[William Wixon]

hey, i have another question if anyone would like to reply. i posted "OT
commutator wear" on 6/24/07, finally got around to working on this inverter
again. removed the armature (to bring to a electric motor shop) to get the
slip rings smoothed out and saw these (two, one on each end) blobs of what i
assume is JB weld on the windings. my first thought was one of the previous
owners put them on there to disguise damage or to cover up a jerryrig repair
job (is it possible to solder broken armature wires?). my second thought
was maybe they were applied at the factory to balance the amature. i have
no idea. asking you guys.

http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/armature1.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/armature2.jpg

i was taking this inspection/repair job one step at a time, was reading the
service manual, procedure for disassembly, one of the steps was to
"...remove printed circuit board..." i was poking and prodding, "...printed
circuit board, printed CIRCUIT BOARD...." finally it dawned on me there
was NO printed circuit board. (one of the) previous owner removed the
printed circuit board and simply crimped together the wires that went to it.
THAT was a very depressing discovery/realization. BUM-MER. replacement
printed circuit board goes for like $230 but they told me it's an older
model and i'll have to get the "conversion kit" that goes for $430, fukkin'
bummer.

thanks for all your previous replies and thanks in advance for any info
y'all would like to impart.

b.w.

[Wes[_2_]]

"William Wixon" wrote:

hey, i have another question if anyone would like to reply. i posted "OT
commutator wear" on 6/24/07, finally got around to working on this inverter
again. removed the armature (to bring to a electric motor shop) to get the
slip rings smoothed out and saw these (two, one on each end) blobs of what i
assume is JB weld on the windings. my first thought was one of the previous
owners put them on there to disguise damage or to cover up a jerryrig repair
job (is it possible to solder broken armature wires?). my second thought
was maybe they were applied at the factory to balance the amature. i have
no idea. asking you guys.

[snip]

My bet is that it was used to balance. I would think that if someone
repaired the winding (which does happen) that person would have minimized
the size of the blob.


I am apprized to see a commutator in a RPC though.

Wes

[Robert Swinney]

"Wes" wrote in message ...
"William Wixon" wrote:

hey, i have another question if anyone would like to reply. i posted "OT
commutator wear" on 6/24/07, finally got around to working on this inverter
again. removed the armature (to bring to a electric motor shop) to get the
slip rings smoothed out and saw these (two, one on each end) blobs of what i
assume is JB weld on the windings. my first thought was one of the previous
owners put them on there to disguise damage or to cover up a jerryrig repair
job (is it possible to solder broken armature wires?). my second thought
was maybe they were applied at the factory to balance the amature. i have
no idea. asking you guys.

[snip]

My bet is that it was used to balance. I would think that if someone
repaired the winding (which does happen) that person would have minimized
the size of the blob.


I am apprized to see a commutator in a RPC though.

Wes

[Robert Swinney]

Sorry - the double post gremlin stepped in.

What Wes, said, the blobs are probably for balance. My WAG is the rotor is out of a wound rotor
induction motor. If this be the case, you didn't get all of it from the ebay seller. There should
be some resistors and a short circuiting switch connected to the brushes that ride on the
commutator-looking thingies. IMO, you would do well to abandon the idea of making a RPC out of
this.

Bob Swinney

[William Wixon]

not making a RPC, maybe i used the wrong word, it's a 1600 watt "Redi-Line"
inverter, i got the rest of it.

http://www.rediline.com/

so, wow, you think they're for balance too. huh.


b.w.



"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
...
Sorry - the double post gremlin stepped in.

What Wes, said, the blobs are probably for balance. My WAG is the rotor
is out of a wound rotor
induction motor. If this be the case, you didn't get all of it from the
ebay seller. There should
be some resistors and a short circuiting switch connected to the brushes
that ride on the
commutator-looking thingies. IMO, you would do well to abandon the idea
of making a RPC out of
this.

Bob Swinney

[Carla Fong]

RediLine makes motor-generators (more accurately 'motor-alternators')
for converting automotive DC (12 - 24 volt) to AC for powering tools,
etc. - so what you have is a DC motor coupled to an AC alternator in one
package.

These used to be very popular with mobile locksmiths and similar trades
for powering 120 VAC machinery in a vehicle.

'Inverter' is generally construed to mean 'electronic DC-AC converter'
using solid state widgets.

These motor-generators (IMHO) are superior to inverters for motor loads
- they tolerate a lot more starting overcurrent without releasing the smoke.

Carla


William Wixon wrote:

not making a RPC, maybe i used the wrong word, it's a 1600 watt "Redi-Line"
inverter, i got the rest of it.

http://www.rediline.com/

so, wow, you think they're for balance too. huh.


b.w.

[William Wixon]

"Carla Fong" wrote in message
...

RediLine makes motor-generators (more accurately 'motor-alternators') for
converting automotive DC (12 - 24 volt) to AC for powering tools, etc. -
so what you have is a DC motor coupled to an AC alternator in one package.

These used to be very popular with mobile locksmiths and similar trades
for powering 120 VAC machinery in a vehicle.

'Inverter' is generally construed to mean 'electronic DC-AC converter'
using solid state widgets.

These motor-generators (IMHO) are superior to inverters for motor loads -
they tolerate a lot more starting overcurrent without releasing the smoke.

Carla



thanks Carla,
i was specifically wondering about the blobs of JB weld on the armature in
the photos.

http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/armature1.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/armature2.jpg

b.w.

[[email protected]]

On Jul 21, 11:08 pm, "William Wixon" wrote:
hey, i have another question if anyone would like to reply. i posted "OT
commutator wear" on 6/24/07, finally got around to working on this inverter
again. removed the armature (to bring to a electric motor shop) to get the
slip rings smoothed out and saw these (two, one on each end) blobs of what i
assume is JB weld on the windings. my first thought was one of the previous
owners put them on there to disguise damage or to cover up a jerryrig repair
job (is it possible to solder broken armature wires?). my second thought
was maybe they were applied at the factory to balance the amature. i have
no idea. asking you guys.

http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/a.../armature2.jpg

i was taking this inspection/repair job one step at a time, was reading the
service manual, procedure for disassembly, one of the steps was to
"...remove printed circuit board..." i was poking and prodding, "...printed
circuit board, printed CIRCUIT BOARD...." finally it dawned on me there
was NO printed circuit board. (one of the) previous owner removed the
printed circuit board and simply crimped together the wires that went to it.
THAT was a very depressing discovery/realization. BUM-MER. replacement
printed circuit board goes for like $230 but they told me it's an older
model and i'll have to get the "conversion kit" that goes for $430, fukkin'
bummer.

thanks for all your previous replies and thanks in advance for any info
y'all would like to impart.

b.w.

Don't know what those blobs are. All the armatures I've seen balanced
were done by drilling in an automatic jig. I'd think it would be
tough to balance just by sticking some random-sized epoxy blobs on
there, and I don't see any signs of filing. It doesn't look like the
windings are soldered into the commutator, just punched. This CAN
cause problems under load later on. Another thing I don't see is any
form of winding restraints at the ends. Usually there's some form of
ties(ribbon, straps, string!) to keep the windings in place so they
don't come loose at speed. This seems to have been abandoned on cheap
imported stuff, one reason the older motors are still out there
kicking while the newer stuff ends up in the scrap bin. The
commutators really don't look bad on your example, can't really see
the slip rings well enough to comment. Hope the output is worth it,
you can get 2 KW solid-state inverters now for well under $200.

Stan

[John]

William Wixon wrote:

"Carla Fong" wrote in message
...

RediLine makes motor-generators (more accurately 'motor-alternators') for
converting automotive DC (12 - 24 volt) to AC for powering tools, etc. -
so what you have is a DC motor coupled to an AC alternator in one package.

These used to be very popular with mobile locksmiths and similar trades
for powering 120 VAC machinery in a vehicle.

'Inverter' is generally construed to mean 'electronic DC-AC converter'
using solid state widgets.

These motor-generators (IMHO) are superior to inverters for motor loads -
they tolerate a lot more starting overcurrent without releasing the smoke.

Carla




thanks Carla,
i was specifically wondering about the blobs of JB weld on the armature in
the photos.

http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/armature1.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/armature2.jpg

b.w.




Those blobs on the ends looked like someone might have tried to repair a
broken or shorted winding.

As Carla said, those old rotary AC inverters you could run almost
anything on. I had a 12 to 115 volt one that was supposed to be a 1000
watts. It would easily start and run a 1 hp motor. It was mounted on
our service truck. The big problem was the truck altenator didnt put
out enough to keep up with it unless the motor was reving up.

John

[Don Young]

"William Wixon" wrote in message
...
hey, i have another question if anyone would like to reply. i posted "OT
commutator wear" on 6/24/07, finally got around to working on this
inverter again. removed the armature (to bring to a electric motor shop)
to get the slip rings smoothed out and saw these (two, one on each end)
blobs of what i assume is JB weld on the windings. my first thought was
one of the previous owners put them on there to disguise damage or to
cover up a jerryrig repair job (is it possible to solder broken armature
wires?). my second thought was maybe they were applied at the factory to
balance the amature. i have no idea. asking you guys.

http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/armature1.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/armature2.jpg

i was taking this inspection/repair job one step at a time, was reading
the service manual, procedure for disassembly, one of the steps was to
"...remove printed circuit board..." i was poking and prodding,
"...printed circuit board, printed CIRCUIT BOARD...." finally it dawned
on me there was NO printed circuit board. (one of the) previous owner
removed the printed circuit board and simply crimped together the wires
that went to it. THAT was a very depressing discovery/realization.
BUM-MER. replacement printed circuit board goes for like $230 but they
told me it's an older model and i'll have to get the "conversion kit" that
goes for $430, fukkin' bummer.

thanks for all your previous replies and thanks in advance for any info
y'all would like to impart.

b.w.

My opinion is that the blobs are to reinforce repaired windings. It would
seem pretty unusual to balance this way since you would have to let the
epoxy harden and then retry the balance. Balancing of armatures is normally
done by shallow drilling the rotor.

Actually, I think its pretty academic. A good motor shop can test the
armature and if it is good, then use it. I am curious what kind of circuit
board would have been removed, the wires crimped, and the unit still
operate. If you can obtain the circuit diagram a handy electronics guy
should be able to build a replacement.

Don Young

[William Wixon]

wrote in message
oups.com...


Don't know what those blobs are. All the armatures I've seen balanced
were done by drilling in an automatic jig. I'd think it would be
tough to balance just by sticking some random-sized epoxy blobs on
there, and I don't see any signs of filing. It doesn't look like the
windings are soldered into the commutator, just punched. This CAN
cause problems under load later on. Another thing I don't see is any
form of winding restraints at the ends. Usually there's some form of
ties(ribbon, straps, string!) to keep the windings in place so they
don't come loose at speed. This seems to have been abandoned on cheap
imported stuff, one reason the older motors are still out there
kicking while the newer stuff ends up in the scrap bin. The
commutators really don't look bad on your example, can't really see
the slip rings well enough to comment. Hope the output is worth it,
you can get 2 KW solid-state inverters now for well under $200.

Stan


thanks Stan.
i really had a hard time deciding whether or not to get this mechanical
inverter or the solid-state ones. i thought it would be nice to have a
"true sine wave" inverter (supposedly this redi-line inverter is) but teh
solid-state ones are very expensive. i was thinking if i could pick up a
(used) true sine wave inverter cheap on eBay i'd be ahead.

b.w.

[William Wixon]

"Don Young" wrote in message
...

My opinion is that the blobs are to reinforce repaired windings. It
would
seem pretty unusual to balance this way since you would have to let the
epoxy harden and then retry the balance. Balancing of armatures is
normally done by shallow drilling the rotor.

Actually, I think its pretty academic. A good motor shop can test the
armature and if it is good, then use it. I am curious what kind of circuit
board would have been removed, the wires crimped, and the unit still
operate. If you can obtain the circuit diagram a handy electronics guy
should be able to build a replacement.

Don Young



thanks Don,
i'm wanting to take the armature to an electric motor shop, i just want
to be able to walk in the door with some info of my own.
the circuit board, yeah, me too, i don't really know if this thing ran
well or at all. bought it from eBay, auction info said "as is" and "works
good". in a previous post i said one of the carbon brushes was completely
out/gone and the steel spring was rubbing against the slip ring, so, i
suppose it COULD'VE worked but i'm doubting if it worked good. i don't
really know if it worked at all without the circuit board and with the wires
crimped, i didn't try it when i got it, i thought i ought to open it up
first and check it out before i tried to run it. that would be the coolest,
if i could somehow home-build a replacement circuit board (instead of
coughing up the $230 or $400 they're asking for replacement parts).

thanks again.

b.w.

[William Wixon]

"john" wrote in message
...




Those blobs on the ends looked like someone might have tried to repair a
broken or shorted winding.

As Carla said, those old rotary AC inverters you could run almost anything
on. I had a 12 to 115 volt one that was supposed to be a 1000 watts. It
would easily start and run a 1 hp motor. It was mounted on our service
truck. The big problem was the truck altenator didnt put out enough to
keep up with it unless the motor was reving up.

John


thanks John.
(the specs say "continuous output watts 1600, surge output watts 2400".
the continuous and surge amps are 14.5 and 22)
(i thought i read somewhere you can run computers and such off this
inverter, "true sine wave")

b.w.

[Jon Elson]

William Wixon wrote:

thanks Don,
i'm wanting to take the armature to an electric motor shop, i just want
to be able to walk in the door with some info of my own.
the circuit board, yeah, me too, i don't really know if this thing ran
well or at all. bought it from eBay, auction info said "as is" and "works
good". in a previous post i said one of the carbon brushes was completely
out/gone and the steel spring was rubbing against the slip ring, so, i
suppose it COULD'VE worked but i'm doubting if it worked good. i don't
really know if it worked at all without the circuit board and with the wires
crimped, i didn't try it when i got it, i thought i ought to open it up
first and check it out before i tried to run it. that would be the coolest,
if i could somehow home-build a replacement circuit board (instead of
coughing up the $230 or $400 they're asking for replacement parts).
I'm really wondering why you are messing with this relic from
the early 1960's, at best. I'm pretty sure the field is 2-pole,
so that means the thing has to run at 3600 RPM to make 60 Hz
power. It is going to sound like a shop-vac when running.

There has to be a regulator to keep the dynamotor at 3600 RPM,
and they can't use the field to do that, as that is what
regulates the AC output. I can't figure from the armature photo
how the speed regulator functions. They might have an AC
frequency detector that cuts a series resistor in and out of the
armature circuit, or even just switch the armature current on
and off to regulate speed. Almost certainly it varies field
strength to regulate AC voltage. Probably with all the
regulation jumpered out it will run a bit above 60 Hz and 120
VAC output, which might be fine for running a small power tool
at a remote site.

Jon

[sparky]

On Jul 24, 10:45 pm, Jon Elson wrote:
William Wixon wrote:

thanks Don,
i'm wanting to take the armature to an electric motor shop, i just want
to be able to walk in the door with some info of my own.
the circuit board, yeah, me too, i don't really know if this thing ran
well or at all. bought it from eBay, auction info said "as is" and "works
good". in a previous post i said one of the carbon brushes was completely
out/gone and the steel spring was rubbing against the slip ring, so, i
suppose it COULD'VE worked but i'm doubting if it worked good. i don't
really know if it worked at all without the circuit board and with the wires
crimped, i didn't try it when i got it, i thought i ought to open it up
first and check it out before i tried to run it. that would be the coolest,
if i could somehow home-build a replacement circuit board (instead of
coughing up the $230 or $400 they're asking for replacement parts).

I'm really wondering why you are messing with this relic from
the early 1960's, at best. I'm pretty sure the field is 2-pole,
so that means the thing has to run at 3600 RPM to make 60 Hz
power. It is going to sound like a shop-vac when running.



No big deal ! All the small cheap generators out there have gas
engines
running at 3600 RPM.




There has to be a regulator to keep the dynamotor at 3600 RPM,
and they can't use the field to do that, as that is what
regulates the AC output. I can't figure from the armature photo
how the speed regulator functions. They might have an AC
frequency detector that cuts a series resistor in and out of the
armature circuit, or even just switch the armature current on
and off to regulate speed. Almost certainly it varies field
strength to regulate AC voltage. Probably with all the
regulation jumpered out it will run a bit above 60 Hz and 120
VAC output, which might be fine for running a small power tool
at a remote site.

Jon

[William Wixon]

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...
I'm really wondering why you are messing with this relic from the early
1960's, at best. I'm pretty sure the field is 2-pole, so that means the
thing has to run at 3600 RPM to make 60 Hz power. It is going to sound
like a shop-vac when running.

There has to be a regulator to keep the dynamotor at 3600 RPM, and they
can't use the field to do that, as that is what regulates the AC output.
I can't figure from the armature photo how the speed regulator functions.
They might have an AC frequency detector that cuts a series resistor in
and out of the armature circuit, or even just switch the armature current
on and off to regulate speed. Almost certainly it varies field strength
to regulate AC voltage. Probably with all the regulation jumpered out it
will run a bit above 60 Hz and 120 VAC output, which might be fine for
running a small power tool at a remote site.

Jon

hey jon,
i didn't know it was a relic. (i always figure like, a bow and arrow or a
cannon can still kill someone just as well as a (what's a new high tech
weapon?)) yeah it'll be loud, but i thought it would be neat if i could get
a 1600 watt inverter that produced a sine wave for $185. the sine wave
solid state inverters cost a lot more than that, and i figured it was
mechanical so if there WAS something wrong with it i could fix it, i'd be
leery of buying a solid state device used off eBay. (but i think i did end
up getting screwed on this deal anyhow though, but wouldn't have known that
going into it.) huh, thanks for the info about regulating it's speed. i
assume that must be what the MISSING circuit board must've done. :-( the
guy's auction said "as is" but also said "works good", which sucks. yeah,
small power tool at a remote site. that was kinda what i was hoping to get
out of it, and maybe also, i hoped, running the blower/burner on the boiler
in my basement during a power outage in the winter. hoping that maybe i
could charge up a "bank" (two deep cycle car batteries) and shut off the
(noisy) generator and run the boiler (etc.) off the inverter for a while.
it seemed from what i read this inverter was versatile, can run electric
motors but also computers, etc.. noisier than a solid state inverter, but
the trade off was that it didn't cost thousands of dollars. well, not yet
at least.

b.w.