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#1
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Phase convertor variable capacitor - actually, I think there is away...
Hi all,
Just noticed Mark Main's thread about using a variable capacitor in a phase convertor. I thought about this a while back and discussed it with Bob Swinney (Bob, sorry I haven't replied to your e-mail yet - I will, I've just been busy with other stuff for a while). I meant to do some more experimentation on the subject before I posted my thoughts here, but so far haven't got round to it. The following is I think is an interesting idea, although probably not one of any commercial value. Traditional air-spaced capacitors aren't going to work, as people have mentioned. I think I worked out that a small phase convertor would need an air-spaced variable capacitor with an area of about 6000 m2. But then I thought, what about a fake variable capacitor? In the form of a variac and a fixed capacitor? I tried it. For my experiment I used one 3/4 hp three phase motor connected to a single phase supply. I didn't feel a second motor was necessary for the initial experiment. I tried connecting capacitors through an 8 amp variac between the supply and the third leg of the motor. It worked. With a really low variac setting the motor won't start. A bit higher and it starts very slowly. At the highest setting the motor starts quickly but makes a whine when up to speed. In the middle there is a "sweet spot" where the motor runs nice and quietly. So it seems it is possible to make a form of variable capacitor using a variac and fixed capacitor. I took a few measurements and reached the following conclusions. (i) It's possible to adjust the voltage between the third leg and one of the supply legs until it is equal to the supply voltage (I didn't attempt to measure any phase differences). (ii) The motor is noticeably quieter when these voltages are equal. (iii) The voltage across the motor is definitely not linear with variac position. (iv) Attepting to achieve equal voltages using various capacitor values it seemed that the square of the capacitor voltage times the capacitance was a constant under constant motor load. Then I had another idea. I thought it would be nice if the system regulated itself, so that a drawing a higher current from the convertor would increase the variac setting. I figured that it might be possible by rewinding a three phase motor with a few turns of thick wire and connecting it in series with the load, then connecting the motor shaft to the variac and also to a torsion spring. Bigger load - more current drawn - more torque developed in rewound motor - rotor moves a little further against torsion spring - variac setting increases. Obviously this would be far too expensive to build commercially, and hard to "tune", but fascinating if it could be made it work. Here's a little diagram of the idea: http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt22/..._regulator.jpg Enjoy. My head hurts and I've been puzzling this out for a while! Best wishes, Chris |
#2
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Phase convertor variable capacitor - actually, I think there is a
In article , Christopher Tidy says...
IIn the form of a variac and a fixed capacitor? That's a really cool idea. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
#3
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Phase convertor variable capacitor - actually, I think there is a way...
Christopher Tidy writes: position. (iv) Attepting to achieve equal voltages using various capacitor values it seemed that the square of the capacitor voltage times the capacitance was a constant under constant motor load. If the relationship follows Q = (C * E^2)/2 then it sounds like that relationship should be expected. Assuming thats true and turning it around, the equation suggests the voltage follows the square root of the power, so shouldn't vary widely with a varying motor load. Did you make any measurements which might speak to how the cap voltage varies with load? Or perhaps of more interest, measurements of the generated leg voltage? I think the feedback in your model might be working against the wrong variables though, I think the variac perhaps ought to be adjusted against the phase current difference between the generated leg and one of the other two- so the system always tends towards balance. Its an interesting idea though. Greg |
#4
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Phase convertor variable capacitor - actually, I think thereis a way...
Christopher Tidy wrote: I thought, what about a fake variable capacitor? In the form of a variac and a fixed capacitor? I tried it. Heck Chris, based on what I have seen lately you should file for a patent on that, especially with the closed-loop tuning. Myself, I'm considering an application on "Method and Apparatus for Wiping One's Own A** using the Non-Dominant Extremity". It would be just as valid as some the extortionist .. sorry, I mean 'Intellectual Property' ... firms are waving around. -- Fred R "It doesn't really take all kinds; there just *are* all kinds". Drop TROU to email. |
#5
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Phase convertor variable capacitor - actually, I think thereis a way...
Chris, this is clever. Thanks for sharing it.
Steve Christopher Tidy wrote: Hi all, Just noticed Mark Main's thread about using a variable capacitor in a phase convertor. I thought about this a while back and discussed it with Bob Swinney (Bob, sorry I haven't replied to your e-mail yet - I will, I've just been busy with other stuff for a while). I meant to do some more experimentation on the subject before I posted my thoughts here, but so far haven't got round to it. The following is I think is an interesting idea, although probably not one of any commercial value. Traditional air-spaced capacitors aren't going to work, as people have mentioned. I think I worked out that a small phase convertor would need an air-spaced variable capacitor with an area of about 6000 m2. But then I thought, what about a fake variable capacitor? In the form of a variac and a fixed capacitor? I tried it. For my experiment I used one 3/4 hp three phase motor connected to a single phase supply. I didn't feel a second motor was necessary for the initial experiment. I tried connecting capacitors through an 8 amp variac between the supply and the third leg of the motor. It worked. With a really low variac setting the motor won't start. A bit higher and it starts very slowly. At the highest setting the motor starts quickly but makes a whine when up to speed. In the middle there is a "sweet spot" where the motor runs nice and quietly. So it seems it is possible to make a form of variable capacitor using a variac and fixed capacitor. I took a few measurements and reached the following conclusions. (i) It's possible to adjust the voltage between the third leg and one of the supply legs until it is equal to the supply voltage (I didn't attempt to measure any phase differences). (ii) The motor is noticeably quieter when these voltages are equal. (iii) The voltage across the motor is definitely not linear with variac position. (iv) Attepting to achieve equal voltages using various capacitor values it seemed that the square of the capacitor voltage times the capacitance was a constant under constant motor load. Then I had another idea. I thought it would be nice if the system regulated itself, so that a drawing a higher current from the convertor would increase the variac setting. I figured that it might be possible by rewinding a three phase motor with a few turns of thick wire and connecting it in series with the load, then connecting the motor shaft to the variac and also to a torsion spring. Bigger load - more current drawn - more torque developed in rewound motor - rotor moves a little further against torsion spring - variac setting increases. Obviously this would be far too expensive to build commercially, and hard to "tune", but fascinating if it could be made it work. Here's a little diagram of the idea: http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt22/..._regulator.jpg Enjoy. My head hurts and I've been puzzling this out for a while! Best wishes, Chris |
#6
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Phase convertor variable capacitor - actually, I think thereis a way...
Fred R wrote:
Christopher Tidy wrote: I thought, what about a fake variable capacitor? In the form of a variac and a fixed capacitor? I tried it. Heck Chris, based on what I have seen lately you should file for a patent on that, especially with the closed-loop tuning. I thought about it seriously, which was why I didn't post the idea here immediately. So far I haven't uncovered evidence that it has been done before. But my financial resources are very limited, and my gut reaction is that this isn't "the one". In the 1920s with less widespread availability of three phase, cheaper labour and more skilled craftsmen, it might have stood a chance. But now I think that at the most it will become a curiousity, not a big thing. If I have time I may build a prototype and do a write-up on a website, but I don't think this will make money. You have to pick your battles. One day I'll find "the one". Chris |
#7
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Phase convertor variable capacitor - actually, I think there is a way...
patent or not, it was a very creative and profound idea.
i On Thu, 18 May 2006 00:22:31 +0000, Christopher Tidy wrote: Fred R wrote: Christopher Tidy wrote: I thought, what about a fake variable capacitor? In the form of a variac and a fixed capacitor? I tried it. Heck Chris, based on what I have seen lately you should file for a patent on that, especially with the closed-loop tuning. I thought about it seriously, which was why I didn't post the idea here immediately. So far I haven't uncovered evidence that it has been done before. But my financial resources are very limited, and my gut reaction is that this isn't "the one". In the 1920s with less widespread availability of three phase, cheaper labour and more skilled craftsmen, it might have stood a chance. But now I think that at the most it will become a curiousity, not a big thing. If I have time I may build a prototype and do a write-up on a website, but I don't think this will make money. You have to pick your battles. One day I'll find "the one". Chris |
#8
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Phase convertor variable capacitor - actually, I think thereis a way...
According to Steve Smith :
Chris, this is clever. Thanks for sharing it. I agree. It would be interesting to see the phase relationships measured. And it would be particularly interesting to see tests of the self-adjustor. Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#9
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Phase convertor variable capacitor - actually, I think there is a way...
On Wed, 17 May 2006 22:44:07 GMT, Fred R "spam
wrote: Christopher Tidy wrote: I thought, what about a fake variable capacitor? In the form of a variac and a fixed capacitor? I tried it. Heck Chris, based on what I have seen lately you should file for a patent on that, especially with the closed-loop tuning. Patents aren't nearly as easy to get in the UK and Europe as they are in the U.S. Examiners there still actually examine. In the U.S. they do a cursory examination for obvious infringement or prior art, then take the attitude of "let 'em sort it out in court". |
#10
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Phase convertor variable capacitor - actually, I think there is a way...
On Wed, 17 May 2006 21:07:28 +0000, Christopher Tidy
wrote: Hi all, Just noticed Mark Main's thread about using a variable capacitor in a phase convertor. I thought about this a while back and discussed it with Bob Swinney (Bob, sorry I haven't replied to your e-mail yet - I will, I've just been busy with other stuff for a while). I meant to do some more experimentation on the subject before I posted my thoughts here, but so far haven't got round to it. The following is I think is an interesting idea, although probably not one of any commercial value. Traditional air-spaced capacitors aren't going to work, as people have mentioned. I think I worked out that a small phase convertor would need an air-spaced variable capacitor with an area of about 6000 m2. But then I thought, what about a fake variable capacitor? In the form of a variac and a fixed capacitor? I tried it. For my experiment I used one 3/4 hp three phase motor connected to a single phase supply. I didn't feel a second motor was necessary for the initial experiment. I tried connecting capacitors through an 8 amp variac between the supply and the third leg of the motor. It worked. With a really low variac setting the motor won't start. A bit higher and it starts very slowly. At the highest setting the motor starts quickly but makes a whine when up to speed. In the middle there is a "sweet spot" where the motor runs nice and quietly. So it seems it is possible to make a form of variable capacitor using a variac and fixed capacitor. I took a few measurements and reached the following conclusions. (i) It's possible to adjust the voltage between the third leg and one of the supply legs until it is equal to the supply voltage (I didn't attempt to measure any phase differences). (ii) The motor is noticeably quieter when these voltages are equal. (iii) The voltage across the motor is definitely not linear with variac position. (iv) Attepting to achieve equal voltages using various capacitor values it seemed that the square of the capacitor voltage times the capacitance was a constant under constant motor load. Then I had another idea. I thought it would be nice if the system regulated itself, so that a drawing a higher current from the convertor would increase the variac setting. I figured that it might be possible by rewinding a three phase motor with a few turns of thick wire and connecting it in series with the load, then connecting the motor shaft to the variac and also to a torsion spring. Bigger load - more current drawn - more torque developed in rewound motor - rotor moves a little further against torsion spring - variac setting increases. Obviously this would be far too expensive to build commercially, and hard to "tune", but fascinating if it could be made it work. Here's a little diagram of the idea: http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt22/..._regulator.jpg Enjoy. My head hurts and I've been puzzling this out for a while! Best wishes, Chris Neat idea, Chris. The closed-loop control dynamics could get interesting, but nothing that couldn't be sorted out. |
#11
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Phase convertor variable capacitor - actually, I think there is a way...
On Wed, 17 May 2006 21:07:28 +0000, Christopher Tidy
wrote: Hi all, Just noticed Mark Main's thread about using a variable capacitor in a phase convertor. I thought about this a while back and discussed it with Bob Swinney (Bob, sorry I haven't replied to your e-mail yet - I will, I've just been busy with other stuff for a while). I meant to do some more experimentation on the subject before I posted my thoughts here, but so far haven't got round to it. The following is I think is an interesting idea, although probably not one of any commercial value. Traditional air-spaced capacitors aren't going to work, as people have mentioned. I think I worked out that a small phase convertor would need an air-spaced variable capacitor with an area of about 6000 m2. But then I thought, what about a fake variable capacitor? In the form of a variac and a fixed capacitor? I tried it. For my experiment I used one 3/4 hp three phase motor connected to a single phase supply. I didn't feel a second motor was necessary for the initial experiment. I tried connecting capacitors through an 8 amp variac between the supply and the third leg of the motor. It worked. With a really low variac setting the motor won't start. A bit higher and it starts very slowly. At the highest setting the motor starts quickly but makes a whine when up to speed. In the middle there is a "sweet spot" where the motor runs nice and quietly. So it seems it is possible to make a form of variable capacitor using a variac and fixed capacitor. I took a few measurements and reached the following conclusions. (i) It's possible to adjust the voltage between the third leg and one of the supply legs until it is equal to the supply voltage (I didn't attempt to measure any phase differences). (ii) The motor is noticeably quieter when these voltages are equal. (iii) The voltage across the motor is definitely not linear with variac position. (iv) Attepting to achieve equal voltages using various capacitor values it seemed that the square of the capacitor voltage times the capacitance was a constant under constant motor load. Then I had another idea. I thought it would be nice if the system regulated itself, so that a drawing a higher current from the convertor would increase the variac setting. I figured that it might be possible by rewinding a three phase motor with a few turns of thick wire and connecting it in series with the load, then connecting the motor shaft to the variac and also to a torsion spring. Bigger load - more current drawn - more torque developed in rewound motor - rotor moves a little further against torsion spring - variac setting increases. Obviously this would be far too expensive to build commercially, and hard to "tune", but fascinating if it could be made it work. Here's a little diagram of the idea: http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt22/..._regulator.jpg Enjoy. My head hurts and I've been puzzling this out for a while! Best wishes, Chris A slightly different way of looking at the problem. The apparent value of a fixed capacitor can be varied by feeding it through a transformer. For a 1:2 step up transformer the voltage on the capacitor is doubled so the energy stored in the capacitor is multiplied by four (CxVsquared). With a reasonably efficient transformer, measured at the primary, this appears at the primary as the primary inductance shunted by a pure capacitor which stores the same amount of energy. Because this is at half the secondary voltage the apparent value is four times the value of the secondary capacitance. The capacitance value is multiplied by the square of the turns ratio. This can be turned into a true variable C by the use of a Variac to feed the fixed capacitor. The impedance of the magnetising current taken by the Variac needs to be much higher than the impedance of the intended capacitor. This is easily checked by comparing the Variac magnetising current with the current drawn by the capacitor at a similar voltage. Because Variacs are usually step down devices the apparent capacitance value will be reduced by the step down ratio squared. With a variable capacitor a fixed transformer ratio can be used but, if 100uF is needed from a 1000pF variable, the values are pretty extreme - more than 300:1 stepup ratio and, with 200V in, more than 50Kv across the capacitor! Jim * -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service -------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access |
#12
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Phase convertor variable capacitor - actually, I think there is a way...
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#13
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Phase convertor variable capacitor - actually, I think there is a way...
In case you don't already know, there are motorized variac models
available for numerous types of applications. You're application might require a simple/small circuit to operate a small gearmotor acting as a servo motor. I have an unsual variac device that regulates/adjusts the AC output voltage. It's labeled as a Regulated AC Power Supply, and is switchable for either 120 or 240VAC output with an input line voltage of 120VAC. It's not line isolated, but a cool little unit. The sense/motor drive circuit is only a few square inches, and the motor is a small DC hobby-type motor. A geartrain allows the small motor to adjust the variac. Another variac I got from a surplus dealer has a small AC gearmotor to adjust the variac, and it waits for a project to surface, and I'll need to implement a sense/drive circuit for it when that time comes. I dunno what type of equipment it was from originally. WB ............... Christopher Tidy wrote: Hi all, Just noticed Mark Main's thread about using a variable capacitor in a phase convertor. I thought about this a while back and discussed it with Bob Swinney (Bob, sorry I haven't replied to your e-mail yet - I will, I've just been busy with other stuff for a while). I meant to do some more experimentation on the subject before I posted my thoughts here, but so far haven't got round to it. The following is I think is an interesting idea, although probably not one of any commercial value. Traditional air-spaced capacitors aren't going to work, as people have mentioned. I think I worked out that a small phase convertor would need an air-spaced variable capacitor with an area of about 6000 m2. But then I thought, what about a fake variable capacitor? In the form of a variac and a fixed capacitor? I tried it. For my experiment I used one 3/4 hp three phase motor connected to a single phase supply. I didn't feel a second motor was necessary for the initial experiment. I tried connecting capacitors through an 8 amp variac between the supply and the third leg of the motor. It worked. With a really low variac setting the motor won't start. A bit higher and it starts very slowly. At the highest setting the motor starts quickly but makes a whine when up to speed. In the middle there is a "sweet spot" where the motor runs nice and quietly. So it seems it is possible to make a form of variable capacitor using a variac and fixed capacitor. I took a few measurements and reached the following conclusions. (i) It's possible to adjust the voltage between the third leg and one of the supply legs until it is equal to the supply voltage (I didn't attempt to measure any phase differences). (ii) The motor is noticeably quieter when these voltages are equal. (iii) The voltage across the motor is definitely not linear with variac position. (iv) Attepting to achieve equal voltages using various capacitor values it seemed that the square of the capacitor voltage times the capacitance was a constant under constant motor load. Then I had another idea. I thought it would be nice if the system regulated itself, so that a drawing a higher current from the convertor would increase the variac setting. I figured that it might be possible by rewinding a three phase motor with a few turns of thick wire and connecting it in series with the load, then connecting the motor shaft to the variac and also to a torsion spring. Bigger load - more current drawn - more torque developed in rewound motor - rotor moves a little further against torsion spring - variac setting increases. Obviously this would be far too expensive to build commercially, and hard to "tune", but fascinating if it could be made it work. Here's a little diagram of the idea: http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt22/..._regulator.jpg Enjoy. My head hurts and I've been puzzling this out for a while! Best wishes, Chris |
#14
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Phase convertor variable capacitor - actually, I think there is a way...
On Thu, 18 May 2006 14:48:43 GMT, John Husvar
wrote: In article , wrote: A slightly different way of looking at the problem. The apparent value of a fixed capacitor can be varied by feeding it through a transformer. For a 1:2 step up transformer the voltage on the capacitor is doubled so the energy stored in the capacitor is multiplied by four (CxVsquared). With a reasonably efficient transformer, measured at the primary, this appears at the primary as the primary inductance shunted by a pure capacitor which stores the same amount of energy. Because this is at half the secondary voltage the apparent value is four times the value of the secondary capacitance. The capacitance value is multiplied by the square of the turns ratio. This can be turned into a true variable C by the use of a Variac to feed the fixed capacitor. The impedance of the magnetising current taken by the Variac needs to be much higher than the impedance of the intended capacitor. This is easily checked by comparing the Variac magnetising current with the current drawn by the capacitor at a similar voltage. Because Variacs are usually step down devices the apparent capacitance value will be reduced by the step down ratio squared. With a variable capacitor a fixed transformer ratio can be used but, if 100uF is needed from a 1000pF variable, the values are pretty extreme - more than 300:1 stepup ratio and, with 200V in, more than 50Kv across the capacitor! Jim I'm stretching long unused knowledge here, but hasn't the OP just created a big tank circuit to tune the created leg?. The added inductance of the transformer would tend to even out the current lead of the caps and balance the created leg's current flow in relation to the other two. Or am I totally offbase? (which wouldn't be a first by any means) This is the reason for specifying that the Variac impedance be much higher than the capacitor impedance - both of course measured at supply frequency. So far as the motor is concerned the the apparent capacitative impedance is the reflected capacitative impedance paralleled by the inductive impedance of the variac primary. Since this is a leading power factor paralled by a lagging power factor this inductance slightly increases the nett capacitative impedance. This means that the effective reflected capacitance will be slighly less than the expected value. It is of course true that a variac plus capacitor forms a tuned circuit but, for the conditions specified, this is resonant at frequency much lower than supply frequency. It is no more and no less a resonant system than the tuned circuits normally formed by the motor inductance and the normally added capacitors. These comments apply to the use of the Variac to trim the capacitance value - i.e. with the Variac set to the upper half of its coverage. If the Variac output is set to a very low value the impedance of the reflected capacitance may no longer be much smaller than the Variac primary impedance and this reduces the value of the apparent reflected capacitance. The limiting case is when the step down ratio is so large that the reflected capacitative impedance is equal to the Variac primary impedance. In this case it is resonant at supply frequency and the nett reflected capacitance will be zero i.e. unity power factor. Jim * -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service -------http://www.NewsDemon.com------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access |
#15
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Phase convertor variable capacitor - actually, I think there is a way...
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#16
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Phase convertor variable capacitor - actually, I think thereis a way...
Hi all,
Thanks for your compliments and feedback. So far I've only performed one basic experiment, which shows that this arrangement can form a variable phase convertor of sorts. I haven't attempted to measure the impedance of the variac, or to take measurements with the motor running under load (except to establish that it does run under load without apparent ill effects). Once I've created a working RPC I'm hoping to perform more experiments. My progress has been slowed a little by the need to wind a 240 V - 415 V autotransformer, as a 415 V RPC is rather more useful in the UK than a 240 V one. Now that the weather is warm enough to work in the shed comfortably I should have this finished soon. Bob sent me an interesting article about how a specially-wound autotransformer can be used to achieve good balance in a phase convertor. The first terminal of the motor is connected to the first end of the transformer winding, the second terminal to a centre tap, and the third terminal through a capacitor to one of a series of taps between the centre of the transformer winding and the second end. So it seems someone has had a similar, if not identical, idea to mine. The advantage of using a variac, it seems, is that it avoids the need to design and build the special autotransformer. I'm still keen to have a go at building the automatic balacing unit, although it will be quite a challenge. I like the way that it is an entirely mechanical solution to the problem. We'll have to see if I have time. What I am very tempted to do anyway is to add a variac, capacitor and handwheel to my RPC, so that it can be balanced by hand. My only concern is that if I increase the variac setting while the RPC is under load, then forget to reduce it when the load is removed, the over voltage could damage the idler motor. In my experimental set-up it was quite easy to adjust the variac to give over 300 V across a motor, so in a 415 V RPC it might be possible to accidentally subject the motor to 550 V, say. 300 V didn't appear to damage the 3/4 hp motor I used for the experiment, but then it can also be wired for 415 V, so I imagine the insulation will be designed to cope with it. Whether a 415 V motor would safely cope with 550 V for a short time though, I don't know. Any thoughts? I'll let you know how the project progresses. If anyone else does experiments on adjustable phase convertors, do let me know. I'd be very interested to discuss the results. Best wishes, Chris |
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