I hope to be shopping for a mill/drill before too long (gotta bribe
SWMBO w/ a new washer/dryer set immediately beforehand, though!) and have
been struggling with a few things.
I have been looking at the small vertical mill that HF and Grizzly sell,
but am kinda short on space out in the garage/shop, but the price isn't too
bad, though the tooling will be almost as much, I'm sure. There are a few
more expensive mill/drills out there and I wanted to get an idea of any
useful differences between them.

Still trying to figure out if a square column or a round one is better.
I know that a round column requires realignment every time you move the
head, but what are the other main issues?

The price differences between many of the models leaves me a bit fuddled
(this is new territory to me, not having owned any machinery like this
before) and I'm looking for the most bang for my buck, and the similarities
between all the imports in my price range makes it hard to figure out what
should be most important to me.

My uses will mostly be small projects, a lot of aluminum, and automotive
things, but nothing too incredibly big. Of course, once you give a woman a
purse right away it's never big enough, and the same thing with men and
tools....

Given the choice, I would get a square column mill/drill. You might want to
consider this one, now being imported by various resellers (Grizzly, etc.):

http://www.lathemaster.com/SIEG%20X3...%20MACHINE.htm

It is bigger than those minimills that HF, Grizzly, Homier, Micromark, etc.
sell, but smaller than a typical mill/drill.

Also, various resellers (eg. Wholesale Tool) import this square column
mill/drill:

http://www.lathemaster.com/HEAVYDUTY...E%207045FG.htm

Make sure to get one with an R8 spindle and then you can use Bridgeport
style tooling, easily found on ebay and the usual suppliers (MSC, Enco, J&L,
McMaster-Carr, Penn Tool, etc.) at very modest prices. You'll easily be
able to find used US made tooling and new imported tooling at very
reasonable prices.

You can get a used Bridgeport style mill for the same price, but for home
use I'm not sure I would bother. If you decide to get one, you can easily
find a reasonably priced used one (not necessarily a genuine Bridgeport, but
a clone) on ebay in your area that can be inexpensively transported and
placed in your garage by a flatbed tow truck.

I am NOT affiliated with Lathemaster and have NO idea whether they are good
or not.


"carl mciver" wrote in message
ink.net...
I hope to be shopping for a mill/drill before too long (gotta bribe
SWMBO w/ a new washer/dryer set immediately beforehand, though!) and have
been struggling with a few things.
I have been looking at the small vertical mill that HF and Grizzly
sell,
but am kinda short on space out in the garage/shop, but the price isn't
too
bad, though the tooling will be almost as much, I'm sure. There are a few
more expensive mill/drills out there and I wanted to get an idea of any
useful differences between them.

Still trying to figure out if a square column or a round one is better.
I know that a round column requires realignment every time you move the
head, but what are the other main issues?

The price differences between many of the models leaves me a bit
fuddled
(this is new territory to me, not having owned any machinery like this
before) and I'm looking for the most bang for my buck, and the
similarities
between all the imports in my price range makes it hard to figure out what
should be most important to me.

My uses will mostly be small projects, a lot of aluminum, and
automotive
things, but nothing too incredibly big. Of course, once you give a woman
a
purse right away it's never big enough, and the same thing with men and
tools....

You got real lucky as in last month Grizz started importing
Sieg X3 mill - it sits squarely (NPI) between mini-mill and
MUCH larger squre/round column mills you mentioned.

Take a look: http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0463

That is the mill to get for an HSM.

AL wrote:
Given the choice, I would get a square column mill/drill. You might want to
consider this one, now being imported by various resellers (Grizzly, etc.):

http://www.lathemaster.com/SIEG%20X3...%20MACHINE.htm

It is bigger than those minimills that HF, Grizzly, Homier, Micromark, etc.
sell, but smaller than a typical mill/drill.

Also, various resellers (eg. Wholesale Tool) import this square column
mill/drill:

http://www.lathemaster.com/HEAVYDUTY...E%207045FG.htm

Make sure to get one with an R8 spindle and then you can use Bridgeport
style tooling, easily found on ebay and the usual suppliers (MSC, Enco, J&L,
McMaster-Carr, Penn Tool, etc.) at very modest prices. You'll easily be
able to find used US made tooling and new imported tooling at very
reasonable prices.

I think there are only 1 or 2 companies that make full sized Mill drills
everyone else imports them.

Link number 2 is a rong fu RF-40 rebadged

I've been looking at mill Drills too and what i've found is that the OEM
for most of the importers seems ot eb a company called RONG FU

the 2 most commonly seen belt drive mill/drills are the RF-25 and RF-31
and the geared head one like the one above in the lathemaster catalog is
the RF40 and the JFC-45 is its bigger brother (Large square column)

and from the RF website

"Description:
Except the main manufacturing business, we also buy and export all kinds
of machines tools for customers. You are most welcome to ring us for
more details. The products will cover METAL WORKING, WOOD WORKING
machinery and devices, such as Milling Machine, Drill Presses, Lathe,
Grinders, Tools, etc... Please contact our agent for more information
"

Up here in canada that would eb the source of the busybee Craftex
products as a full line or King Canada

they get bought by RF then retouched to busybees name and cosmetics then
shipped over

As an example

http://www.kingcanada.com/Products.htm?CD=36

look towards the bottom king even kept the "Numbers" of the equivalent
Rongfu mill

Get the square column!!!!! And,if at all possible, get a knee mill.
They do have bench models, I think. That realignment thing is a major
issue as far as I am concerned.---- Maybe it's because I don't plan far
enough ahead? For what it's worth, I only use the spindle for Z
movement when I am drilling or boring. (Get power Z if you can!) I use
the knee for Z movement when I am machining to a spec. and for down
feeding when I am feeding end mills.
I know that the price differences are confusing. Currently, I have
been looking at 14" X 40 Lathes. I can get one for $3,000 or I can get
one for $10,000. So I built a little Excell spreadsheet to help me
"see" the differences. Spindle bore and weight seem to be two good
indicators there.
I consider the vertical mill and the lathe to be lifelong
investments, so if at all possible, try to get your hands on the tools
on your "short list" before you actually plunk down the money. Even if
it takes a couple of trips to do it.
I have never seen the catalog descriptions say such things as
"plastic knobs and handles", "soft screws and bolts", "lot's of play in
the gibs", "hard to adjust", etc., but 5 minutes in front of the machine
can tell you a lot, even if it isn't plugged in.
From my experience on this newsgroup, I'll bet that if you get your
list assembled, tell folks approximately where you live and ask for
input, you'll find plenty of places to visit.

Pete Stanaitis
-----------------------------

carl mciver wrote:

I hope to be shopping for a mill/drill before too long (gotta bribe
SWMBO w/ a new washer/dryer set immediately beforehand, though!) and have
been struggling with a few things.
I have been looking at the small vertical mill that HF and Grizzly sell,
but am kinda short on space out in the garage/shop, but the price isn't too
bad, though the tooling will be almost as much, I'm sure. There are a few
more expensive mill/drills out there and I wanted to get an idea of any
useful differences between them.

Still trying to figure out if a square column or a round one is better.
I know that a round column requires realignment every time you move the
head, but what are the other main issues?

The price differences between many of the models leaves me a bit fuddled
(this is new territory to me, not having owned any machinery like this
before) and I'm looking for the most bang for my buck, and the similarities
between all the imports in my price range makes it hard to figure out what
should be most important to me.

My uses will mostly be small projects, a lot of aluminum, and automotive
things, but nothing too incredibly big. Of course, once you give a woman a
purse right away it's never big enough, and the same thing with men and
tools....

I have a mill/drill with a round column. I don't find the round column
to be a big deal. I rarely have to crank the head up or down and get
the head aligned exactly the same. It may be that I am just not using
it on things that are very big. The travel on my spindle is 4.75
inches.

Dan

"spaco" wrote in message
...
| Get the square column!!!!! And,if at all possible, get a knee mill.

HF and Grizzly sell a floor model knee mill that is about $1500 that has
a tilting and swivel head, but IIRC, it's belt drive. Don't know if anyone
has any commentary about that one. I plan on raising it up so that it's
higher off the floor to get the table a good bit higher. I'd obviously
prefer a knee mill, but would like to know what I'm trading off between that
model and similarly priced bench models. For me, shipping isn't that big a
deal because I live near enough the Grizzly store in Bellingham, WA that I
can go pick it up. Hopefully getting it in and out of my F350 4x4 won't be
too horrible!


| They do have bench models, I think. That realignment thing is a major
| issue as far as I am concerned.---- Maybe it's because I don't plan far
| enough ahead? For what it's worth, I only use the spindle for Z
| movement when I am drilling or boring. (Get power Z if you can!) I use
| the knee for Z movement when I am machining to a spec. and for down
| feeding when I am feeding end mills.
| I know that the price differences are confusing. Currently, I have
| been looking at 14" X 40 Lathes. I can get one for $3,000 or I can get
| one for $10,000. So I built a little Excell spreadsheet to help me
| "see" the differences. Spindle bore and weight seem to be two good
| indicators there.

I'm working on that very thing myself, but as you learned, it's a bit
harder to populate all the fields as it sounds, due to the lack of
consistant detailed data between suppliers. How to group by equivalent
machines is also kinda tough, as there are slight differences between
different clones, as no one is really sure about who makes what machines at
the exact time I go to make my purchase. Service will obviously be a big
part of the difference, so Grizzly due to its proximity to me and good
spares service will weigh in heavily. I think comparing the downloaded
owner's manuals will tell me a lot about the differences, but I won't know
until I go to do that.

| I consider the vertical mill and the lathe to be lifelong
| investments, so if at all possible, try to get your hands on the tools
| on your "short list" before you actually plunk down the money. Even if
| it takes a couple of trips to do it.

That's pretty much the plan, but I still have practical considerations
such as available real estate, power (I plan on/expect to be staying in this
house with 150 amp service for awhile, and it has a two car garage.

| I have never seen the catalog descriptions say such things as
| "plastic knobs and handles", "soft screws and bolts", "lot's of play in
| the gibs", "hard to adjust", etc., but 5 minutes in front of the machine
| can tell you a lot, even if it isn't plugged in.

I've looked over the models at my nearby HF store, and being floor
models, I do take into account the beating they take as a floor model. It's
somewhat indicative of what I'll see over the years.

| From my experience on this newsgroup, I'll bet that if you get your
| list assembled, tell folks approximately where you live and ask for
| input, you'll find plenty of places to visit.
|
| Pete Stanaitis

I live in Everett, WA, just a bit north of Seattle. I don't want to
blow a whole day or more of vacation going to get a machine, though, as that
then becomes the equivalent of shipping expense, but all reasonable
considerations are acceptable.

Carl,


I hope to be shopping for a mill/drill before too long (gotta bribe
SWMBO w/ a new washer/dryer set immediately beforehand, though!) and have
been struggling with a few things.
I have been looking at the small vertical mill that HF and Grizzly
sell,
but am kinda short on space out in the garage/shop, but the price
isn't too
bad, though the tooling will be almost as much, I'm sure.

That depends: you probably should count on spending more on tooling than
on the machine. There are things you can do to keep it to a low roar,
and many things that you can obtain after giving your wallet a chance to
stop thumping.


There are a
few
more expensive mill/drills out there and I wanted to get an idea of any
useful differences between them.

Some of it has to do with who got the first pick of the litter. AFAICT,
pretty much all milling machines start life in Taiwan or China. Some
resellers pay better than others and get first pick; they also charge
more than their competition.

Note that some machines have 0.1 inch/rev dials, others have 0.125
dials. I largely lucked into 0.1. Folks with 0.125 dials swear that
they adapted quickly, but it's something to note if you think it might
bother you.

You are already aware of round vs. square columns.



Still trying to figure out if a square column or a round one is
better.

I think square. However I have a round one and get by just fine. An ER
32 collet set will help, both because it allows you to do tool changes
in a lot less vertical space than R8, and because it acts as an extender
to help equalize the distance from the spindle to the business end of a
collet held endmill or a chucked bit. Also note that many drill bits
can be held in ER collets, which can be a time saver.

You will want to get a good drill chuck; a Jacobs taper mounted ball
bearing chuck was recommended to me, and I really like it. NEVER use a
drill chuck to hold endmills.


I know that a round column requires realignment every time you move the
head, but what are the other main issues?

I have been able to avoid realignment so far[*]. One time I got close
to it, and over about 0.1 inches!! I had a stop, and was able to stick
smaller parallels under the work to clear the bit. Worst case, a couple
of edge finds and I would have been back in business.

By all means, try to get a square column. However, I am not convinced
that I would give up travel to get it. I have a rebranded 31, and
sporadically get close to its limits of table and saddle travel.
[*] or not, depends on how you look at it. There probably have been
times when I moved the head and ended up doing edge finds for a setup
that might have been ok otherwise. I have not had to move the head to
make any given part - yet


The price differences between many of the models leaves me a bit
fuddled
(this is new territory to me, not having owned any machinery like this
before) and I'm looking for the most bang for my buck, and the
similarities
between all the imports in my price range makes it hard to figure out
what
should be most important to me.

Which is precisely why I am going to give you advice you might not want
to hear: don't try to get the perfect machine on the first crack.
Unless you are certain what you plan to do with the machine, you won't
be able to make an optimal selection. Buy good tooling that will serve
you on it or another mill that you might buy later.

There are bench top knee mills that might be perfect for you, or they
might end up being too limiting. One that I saw not too long ago would
(I think) cause me some trouble for want of table travel. If you do
small stuff with lots of depth changes, a round column might drive you
nuts. I have no way to say whether a square column is "as good as a
knee" in terms of maintaining x,y alignment during z changes.

One of my concerns was the weight of the machine. As it was, I found
670 pounds to be quite sufficient. In preparation for its arrival, I
bought a $140 Torin engine hoise (aka shop crane). It didn't flinch; I
had my hands full =:0 BTW, the crane was a great thing to buy, and I
have since used it for unpacking and assembling other tools, and most
recently for putting up a new light fixture in my garage.

Back to the mill, I had no desire to take apart a brand new machine. I
assume that if I buy another mill, it will be with the expectation of
breaking it into pieces and reassembling it where I want it. Many
people will suggest tearing down a new import mill/drill. Mine oozed
some darkish gunk at first, but seems fine.

IMHO, as a beginner, you should shop carefully to avoid tragically over-
or under-buying, and do your best (which you clearly are) to learn what
you can about the tradeoffs. Then buy a good machine (I suggest R8 but
invite others here to disagree) and even better tooling. You can always
buy a bigger machine later, when you will know better what you want and
will be ready to take advantage of it. That was my reasoning going in,
and it's holding up fairly well so far.


My uses will mostly be small projects, a lot of aluminum, and
automotive
things, but nothing too incredibly big. Of course, once you give a
woman a
purse right away it's never big enough, and the same thing with men and
tools....

I suggest working it down to a short list of machines and asking for
comments.

Good luck!

Bill