Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Followup on wire brushing, hopefully final

I bought a 115v, 1 HP, 3450 RPM Baldor motor on eBay, in 56T frame,
and mounted the brush on it. Also wired nicely, with a proper switch,
in electrical box, etc. The motor is TEAO (totally enclosed air over),
but I usually brush things for a very short time, also, the motor has
a thermal reset. Worst case, for continuous wire brushing, I could use
an external fan to just blow air on it. So I am not too worried about
overheating.

With this motor, the 8" brush functions much better than with a 1725
RPM, 1/2 HP motor.

I hope that this setup will last me a while.

Thanks to Tom for steering me in the right direction.

i
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Default Followup on wire brushing, hopefully final

Ignoramus5639 wrote:
I bought a 115v, 1 HP, 3450 RPM Baldor motor on eBay, in 56T frame,
and mounted the brush on it. Also wired nicely, with a proper switch,
in electrical box, etc. The motor is TEAO (totally enclosed air over),
but I usually brush things for a very short time, also, the motor has
a thermal reset. Worst case, for continuous wire brushing, I could use
an external fan to just blow air on it. So I am not too worried about
overheating.

With this motor, the 8" brush functions much better than with a 1725
RPM, 1/2 HP motor.

I hope that this setup will last me a while.

Thanks to Tom for steering me in the right direction.

i


Today I wanted lunch so I went out to eat. I drank three cups of coffee. I
even used a spoon to stir it with. I hope it was a sturdy spoon, because
it did not break when I used it.

I am very proud of myself. I even tied my shoelaces today. I did not trip
and fall, so I think I did a good job. How you suggest I tie my shoes?
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On 2007-12-02, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Today I wanted lunch so I went out to eat. I drank three cups of coffee. I
even used a spoon to stir it with. I hope it was a sturdy spoon, because
it did not break when I used it.

I am very proud of myself. I even tied my shoelaces today. I did not trip
and fall, so I think I did a good job. How you suggest I tie my shoes?


Tie them to your balls, and then try to jump really high.

i
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Default Followup on wire brushing, hopefully final

"kill-file"

Plunk!

"Cydrome Leader" wrote in message
...
Ignoramus5639 wrote:
I bought a 115v, 1 HP, 3450 RPM Baldor motor on eBay, in 56T frame,
and mounted the brush on it. Also wired nicely, with a proper switch,
in electrical box, etc. The motor is TEAO (totally enclosed air over),
but I usually brush things for a very short time, also, the motor has
a thermal reset. Worst case, for continuous wire brushing, I could use
an external fan to just blow air on it. So I am not too worried about
overheating.

With this motor, the 8" brush functions much better than with a 1725
RPM, 1/2 HP motor.

I hope that this setup will last me a while.

Thanks to Tom for steering me in the right direction.

i


Today I wanted lunch so I went out to eat. I drank three cups of coffee. I
even used a spoon to stir it with. I hope it was a sturdy spoon, because
it did not break when I used it.

I am very proud of myself. I even tied my shoelaces today. I did not trip
and fall, so I think I did a good job. How you suggest I tie my shoes?



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Default Followup on wire brushing, hopefully final


"Al" wrote in message
news
"kill-file"

Plunk!


Likely a good idea. To allow such comments to stand unchallenged is
performing a disservice to the readers of this forum.

Iggie's post is a great example of the benefits of running tools at the
appropriate surface speed. For the uninitiated, it contains very useful
information and doesn't warrant the ridicule of anyone. If some find it a
bit elementary, please keep in mind that many turn to this forum for good
and useful information----so anything that can't be construed as
misinformation should be welcomed with open arms.

Harold




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Default Followup on wire brushing, hopefully final

On 2007-12-03, Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

Iggie's post is a great example of the benefits of running tools at the
appropriate surface speed. For the uninitiated, it contains very useful
information and doesn't warrant the ridicule of anyone. If some find it a
bit elementary, please keep in mind that many turn to this forum for good
and useful information----so anything that can't be construed as
misinformation should be welcomed with open arms.


There was definitely a difference between how the strands would strike
the material, between 1/2 HP 1725 RPM and 1 HP 3450 RPM. It works
markedly better. It is also nice to notice that this McMaster brush,
does not seem to lose strands.

i
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Default Followup on wire brushing, hopefully final

On Dec 2, 9:04 pm, Ignoramus5639
wrote:
On 2007-12-03, Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:



Iggie's post is a great example of the benefits of running tools at the
appropriate surface speed. For the uninitiated, it contains very useful
information and doesn't warrant the ridicule of anyone. If some find it a
bit elementary, please keep in mind that many turn to this forum for good
and useful information----so anything that can't be construed as
misinformation should be welcomed with open arms.


There was definitely a difference between how the strands would strike
the material, between 1/2 HP 1725 RPM and 1 HP 3450 RPM. It works
markedly better. It is also nice to notice that this McMaster brush,
does not seem to lose strands.

i


Ig,
good deal.
Faster SFM gets work done easier, the wires are slung out better and
bent less
making breaks offs less frequent.
Another tip on the wire wheel.
To restore its like new sharpness when you need more bite, hold your
grinding
wheel trueing rock against it.
For a scary sharp bite, do as above, remove the wheel, flip over and
reinstall.
This has real ouch factor. Be careful.
Has your hand held wire brush lost its cut? Sharpen it on the belt
sander.
Hold wires at right angles to the belt. Better than new.
RichD, Atlanta
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"Ignoramus5639" wrote in message
...
I bought a 115v, 1 HP, 3450 RPM Baldor motor on eBay, in 56T frame,
and mounted the brush on it. Also wired nicely, with a proper switch,
in electrical box, etc. The motor is TEAO (totally enclosed air over),
but I usually brush things for a very short time, also, the motor has
a thermal reset. Worst case, for continuous wire brushing, I could use
an external fan to just blow air on it. So I am not too worried about
overheating.

With this motor, the 8" brush functions much better than with a 1725
RPM, 1/2 HP motor.

I hope that this setup will last me a while.

Thanks to Tom for steering me in the right direction.

i


Youbetcha!


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Default Followup on wire brushing, hopefully final

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

Iggie's Â*post is a great example of the benefits of Â*running tools at the
appropriate surface speed. Â* For the uninitiated, it contains very useful
information and doesn't warrant the ridicule of anyone.


Yes? Really? Usefull? And how do I calculate the surface speed? Do I need
the diameter of the brush?
It was just another of those empty Iggy-postings. Nothing, *absolutely*
nothing to learn from.

Nick
--
The lowcost-DRO:
http://www.yadro.de
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"Nick Mueller" wrote in message
...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

Iggie's post is a great example of the benefits of running tools at the
appropriate surface speed. For the uninitiated, it contains very useful
information and doesn't warrant the ridicule of anyone.


Yes? Really? Usefull? And how do I calculate the surface speed? Do I need
the diameter of the brush?


Only if you can't understand clearly stated information.

It was just another of those empty Iggy-postings. Nothing, *absolutely*
nothing to learn from.

Nick
--
The lowcost-DRO:
http://www.yadro.de



Nick, f'chrisakes------it was on topic (unlike your complaint)----You want a
little cheese to go with that whine?

Maybe you're not wise enough to get the point of his post, but don't judge
the rest of us by your lack of understanding.

Harold




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Default Followup on wire brushing, hopefully final

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

Nick, f'chrisakes------it was on topic (unlike your complaint)----You want
a little cheese to go with that whine?


Did I complain about it being OT?
And what is OT when I state that the "information" given was absolutely
worthless? If he would have stated that he used a wire brush with diameter
X and material Y (steel, stainless, brass, ...) and RPM Z to brush material
A that would have been something different. He's a no-brainer, so this
postings are brainless.
He just wanted one more post in this NG, and nothing more. The end of the
year is coming, and he maybe needs some more points for the troll-award.


Nick
--
The lowcost-DRO:
http://www.yadro.de
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"Nick Mueller" wrote in message
...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

Iggie's post is a great example of the benefits of running tools at the
appropriate surface speed. For the uninitiated, it contains very useful
information and doesn't warrant the ridicule of anyone.


Yes? Really? Usefull? And how do I calculate the surface speed? Do I need
the diameter of the brush?
It was just another of those empty Iggy-postings. Nothing, *absolutely*
nothing to learn from.

Nick
--
The lowcost-DRO:
http://www.yadro.de


You can't calculate surface-feet/minute? One thing learned from I's post is
to listen to Tommy about brushes! There ARE better experts in the world,
about six of them.


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Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"Nick Mueller" wrote in message
...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

Iggie's post is a great example of the benefits of running tools at the
appropriate surface speed. For the uninitiated, it contains very useful
information and doesn't warrant the ridicule of anyone.


Yes? Really? Usefull? And how do I calculate the surface speed? Do I need
the diameter of the brush?


Only if you can't understand clearly stated information.

It was just another of those empty Iggy-postings. Nothing, *absolutely*
nothing to learn from.

Nick
--
The belowcost-DRO:
http://www.crap.de


Nick, f'chrisakes------it was on topic (unlike your complaint)----You want a
little cheese to go with that whine?



Nick is just another usless 'whine know'!


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
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Tom Gardner wrote:

(snip)
You can't calculate surface-feet/minute? One thing learned from I's post is
to listen to Tommy about brushes! There ARE better experts in the world,
about six of them.


So, what do you reckon he would say would be a good hand brush for
scraping off scale and semi-molten sodium tetraborate off of 1500F-2400F
iron bars about 1 inch square? Looking for effective and durable.
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Tom Gardner wrote:

One thing learned from I's post is to listen to Tommy about brushes!


I knew that before. :-)


Nick
--
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http://www.yadro.de


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"Nick Mueller" wrote in message
...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

Nick, f'chrisakes------it was on topic (unlike your complaint)----You
want
a little cheese to go with that whine?


Did I complain about it being OT?


No---nor did I imply that you did----I simply stated that his post was on
topic, and implied it *was worthy of mention*.

And what is OT when I state that the "information" given was absolutely
worthless? If he would have stated that he used a wire brush with diameter
X and material Y (steel, stainless, brass, ...) and RPM Z to brush
material
A that would have been something different. He's a no-brainer, so this
postings are brainless.


I beg to differ. Having run precision grinding machines for several
years, I understand the significance of surface speeds. His post clearly
states a doubling of RPM's----an increase of surface speed, with better
results. While there was no mention of the exact velocity, the concept of
increasing surface speed (within safe limits) drives home the point that it
is, indeed, important. I can't help but feel that at least one person
gained something in the way of knowledge from his post.

He just wanted one more post in this NG, and nothing more. The end of the
year is coming, and he maybe needs some more points for the troll-award.


I'm absolutely amazed at how you can know that, Nick. I really am.

Now put your whine away and lets get back to discussing things of
importance. Your complaint isn't one of them.

Harold


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Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

Having run precision grinding machines for several
years, I understand the significance of surface speeds.


I know that. And you certainly know, that there is a band/frame (?) of
perfect speed.
So the statement "I doubled the speed and it's better now" is quite ...
brainless. Especially without giving the wheel's diameter.

With some brain attached, the question/statement might have been: "I now do
have X fpm. and it is getting better. Tom G. could you advice me of the
right fpm?". But I wouldn't expect such a question.

I'm absolutely amazed at how you can know that, Nick. Â*I really am.


Missed the maybe?

Now put your whine away ...


Whine? I'm only getting tears of laughter by reading Iggiot's postings.


Nick
--
The lowcost-DRO:
http://www.yadro.de
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"Nick Mueller" wrote in message
...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

Having run precision grinding machines for several
years, I understand the significance of surface speeds.


I know that. And you certainly know, that there is a band/frame (?) of
perfect speed.
So the statement "I doubled the speed and it's better now" is quite ...
brainless. Especially without giving the wheel's diameter.


But *he_did*--------"With this motor, the 8" brush functions much better
than with a 1725
RPM, 1/2 HP motor. " He also commented "1 HP, 3450 RPM Baldor motor", so
it's clear to those of us that use English as a first language that he had
moved up from a fractional horse power motor, a slow one (1725 RPM) to a
full horse power, and faster, 3,450 RPM.


With some brain attached, the question/statement might have been: "I now
do
have X fpm. and it is getting better. Tom G. could you advice me of the
right fpm?". But I wouldn't expect such a question.

I'm absolutely amazed at how you can know that, Nick. I really am.


Missed the maybe?

Now put your whine away ...


Whine? I'm only getting tears of laughter by reading Iggiot's postings.


That's a cheap shot, Nick. Shame on you. Iggie's a damned decent
individual.

I know it's hard for you, but try to be nice. Better yet, try to be
polite. All of us have shortcomings---I certainly have my own. If you'd
like others to accept you with your warts, it's incumbent upon you to return
the favor.

Harold


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"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
t...

"Nick Mueller" wrote in message
...
Tom Gardner wrote:

One thing learned from I's post is to listen to Tommy about brushes!


I knew that before. :-)


Nick
--
The lowcost-DRO:
http://www.yadro.de


If only I was as good with wimen!


Kinky!!
Personally, I prefer wOmen. :-)

Harold


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"Todd Rich" wrote in message
...
Tom Gardner wrote:

(snip)
You can't calculate surface-feet/minute? One thing learned from I's post
is
to listen to Tommy about brushes! There ARE better experts in the world,
about six of them.


So, what do you reckon he would say would be a good hand brush for
scraping off scale and semi-molten sodium tetraborate off of 1500F-2400F
iron bars about 1 inch square? Looking for effective and durable.


..020" Inconel 690 wire in a stainless steel #7 channel strip brush. Bend it
to any shape you want and screw it on a length of SS pipe. Brush part will
be about $200/foot. Lead time 8 weeks ARO.




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"Nick Mueller" wrote in message
...
Tom Gardner wrote:

One thing learned from I's post is to listen to Tommy about brushes!


I knew that before. :-)


Nick
--
The lowcost-DRO:
http://www.yadro.de


If only I was as good with wimen!


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"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. net...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
t...

"Nick Mueller" wrote in message
...
Tom Gardner wrote:

One thing learned from I's post is to listen to Tommy about brushes!

I knew that before. :-)


Nick
--
The lowcost-DRO:
http://www.yadro.de


If only I was as good with wimen!


Kinky!!
Personally, I prefer wOmen. :-)

Harold



I don't always settle on HUMAN!


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Default Followup on wire brushing, hopefully final


"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
. net...

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. net...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
t...

"Nick Mueller" wrote in message
...
Tom Gardner wrote:

One thing learned from I's post is to listen to Tommy about brushes!

I knew that before. :-)


Nick
--
The lowcost-DRO:
http://www.yadro.de

If only I was as good with wimen!


Kinky!!
Personally, I prefer wOmen. :-)

Harold



I don't always settle on HUMAN!


Well, alright, then! :-)

H


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Tom Gardner wrote:

If only I was as good with wimen!



It must be that cross dressing thing, Tom! ;-)


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
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Default Followup on wire brushing, hopefully final

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

But *he_did*--------"With this motor, the 8" brush functions much better
than with a 1725 RPM, 1/2 HP motor. "


OH ****! I missed the 8".
Now I really have to beg Iggy's pardon!


Shame on me, shutting up!
Nick
--
The lowcost-DRO:
http://www.yadro.de


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Tom Gardner wrote:

"Todd Rich" wrote in message

(snip)
So, what do you reckon he would say would be a good hand brush for
scraping off scale and semi-molten sodium tetraborate off of 1500F-2400F
iron bars about 1 inch square? Looking for effective and durable.


.020" Inconel 690 wire in a stainless steel #7 channel strip brush. Bend it
to any shape you want and screw it on a length of SS pipe. Brush part will
be about $200/foot. Lead time 8 weeks ARO.


Spendy, but looking at what it is made out of, not that surprising. I was
originally thinking of switching over to the flat bristle type butcher
block brush, as that seems to be what a lot of blacksmiths like, and it
doesn't melt like the cheapie iron wire brushes I'd been getting.

But I did ask an expert for their advice, and it sounds like it will last!
I'll probably be ready to order it in Feb. I'll save this post and call
in an order then.

Thanks!

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On 2007-12-03, Tom Gardner wrote:

"Nick Mueller" wrote in message
...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

Iggie's post is a great example of the benefits of running tools at the
appropriate surface speed. For the uninitiated, it contains very useful
information and doesn't warrant the ridicule of anyone.


Yes? Really? Usefull? And how do I calculate the surface speed? Do I need
the diameter of the brush?
It was just another of those empty Iggy-postings. Nothing, *absolutely*
nothing to learn from.

Nick


You can't calculate surface-feet/minute? One thing learned from I's post is
to listen to Tommy about brushes! There ARE better experts in the world,
about six of them.



Nick could calculate the surface speed by multiplying diameter of the
wheel by revolutions per second, and by pi. The diameter of the brush
was given (8 inches).

i
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Harold, I appreciate your post. Thank you.

By the way, the brush itself acts as a very effective centrifuge for
air, in the sense that it throws a lot of it off, radially. So, adding
some clever shrouding around it, would probably move enough air to
cool this TEAO (totally enclosed, air over cooled) motor enough to run
continuously.

i
But *he_did*--------"With this motor, the 8" brush functions much better
than with a 1725
RPM, 1/2 HP motor. " He also commented "1 HP, 3450 RPM Baldor motor", so
it's clear to those of us that use English as a first language that he had
moved up from a fractional horse power motor, a slow one (1725 RPM) to a
full horse power, and faster, 3,450 RPM.


With some brain attached, the question/statement might have been: "I now
do
have X fpm. and it is getting better. Tom G. could you advice me of the
right fpm?". But I wouldn't expect such a question.

I'm absolutely amazed at how you can know that, Nick. I really am.


Missed the maybe?

Now put your whine away ...


Whine? I'm only getting tears of laughter by reading Iggiot's postings.


That's a cheap shot, Nick. Shame on you. Iggie's a damned decent
individual.

I know it's hard for you, but try to be nice. Better yet, try to be
polite. All of us have shortcomings---I certainly have my own. If you'd
like others to accept you with your warts, it's incumbent upon you to return
the favor.

Harold


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"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
Tom Gardner wrote:

If only I was as good with wimen!



It must be that cross dressing thing, Tom! ;-)



Hey, I AM a lesbian!


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"Todd Rich" wrote in message
...
Tom Gardner wrote:

"Todd Rich" wrote in message

(snip)
So, what do you reckon he would say would be a good hand brush for
scraping off scale and semi-molten sodium tetraborate off of
1500F-2400F
iron bars about 1 inch square? Looking for effective and durable.


.020" Inconel 690 wire in a stainless steel #7 channel strip brush. Bend
it
to any shape you want and screw it on a length of SS pipe. Brush part
will
be about $200/foot. Lead time 8 weeks ARO.


Spendy, but looking at what it is made out of, not that surprising. I was
originally thinking of switching over to the flat bristle type butcher
block brush, as that seems to be what a lot of blacksmiths like, and it
doesn't melt like the cheapie iron wire brushes I'd been getting.

But I did ask an expert for their advice, and it sounds like it will last!
I'll probably be ready to order it in Feb. I'll save this post and call
in an order then.

Thanks!


Well, for the same cost you can buy about 50 of the butcher blocks. And,
I'd probably make more $.




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Ignoramus12447 wrote:
Harold, I appreciate your post. Thank you.

By the way, the brush itself acts as a very effective centrifuge for
air, in the sense that it throws a lot of it off, radially. So, adding
some clever shrouding around it, would probably move enough air to
cool this TEAO (totally enclosed, air over cooled) motor enough to run
continuously.


It's Very Clever to blow **** off a wire brush all over a motor!
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Ignoramus5639 wrote:
On 2007-12-02, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Today I wanted lunch so I went out to eat. I drank three cups of coffee. I
even used a spoon to stir it with. I hope it was a sturdy spoon, because
it did not break when I used it.

I am very proud of myself. I even tied my shoelaces today. I did not trip
and fall, so I think I did a good job. How you suggest I tie my shoes?


Tie them to your balls, and then try to jump really high.


It sounds like another of the techniques you came up with.
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On 2007-12-05, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Ignoramus12447 wrote:
Harold, I appreciate your post. Thank you.

By the way, the brush itself acts as a very effective centrifuge for
air, in the sense that it throws a lot of it off, radially. So, adding
some clever shrouding around it, would probably move enough air to
cool this TEAO (totally enclosed, air over cooled) motor enough to run
continuously.


It's Very Clever to blow **** off a wire brush all over a motor!


If you were smart enough to think about it, you would have realized
that the brush would pull clean air, draw it around the motor body,
and then expel it radially. If you have a furnace where you live, try
looking in there to see if you can find a centrifugal fan. That's the
principle.

The opposite action that you alluded to, is more or less impossible,
without doing very weird shrouding. So, try to think again, if you are
smart enough, you will realize the stupidity of your comment.

As an icing on the cake, regarding just how dumb your comment was,
the motor is "totally enclosed", which means that it was made
purposely for dirty conditions.

So, it seems that today was not your best day.

i
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On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:02:39 -0600, Ignoramus12447
wrote:

On 2007-12-05, Cydrome Leader wrote:



So, it seems that today was not your best day.

i

It seems that a lot of self styled "Leader"s tend to rev up their
mouths while their brains are in neutral.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
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On 2007-12-05, Gerald Miller wrote:
On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:02:39 -0600, Ignoramus12447
wrote:

On 2007-12-05, Cydrome Leader wrote:



So, it seems that today was not your best day.

i

It seems that a lot of self styled "Leader"s tend to rev up their
mouths while their brains are in neutral.


Maybe "Leader" could make his own wire brushing setup and learn
something basic.

i


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Ignoramus5639 wrote:

It is also nice to notice that this McMaster brush,
does not seem to lose strands.


Those tend to hurt. Had a china wheel toss a spear into my eye by surfing a
strand off my cheek and under my glasses.

Wes
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On 2007-12-06, Wes wrote:
Ignoramus5639 wrote:

It is also nice to notice that this McMaster brush,
does not seem to lose strands.


Those tend to hurt. Had a china wheel toss a spear into my eye by surfing a
strand off my cheek and under my glasses.

Wes


My previous China wheel, did that a lot as well. I religiously wear
protective glasses when I do any kind of wire brushing. But a while
ago, one hurt my cheek, it was mildly unpleasant. What happened, did
you need medical treatment after that? It must have hurt.

i

i
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Wes wrote:
Those tend to hurt. Had a china wheel toss a spear into my eye by surfing a
strand off my cheek and under my glasses.


Ignoramus14162 wrote:
My previous China wheel, did that a lot as well. I religiously wear
protective glasses when I do any kind of wire brushing. But a while
ago, one hurt my cheek, it was mildly unpleasant. What happened, did
you need medical treatment after that? It must have hurt.


Sounds like the full face shield might be a good idea when wirebrushing,
eh?

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
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On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 22:39:22 GMT, Ecnerwal
wrote:



Wes wrote:
Those tend to hurt. Had a china wheel toss a spear into my eye by surfing a
strand off my cheek and under my glasses.


Ignoramus14162 wrote:
My previous China wheel, did that a lot as well. I religiously wear
protective glasses when I do any kind of wire brushing. But a while
ago, one hurt my cheek, it was mildly unpleasant. What happened, did
you need medical treatment after that? It must have hurt.


Sounds like the full face shield might be a good idea when wirebrushing,
eh?

YUP!
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
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Ignoramus14162 wrote:

What happened, did
you need medical treatment after that? It must have hurt.


I went over to the doc's and he pulled it out of the white, gave me
antibiotics, and I wore a patch for a day or so.

Loading parts in the press I was running was a biatch that afternoon, 4ft
long stips with a locator at the far end I had to hit with no depth
perception.

Wes
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