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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Interview for a machine shop position
I just got back from an interview for a die making position (Which
really didn't seem like a die making position after I seen what they did...more on that later) The shop manager looked at my resume and said I had the basic knowledge of the machine shop trade. He said he wants to hire an apprentice. He also said he wants someone to fit the young profile that he is looking for. I thought to myself..."this guy only wants cheap labor." All of this kinda ticked me off a little because I've been a toolmaker for the past 6 years. During this time, about 80% of my work has involved designing and making my own jigs, fixtures and gages with no supervision whatsoever. And the tooling I make usually needs to be highly precise. It's not a machinist type position that I'm doing by no means. Anyways...back to the "die making" position, I took a tour of their shop. All that they had was a lathe, vertical mill, 2 surface grinders, and 2 drill presses. It looked more like a maintenance shop than a die shop. The shop is support for a manufacturing floor that has a bunch of punch presses. I asked the die maker in the shop what kind of work he did. He told me that he mainly repaired dies by sharpening them. He seemed a bit upset because the company doesn't want to purchase the equipment for die making. They have all of their dies made from other machine shops. Is this really die making? I mean...the shop manager was saying things about my toolmaking experience as being useless. However, if I went to work for his company, I seriously don't know if I'd ever actually do some precise work or design any tools. Alot of this message is me just venting (maybe you guys had a similar situation that you want to share). |
#2
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Interview for a machine shop position
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#3
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Interview for a machine shop position
wrote in message oups.com... Is this really die making? I've gone to school with a number of guys from automotive production shops which include stampers. It seems that production toolmaking typically pays more than jobbing, but requires less skill and indeed less work. I work for a jobber. We get paid less, we physically do more work, we're constantly under tight deadlines BUT we learn a whole bunch more. The toolrooms in production shops won't do anything beyond either doing preventative maintenance on a die, or getting a *broken* die running (hobbling) to complete a production run before they send it to the jobber to be properly repaired. They will perform simple engineering changes which basically means moving punches or adjusting trim/removing burrs. In our line of work, all draw work and form work as well as significant trim/pierce changes are done buy the jobber shops. The production shops typically don't have the skill or the machines to complete that type of task. While I speak in generalities, there are some people who are willing to do what we would consider an honest days work in a production shop. It's not the norm, however. YYMV. Regards, Robin |
#4
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Interview for a machine shop position
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#5
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Interview for a machine shop position
Dave Hinz wrote:
On 17 May 2006 16:26:13 -0700, wrote: Alot of this message is me just venting (maybe you guys had a similar situation that you want to share). Go with your first instict, don't take it if offered. Been there, done that, whish I had listened to my own advice. What he said. Walk unless you really, really need the money. |
#6
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Interview for a machine shop position
"Eric R Snow" wrote in message ... On 17 May 2006 16:26:13 -0700, wrote: Say Jody, I think your job for the last 6 years sounds like what a machinist does. What am I missing here? I make all my own fixtures and jigs. In fact I make everything in my shop without supervision since I'm self employed. I work to tight tolerances for much of the work. And I'm a machinist. Should I call myself a toolmaker? Are you a certified toolmaker? Have you apprenticed under a toolmaker? The certified machinists at my work program and run machines. The certified toolmakers take pieces made by the machinists and build working dies. They are certainly not the same. Also, what's a "tight tolerance"? Both as far as your jig and fixture work as well as the parts they produce. Regards, Robin |
#7
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Interview for a machine shop position
Say Jody, I think your job for the last 6 years sounds like what a machinist does. What am I missing here? I make all my own fixtures and jigs. In fact I make everything in my shop without supervision since I'm self employed. I work to tight tolerances for much of the work. And I'm a machinist. Should I call myself a toolmaker? Eric R Snow, Machini, er, Toolmaker, E T Precision Mach, er, hum, Toolmaking If you are self-employed, then you are more of a businessman than a machinist. So tell me your definition of a machinist and a toolmaker? I'm not going to get in a battle of what a machinist does and what toolmaker does. I know what I do is a step above a machinist. I don't do die making. Therefore, I won't call myself a die maker. Same thing with moldmaking....I won't call myself one because I don't do it. However, I do make and design tools to hold production parts on the shop floor. I don't sit behind a machine and make 5 of these parts or 50 of those parts. I let the guys on the shop floor do that. Occassionally, we may let businessmen like yourself make these parts if we get behind |
#8
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Interview for a machine shop position
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#9
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Interview for a machine shop position
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#11
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Interview for a machine shop position
On Wed, 17 May 2006 20:51:29 -0400, "Robin S."
wrote: "Eric R Snow" wrote in message .. . On 17 May 2006 16:26:13 -0700, wrote: Say Jody, I think your job for the last 6 years sounds like what a machinist does. What am I missing here? I make all my own fixtures and jigs. In fact I make everything in my shop without supervision since I'm self employed. I work to tight tolerances for much of the work. And I'm a machinist. Should I call myself a toolmaker? Are you a certified toolmaker? Have you apprenticed under a toolmaker? The certified machinists at my work program and run machines. The certified toolmakers take pieces made by the machinists and build working dies. They are certainly not the same. Also, what's a "tight tolerance"? Both as far as your jig and fixture work as well as the parts they produce. Regards, Robin I guess, Robin, that the ultimate certification is in the quality of work I do. Most of the time these days the tightest tolerance I work to is +/- .0001". A few years ago I ran a job making brass bullets for a .50 caliber target rifle. That job required roundness within .00003" TIR. Size however within .0001" TIR. OAL though was wide open at +/_ ..002". But no, I'm not certified from a school or teaching program. I make and engineer all sorts of stuff and it seems kind of limiting to call oneself a "Toolmaker" as opposed to a "Machinist". Does a toolmaker only make tools? Or does a toolmaker make whatever is needed? Can this person weld too? Does this make them a toolmaker/welder? Does the toolmaker also heat treat some parts? Maybe grind some too? Sheesh. Eric R Snow, Resigned to being just a machinist who maybe can do a couple other things. Especially good at sitting on thumbs though. Nose picking too. |
#12
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Interview for a machine shop position
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#13
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Interview for a machine shop position
Eric R Snow wrote: Actually Jody, I'm more of a machinist than a businessman. I'm glad that you are a step above me. Maybe you can give me some advice. ERS LOL...dude...take it easy. I never said I was above you. Heck...I don't even know what skills you have in the metalworking industry. You probably are above me with your skills. Don't take it so personal. And don't read into everything that is typed. Your worse than my girlfriend. You started out on the wrong foot when you began typing in this thread with your annoying sarcasm. What's with all of that? Everybody else here has been kind enough to give me advice on this situation. Some advice?...chill out. Life is too short. |
#14
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Interview for a machine shop position
In article ,
Eric R Snow wrote: Resigned to being just a machinist who maybe can do a couple other things. Especially good at sitting on thumbs though. Nose picking too. ASS-u-ming I ever get serious about trying to make money (a long process of not ruining my fun at same is at work there) from my shop work (wood, electronics, CNC, hand tools, metal, etc...) I've determined that I'll be pulling my moniker from one of my oldest (likely pre-1860) lathes. Maker It's the only thing general enough to cover it all...I am NOT a specialist, nor do I care to be. -- Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by |
#16
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Interview for a machine shop position
"Eric R Snow" wrote in message ... Or does a toolmaker make whatever is needed? Ultimately a toolmaker does whatever is needed. It is a specialization. GP's and heart surgeons save people's lives through medicine. They are not the same. Toolmakers have specific knowledge which pertains to the tooling they build and/or maintain. When building new dies, tryout/troubleshooting is a major part of the build, taking in excess of 50% of the total hours required to complete the build. Tryout typically requires very little "by the numbers machine work" while requiring lots of experience-based decision and execution. Jig and fixture makers have specific knowledge as far as accuracy and location, automation, productivity, ergonomics, etc. This includes original design as well as tryout/troubleshooting. A toolmaker is typically considered the top guy on the job, below management. The really good ones can make decisions that can effect the form, function and buildability of the final product and frequently that's what the customer wants. Understand that due to the custom nature of tool and die making in general, the toolmaker is required to take a design that resembles "functional" and make good parts. It may sound trivial these days with computers and sophisticated programs available to designers and engineers, but ultimately (especially in die work), the tool as designed will not produce a good part. As far as your job is concerned, why would you even bother getting hung up on a title? Aside from the previous ribbing due to the rampant arrogance in the world of tool building, it's really just a name. I know many certified toolmakers who can just barely get a die in the press and get the die to close. I know others who can truly take a die from design to purchased tool. If you're a one man army, there is virtually no title which would adequately define your job except for perhaps entrepreneur. Regards, Robin P.S. Signs of a toolmaker: heavy drinking habit, arrogance, vulgarity, healthy distaste for engineers, constantly dirty snot, intolerance of bright lights, social ineptitude, inability to do any more than just less than the required amount of work to complete a job, nervous ticks, jumpiness, partial/complete deafness, having the compulsion to stare blankly at everyone passing by, etc. |
#17
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Interview for a machine shop position
In article , Robert Swinney says...
Yeah! Because a sweatshop by any other name is still . . . . a sweatshop. Whatever job you end up taking, get *all* points of interest in writing. Randy Not for nothing, but that (requiring terms in writing) is the quickest way to not get hired. Granted in this case it's a good litmus test, but employers and managers get really, really, antsy whenever they have to promise an employee something in writing. They get worried that they might be held to it, and won't be able to change their mind whenever they feel like it in the future. Bosses hate that. Another issue with the idea is, even if they *do* put a promise in writing, it won't be worth much. The standard scenario is that you extract a written promise from your boss, for "X." Then you get transferred to a different group, or your division is taken over by another one - so you have a new management chain. "I didn't make the promise to you, your former boss did. That was then, this is now. Sorry the promise is wothless." Except usually they leave out the 'sorry' part. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
#18
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Interview for a machine shop position
jim rozen wrote:
In article , Robert Swinney says... Yeah! Because a sweatshop by any other name is still . . . . a sweatshop. Whatever job you end up taking, get *all* points of interest in writing. Randy Not for nothing, but that (requiring terms in writing) is the quickest way to not get hired. Granted in this case it's a good litmus test, but employers and managers get really, really, antsy whenever they have to promise an employee something in writing. They get worried that they might be held to it, and won't be able to change their mind whenever they feel like it in the future. Bosses hate that. And this especially won't fly with any company that makes an honest effort to comply with all the rules, laws and legal precedent regarding labor. Companies invest a bunch of time and money trying to be compliant with all the laws and they won't risk noncompliance with an ad- hock agreement not reviewed by the legal suits. |
#19
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Interview for a machine shop position
On 18 May 2006 12:48:12 -0700, jim rozen wrote:
Not for nothing, but that (requiring terms in writing) is the quickest way to not get hired. Granted in this case it's a good litmus test, but employers and managers get really, really, antsy whenever they have to promise an employee something in writing. Right. If they lie to you, find another job and leave. Give "the job isn't as advertized" as your reason for leaving. They get worried that they might be held to it, and won't be able to change their mind whenever they feel like it in the future. Bosses hate that. Yup. It also makes you look like someone who is likely to push the very last "letter of the law" issue, taking every sick day you're allowed to without being written up, and so on. Might not be the case, but that's how it's perceived. Another issue with the idea is, even if they *do* put a promise in writing, it won't be worth much. The standard scenario is that you extract a written promise from your boss, for "X." Then you get transferred to a different group, or your division is taken over by another one - so you have a new management chain. Yup. "Wasn't me who promised that, sorry." Again, if you're lied to, get a better job. They don't owe you, you don't owe them. "I didn't make the promise to you, your former boss did. That was then, this is now. Sorry the promise is wothless." Except usually they leave out the 'sorry' part. Just like lawmakers. |
#20
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Interview for a machine shop position
On Thu, 18 May 2006 15:22:56 -0400, "Robin S." wrote:
P.S. Signs of a toolmaker: heavy drinking habit, arrogance, vulgarity, healthy distaste for engineers, constantly dirty snot, intolerance of bright lights, social ineptitude, inability to do any more than just less than the required amount of work to complete a job, nervous ticks, jumpiness, partial/complete deafness, having the compulsion to stare blankly at everyone passing by, etc. Bugger, I suppose that means I'm a toolmaker. And there I was thinking that I was a professional electrical engineer, who grew into and got burned out by computers and just wanted to make swarf as a hobby to keep his sanity. Mark Rand RTFM |
#21
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Interview for a machine shop position
On Thu, 18 May 2006 09:24:01 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
Randy Replogle quickly quoth: wrote: However, if I went to work for his company, I seriously don't know if I'd ever actually do some precise work or design any tools. Alot of this message is me just venting (maybe you guys had a similar situation that you want to share). Whatever job you end up taking, get *all* points of interest in writing. Excellent advice, Randy. Jody, in addition to that, make your apprehensions known to the guy before you're hired so you're on the same page. Maybe they'll end up redoing their job definition so you're happy or so they get the worker they really need, even if they don't know what they want. You never know until you ask. I wish I'd asked more questions before hiring on to some of my previous (automotive repair) jobs, and I've had employers tell me that the touchy but honest questions I did ask were important to them for future hires. -------------------------------------------------------- Murphy was an Optimist ---------------------------- http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development |
#22
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Interview for a machine shop position
On Thu, 18 May 2006 15:22:56 -0400, "Robin S."
wrote: "Eric R Snow" wrote in message .. . Or does a toolmaker make whatever is needed? Ultimately a toolmaker does whatever is needed. It is a specialization. GP's and heart surgeons save people's lives through medicine. They are not the same. Toolmakers have specific knowledge which pertains to the tooling they build and/or maintain. When building new dies, tryout/troubleshooting is a major part of the build, taking in excess of 50% of the total hours required to complete the build. Tryout typically requires very little "by the numbers machine work" while requiring lots of experience-based decision and execution. Jig and fixture makers have specific knowledge as far as accuracy and location, automation, productivity, ergonomics, etc. This includes original design as well as tryout/troubleshooting. A toolmaker is typically considered the top guy on the job, below management. The really good ones can make decisions that can effect the form, function and buildability of the final product and frequently that's what the customer wants. Understand that due to the custom nature of tool and die making in general, the toolmaker is required to take a design that resembles "functional" and make good parts. It may sound trivial these days with computers and sophisticated programs available to designers and engineers, but ultimately (especially in die work), the tool as designed will not produce a good part. As far as your job is concerned, why would you even bother getting hung up on a title? Aside from the previous ribbing due to the rampant arrogance in the world of tool building, it's really just a name. I know many certified toolmakers who can just barely get a die in the press and get the die to close. I know others who can truly take a die from design to purchased tool. If you're a one man army, there is virtually no title which would adequately define your job except for perhaps entrepreneur. Regards, Robin P.S. Signs of a toolmaker: heavy drinking habit, arrogance, vulgarity, healthy distaste for engineers, constantly dirty snot, intolerance of bright lights, social ineptitude, inability to do any more than just less than the required amount of work to complete a job, nervous ticks, jumpiness, partial/complete deafness, having the compulsion to stare blankly at everyone passing by, etc. Robin, I'm not hung up about my title. It just seemed to me that the OP was denigrating machinists as if what he did made him better. Using your doctor analogy it's sorta like comparing my Orthopedic Surgeon to my GP. I have tremendous respect for both of them. Their jobs are different and the Ortho guy had to spend extra years on his exact specialty. But they are both equals in my eyes. The surgeon has lousy bedside manner because he is kinda shy. He tries hard though. The GP really listens to what I say, pays attention to the other things going on in my life that may affect my pain level, and doesn't dawdle when checking my prostate. ERS |
#23
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Interview for a machine shop position
"Eric R Snow" wrote in message ... Robin, I'm not hung up about my title. It just seemed to me that the OP was denigrating machinists as if what he did made him better. I have found this mentality to be common in industry, although I haven't been to very many shops. The kicker is that while a toolmaker can typically do what a machinist can, albeit not as quickly, a machinist can seldom do what a toolmaker can. For example, I can setup, program (manually or using CAM) and run CNC machines and make good parts. I can't do it really quickly but ultimately I can get a good part. I believe none of the machinists at work have any clue about die assembly or tryout - if they did, they'd be toolmakers. Indeed calling a toolmaker a machinist is typically considered an insult. Now my perspective is in the eyes of die work. Jigs and fixtures sound ultimately more "numbers" based as opposed to experience and intuition, but I could be completely wrong as I have built very few, and only very simple jigs and fixtures. Nothing like inspection fixtures, high-production fixtures, or tooling for automated assembly. YMMV. Regards, Robin |
#24
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Interview for a machine shop position
Right on, Jim. Whoever blurted the "get in writing" statement, needs a good
dose of reality. Bob Swinney "jim rozen" wrote in message ... In article , Robert Swinney says... Yeah! Because a sweatshop by any other name is still . . . . a sweatshop. Whatever job you end up taking, get *all* points of interest in writing. Randy Not for nothing, but that (requiring terms in writing) is the quickest way to not get hired. Granted in this case it's a good litmus test, but employers and managers get really, really, antsy whenever they have to promise an employee something in writing. They get worried that they might be held to it, and won't be able to change their mind whenever they feel like it in the future. Bosses hate that. Another issue with the idea is, even if they *do* put a promise in writing, it won't be worth much. The standard scenario is that you extract a written promise from your boss, for "X." Then you get transferred to a different group, or your division is taken over by another one - so you have a new management chain. "I didn't make the promise to you, your former boss did. That was then, this is now. Sorry the promise is wothless." Except usually they leave out the 'sorry' part. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
#25
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Interview for a machine shop position
On Thu, 18 May 2006 20:32:42 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, xray
quickly quoth: On Thu, 18 May 2006 07:58:17 -0700, Eric R Snow wrote: That job required roundness within .00003" TIR. Size however within .0001" TIR. I'm a garage hacker and have no idea or desire to achive that level of tolerance. Just curious, can some machines do that just from knobs and such or does it require more finesse? Yes, and you need to know the machine well enough to work around any slop, wobbliness, or wear it has. Adjust-out all you can and know where the rest is so you can factor it in. Being a novice on these things, I had an impression that the last pass of removal should be a couple thou or more. No truth? My tools are unlikely to get into the .0001 range, but I'm curious about the techniques that might make it semi-possible if I ever need it. You need sub-RCH-marked dials and a light touch, X. Bifocals and/or magnifying lenses help, too. A really good "feel" for calipers/mikes helps as well. --'nother hacker. -------------------------------------------------------- Murphy was an Optimist ---------------------------- http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development |
#26
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Interview for a machine shop position
Mark sez:
" Bugger, I suppose that means I'm a toolmaker. And there I was thinking that I was a professional electrical engineer, who grew into and got burned out by computers and just wanted to make swarf as a hobby to keep his sanity." Sorry about that - your having to switch from Prof. EE to swarf making as a means to keep your sanity. The PC has done more to lower technical wages in the world, and increase stress in the workplace, than anything that has come along since Tesla. The problem is that anyone who can memorize the location of a few plastic pads on a keyboard and run another's software is "Engineer". No! That's not even the real problem. The real problem is that employers are generally not engineering competent themselves and can't tell an engineer from any other keyboard pecker. Thus, trained engineers are held back because management, mostly keyboard peckers themselves, lacks the technical sense to know the difference. It seems the MIS departments of large companies are pretty much responsible for engineering decisions these days. Don't even get me started on CNC! CNC proves what "management" has long suspected - there is no need for technically trained personnel; they can all be replaced by PC operators. Bob Swinney "Mark Rand" wrote in message ... On Thu, 18 May 2006 15:22:56 -0400, "Robin S." wrote: P.S. Signs of a toolmaker: heavy drinking habit, arrogance, vulgarity, healthy distaste for engineers, constantly dirty snot, intolerance of bright lights, social ineptitude, inability to do any more than just less than the required amount of work to complete a job, nervous ticks, jumpiness, partial/complete deafness, having the compulsion to stare blankly at everyone passing by, etc. Mark Rand RTFM |
#27
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Interview for a machine shop position
Mark sez:
" Bugger, I suppose that means I'm a toolmaker. And there I was thinking that I was a professional electrical engineer, who grew into and got burned out by computers and just wanted to make swarf as a hobby to keep his sanity." Sorry about that - your having to switch from Prof. EE to swarf making as a means to keep your sanity. The PC has done more to lower technical wages in the world, and increase stress in the workplace, than anything that has come along since Tesla. The problem is that anyone who can memorize the location of a few plastic pads on a keyboard and run another's software is "Engineer". No! That's not even the real problem. The real problem is that employers are generally not engineering competent themselves and can't tell an engineer from any other keyboard pecker. Thus, trained engineers are held back because management, mostly keyboard peckers themselves, lacks the technical sense to know the difference. It seems the MIS departments of large companies are pretty much responsible for engineering decisions these days. Don't even get me started on CNC! CNC proves what "management" has long suspected - there is no need for technically trained personnel; they can all be replaced by PC operators. Bob Swinney "Mark Rand" wrote in message ... On Thu, 18 May 2006 15:22:56 -0400, "Robin S." wrote: P.S. Signs of a toolmaker: heavy drinking habit, arrogance, vulgarity, healthy distaste for engineers, constantly dirty snot, intolerance of bright lights, social ineptitude, inability to do any more than just less than the required amount of work to complete a job, nervous ticks, jumpiness, partial/complete deafness, having the compulsion to stare blankly at everyone passing by, etc. Mark Rand RTFM |
#28
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Interview for a machine shop position
I'm a garage hacker and have no idea or desire to achive that level of tolerance. Just curious, can some machines do that just from knobs and such or does it require more finesse? Most people that claim to be holding those tolerances are full of crap. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody, cause obviously it is needed for some tools, and can be done. But, it cannot be done in a general shop environment day in and day out. I am presently a shop owner. Before I started my own shop, I ran one for my boss. I've don interviews with tool makers that will tour the shop and say they'll have no problems holding .00005. I've seen 2 types of people make those claims. Type one actually THINKS he can hold that tolerance, and will try to do it on every job that walks by. Even if +- .05 would do. You cannot afford to hire that guy. He'll take 3 times longer to do any job than is needed. Type two hasn't learned how to use a micrometer, and isn't capable of counting decimal places. He's just trying to get a job and doesn't think you'll notice that he doesn't have a clue. Dave, who has NEVER held closer than .0002, and can't think of why he'd need to. |
#29
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Interview for a machine shop position
jim rozen wrote:
In article , Robert Swinney says... Yeah! Because a sweatshop by any other name is still . . . . a sweatshop. Whatever job you end up taking, get *all* points of interest in writing. Randy Not for nothing, but that (requiring terms in writing) is the quickest way to not get hired. Granted in this case it's a good litmus test, but employers and managers get really, really, antsy whenever they have to promise an employee something in writing. They get worried that they might be held to it, and won't be able to change their mind whenever they feel like it in the future. Bosses hate that. Another issue with the idea is, even if they *do* put a promise in writing, it won't be worth much. The standard scenario is that you extract a written promise from your boss, for "X." Then you get transferred to a different group, or your division is taken over by another one - so you have a new management chain. "I didn't make the promise to you, your former boss did. That was then, this is now. Sorry the promise is wothless." Except usually they leave out the 'sorry' part. Jim In my case the promises weren't *my* demands but were offered out of the blue. I had a decent job already and these promises were the only reason I took the new job. Randy |
#30
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Interview for a machine shop position
"Dave Lyon" wrote in message news:yFlbg.952791$x96.450759@attbi_s72... I'm a garage hacker and have no idea or desire to achive that level of tolerance. Just curious, can some machines do that just from knobs and such or does it require more finesse? Most people that claim to be holding those tolerances are full of crap. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody, cause obviously it is needed for some tools, and can be done. But, it cannot be done in a general shop environment day in and day out. And therein lies the rub. Day in a day out. You can finesse some pretty tight numbers out of most machines, you just don't want to have to do it all the time. Most surface grinders can reliably hit .0002 over a smallish area. Manual jig borers have dials graduated in .0001 or .0002 (it's been a while since I've seen one). Cylindrical grinders can hit those numbers reliably. There's basically no chance that a Bridgeport/knockoff can reliably hit .001" in a production setting, and it has to be setup correctly to hit even .001". As far as why you'd want to, high-speed dies require some pretty tight numbers. Automotive engines require very tight numbers over hundreds of thousands of parts. I'd assume there are others ;-) I think a lot of people don't appreciate how far off things become when you have the right tools to measure them. The way holes are curved, plates are not flat, cylinders are not round or straight, etc. Regards, Robin |
#31
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Interview for a machine shop position
On Fri, 19 May 2006 14:24:11 -0400, Robin S. wrote:
There's basically no chance that a Bridgeport/knockoff can reliably hit .001" in a production setting, and it has to be setup correctly to hit even .001". I am so glad to see someone write this. I've been struggling to get better than that on some finish work. Am I just expecting too much? Everything seems adjusted right, but I'm getting movement from....somewhere. Nature of the beast? Flex? Cosmic rays? What makes that be the inherent limitation of a tool type? I think a lot of people don't appreciate how far off things become when you have the right tools to measure them. The way holes are curved, plates are not flat, cylinders are not round or straight, etc. Ah, kind of like measuring pollutants. Used to be that parts-per-billion weren't measurable, now people panic because something is there. Always was, we just didn't have a fine enough tool to see it before. |
#32
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Interview for a machine shop position
"Dave Hinz" wrote in message ... I am so glad to see someone write this. I've been struggling to get better than that on some finish work. Am I just expecting too much? Everything seems adjusted right, but I'm getting movement from....somewhere. Nature of the beast? Flex? Cosmic rays? What makes that be the inherent limitation of a tool type? Are you having trouble hitting a thou on one-off work or just production work? With care you should be able to hit a thou on one-off work, depending on the work you're trying to do. The major weakness of the Bridgeport and knockoffs is the two-way knuckle joint on which the head sits. These joints are the bane of the machinist who just wants to mill square faces and drill perpendicular holes. During heavy cutting operations including facemilling, flycutting, endmilling, and boring, the head is likely to go out of square. It is absolutely necessary to square the head before doing any fine work, and I do it before starting *each* day additionally. After the knuckle joints, there are the brakes and gibs on the axes. While it is good practice to always use the brake, one should understand that neglecting the gibs will result in the axes changing location/orientation when the brake is used. When the gibs are properly set, the brake should have only minimal effect on the position and squareness of an axis. This can be easily checked using a dial test indicator. I'd say paying attention to the knee break is of significant importance. Always square the machine, and run it, with the knee locked (the lever sits below the knee crank, on the knee). Due to the weight of the knee and table, having the gib incorrectly adjusted can result in major squareness and vibration issues. Obviously the x and y axes gibs must be properly adjusted, and their respective brakes must always be used when the axis is not being actuated during a cut. When the x and y gibs are adjusted incorrectly, the table can be rocked by hand without too much trouble. This will obviously cause accuracy, surface finish and cutter life issues. Lastly, don't cheat with the quill - always cut with the quill retracted up in the head (you need the exercise anyway). HTH. Regards, Robin |
#33
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Interview for a machine shop position
On Fri, 19 May 2006 16:14:05 -0400, Robin S. wrote:
"Dave Hinz" wrote in message ... I am so glad to see someone write this. I've been struggling to get better than that on some finish work. Am I just expecting too much? Everything seems adjusted right, but I'm getting movement from....somewhere. Nature of the beast? Flex? Cosmic rays? What makes that be the inherent limitation of a tool type? Are you having trouble hitting a thou on one-off work or just production work? With care you should be able to hit a thou on one-off work, depending on the work you're trying to do. One-off, I don't "do" production - this is how I relax or try to. X & Y are fine but vertical is where I'm getting movement and I don't know why. The major weakness of the Bridgeport and knockoffs is the two-way knuckle joint on which the head sits. These joints are the bane of the machinist who just wants to mill square faces and drill perpendicular holes. During heavy cutting operations including facemilling, flycutting, endmilling, and boring, the head is likely to go out of square. It is absolutely necessary to square the head before doing any fine work, and I do it before starting *each* day additionally. Oh. I haven't done anything since I leveled the machine after moving it in, checked, it was square and I forgot about the whole deal. But how can that move? (I've got the rockwell as in this pictu ) http://www.lathes.co.uk/rockwellmillers/ After the knuckle joints, there are the brakes and gibs on the axes. While it is good practice to always use the brake, one should understand that neglecting the gibs will result in the axes changing location/orientation when the brake is used. I have adjusted the gibs to be snug, the wheels can be turned with small effort but there seems to be no play. When the gibs are properly set, the brake should have only minimal effect on the position and squareness of an axis. This can be easily checked using a dial test indicator. Ah, will try that. So that's how I can measure how much play is in the system, which gets taken up by putting the brake on. Makes sense.. I'd say paying attention to the knee break is of significant importance. Always square the machine, and run it, with the knee locked (the lever sits below the knee crank, on the knee). Due to the weight of the knee and table, having the gib incorrectly adjusted can result in major squareness and vibration issues. That's the area I'm having trouble so I'll go over that one again, first. Interestingly enough, the original brake isn't there, and there's a bolt in it's hole. I should investigate that and make a replacement if that's my problem. I should make a replacement either way, I think. Obviously the x and y axes gibs must be properly adjusted, and their respective brakes must always be used when the axis is not being actuated during a cut. When the x and y gibs are adjusted incorrectly, the table can be rocked by hand without too much trouble. This will obviously cause accuracy, surface finish and cutter life issues. Right. I haven't been locking the Y when I'm making a cut along X, because I'm just going to move Y next. For making a surface flat, do I need to? Actually, that'll give me vertical movement if there's any play, won't it. Lastly, don't cheat with the quill - always cut with the quill retracted up in the head (you need the exercise anyway). Yes. That was drummed into me quite effectively. Of course I didn't believe it at first so I tried it the other way and learned that something that big, yes, can flex. Thank you for your time and advice, Robin. Dave Hinz |
#34
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Interview for a machine shop position
In article , Robert Swinney
says... Right on, Jim. Whoever blurted the "get in writing" statement, needs a good dose of reality. :^) It's honestly not a bad idea. I've done it myself on some rare occasions. Mostly in the case where the boss didn't quite seem to know *what* he wanted me to do - but the only sure thing was, it would be something different the next day. And that failure to achieve our group goals was a direct result of the thing I did yesterday, which was a Big Mistake (tm). Also it was the thing he instructed me to do, the day before that. Repeat loop, endlessly. Putting goals in writing and getting everyone concerned to read them and agree to them, can help in a situation like that. Often when managers have to order their thoughts and prioritize their needs, it helps them and makes the work more efficient. Sort of like "is this what you want me to do?" "Yes. But wait, No. Do this instead. No wait, that's not it. I really want *this*." Then when there's the next days search for the One To Blame (tm) the written list comes out. "See, it says right here this is what you wanted done. You agreed to it." Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
#35
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Interview for a machine shop position
On Fri, 19 May 2006 15:40:15 GMT, "Dave Lyon"
wrote: Type one actually THINKS he can hold that tolerance, and will try to do it on every job that walks by. Even if +- .05 would do. You cannot afford to hire that guy. He'll take 3 times longer to do any job than is needed. I have a machinist friend like this. Vietnamese, one of the finest machinists I know. But he constantly strives for a 16 finish when a 125 will be acceptable. Every item he produces is a real work of art..the problem being he is being paid to turn and burn and get it to the client. And he owns his own business, and has no employees because he expects them to do the same..but he is only being paid for the turn and burn, so cannot pay them according to his requirements. He and Ive gone round and round about this..and he ultimately admits to being too picky, Shrug. This is the same guy that needs money..has a shop full of rebult Bridgeports to sell..but because he paid top dollar for BPs when they were dear..cannot bring himself to sell any at todays market pricing. So they will sit and collect dust until he dies and everything goes to auction, where the widow gets pennies on the dollar. anyone want to buy some nice bridgeports for $8,000 each? Gunner, shaking his head "If thy pride is sorely vexed when others disparage your offering, be as lamb's wool is to cold rain and the Gore-tex of Odin's raiment is to gull**** in the gale, for thy angst shall vex them not at all. Yea, they shall scorn thee all the more. Rejoice in sharing what you have to share without expectation of adoration, knowing that sharing your treasure does not diminish your treasure but enriches it." - Onni 1:33 |
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