Hello all!

Finally considering an arc welder. I still must decide between
buying/building either a transformer type or one based in a truck
alternator. Pricewise, buy/build the transformer (copper wire, iron
laminate, etc) seems similar to build the alternator type (motor,
alternator, battery, etc).
There is another consideration: The effect of the load on the house
appliances . When repair guys have been at the house the lights have
flickered noticeably, even wiring their transformer directly to the
breaker panel. I have voltage regulators at the computers, the tv and cable
box but the flicker seems a bad thing to do to the house in a regular
basis.
If I did my math right the load for a 2HP motor would be about 8 amps,
less than input amperage required for an useful transformer. Please
correct if wrong.
So do you guys with tranformer welders do something to alleviate the
problem of simply live with it?

BTW, right now my OA rig is near empty, but since I cannot spare $$ from
food and bills until year's end or so I will build a water resistor. Long
ago I got from Lindsay's the booklet that explains how to do it and the
materials are around the house, so the cost would be zero. Note that I have a
3-phase 208V 50amps outlet (yes I checked that), so any suggestion for
improvement is welcome.

--

Regards,


Mongke

Camilo Ramos wrote:
When repair guys have been at the house the lights have
flickered noticeably, even wiring their transformer directly to the
breaker panel.

Suspect the main circuit breaker and associated wiring.

Try to find out how many other houses are powered from the same
pole transformer as your house. Borrow a welder or other heavy
power user and confirm the flicker at your house. Try it at
other connected houses. A flicker at your house with a load
at a different house indicates a voltage drop problem at the
pole transformer.

--Winston

A transformer type home shop welder should not draw much current when not in
use, (open circuit) They are usually an adjustable loose coupled style.
Closing the coupling allows for more maximum current to flow. As they are
also a drop down about 7/8:1 voltage type, The primary current is about 1/8
the secondary or welding current. Welding at 80 amps should only draw about
10 to 12 amps in a 240 v. single phase primary.

If you are experiencing major flickering or dimming of your household
lighting, You should consult your power company. They should be able to
positively identify the problem. If it is in your home wiring, they will
advise you to consult an electrician. I would suspect a loose or
deteriorated neutral service connection. Specifically if your lightbulbs
seem to be short lived.

I do not understand why repairmen would apply the use of their own
transformer ?

You have three phase power in your home ?

Electrically producing your own Oxygen from water will also produce twice
the amount of Hydrogen gas. You would also need to compress the gasses
somewhat for use in a torch. Some serious hazards to consider.
--
Chipper Wood
useoursatyahoodotcom

"Camilo Ramos" wrote in message
...
Hello all!

Finally considering an arc welder. I still must decide between
buying/building either a transformer type or one based in a truck
alternator. Pricewise, buy/build the transformer (copper wire, iron
laminate, etc) seems similar to build the alternator type (motor,
alternator, battery, etc).
There is another consideration: The effect of the load on the house
appliances . When repair guys have been at the house the lights have
flickered noticeably, even wiring their transformer directly to the
breaker panel. I have voltage regulators at the computers, the tv and
cable
box but the flicker seems a bad thing to do to the house in a regular
basis.
If I did my math right the load for a 2HP motor would be about 8 amps,
less than input amperage required for an useful transformer. Please
correct if wrong.
So do you guys with tranformer welders do something to alleviate the
problem of simply live with it?

BTW, right now my OA rig is near empty, but since I cannot spare $$ from
food and bills until year's end or so I will build a water resistor. Long
ago I got from Lindsay's the booklet that explains how to do it and the
materials are around the house, so the cost would be zero. Note that I
have a
3-phase 208V 50amps outlet (yes I checked that), so any suggestion for
improvement is welcome.

--

Regards,


Mongke

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:03:14 +0000, Chipper Wood wrote:



You have three phase power in your home ?

Yes. This was semirural when the condominium was built some 25 years ago.

Electrically producing your own Oxygen from water will also produce twice
the amount of Hydrogen gas. You would also need to compress the gasses
somewhat for use in a torch. Some serious hazards to consider.

No I'm not planning electrolysis but a water resistor as current limiting
device for arc welding

--

Regards,

Mongke

Camilo Ramos wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:03:14 +0000, Chipper Wood wrote:



You have three phase power in your home ?

Yes. This was semirural when the condominium was built some 25 years ago.

Electrically producing your own Oxygen from water will also produce twice
the amount of Hydrogen gas. You would also need to compress the gasses
somewhat for use in a torch. Some serious hazards to consider.

No I'm not planning electrolysis but a water resistor as current limiting
device for arc welding

--

Regards,

Mongke

Is the intent to draw less wall power?

The easy answer is to weld at less amperage. Reducing the imput current
won't help any; all you will get is an underpowered welder.

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:02:57 -0500, "Camilo Ramos"
wrote:

Hello all!

Finally considering an arc welder. I still must decide between
buying/building either a transformer type or one based in a truck
alternator. Pricewise, buy/build the transformer (copper wire, iron
laminate, etc) seems similar to build the alternator type (motor,
alternator, battery, etc).

Have you considered running off of your vehicle ? I know a number of
people that have multiple alternators under the hood and do great
welding from them. One person in particular can bring a screaming V-8
to its knees while welding. Sounds like amplified finger nails on a
chalk board.

There is another consideration: The effect of the load on the house
appliances . When repair guys have been at the house the lights have
flickered noticeably, even wiring their transformer directly to the
breaker panel. I have voltage regulators at the computers, the tv and cable
box but the flicker seems a bad thing to do to the house in a regular
basis.
If I did my math right the load for a 2HP motor would be about 8 amps,
less than input amperage required for an useful transformer. Please
correct if wrong.
So do you guys with tranformer welders do something to alleviate the
problem of simply live with it?

BTW, right now my OA rig is near empty, but since I cannot spare $$ from
food and bills until year's end or so I will build a water resistor. Long
ago I got from Lindsay's the booklet that explains how to do it and the
materials are around the house, so the cost would be zero. Note that I have a
3-phase 208V 50amps outlet (yes I checked that), so any suggestion for
improvement is welcome.

Are all or a lot of your lights flickering? Any lights that are on dimmers
are very susceptable to minor voltage variations which translate into
obvious flickering by the lamp. This is due to the dimmer circuit and not
serious voltage fluctuations in your house. If non-dimmer circuit lights are
flickering then you may have a problem.

I have a 240V/225A Miller buzz-box and typically weld at 140A or less. It is
connected back to the main breaker panel. My wife says we don't have any
flickering problems in the house when I weld.

Billh

"Camilo Ramos" wrote in message
...
Hello all!

Finally considering an arc welder. I still must decide between
buying/building either a transformer type or one based in a truck
alternator. Pricewise, buy/build the transformer (copper wire, iron
laminate, etc) seems similar to build the alternator type (motor,
alternator, battery, etc).
There is another consideration: The effect of the load on the house
appliances . When repair guys have been at the house the lights have
flickered noticeably, even wiring their transformer directly to the
breaker panel. I have voltage regulators at the computers, the tv and
cable
box but the flicker seems a bad thing to do to the house in a regular
basis.
If I did my math right the load for a 2HP motor would be about 8 amps,
less than input amperage required for an useful transformer. Please
correct if wrong.
So do you guys with tranformer welders do something to alleviate the
problem of simply live with it?

BTW, right now my OA rig is near empty, but since I cannot spare $$ from
food and bills until year's end or so I will build a water resistor. Long
ago I got from Lindsay's the booklet that explains how to do it and the
materials are around the house, so the cost would be zero. Note that I
have a
3-phase 208V 50amps outlet (yes I checked that), so any suggestion for
improvement is welcome.

--

Regards,


Mongke

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:21:33 +0000, Rich Jones wrote:



Is the intent to draw less wall power?


Not exactly. The intent is to keep the arc from drawing more current than
the house wiring can take. Thus the max available amps are limited by the
breaker rating, in my case 50 amps.
Obviously this is an atrociously innefficient way to get an arc for
welding but its the only one that can be had for $0, which is the amount
I can spend for now.

The easy answer is to weld at less amperage. Reducing the imput current
won't help any; all you will get is an underpowered welder.



--

Regards,

Mongke

The easy answer is to weld at less amperage. Reducing the imput current
won't help any; all you will get is an underpowered welder.


And a bad weld.

"Camilo Ramos" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:21:33 +0000, Rich Jones wrote:



Is the intent to draw less wall power?


Not exactly. The intent is to keep the arc from drawing more current than
the house wiring can take. Thus the max available amps are limited by the
breaker rating, in my case 50 amps.
Obviously this is an atrociously innefficient way to get an arc for
welding but its the only one that can be had for $0, which is the amount
I can spend for now.

The easy answer is to weld at less amperage. Reducing the imput current
won't help any; all you will get is an underpowered welder.



--

Regards,

Mongke



If I understand correctly, you are going to use the 208V volts as welding
potential through a water resistor to limit the current so you don't pop the
breaker. If so, what you are likely to do is kill yourself since the stinger
will have the full voltage applied to it when not welding. I believe the
open-circuit voltage of buzz-boxes is not supposed to be higher than around
80V and for good reason. Suggest you wait until you can afford a safer
setup - good coffin probably costs more than a used buzz-box.
billh

No I'm not planning electrolysis but a water resistor as current limiting
device for arc welding

Not a very safe way to weld as open circuit voltage between electrode and
work would be at line voltage. Not to mention electrode/resistor to ground
also at line voltage. Save up and buy a used 'Buzz box' for about $50 usd.
or so. Much safer and adjustable.

Chipper Wood
useoursatyahoodotcom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Camilo Ramos"
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking,sci.engr.joining.welding
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 2:05 PM
Subject: Arc welder and house lights/appliances


On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:03:14 +0000, Chipper Wood wrote:



You have three phase power in your home ?

Yes. This was semirural when the condominium was built some 25 years ago.

Electrically producing your own Oxygen from water will also produce
twice
the amount of Hydrogen gas. You would also need to compress the gasses
somewhat for use in a torch. Some serious hazards to consider.

No I'm not planning electrolysis but a water resistor as current limiting
device for arc welding

--

Regards,

Mongke

"Camilo Ramos" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:03:14 +0000, Chipper Wood wrote:



You have three phase power in your home ?

Yes. This was semirural when the condominium was built some 25 years ago.

Electrically producing your own Oxygen from water will also produce
twice
the amount of Hydrogen gas. You would also need to compress the gasses
somewhat for use in a torch. Some serious hazards to consider.

No I'm not planning electrolysis but a water resistor as current limiting
device for arc welding

--

Regards,

Mongke

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:06:25 -0700, "Chipper Wood"
wrote:

No I'm not planning electrolysis but a water resistor as current limiting
device for arc welding

Not a very safe way to weld as open circuit voltage between electrode and
work would be at line voltage. Not to mention electrode/resistor to ground
also at line voltage. Save up and buy a used 'Buzz box' for about $50 usd.
or so. Much safer and adjustable.


Or buy a cheapy Chinese MIG. They typically use less amperage.

Gunner



Chipper Wood
useoursatyahoodotcom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Camilo Ramos"
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking,sci.engr.joining.welding
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 2:05 PM
Subject: Arc welder and house lights/appliances


On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:03:14 +0000, Chipper Wood wrote:



You have three phase power in your home ?

Yes. This was semirural when the condominium was built some 25 years ago.

Electrically producing your own Oxygen from water will also produce
twice
the amount of Hydrogen gas. You would also need to compress the gasses
somewhat for use in a torch. Some serious hazards to consider.

No I'm not planning electrolysis but a water resistor as current limiting
device for arc welding

--

Regards,

Mongke

"Camilo Ramos" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:03:14 +0000, Chipper Wood wrote:



You have three phase power in your home ?

Yes. This was semirural when the condominium was built some 25 years ago.

Electrically producing your own Oxygen from water will also produce
twice
the amount of Hydrogen gas. You would also need to compress the gasses
somewhat for use in a torch. Some serious hazards to consider.

No I'm not planning electrolysis but a water resistor as current limiting
device for arc welding

--

Regards,

Mongke



"The entire population of Great Britain has been declared insane by
their government. It is believed that should any one of them come in
possession of a firearm, he will immediately start to foam at the
mouth and begin kiling children at the nearest school. The proof of
their insanity is that they actually believe this."
-- someone in misc.survivalism

"Chipper Wood" wrote: (clip) Electrically producing your own Oxygen from
water will also produce twice the amount of Hydrogen gas. You would also
need to compress the gasses somewhat for use in a torch. Some serious
hazards to consider. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^
I have a book on welding which describes a setup for oxy-hydrogen welding
based on this exact technique. The water is broken down to a mixture of
hydrogen and oxygen by electric current. This flows to a torch, where it
burns, and the only combustion product is water vapor. The flame is
supposed to be very clean, and what is neat--you only need water and an
electrical outlet, so the cost of operation would be almost zero.

I have never seen one, but I would like to have one, I think. I am guessing
that you would control the flame by turning the current up or down.

Better use a GFI plug to be safe, lol.

"billh" wrote in message
. ..
Are all or a lot of your lights flickering? Any lights that are on dimmers
are very susceptable to minor voltage variations which translate into
obvious flickering by the lamp. This is due to the dimmer circuit and not
serious voltage fluctuations in your house. If non-dimmer circuit lights
are
flickering then you may have a problem.

I have a 240V/225A Miller buzz-box and typically weld at 140A or less. It
is
connected back to the main breaker panel. My wife says we don't have any
flickering problems in the house when I weld.

Billh

"Camilo Ramos" wrote in message
...
Hello all!

Finally considering an arc welder. I still must decide between
buying/building either a transformer type or one based in a truck
alternator. Pricewise, buy/build the transformer (copper wire, iron
laminate, etc) seems similar to build the alternator type (motor,
alternator, battery, etc).
There is another consideration: The effect of the load on the house
appliances . When repair guys have been at the house the lights have
flickered noticeably, even wiring their transformer directly to the
breaker panel. I have voltage regulators at the computers, the tv and
cable
box but the flicker seems a bad thing to do to the house in a regular
basis.
If I did my math right the load for a 2HP motor would be about 8 amps,
less than input amperage required for an useful transformer. Please
correct if wrong.
So do you guys with tranformer welders do something to alleviate the
problem of simply live with it?

BTW, right now my OA rig is near empty, but since I cannot spare $$
from
food and bills until year's end or so I will build a water resistor.
Long
ago I got from Lindsay's the booklet that explains how to do it and the
materials are around the house, so the cost would be zero. Note that I
have a
3-phase 208V 50amps outlet (yes I checked that), so any suggestion for
improvement is welcome.

--

Regards,


Mongke

SteveB wrote:



The easy answer is to weld at less amperage. Reducing the imput current
won't help any; all you will get is an underpowered welder.


And a bad weld.

Goes without saying.

This is an awful conplicated (and maybe dangerous) way to avoid turning down
the knob.

On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:29:47 +0000, billh wrote:



If I understand correctly, you are going to use the 208V volts as welding
potential through a water resistor to limit the current so you don't pop
the breaker. If so, what you are likely to do is kill yourself since the
stinger will have the full voltage applied to it when not welding. I
believe the open-circuit voltage of buzz-boxes is not supposed to be
higher than around 80V and for good reason. Suggest you wait until you can
afford a safer setup - good coffin probably costs more than a used
buzz-box. billh


Well from my reading of old posts it was a method used on ocasion on the
first half of the XX century, the Golden Age of Unsafe Practices . It
appears also in an issue of Scientific American of 1966, with several 1000
watt nichrome elements as resistors. Its author also points out the high
open voltage but he connected his design to 110 V.

--

Regards,

Mongke

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:29:50 +0000, Sunworshipper wrote:

From: Sunworshipper
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Arc welder and house lights/appliances
Message-ID:
References:
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On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:02:57 -0500, "Camilo Ramos"
wrote:

Hello all!

Finally considering an arc welder. I still must decide between
buying/building either a transformer type or one based in a truck
alternator. Pricewise, buy/build the transformer (copper wire, iron
laminate, etc) seems similar to build the alternator type (motor,
alternator, battery, etc).

Have you considered running off of your vehicle ? I know a number of
people that have multiple alternators under the hood and do great welding
from them. One person in particular can bring a screaming V-8 to its knees
while welding. Sounds like amplified finger nails on a chalk board.


I'm a carless person (looking down in shame ) . My other plan is to
power an scrouged alternator with a motor. I have seen several plans for
this.

--

Regards,

Mongke

Camilo Ramos wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:29:47 +0000, billh wrote:



If I understand correctly, you are going to use the 208V volts as welding
potential through a water resistor to limit the current so you don't pop
the breaker. If so, what you are likely to do is kill yourself since the
stinger will have the full voltage applied to it when not welding. I
believe the open-circuit voltage of buzz-boxes is not supposed to be
higher than around 80V and for good reason. Suggest you wait until you can
afford a safer setup - good coffin probably costs more than a used
buzz-box. billh



Well from my reading of old posts it was a method used on ocasion on the
first half of the XX century, the Golden Age of Unsafe Practices . It
appears also in an issue of Scientific American of 1966, with several 1000
watt nichrome elements as resistors. Its author also points out the high
open voltage but he connected his design to 110 V.


Sorta gives a new meaning to the term "tombstone welder"

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:29:50 -0700, Sunworshipper
wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:02:57 -0500, "Camilo Ramos"
wrote:

Hello all!

Finally considering an arc welder. I still must decide between
buying/building either a transformer type or one based in a truck
alternator. Pricewise, buy/build the transformer (copper wire, iron
laminate, etc) seems similar to build the alternator type (motor,
alternator, battery, etc).

Have you considered running off of your vehicle ? I know a number of
people that have multiple alternators under the hood and do great
welding from them. One person in particular can bring a screaming V-8
to its knees while welding. Sounds like amplified finger nails on a
chalk board.

Have you considered using regular car batteries???

I have used 2 or 3 hooked up in series (depending on thickness of
steel & rod etc.) Although dangerous, it can be used in the bush using
jumper cables, vice grips to hold the rod and all you need is a small
welders lens and an asortment of rods.

Check it out
http://www.lcool.org/technical/80_se...y_welding.html

On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:10:44 -0500, "Camilo Ramos"
wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:29:50 +0000, Sunworshipper wrote:

From: Sunworshipper
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Arc welder and house lights/appliances
Message-ID:
References:
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.646
Lines: 37
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:29:50 -0700
NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.104.0.115
X-Complaints-To:
X-Trace: okepread01 1089765280 68.104.0.115 (Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:34:40 EDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:34:40 EDT
Organization: Cox Communications
Path:
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Xref: 127.0.0.1 rec.crafts.metalworking:69992
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:02:57 -0500, "Camilo Ramos"
wrote:

Hello all!

Finally considering an arc welder. I still must decide between
buying/building either a transformer type or one based in a truck
alternator. Pricewise, buy/build the transformer (copper wire, iron
laminate, etc) seems similar to build the alternator type (motor,
alternator, battery, etc).

Have you considered running off of your vehicle ? I know a number of
people that have multiple alternators under the hood and do great welding
from them. One person in particular can bring a screaming V-8 to its knees
while welding. Sounds like amplified finger nails on a chalk board.


I'm a carless person (looking down in shame ) . My other plan is to
power an scrouged alternator with a motor. I have seen several plans for
this.

You had me going early this morning , I kept thinking careless as I
was getting ready and then it hit me car less ! I kept getting visions
of you burning down the vehicle or thinking it would mess up the other
electrical things from carelessly wiring it up. Well from what I've
seen make sure you get a big enough engine to weld what you want.
That's why I jumped on a free 500 ci caddy motor , but the way gas is
going up I don't know... I might trade it for something a little
smaller. Time will tell.

On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:07:46 -0500, "Camilo Ramos"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

In all of this, safety or not, aren't you only going to get 20 Amps to
weld with?

If I understand correctly, you are going to use the 208V volts as welding
potential through a water resistor to limit the current so you don't pop
the breaker. If so, what you are likely to do is kill yourself since the
stinger will have the full voltage applied to it when not welding. I
believe the open-circuit voltage of buzz-boxes is not supposed to be
higher than around 80V and for good reason. Suggest you wait until you can
afford a safer setup - good coffin probably costs more than a used
buzz-box. billh


Well from my reading of old posts it was a method used on ocasion on the
first half of the XX century, the Golden Age of Unsafe Practices . It
appears also in an issue of Scientific American of 1966, with several 1000
watt nichrome elements as resistors. Its author also points out the high
open voltage but he connected his design to 110 V.

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:08:21 +0000, Old Nick wrote:


In all of this, safety or not, aren't you only going to get 20 Amps to
weld with?


50 amps, which is the rating of my larger breakers. If I understand the
working principle of the contraption the amount of current is limited by
both the resistance of the resistor itself AND the wiring capacity (i. e:
wires and breakers) fo the house.


--

Regards,


Mongke

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:08:18 +0000, Sunworshipper wrote:

I'm a carless person (looking down in shame ) . My other plan is to

You had me going early this morning , I kept thinking careless as I was
getting ready and then it hit me car less ! I kept getting visions of you
burning down the vehicle or thinking it would mess up the other electrical
things from carelessly wiring it up. Well from what I've seen make sure
you get a big enough engine to weld what you want. That's why I jumped on
a free 500 ci caddy motor , but the way gas is going up I don't know... I
might trade it for something a little smaller. Time will tell.

LOL

--

Regards,


Mongke

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:04:51 -0500, "mongke"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:08:21 +0000, Old Nick wrote:


In all of this, safety or not, aren't you only going to get 20 Amps to
weld with?



ACtually it's interesting. This would probably work better on 110V
system than a 240Volt system, because the _voltage_ is there, and the
fuses all have to be twice as big for a given job.

In my house, the breakers are 15 Amp. 50Amp breakers woul be most
unusual in a domestic situation.

Whatever, even at 50A, it's a long way from a cheap 140Amp buzz-box.
They're only around $100 here, and less if no elads etc (which will be
a cost even with the salt resistor.

50 amps, which is the rating of my larger breakers. If I understand the
working principle of the contraption the amount of current is limited by
both the resistance of the resistor itself AND the wiring capacity (i. e:
wires and breakers) fo the house.

One by nature, the other perforce! G