That was in 1978 or so.

The funny thing about that one is that it was planned to stamp steel, but
process changes along the way caused them to re-assign the die to forming
sheet-molding compound (SMC plastic). It still cost megabucks to machine.

--
Ed Huntress

ok, a question for the group related to this thread

I have a 36 cadillac with badly rusted hood hinges - I've cut the rivets and
have the two hinge sections sitting here - the hinge is 3 parts, a chromed
center strip that runs down the center of the hood, and two chromed (and now
badly rusted) side pieces, each rivited to one or the other side of the
hood - I want to make/buy/cause to be made these side hinge parts - they are
mostly standard sheet metal brake work, but the important part is a curl
that interlocks with the center channel (like when you curl the fingers of
your two hands together) - this curl holds the hood in place and also forms
the hinge. I have photos, measurements, etc - everyone I've talked to says
that making this is impossible, which is clearly not true since someone made
them in 1936, and in fact most cars of the mid 30s use the same design so
the equipment must be around there somewhere - so, how to make/where to get?
Oh - hinges for Fords are available, but the ford hood is about a foot
shorter (I need almost 48 inches long) so that's no good.

anyone interested in figuring this out? I can post diagrams/photos on my
web site if there is interest, then maybe someone can figure this out and I
can get these hinges done - it's only been 30 years now that I've been
puzzling about this

Ed - wanna get into the hood hinge business?


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
An article in the Nov. 25th recent issue of the NYT, "Rust-Free Reality:
Creating an All-New Classic," talks about the growing business of
supplying low-volume steel body panels to the restoration market. I've
been curious for a long while about what they're using for dies, and what
the processes are. As most of you know, making original dies for
high-volume car manufacture costs millions of dollars for each die.

Before I start spending time on it, does anyone know the story about these
steel panels?

--
Ed Huntress




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"William Noble" wrote in message
.. .
ok, a question for the group related to this thread

I have a 36 cadillac with badly rusted hood hinges - I've cut the rivets
and have the two hinge sections sitting here - the hinge is 3 parts, a
chromed center strip that runs down the center of the hood, and two
chromed (and now badly rusted) side pieces, each rivited to one or the
other side of the hood - I want to make/buy/cause to be made these side
hinge parts - they are mostly standard sheet metal brake work, but the
important part is a curl that interlocks with the center channel (like
when you curl the fingers of your two hands together) - this curl holds
the hood in place and also forms the hinge. I have photos, measurements,
etc - everyone I've talked to says that making this is impossible, which
is clearly not true since someone made them in 1936, and in fact most cars
of the mid 30s use the same design so the equipment must be around there
somewhere - so, how to make/where to get?
Oh - hinges for Fords are available, but the ford hood is about a foot
shorter (I need almost 48 inches long) so that's no good.

anyone interested in figuring this out? I can post diagrams/photos on my
web site if there is interest, then maybe someone can figure this out and
I can get these hinges done - it's only been 30 years now that I've been
puzzling about this

Ed - wanna get into the hood hinge business?

'Sounds great! We'll have to be careful to hold on to all three of our
customers, though. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 12:52:10 -0800, "William Noble"
wrote:


I can post diagrams/photos on my
web site if there is interest, then maybe someone can figure this out and I
can get these hinges done - it's only been 30 years now that I've been
puzzling about this

I'd like to see photos, pls.

On Dec 8, 1:50 pm, Trevor Jones wrote:


It would definately speed things up to have a panel to use as a
master, rather than building the die from scrtach, I'd think.

Final panels are useless for tryout. Indeed, you can't even put
finished panels are stage dies before the final operation (draw, trim
and restrike - only the final flange die will accept a completed
panel). Additionally, panels from assembled cars won't fit on any of
the dies as they have been hemmed into other panels (outer panels to
inner, and the reverse).

What they *are* useful for is scanning for reverse engineering. You
need a CAD model of the panel before you can start making the dies.

Regards,

Robin

On Dec 8, 2:08 pm, "Paul K. Dickman" wrote:

There was an article about using steel filled epoxy for short run draw dies.
They were making the same sort of panels. They were aluminum aircraft
panels, if I recall correctly, but I imagine the state of the art has
advanced in the last 45 years.

Paul K. Dickman

Epoxy dies are used for springback analysis before the hard dies are
even cast. Draw dies (first operation, just after the blank is cut
from the roll) look only roughly like the panels that come out. Lots
and lots of springback. They're trying to deal with that using FEA
now, but it's not perfect. Soft tooling is still required for really
screwball panel design.

Things are like door and hood outer panels aren't too bad. Designers
are trying to reduce the number of panels required by basically
stamping out larger panels which are more complicated. Many inner
panels have very complicated geometry, the springback of which cannot
be accurately predicted by FEA analysis. I worked on the current BMW
X5 floor pan panel. I think the previous generation vehicle used 4+
stampings, which is now just one panel. Lots of time spent on that
soft draw die.

Regards,

Robin

On Dec 8, 3:12 pm, "c.henry" wrote:

Ed,

Some of them are original dies , believe it or not . The big three are
notorious fior never throwing these things away, there is a warehouse
near me full of injection moulds that are for chryslers not made since
the mid eighties

Remember that an injection moulded part only requires one mould. A
body panel requires between four and six dies, and that doesn't
include the hemming dies for assembly. They weigh up to about 40 tons
each, and have a maximum footprint of about 3 x 5 meters, perhaps 2
meters high when in storage. Not cheap to ship either (one or two dies
per flatbed).


Modern manufacturing has reduced costs for stamping dies to a fraction
of what is once was , that and the newer grades of steel that can
undergo multiple stampings without cracking or needing to be annealed

It's about $1 to $3 million for a set of panels, that is both hands
for semetrical panels (doors, bodysides, fenders, quarter panels),
inner *or* outer panels only. Inner panels are usually cheaper because
the cosmetic work is not nearly as demanding, and they can frequently
be hit in four operations.

Regards,

Robin

On Dec 8, 3:14 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Paul K. Dickman" wrote in ...







"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
An article in the Nov. 25th recent issue of the NYT, "Rust-Free Reality:
Creating an All-New Classic," talks about the growing business of
supplying low-volume steel body panels to the restoration market. I've
been curious for a long while about what they're using for dies, and what
the processes are. As most of you know, making original dies for
high-volume car manufacture costs millions of dollars for each die.

Before I start spending time on it, does anyone know the story about
these steel panels?

--
Ed Huntress

Some where around here, I have a copy of the ASTME collected papers from
1962.

There was an article about using steel filled epoxy for short run draw
dies. They were making the same sort of panels. They were aluminum
aircraft panels, if I recall correctly, but I imagine the state of the art
has advanced in the last 45 years.

Paul K. Dickman

They were still forming aluminum with filled-epoxy dies when I was writing
about it, around 1980. But superplastic aluminum was just coming in then and
attention shifted to the new material.

Other posters have mentioned concrete and Kirksite, both of which have been
used for steel forming that didn't require either a lot of precision or a
lot of specific force. But my feeling is there must be something better
these days, and these replacement-panel makers are using it.

We'll see. Maybe someone here has looked into the industry.


I was through a prototype panel/assembly shop in Germany last year.
They were using epoxy dies (not sure of the exact composition though)
for the draw die, and the flanging at the end. I think they get about
a hundred or so hits out of the draw before it's wrecked, as I
remember.

Regards,

Robin

On Dec 8, 3:36 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:


All of which makes sense, but is that what they're using? Or are they using
entirely different materials? The cost of just the block of steel to make a
traditional major body-panel die is astronomical. As an extreme example, I
remember a block of steel used to make the front-end section of a Ford truck
cost $2 million and took two years to cool after it was cast -- in Sweden.
That was in 1978 or so.

I've never seen a panel die made of solid steel, only cast in soft
gray iron (G2500 is the automotive spec, as I remember).

The only time I've seen solid block construction was for a tube
hydroforming die. They clamp the two halves in a 6000-8000 ton
hydraulic press during the hydroforming. As I remember, the dies are
solid D2.

Regards,

Robin

Robin S. wrote:
On Dec 8, 3:36 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

All of which makes sense, but is that what they're using? Or are they using
entirely different materials? The cost of just the block of steel to make a
traditional major body-panel die is astronomical. As an extreme example, I
remember a block of steel used to make the front-end section of a Ford truck
cost $2 million and took two years to cool after it was cast -- in Sweden.
That was in 1978 or so.

I've never seen a panel die made of solid steel, only cast in soft
gray iron (G2500 is the automotive spec, as I remember).

The only time I've seen solid block construction was for a tube
hydroforming die. They clamp the two halves in a 6000-8000 ton
hydraulic press during the hydroforming. As I remember, the dies are
solid D2.

Regards,

Robin


i just finished consulting on some hydraulic problems on a large
hydroforming die that was built in piece block and had punches and
cylinders imbedded in the die , the punched all the needed holes after
the form was complete but before the die was opened. Tese were for
nissan front subframe components

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
An article in the Nov. 25th recent issue of the NYT, "Rust-Free Reality:
Creating an All-New Classic," talks about the growing business of
supplying low-volume steel body panels to the restoration market. I've
been curious for a long while about what they're using for dies, and what
the processes are. As most of you know, making original dies for
high-volume car manufacture costs millions of dollars for each die.

Before I start spending time on it, does anyone know the story about these
steel panels?

--
Ed Huntress

Leave it to the Times to be right on top of ****- some car mag reported on
this about a year ago. They use kirksite for the dies and the productions
runs will be limited to the life of one die set.

-Carl

"Robin S." wrote in message
...
On Dec 8, 3:14 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Paul K. Dickman" wrote in
...







"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
An article in the Nov. 25th recent issue of the NYT, "Rust-Free
Reality:
Creating an All-New Classic," talks about the growing business of
supplying low-volume steel body panels to the restoration market. I've
been curious for a long while about what they're using for dies, and
what
the processes are. As most of you know, making original dies for
high-volume car manufacture costs millions of dollars for each die.

Before I start spending time on it, does anyone know the story about
these steel panels?

--
Ed Huntress

Some where around here, I have a copy of the ASTME collected papers
from
1962.

There was an article about using steel filled epoxy for short run draw
dies. They were making the same sort of panels. They were aluminum
aircraft panels, if I recall correctly, but I imagine the state of the
art
has advanced in the last 45 years.

Paul K. Dickman

They were still forming aluminum with filled-epoxy dies when I was
writing
about it, around 1980. But superplastic aluminum was just coming in then
and
attention shifted to the new material.

Other posters have mentioned concrete and Kirksite, both of which have
been
used for steel forming that didn't require either a lot of precision or a
lot of specific force. But my feeling is there must be something better
these days, and these replacement-panel makers are using it.

We'll see. Maybe someone here has looked into the industry.


I was through a prototype panel/assembly shop in Germany last year.
They were using epoxy dies (not sure of the exact composition though)
for the draw die, and the flanging at the end. I think they get about
a hundred or so hits out of the draw before it's wrecked, as I
remember.

Aha. I was hoping you picked this up. So, what do you think these
restoration guys are doing? Epoxy?

--
Ed Huntress

"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
news:ALH6j.4296$k22.2325@trnddc02...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
An article in the Nov. 25th recent issue of the NYT, "Rust-Free Reality:
Creating an All-New Classic," talks about the growing business of
supplying low-volume steel body panels to the restoration market. I've
been curious for a long while about what they're using for dies, and what
the processes are. As most of you know, making original dies for
high-volume car manufacture costs millions of dollars for each die.

Before I start spending time on it, does anyone know the story about
these steel panels?

--
Ed Huntress

Leave it to the Times to be right on top of ****- some car mag reported on
this about a year ago. They use kirksite for the dies and the productions
runs will be limited to the life of one die set.

Hmm. 'Still using Kirksite, eh? I was hoping there was something new.

Thanks, Carl.

--
Ed Huntress

On Dec 9, 12:01 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

Aha. I was hoping you picked this up. So, what do you think these
restoration guys are doing? Epoxy?

To be honest I don't have any idea. Completing the tryout on a
production draw die takes thousands of man hours. I would be very
interested in seeing how these guys get their dies out at a reasonable
rate. Mind you, manually grinding a steel die is a lot different than
manually shaping an epoxy die. And I'd be fairly surprised if their
panels come out of the dies with zero (or perhaps one or two) cosmetic
defects, not to mention the dimensional defects..

One thing though, once they get the die right, it can be scanned and
reproduced on a mill/router fairly easily (if the original epoxy tool
doesn't survive panel demand).

Sorry Ed.

Regards,

Robin

"Robin S." wrote in message
...
On Dec 9, 12:01 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

Aha. I was hoping you picked this up. So, what do you think these
restoration guys are doing? Epoxy?

To be honest I don't have any idea. Completing the tryout on a
production draw die takes thousands of man hours. I would be very
interested in seeing how these guys get their dies out at a reasonable
rate. Mind you, manually grinding a steel die is a lot different than
manually shaping an epoxy die. And I'd be fairly surprised if their
panels come out of the dies with zero (or perhaps one or two) cosmetic
defects, not to mention the dimensional defects..

One thing though, once they get the die right, it can be scanned and
reproduced on a mill/router fairly easily (if the original epoxy tool
doesn't survive panel demand).

Sorry Ed.

Hey, don't be sorry. Look at this as an opportunity. d8-)

I'm really curious about it. Making a body-panel die of the right shape,
more or less, that will last through a short run, more or less, has been
done for at least 50 or 60 years, using Kirksite and epoxy. Making precision
replacement panels, especially ones that can fit together reasonably into a
complete car, like the ones described in that NYT article, is something else
again. As you mentioned, getting the springback right, and all the flanges
and so on is not the same thing as whacking out the basic shape.

I'll see what I can find out. Maybe after the holidays.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 09:47:28 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Robin S." wrote in message
...
On Dec 9, 12:01 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

Aha. I was hoping you picked this up. So, what do you think these
restoration guys are doing? Epoxy?

To be honest I don't have any idea. Completing the tryout on a
production draw die takes thousands of man hours. I would be very
interested in seeing how these guys get their dies out at a reasonable
rate. Mind you, manually grinding a steel die is a lot different than
manually shaping an epoxy die. And I'd be fairly surprised if their
panels come out of the dies with zero (or perhaps one or two) cosmetic
defects, not to mention the dimensional defects..

One thing though, once they get the die right, it can be scanned and
reproduced on a mill/router fairly easily (if the original epoxy tool
doesn't survive panel demand).

Sorry Ed.

Hey, don't be sorry. Look at this as an opportunity. d8-)

I'm really curious about it. Making a body-panel die of the right shape,
more or less, that will last through a short run, more or less, has been
done for at least 50 or 60 years, using Kirksite and epoxy. Making precision
replacement panels, especially ones that can fit together reasonably into a
complete car, like the ones described in that NYT article, is something else
again. As you mentioned, getting the springback right, and all the flanges
and so on is not the same thing as whacking out the basic shape.

I'll see what I can find out. Maybe after the holidays.


Could you use an original panel to get most of the bulk in Kirksite and then
tune the punch from there? PU for the die block.

Or even, use that as a pre-form and then wheeling machine from there...

Kirksite has the advantage that once you've done the limited run you can just
put it back in the crucible...


Mark Rand
RTFM

"Mark Rand" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 09:47:28 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Robin S." wrote in message
...
On Dec 9, 12:01 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

Aha. I was hoping you picked this up. So, what do you think these
restoration guys are doing? Epoxy?

To be honest I don't have any idea. Completing the tryout on a
production draw die takes thousands of man hours. I would be very
interested in seeing how these guys get their dies out at a reasonable
rate. Mind you, manually grinding a steel die is a lot different than
manually shaping an epoxy die. And I'd be fairly surprised if their
panels come out of the dies with zero (or perhaps one or two) cosmetic
defects, not to mention the dimensional defects..

One thing though, once they get the die right, it can be scanned and
reproduced on a mill/router fairly easily (if the original epoxy tool
doesn't survive panel demand).

Sorry Ed.

Hey, don't be sorry. Look at this as an opportunity. d8-)

I'm really curious about it. Making a body-panel die of the right shape,
more or less, that will last through a short run, more or less, has been
done for at least 50 or 60 years, using Kirksite and epoxy. Making
precision
replacement panels, especially ones that can fit together reasonably into
a
complete car, like the ones described in that NYT article, is something
else
again. As you mentioned, getting the springback right, and all the flanges
and so on is not the same thing as whacking out the basic shape.

I'll see what I can find out. Maybe after the holidays.


Could you use an original panel to get most of the bulk in Kirksite and
then
tune the punch from there? PU for the die block.

I don't know. Shrinkage of the Kirksite might be a problem. I forget its
characteristics.


Or even, use that as a pre-form and then wheeling machine from there...

Kirksite has the advantage that once you've done the limited run you can
just
put it back in the crucible...

It's been handy material for a very long time, for short-run and prototype
work.

--
Ed Huntress

On Dec 11, 7:04 pm, Mark Rand wrote:


I'll see what I can find out. Maybe after the holidays.

Could you use an original panel to get most of the bulk in Kirksite and then
tune the punch from there? PU for the die block.

One method for low production (but still production) draw dies is
sheet hydroforming. The female die cavity is the master form, and
fluid is used instead of a punch. Slower than hard draw dies
(something like 1-2min/draw, instead of 5sec or so) but mucho cheaper
I'm sure. Many of the panels on the Pontiac Solstice are made this
way, IIRC.

First hit on Google: http://fyi.gmblogs.com/2006/06/how_t...ice_and_s.html


Or even, use that as a pre-form and then wheeling machine from there...

I'm sure there is a fair amount of rework required after the initail
draw. Many style lines are either not in the draw, or the rad is much
larger than the finished panel because such tight rads are impossible
on the first operation (panel tears instead of flowing over the rads).
**Perhaps this doesn't apply if they're using hydroforming...

It will certainly be interesting to see what Ed digs up. This is
entirely another world for me.

Regards,

Robin

"Robin S." wrote in message
...
On Dec 11, 7:04 pm, Mark Rand wrote:


I'll see what I can find out. Maybe after the holidays.

Could you use an original panel to get most of the bulk in Kirksite and
then
tune the punch from there? PU for the die block.

One method for low production (but still production) draw dies is
sheet hydroforming. The female die cavity is the master form, and
fluid is used instead of a punch. Slower than hard draw dies
(something like 1-2min/draw, instead of 5sec or so) but mucho cheaper
I'm sure. Many of the panels on the Pontiac Solstice are made this
way, IIRC.

First hit on Google:
http://fyi.gmblogs.com/2006/06/how_t...ice_and_s.html


Or even, use that as a pre-form and then wheeling machine from there...

I'm sure there is a fair amount of rework required after the initail
draw. Many style lines are either not in the draw, or the rad is much
larger than the finished panel because such tight rads are impossible
on the first operation (panel tears instead of flowing over the rads).
**Perhaps this doesn't apply if they're using hydroforming...

That's why they hydroform the Solstice panels. They're too extreme for
conventional closed-die stamping.


It will certainly be interesting to see what Ed digs up. This is
entirely another world for me.

Be patient. I have several jobs in the queue, and this smells like a job for
which it might be hard to get people to talk.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:

Aha. I was hoping you picked this up. So, what do you think these
restoration guys are doing? Epoxy?

I could name you a product. But then with your OT, I don't think I can
justify the 5 minutes to walk through my linklist. You've already wasted
enough of my time.


Nick
--
The lowcost-DRO:
http://www.yadro.de

"Nick Mueller" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

Aha. I was hoping you picked this up. So, what do you think these
restoration guys are doing? Epoxy?

I could name you a product. But then with your OT, I don't think I can
justify the 5 minutes to walk through my linklist. You've already wasted
enough of my time.


Nick

If you're worried about your time, why did you bother to type a message?

I think you mostly wast your own time, Nick. And if you aren't even going to
tell us about the product you're thinking of, you're now wasting ours.

--
Ed Huntress

On Dec 9, 9:47 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
... Making precision
replacement panels, especially ones that can fit together reasonably into a
complete car, like the ones described in that NYT article, is something else
again. As you mentioned, getting the springback right, and all the flanges
and so on is not the same thing as whacking out the basic shape....
Ed Huntress

I've only installed one of these, the radiator support (entire front
cross panel) for a Ranger.
It fit OK but not perfectly and had some wrinkling. I got the
impression that Veng's supplier had used an original for a model and
ignored springback.

These parts are installed one at a time by people with the skill and
tools to make them fit, often on vehicles with other damage (mine had
rusted out), so maybe it doesn't matter if they aren't made to factory
precision.

Jim Wilkins

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Dec 9, 9:47 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
... Making precision
replacement panels, especially ones that can fit together reasonably into
a
complete car, like the ones described in that NYT article, is something
else
again. As you mentioned, getting the springback right, and all the
flanges
and so on is not the same thing as whacking out the basic shape....
Ed Huntress

I've only installed one of these, the radiator support (entire front
cross panel) for a Ranger.
It fit OK but not perfectly and had some wrinkling. I got the
impression that Veng's supplier had used an original for a model and
ignored springback.

These parts are installed one at a time by people with the skill and
tools to make them fit, often on vehicles with other damage (mine had
rusted out), so maybe it doesn't matter if they aren't made to factory
precision.

Jim Wilkins

That's what I would expect, and what I'm wondering about. As Robin knows
well, making those panels to production accuracy is one hell of a difficult
job, even with today's FEA tools and so on. Doing it in the aftermarket,
which has to be a small market to begin with, is almost beyond my belief.

I hope I get a chance to look into it further.

--
Ed Huntress

On Dec 17, 6:39 am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Dec 9, 9:47 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

... Making precision
replacement panels, especially ones that can fit together reasonably into a
complete car, like the ones described in that NYT article, is something else
again. As you mentioned, getting the springback right, and all the flanges
and so on is not the same thing as whacking out the basic shape....
Ed Huntress

I've only installed one of these, the radiator support (entire front
cross panel) for a Ranger.
It fit OK but not perfectly and had some wrinkling. I got the
impression that Veng's supplier had used an original for a model and
ignored springback.

You wouldn't be able to assemble the panels if the draw die had the
same geometry as the finished panel. In hard dies it's *impossible* to
ignore springback. It may be less of an issue with hydroforming dies,
but I don't think it's non-existant.

I've seen surfaces of dies recut by 10-25mm because the designers
misapproximated springback (it takes *days* just to weld up 10mm of a
die surface - let alone all the 3d machining, and then the weeks of
tryout inside the presses afterwards).

Regards,

Robin

On Dec 17, 10:42 pm, "Robin S." wrote:
On Dec 17, 6:39 am, Jim Wilkins wrote:

On Dec 9, 9:47 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

... Making precision
replacement panels, especially ones that can fit together reasonably into a
complete car, like the ones described in that NYT article, is something else
again. As you mentioned, getting the springback right, and all the flanges
and so on is not the same thing as whacking out the basic shape....
Ed Huntress

I've only installed one of these, the radiator support (entire front
cross panel) for a Ranger.
It fit OK but not perfectly and had some wrinkling. I got the
impression that Veng's supplier had used an original for a model and
ignored springback.

You wouldn't be able to assemble the panels if the draw die had the
same geometry as the finished panel. In hard dies it's *impossible* to
ignore springback.....
(it takes *days* just to weld up 10mm of a
die surface -
Robin

It takes seconds to reshape the flange with a dolly and rubber hammer.
I had to pull the joints together with clamps and sheet metal screws
before welding. The radiator and other mounts have oversized holes and
the brackets were easy to bend with duckbill pliers.

I've done a lot more body work than this one piece, usually small-area
rust repair, and I make a patch that matches the curves, MIG it in
with a butt joint and hammer the area to shape. I haven't had much
luck with Bondo in rust-prone areas but except for fender flares they
usually are down low or within the wheel well and the curves don't
have to be perfect.

The junction of the wheel well and the strut tower was quite a project
to duplicate and it had to be waterproof.

Jim Wilkins