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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

Hardening and Tempering SAE 1045



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 21st 04, 01:25 AM
Jay
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Default Hardening and Tempering SAE 1045

Hello all

I would like to Harden and temper a tool I made out of 1045
steel. I have all the temperatures and holding times needed, but as
for a quenching medium, I have a slight problem.

An oil bath is better than water, but I dont have the proper oil. I
dont want to use motor oil, even though the part is submerged, I dont
want to explode.

I was thinking vegetable oil would do fine...

Any suggestions?

Thanks, Jay
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  #2  
Old January 21st 04, 01:45 AM
Backlash
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Default Hardening and Tempering SAE 1045

Jay, I don't want you to explode either.

RJ

"Jay" wrote in message
...
Hello all

I would like to Harden and temper a tool I made out of 1045
steel. I have all the temperatures and holding times needed, but as
for a quenching medium, I have a slight problem.

An oil bath is better than water, but I dont have the proper oil. I
dont want to use motor oil, even though the part is submerged, I dont
want to explode.

I was thinking vegetable oil would do fine...

Any suggestions?

Thanks, Jay



  #3  
Old January 21st 04, 01:57 AM
Eide
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Hardening and Tempering SAE 1045

Any oil will work. I have used peanut oil - left over from turkey fry - it
has a high flash point. And I've used mineral oil, which is nice because it
doesn't go rancid. Motor oil is just fine for a one off. It's pretty smelly
though.

"Jay" wrote in message
...
Hello all

I would like to Harden and temper a tool I made out of 1045
steel. I have all the temperatures and holding times needed, but as
for a quenching medium, I have a slight problem.

An oil bath is better than water, but I dont have the proper oil. I
dont want to use motor oil, even though the part is submerged, I dont
want to explode.

I was thinking vegetable oil would do fine...

Any suggestions?

Thanks, Jay



  #4  
Old January 21st 04, 01:59 AM
A.Gent
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Posts: n/a
Default Hardening and Tempering SAE 1045


"Eide" wrote in message
news:I7kPb.2626$Ue.527@lakeread03...
Any oil will work. I have used peanut oil - left over from turkey fry - it
has a high flash point. And I've used mineral oil, which is nice because it
doesn't go rancid. Motor oil is just fine for a one off. It's pretty smelly
though.



Can you put the motor oil in a container with a lid?

Drop the piece in, then sit the lid on (loosely). Won't the stop the smoke and
the stink, but it smothers the flame nicely.

(Works for me)

Jeff


  #5  
Old January 21st 04, 02:10 AM
Robin S.
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Default Hardening and Tempering SAE 1045


"Backlash" wrote in message
...
Jay, I don't want you to explode either.

RJ


I think I got some spittle on the screen after rereading the original post.
Phhhh.

Regards,

Robin


  #6  
Old January 21st 04, 02:35 AM
Jay
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Posts: n/a
Default Hardening and Tempering SAE 1045


Jay, I don't want you to explode either.

RJ


I think I got some spittle on the screen after rereading the original post.
Phhhh.

Regards,

Robin



Re-reading my original post, I suppose I could have worded things,
better

Jay
  #7  
Old January 21st 04, 02:49 AM
Ed Huntress
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Posts: n/a
Default Hardening and Tempering SAE 1045

"Jay" wrote in message
...
Hello all

I would like to Harden and temper a tool I made out of 1045
steel. I have all the temperatures and holding times needed, but as
for a quenching medium, I have a slight problem.

An oil bath is better than water, but I dont have the proper oil.


I may be telling you something you already know, so excuse me in advance if
I am, but 1045 will only quench in oil if it's in fairly thin sections. 1045
is a water-hardening, plain-carbon steel. If the part you want to harden is
thin, oil is no problem. In fact, it probably will help resist warping a
bit. But it won't quench 1045 fast enough in thicker sections.

What's "thick" and "thin"? I don't have any hard data, but I'd guess that
1/4" is the limit for oil-quenching 1045.

It's not a straight-line relationship, BTW. You have to reach a critical
threshhold of quenching rate, or you get no hardening at all -- none, nada,
zilch. But there is a narrow range in which you get more or less hardening.
That quench-rate zone is quite narrow.

Ed Huntress


  #8  
Old January 21st 04, 03:54 AM
Jay
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Posts: n/a
Default Hardening and Tempering SAE 1045

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:49:50 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

I may be telling you something you already know, so excuse me in advance if
I am, but 1045 will only quench in oil if it's in fairly thin sections. 1045
is a water-hardening, plain-carbon steel. If the part you want to harden is
thin, oil is no problem. In fact, it probably will help resist warping a
bit. But it won't quench 1045 fast enough in thicker sections.

What's "thick" and "thin"? I don't have any hard data, but I'd guess that
1/4" is the limit for oil-quenching 1045.

It's not a straight-line relationship, BTW. You have to reach a critical
threshhold of quenching rate, or you get no hardening at all -- none, nada,
zilch. But there is a narrow range in which you get more or less hardening.
That quench-rate zone is quite narrow.

Ed Huntress



Thanks for you response..

The tool is a bench block I made, cylindrical in shape, similar to the
Starrett blocks. The main difference is there are 6 , M6 threaded
holes around the circumference to allow clamping to the block.
Diameter 3.000"
Height 2.500"
Wall Thickness .300"
Top thickness .500"

My knowledge of heat treating is mostly theory, but not much practical
work. I was thinking about case hardening, as I have 10 pounds of
Kasenite, but I figured if I could harden it, then temper, that would
be better, as I also have a portable Rockwell tester, and I wanted the
practice.

I was reading the Machinery Handbook, and gathered that quenching in
water would not produce the desired effect, as the oxygen would cause
, more or less, uneven hardening.

Do you figure water will be better?

Thanks,Jay
  #9  
Old January 21st 04, 04:21 AM
tomcas
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Posts: n/a
Default Hardening and Tempering SAE 1045

I have two suggestions- Quickly submerge the part below the surface and
there will be no flame and always agitate the part or else bubbles will form
and the cooling rate may not be sufficient.

"A.Gent" wrote in message
u...

"Eide" wrote in message
news:I7kPb.2626$Ue.527@lakeread03...
Any oil will work. I have used peanut oil - left over from turkey fry -

it
has a high flash point. And I've used mineral oil, which is nice because

it
doesn't go rancid. Motor oil is just fine for a one off. It's pretty

smelly
though.



Can you put the motor oil in a container with a lid?

Drop the piece in, then sit the lid on (loosely). Won't the stop the

smoke and
the stink, but it smothers the flame nicely.

(Works for me)

Jeff




  #10  
Old January 21st 04, 06:14 AM
Ed Huntress
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Hardening and Tempering SAE 1045

"Jay" wrote in message
...

Thanks for you response..

The tool is a bench block I made, cylindrical in shape, similar to the
Starrett blocks. The main difference is there are 6 , M6 threaded
holes around the circumference to allow clamping to the block.
Diameter 3.000"
Height 2.500"
Wall Thickness .300"
Top thickness .500"

My knowledge of heat treating is mostly theory, but not much practical
work. I was thinking about case hardening, as I have 10 pounds of
Kasenite, but I figured if I could harden it, then temper, that would
be better, as I also have a portable Rockwell tester, and I wanted the
practice.

I was reading the Machinery Handbook, and gathered that quenching in
water would not produce the desired effect, as the oxygen would cause
, more or less, uneven hardening.

Do you figure water will be better?


Here's my best guess for a short answer: given the shape of your part, no.
I'd go with oil. But that doesn't mean that oil will do the job you want. It
means that I think there's too much risk of cracking or at least building in
too much stress if you use water. You're going to do some pounding on this
thing, after all. If oil does it, you're home free. If it doesn't, at least
your bench block will be safer.

And here's the longer answer. Your bench block is an excellent example of
why slow-quenching tool steels were developed. g Fairly massive, it will
not through-harden in any plain carbon steel, anyway. And the faster quench
rates required by plain carbon steel will stress that part, potentially
causing trouble at the holes. If you've studied some heat treating you
probably know why that is. Cracks could develop at the edges of the hole(s).

The best material for that block is an air-hardening tool steel. With some
skill in heat treating, it's probably also a safe candidate for an
oil-hardening steel, which, by my guess, is what Starrett probably uses. If
you're going to make it out of carbon steel, which is what I'd do at home,
I'd make it out of 1020 and case harden it -- especially if I had as much
Kasenit around as you do.

The trouble with 1045 for this job is that it's a little high in carbon,
given the great difference in section thicknesses between the places with
holes versus those without, for water quenching -- including water quenching
for the purpose of case hardening.

On the other hand, it's a medium-carbon steel that isn't going to be subject
to the fairly extreme expansion stress (the result of conversion to
martensite) that you'd experience with a higher-carbon steel like 1095. So
you may get away with it.

If you had used 1020 or another low-carbon steel made for case hardening,
you'd probably be on safer ground because, although a rapid quench will
cause some stresses due to thermal contraction, at least you won't compound
the problem with differential expansion as a result of martensite
conversion, which would add to the thermal stress.

1045 can be hardened up to Rc 58 with a water quench. I don't have the
maximum value for oil quenching handy, but 1045 often is oil-quenched in
industry. You're probably going to have to agitate the part to get enough
heat conduction away from it to get any hardening at all, using oil, given
its mass. Oil can harden it but it may fail entirely if the heat conducted
from inside the block prevents the surface (which is all you really care
about, of course) from attaining an adequate quench rate. That's the
threshhold business I was talking about. The gentle quench can do some
hardening AS LONG AS your actual quench rate isn't impeded by heat
conduction from the mass inside. That's the classic problem with judging
which medium to use for quenching, in middle-of-the-road cases like this.

Here are some links that will clear up some of these points, given that you
know something about heat treating. The first two are from a 1920s edition
of Machinery's Handbook. The last two are from Timken. In the very first
one, scroll down until you get to the section on 1045. If you *really* want
to get into it, search on Heat Treating 1045 Steel, without quotes, on
Google. There's a regular cornucopia there.

Hey, you could leave it soft and you'll have a useful bench block;
as-delivered 1045 ain't all bad. Or you can take a chance and learn
something useful. That's what makes this amateur stuff fun.

Good luck, Jay.

http://www.zianet.com/ebear/metal/heattreat7.html#1045

http://www.zianet.com/ebear/metal/heattreat0.html

http://www.timken.com/timken_ols/ste...ook/pdm049.asp

http://www.timken.com/timken_ols/ste...book/table.asp

Ed Huntress


 




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