On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:31:09 -0600, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

writes:

Gasoline tanks are vented to atmosphere when they are filled - so they
purge themselves.

Obviously not, if they are open to the atmosphere.
Exactly. As the fuel goes in, the air is displaced, "purging" the
tank. A propane tank is NOT open to the atmosphere, so any air in the
tank stays there.

A new tank gets purged - period - at least here in Canada. Purging where I
live consists of a brief crack of the fill valve. Then disconnect and open
the tank to vent to ambiant pressure. Done. No charge.
All portable tanks (20 to 100 Lbs). are filled on a scale. Every time a tank
is filled (here) the attendent checks the date stamp on the tank *and* the
physical condition of said tank.. A tank that had been re-painted, is too
rusty, dented etc. may be refused. Aluminum paint is automatically
rejected!
On a lighter note; What is it about propane that triggers this group?
I think I will call this phenomenon the 'King of the Hill' syndrome.
Regards.
Ken.

Hum - now with the new OPD valve - item 3 requires the valve be taken
off.
It won't drain out upside down. Maybe through the escape valve -
maybe.

Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder


lane wrote:

Purging
amounted to opening up the bleed screw while propane pumping was going
on, screw remained open until propane fogged out of the opening. The
tanks were then filled to proper weight.

My understanding is that that is not a proper purging.

Per NPGA bulletin 133-a
To purge a container, the following steps should be taken:
1. Purging of containers should be performed in an approved area (see NFPA
#58)
2. Determine if the container pressure is zero. Should the container contain
only air pressure, the air may be vented directly to the atmosphere through
the service valve.
3. If free water is present in the container, it should be drained.
4. Pressurize the container to approximately 15 PSIG with LP-gas vapor.
Never purge with liquid LP-gas; to do so will cause the moisture vapor to
chill and remain in the container.
5. Fully open the container service valve and vent safely to the atmosphere.
6. Repeat the fourth and fifth steps for a total of five purgings.

-----------

Lane

writes:

Gasoline tanks are vented to atmosphere when they are filled - so they
purge themselves.

Obviously not, if they are open to the atmosphere.

Exactly. As the fuel goes in, the air is displaced, "purging" the
tank. A propane tank is NOT open to the atmosphere, so any air in the
tank stays there.

No, this is not purging. Even a "full" gasoline tank has some headspace
containing a mix of fuel vapor and air. A near-empty automotive fuel tank
will contain a large headspace with a potentially explosive fuel-air mix.

You sure it was presssurized with a gas so that it didn't
need to be purged?

Stan Schaefer wrote:

(Roy) wrote in message ...
Just what is involved with filling a new propane tank. I just bought a
brand new 100# tank. Took it to a gas supplier to get filled, and they
want a $25.00 initial fee supposedly to purge it..........what gives.
If its empty its empty. Its got the standard type of valve (OPD not
required on a 100# cylinder) so it can be opened and any air inside
can be vented to the atmosphere. Am I missing something here? Called
two others and they also said the tank needs to be purged since its
new.........I have bought new 20# and never had to have them purged .
I smell a rip off for some reason.

Maybe I just need to transfer some gas to give it a used smell into
this new cylinder and then act like its been filled before.
Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wifes,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

I've bought several new propane tanks, they've all had to be purged.
You DO NOT want air mixed with your propane in there. Purging
amounted to opening up the bleed screw while propane pumping was going
on, screw remained open until propane fogged out of the opening. The
tanks were then filled to proper weight. I got to pay for the propane
that escaped, there was no extra charge for the filling station guy
having to use his screwdriver. You got ripped off. On two of the new
tanks there was considerable air pressure in the tank before they were
even hooked up. The last one I bled down before hauling it over to
the rental place where I get tanks filled, took less time that way.
It took about 15 minutes for the 60 lb tank to quit passing air after
I opened up the screw, there must have been a lot of pressure in
there. I suppose they use it for checking for leaks after assembly,
probably roll them through a water tank after pressurizing and look
for bubbles at the joints. At least being pressurized that way
assured me that it wouldn't leak when filled.

You need to find another, more honest, supplier.

Stan

I buy butane in bulk, and add 200 millileters ethyl mercaptan to 7,500
gallons going into the bulk tank with a draft attachment for scenting. This
is to prevent contamination of the transport truck, as they haul different
varieties. I'm told by my supplier that tomato juice will kill the smell
about as quick as anything will. He related a story about an employee
accidently dropping a barrel of mercaptan from a handcart and the barrel
split. After evacuation of the area, they called in two 8,000 gallon loads
of tomato juice and sprayed all over the compound. He said the cleanup of
the juice was a bitch in and of itself.

RJ
"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...
Mark wrote:
... This article touches on these subjects: [odorant fade]

http://www.brucegoldfarb.com/propane.htm ...

Good article - I never knew that the odor could fade so easily.
However, it certainly is in contradiction with my experience, which is
that the ethyl mercaptan odor is damn difficult to get rid of. Although
my experience is generally with older tanks that probably have had
continuous use.

Bob

Backlash wrote:
I buy butane in bulk, and add 200 millileters ethyl mercaptan to 7,500
gallons going into the bulk tank with a draft attachment for scenting. This
is to prevent contamination of the transport truck, as they haul different
varieties. I'm told by my supplier that tomato juice will kill the smell
about as quick as anything will. He related a story about an employee
accidently dropping a barrel of mercaptan from a handcart and the barrel
split. After evacuation of the area, they called in two 8,000 gallon loads
of tomato juice and sprayed all over the compound. He said the cleanup of
the juice was a bitch in and of itself.

I've heard that the odor is so strong and so bad
close up that it can cause people to become physically
ill. Is this true?

Ken Davey wrote:

On a lighter note; What is it about propane that triggers this group?
I think I will call this phenomenon the 'King of the Hill' syndrome.



I don't know, Some of what's been posted is accurate but lots of this
'information' is inaccurate.

And purging a gasoline tank? What a troll!


I don't miss working with propane. Not because it can be explosive or
that it boils 44 degrees below 0, could be an interesting situation
where your feet are being frozen solid while the rest of you is betting
burnt to a crisp.

After some of the stuff I worked with i the Military and in aviation
propane is pretty pussy.

I don't miss working with propane because of the customers and some of
the Yahoos I worked with. 99% of the people who have propane either live
in trailer parks or live someplace without natural gas service. The
reason there isn't NG service is because they live in the middle of
nowhere. Enough of the customers kept chickens and cows in the house.
Bobtail drivers need to know the area, how better to know an area than
to have grown up there. Who were these people ? The ones living in
chicken and cow houses.

Ok, so maybe this is an exaggeration. But it sure seemed like it.

Then there were the drive in customers, those bringing small cans (up to
100 lb.) and motor homes.

There's the guy who wants me to put a little extra, AKA do an overfill,
in his 20s because he's going hunting and doesn't want to run out. I
tell him I can't do that, he says the other guy does it all the time. ??
Reallllly? and whose this other guy? He describes a co-worker. I say
I'll have to ask him about that but no, I'm not going to overfill. The
guy gets ****ed off. I tell him he's lucky I filled the tank he painted
black but since it's winter I think it will be Ok. Now that becomes an
issue.


Then there are the people who bring cans in that are rolling around the
trunk of their car. And they expect to leave that way. When your doing a
cylinder exchange ar HD or the local cig and beer stop they don't see
how you bring them in or how you leave with them so their asses are
covered. Unfortunately our fill stations were *right there*, I could see.

Try telling someone that's 'always done it this way' and the 'other
guys' never said anything (see chicken and cow houses) the dangers of
unsecured tanks and transporting a tank with the relief valve in liquid,
and how your (I'm) not going to be responsible for the law suit. Not to
mention how your not to transport cylinders in an enclosed area or
passenger compartment.


There was the young punk who pulls up to the dock (where motor fuel
tanks are filled) in his bosses dump truck and literally throws the
tanks on the dock. Talk about a sky rocketing stress level! I ask if
he's aware of the possibility that throwing cans around could cause a
fire and we could get burnt. He says, this is no ****: We all got to die
sometime. I failed every can on a visual.


Then there are the roofers. Roofers use high btu torches so in colder
times of the year their tanks frost off. As the torch is dyeing they
turn the torch on the tank. I've seen paint pealed from the heat. I had
one roofer tall me how sometimes they get the can so hot the relief
valve blows off, and boy that's neat if a little too exciting. Amazing
none of them got killed. How do roofers get the empties (sometimes there
still half full because of frost off) off the roof? They drop them. Lots
of foot and head ring damage, lots of dents and gouges. Failed damned
every tank they brought me once. So they bought some new ones which I
purged and filled and failed the next time I saw them because of the
char marks and dents. This story has a bright spot as the roofers bought
their own dispensing station so they wouldn't have to put up with me.
Cool, we can't be responsible for tanks they fill.


Then theirs the motor fuel/ motor home people. They pull in and first
question from me is anyone in the motor home. For the most part their
unprepared for this. They answer yes next words from me are everyone has
to be out of the motor home before I can fill it. For the most part
that's news to them. Noone in (pick a state) makes us do this. Yeah, I
know, but not only is it the law but it's also a good idea. Some people
want to argue. Sometimes they say no ones in the camper/ motor home and
while I was filling the tank I feel the home start rocking. Their whole
families inside, they didn't want to be inconvenienced. I've even had
people get offended when I say removal of their pets are optional, seems
they want me to think their pets are as valuable as humans.


Then there's the placard issue. Read one way you count only the LPG,
read another you count the can and LPG. The first way 3 33's can be
carried, read another only 1 33 can be carried. I doubt the people who
wrote the law understand it.


Working with LP wasn't bad, working with the people who use it was
unacceptable.





--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

Eastburn wrote:



3. If free water is present in the container, it should be drained.

Hum - now with the new OPD valve - item 3 requires the valve be taken
off.



Actually #3 would require the removal of any valve. OPD or otherwise.



--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

Stan Schaefer wrote:


I've bought several new propane tanks, they've all had to be purged.
You DO NOT want air mixed with your propane in there. Purging
amounted to opening up the bleed screw while propane pumping was going
on, screw remained open until propane fogged out of the opening. The
tanks were then filled to proper weight.


Wrong. Very wrong.

That was an improper purge, and if liquid was coming from the bleeder
valve it was already near or at capacity.





The last one I bled down before hauling it over to
the rental place where I get tanks filled, took less time that way.
It took about 15 minutes for the 60 lb tank to quit passing air after
I opened up the screw, there must have been a lot of pressure in
there. I suppose they use it for checking for leaks after assembly,
probably roll them through a water tank after pressurizing and look
for bubbles at the joints.


Nope.

The tank had either dry air or N2 in it to prevent air and moisture from
entering the tank which would cause rust and odorant fade. You really
did yourself no favor by bleeding it off.

Read my previous post on odorant fade, open the link and read the
article if my words not good enough.





--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

Loren Coe wrote:


the one metro propane distributor in N.Dallas used both scale and
meter to fill bbq tanks. he never looked at the meter, just took
the printout and handed to the customer. although a flat rate, the
office wanted that ticket.


I hope they also opened the bleed valve.

Whether it's a portable, motor fuel or stationary tank the bleed valve
must be opened.

The bleed valve is attached to a dip tube. The dip tube extends into the
tank like a stand pipe in reverse. The bleeder valve spits when a tank
is filled to it's designed capacity.

If you need to know the designed dip tube length look at the collar on
the tank. There will be a stamping: D.T. XXX where the XXX is the length
of the needed tube.


As I said the bleeder is to be opened every time the tank is filled.
Period. Scales are known to be inaccurate, OPDs are not to be trusted.
The dip tube is always right, assuming it's in place and the proper
length (I have a story about my former boss and dip tubes which I will
spare you, take my word that sometimes the wrong ones are installed).

A missing dip tube is somewhat rare.

Listen while your tanks being filled. If a tank fills to 100% it makes a
very distinctive blooeeep sound.


If you pick up your tank and shake it and you can't feel the fluid
sloshing it's been overfilled (or it's empty).


--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:29:13 GMT, Mark
wrote:

I hope they also opened the bleed valve.


huh?

I have never seen a dip tube on an LP tank.

I've only seen them filled with the tank on a scale.

Dave

"Mark" wrote
snipped for brevity
I don't know, Some of what's been posted is accurate but lots of this
'information' is inaccurate.

And purging a gasoline tank? What a troll!

Then theirs the motor fuel/ motor home people. They pull in and first
question from me is anyone in the motor home.

Working with LP wasn't bad, working with the people who use it was
unacceptable.

Mark

Mark, very good post, thanks.
You reminded me of a motor home fire I happened upon. It was at a busy
shopping district just outside of Portland Oregon. The firemen had about a
1/4 mile radius marked off. The motor home was sitting along side a propane
filling station behind a gas station. The firemen were hosing the motor home
and the huge propane tank just along side of it. I managed to find a parking
spot with a good sight line to watch. The motor home was a total loss,
totally engulfed. Then all of the sudden kaboom! I thought that maybe the
big propane tank went, but no it was still there. I figure the smaller tank
in the motor home went. Wasn't much left of the motor home after that. I
never heard if anyone got hurt. Very scary scene.

Lane

In article , David A Webb wrote:
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:29:13 GMT, Mark
wrote:

I hope they also opened the bleed valve.

huh?
I have never seen a dip tube on an LP tank.
I've only seen them filled with the tank on a scale.
Dave

yes, they used the bleed valve, too. the only time i see that
left closed is on a large (80-100gal motor fuel) that is nearly
empty. they open it past 1/2 way thru the fill, others open
it before filling.

years and years ago, some operators did not open the bleed until
nearly full, no matter what type of tank. guess they didn't like
to breath it. that was before all of the new laws. ymmv, --Loren

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message ...
You sure it was presssurized with a gas so that it didn't
need to be purged?

Stan Schaefer wrote:

(Roy) wrote in message ...
Just what is involved with filling a new propane tank. I just bought a
brand new 100# tank. Took it to a gas supplier to get filled, and they
want a $25.00 initial fee supposedly to purge it..........what gives.
If its empty its empty. Its got the standard type of valve (OPD not
required on a 100# cylinder) so it can be opened and any air inside
can be vented to the atmosphere. Am I missing something here? Called
two others and they also said the tank needs to be purged since its
new.........I have bought new 20# and never had to have them purged .
I smell a rip off for some reason.

Maybe I just need to transfer some gas to give it a used smell into
this new cylinder and then act like its been filled before.
Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wifes,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

I've bought several new propane tanks, they've all had to be purged.
You DO NOT want air mixed with your propane in there. Purging
amounted to opening up the bleed screw while propane pumping was going
on, screw remained open until propane fogged out of the opening. The
tanks were then filled to proper weight. I got to pay for the propane
that escaped, there was no extra charge for the filling station guy
having to use his screwdriver. You got ripped off. On two of the new
tanks there was considerable air pressure in the tank before they were
even hooked up. The last one I bled down before hauling it over to
the rental place where I get tanks filled, took less time that way.
It took about 15 minutes for the 60 lb tank to quit passing air after
I opened up the screw, there must have been a lot of pressure in
there. I suppose they use it for checking for leaks after assembly,
probably roll them through a water tank after pressurizing and look
for bubbles at the joints. At least being pressurized that way
assured me that it wouldn't leak when filled.

You need to find another, more honest, supplier.

Stan


Hey, I'm not sure what gas was in there, I just assumed it was air.
Tanks are cheap, you think some manufacturer is going to go out of his
way to put CO2, nitrogen or argon in there just to check for leaks?
They can't be easily shipped with any flammable gas in there, either,
lots of DOT regs on that. No matter, if it doesn't dissolve in
propane liquid, you're still going to get excessive pressure build-up.
Think what would happen if you took a closed tank full of pressurized
air and started pumping in water. It's going to raise the pressure
even more, right? Air will dissolve in water a little and I don't
know the solubility of gaseous air in liquid propane(and have no real
willingness to find out), so the cases may be a little different.
You'd still end up getting more pressure in the tank than just what
would be generated from vaporizing liquid propane at ambient
temperature in the tank. Purging the tank the first time its filled
is a pretty easy thing to do to avoid any possible problems.

Stan

In article , lane wrote:

"Mark" wrote
snipped for brevity
I don't know, Some of what's been posted is accurate but lots of this
'information' is inaccurate.

And purging a gasoline tank? What a troll!

Then theirs the motor fuel/ motor home people. They pull in and first
question from me is anyone in the motor home.

Working with LP wasn't bad, working with the people who use it was
unacceptable. Mark

Mark, very good post, thanks.
You reminded me of a motor home fire I happened upon. It was at a busy
shopping district just outside of Portland Oregon. The firemen had about a
1/4 mile radius marked off. The motor home was sitting along side a propane
filling station behind a gas station. The firemen were hosing the motor home
and the huge propane tank just along side of it. I managed to find a parking
spot with a good sight line to watch. The motor home was a total loss,
totally engulfed. Then all of the sudden kaboom! I thought that maybe the
big propane tank went, but no it was still there. I figure the smaller tank
in the motor home went. Wasn't much left of the motor home after that. I
never heard if anyone got hurt. Very scary scene. Lane

hmmm, i thought we decided they wouldn't blow up in a fire? maybe it got
hot enough? maybe it was the hw heater, somehow? --Loren

In article , Mark wrote:


Ken Davey wrote:
On a lighter note; What is it about propane that triggers this group?
I think I will call this phenomenon the 'King of the Hill' syndrome.

I don't know, Some of what's been posted is accurate but lots of this
'information' is inaccurate.

And purging a gasoline tank? What a troll!

I don't miss working with propane. Not because it can be explosive or
that it boils 44 degrees below 0, could be an interesting situation
where your feet are being frozen solid while the rest of you is betting
burnt to a crisp.
....
There's the guy who wants me to put a little extra, AKA do an overfill,
in his 20s because he's going hunting and doesn't want to run out. I
tell him I can't do that, he says the other guy does it all the time. ??

the only situation that i asked for and received a "packed" fill was
out on a freeway access road w/out of state plates on my propane
powered 4x4. the guy asked how far it was going that day and would
accomodate me, sometimes to 96%, depending on ambient temp.

i did it because of price, usually cheaper out in farmlands, never would
fill in the cities. it helps if your rig is newer, clean and towing.

--Loren

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:34:43 GMT, Loren Coe
wrote:

huh?
I have never seen a dip tube on an LP tank.
I've only seen them filled with the tank on a scale.
Dave

yes, they used the bleed valve, too. the only time i see that
left closed is on a large (80-100gal motor fuel) that is nearly
empty. they open it past 1/2 way thru the fill, others open
it before filling.

years and years ago, some operators did not open the bleed until
nearly full, no matter what type of tank. guess they didn't like
to breath it. that was before all of the new laws. ymmv, --Loren

Please excuse my ignorance on this...

I pulled the valves out of two 100lb LP tanks, and they looked like
ordinary tank valves. No dip tube or anything.

Does this have something to do with the new valve style?

Dave

"David A. Webb" wrote:

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:56:48 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

4. Pressurize the container to approximately 15 PSIG with LP-gas vapor. Never
purge with liquid LP-gas; to do so will cause the moisture vapor to chill and
remain in the container.

5. Fully open the container service valve and vent safely to the atmosphere.

6. Repeat the fourth and fifth steps for a total of five purgings.


And exactly how is doing this making the tank safer than if it were
filled without purging?

As soon as the tank goes from zero pressure to 15psi the first time,
the contents are no longer an explosion hazard. So why pressurize and
vent?

Is it simply to remove air because the air may contain moisture?

Dave

I don't know much about propane, but everything I have read
says nothing about explosion hazard, maybe because air in
the tank isn't one. If you have ever had a tank that has
air in it, you can figure out that the main problem is that
a bubble of air goes through and the burner quits. That
means keeping an appliance going is a problem. That's bad
enough, but some appliance (like outdoor barbecues, and many
RV stoves, have no safety features, so after the bubble of
air, propane follows and spills out, causing an explosion
hazard.

Richard J Kinch wrote:

Jack Erbes writes:

I think the bottom line on purging is to reduce the potential for
explosions.

If that's the case, then why do we use gasoline tanks full of air?
Shouldn't they be purged, too?

The "i think" answer was wrong, the question was wrong (or
just sarcastic). Explain the explosion potential of air in
a propane tank? And, there is no explosion potential in a
gasoline tank, the air/fuel ration over the liquid gasoline
is too rich to burn. Right at the filler opening is a
different question.

Richard J Kinch wrote:

writes:

Gasoline tanks are vented to atmosphere when they are filled - so they
purge themselves.

Obviously not, if they are open to the atmosphere.

Exactly. As the fuel goes in, the air is displaced, "purging" the
tank. A propane tank is NOT open to the atmosphere, so any air in the
tank stays there.

No, this is not purging. Even a "full" gasoline tank has some headspace
containing a mix of fuel vapor and air. A near-empty automotive fuel tank
will contain a large headspace with a potentially explosive fuel-air mix.

I suggest you research that.

In article , David A Webb wrote:
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:34:43 GMT, Loren Coe
wrote:

huh?
I have never seen a dip tube on an LP tank.
I've only seen them filled with the tank on a scale.
Dave

yes, they used the bleed valve, too. the only time i see that
left closed is on a large (80-100gal motor fuel) that is nearly
empty. they open it past 1/2 way thru the fill, others open
it before filling.

years and years ago, some operators did not open the bleed until
nearly full, no matter what type of tank. guess they didn't like
to breath it. that was before all of the new laws. ymmv, --Loren

Please excuse my ignorance on this...
I pulled the valves out of two 100lb LP tanks, and they looked like
ordinary tank valves. No dip tube or anything.
Does this have something to do with the new valve style? Dave

others here will have better knowledge, but no, nothing to do with
the OPD. my experience is with motor fuel and bbq grills, over the
past 30yrs, always, iirc, an 80% indicator/screw or valve. if part
of the main fill/supply valve, there s/b a tube protruding down, maybe
broken off? otherwise, on a 100gal motor fuel tank, the overflow is
a smaller, dedicated valve with a tube attached. --Loren

Stan Schaefer wrote:

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message ...
You sure it was presssurized with a gas so that it didn't
need to be purged?

Stan Schaefer wrote:

(Roy) wrote in message ...
Just what is involved with filling a new propane tank. I just bought a
brand new 100# tank. Took it to a gas supplier to get filled, and they
want a $25.00 initial fee supposedly to purge it..........what gives.
If its empty its empty. Its got the standard type of valve (OPD not
required on a 100# cylinder) so it can be opened and any air inside
can be vented to the atmosphere. Am I missing something here? Called
two others and they also said the tank needs to be purged since its
new.........I have bought new 20# and never had to have them purged .
I smell a rip off for some reason.

Maybe I just need to transfer some gas to give it a used smell into
this new cylinder and then act like its been filled before.
Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wifes,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

I've bought several new propane tanks, they've all had to be purged.
You DO NOT want air mixed with your propane in there. Purging
amounted to opening up the bleed screw while propane pumping was going
on, screw remained open until propane fogged out of the opening. The
tanks were then filled to proper weight. I got to pay for the propane
that escaped, there was no extra charge for the filling station guy
having to use his screwdriver. You got ripped off. On two of the new
tanks there was considerable air pressure in the tank before they were
even hooked up. The last one I bled down before hauling it over to
the rental place where I get tanks filled, took less time that way.
It took about 15 minutes for the 60 lb tank to quit passing air after
I opened up the screw, there must have been a lot of pressure in
there. I suppose they use it for checking for leaks after assembly,
probably roll them through a water tank after pressurizing and look
for bubbles at the joints. At least being pressurized that way
assured me that it wouldn't leak when filled.

You need to find another, more honest, supplier.

Stan

Hey, I'm not sure what gas was in there, I just assumed it was air.
Tanks are cheap, you think some manufacturer is going to go out of his
way to put CO2, nitrogen or argon in there just to check for leaks?
They can't be easily shipped with any flammable gas in there, either,
lots of DOT regs on that. No matter, if it doesn't dissolve in
propane liquid, you're still going to get excessive pressure build-up.
Think what would happen if you took a closed tank full of pressurized
air and started pumping in water. It's going to raise the pressure
even more, right? Air will dissolve in water a little and I don't
know the solubility of gaseous air in liquid propane(and have no real
willingness to find out), so the cases may be a little different.
You'd still end up getting more pressure in the tank than just what
would be generated from vaporizing liquid propane at ambient
temperature in the tank. Purging the tank the first time its filled
is a pretty easy thing to do to avoid any possible problems.

Stan

We are all a little confused (us non-propane dealers). I've
had three new tanks recently and none of them were purged
the way it says on the tag. One of them gave me a little
trouble that eventually went away. All of them cost me
about $10 for a purge, nobody here does it for free. Most
around here charge a minimum fee which is for filling a 20#
tank. But, purging is for safety and reliability of the
appliance usage. It has nothing to do with the possibility
of the tank blowing up. Air in the tank when it is filled
isn't going to increase the pressure over what it would be
if filled without any air. After all, the valve is open to
atmosphere pressure when filling. And when you use the
tank, you use gas, not liquid, so the air comes out which is
the problem. At least that's my take.

Loren Coe wrote:

In article , lane wrote:

"Mark" wrote
snipped for brevity
I don't know, Some of what's been posted is accurate but lots of this
'information' is inaccurate.

And purging a gasoline tank? What a troll!

Then theirs the motor fuel/ motor home people. They pull in and first
question from me is anyone in the motor home.

Working with LP wasn't bad, working with the people who use it was
unacceptable. Mark

Mark, very good post, thanks.
You reminded me of a motor home fire I happened upon. It was at a busy
shopping district just outside of Portland Oregon. The firemen had about a
1/4 mile radius marked off. The motor home was sitting along side a propane
filling station behind a gas station. The firemen were hosing the motor home
and the huge propane tank just along side of it. I managed to find a parking
spot with a good sight line to watch. The motor home was a total loss,
totally engulfed. Then all of the sudden kaboom! I thought that maybe the
big propane tank went, but no it was still there. I figure the smaller tank
in the motor home went. Wasn't much left of the motor home after that. I
never heard if anyone got hurt. Very scary scene. Lane

hmmm, i thought we decided they wouldn't blow up in a fire? maybe it got
hot enough? maybe it was the hw heater, somehow? --Loren




Maybe it was anything -- aerosol can(s), can of peaches,
case of pepsi, juggles the dog. That's the falacy of most
cause/effect assumptions--no data.

"David A. Webb" wrote:

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:34:43 GMT, Loren Coe
wrote:

huh?
I have never seen a dip tube on an LP tank.
I've only seen them filled with the tank on a scale.
Dave

yes, they used the bleed valve, too. the only time i see that
left closed is on a large (80-100gal motor fuel) that is nearly
empty. they open it past 1/2 way thru the fill, others open
it before filling.

years and years ago, some operators did not open the bleed until
nearly full, no matter what type of tank. guess they didn't like
to breath it. that was before all of the new laws. ymmv, --Loren

Please excuse my ignorance on this...

I pulled the valves out of two 100lb LP tanks, and they looked like
ordinary tank valves. No dip tube or anything.

Does this have something to do with the new valve style?

Dave

The opd isn't required on all tanks. Maybe your tank is one
of the exceptions. Is it horizontal, permanent mount, or
what?

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:45:04 GMT, Loren Coe
wrote:

In article , lane wrote:

"Mark" wrote
snipped for brevity
I don't know, Some of what's been posted is accurate but lots of this
'information' is inaccurate.

And purging a gasoline tank? What a troll!

Then theirs the motor fuel/ motor home people. They pull in and first
question from me is anyone in the motor home.

Working with LP wasn't bad, working with the people who use it was
unacceptable. Mark

Mark, very good post, thanks.
You reminded me of a motor home fire I happened upon. It was at a busy
shopping district just outside of Portland Oregon. The firemen had about a
1/4 mile radius marked off. The motor home was sitting along side a propane
filling station behind a gas station. The firemen were hosing the motor home
and the huge propane tank just along side of it. I managed to find a parking
spot with a good sight line to watch. The motor home was a total loss,
totally engulfed. Then all of the sudden kaboom! I thought that maybe the
big propane tank went, but no it was still there. I figure the smaller tank
in the motor home went. Wasn't much left of the motor home after that. I
never heard if anyone got hurt. Very scary scene. Lane

hmmm, i thought we decided they wouldn't blow up in a fire? maybe it got
hot enough? maybe it was the hw heater, somehow? --Loren


Or one of the tires. More likely than the propane tank.

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 02:24:11 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:



We are all a little confused (us non-propane dealers). I've
had three new tanks recently and none of them were purged
the way it says on the tag. One of them gave me a little
trouble that eventually went away. All of them cost me
about $10 for a purge, nobody here does it for free. Most
around here charge a minimum fee which is for filling a 20#
tank. But, purging is for safety and reliability of the
appliance usage. It has nothing to do with the possibility
of the tank blowing up. Air in the tank when it is filled
isn't going to increase the pressure over what it would be
if filled without any air. After all, the valve is open to
atmosphere pressure when filling. And when you use the
tank, you use gas, not liquid, so the air comes out which is
the problem. At least that's my take.


Your take is wrong. Due to environmental issues, the tank is NOT
vented to the atmosphere when filling by weight. The valve is
connected to the filler hose, the valve opened, and the pump started.
There is NOTHING in the tank but propane - either in liquid or vapour
state. The tank is filled to 80% max capacity with liquid. The other
20% is pure pressurized propane.
Now, if the tank is NOT purged, it starts out full of air at
atmospheric pressure. It is compressed to 5 atmospheres pressure if
below the boiling point of propane, and comprises a flammable mixture
inside the tank at some temperature between there and normal ambient.
Not likely a big safety issue - but there IS a point where an
explosive mixture exists inside a non purged tank.

When the tank is "used up" it does not have air in it if it started
out purged - and would have VERY little even if not purged - assuming
the valve did not freeze etc. So refilling the tank does NOT require
venting.
A "brown valve" on a vehicle tank also eliminates the requirement to
vent the tank when filling. As soon as the liquid level reaches the
bottom of the tube (80% mark) the fuel flow is shut off.
Venting of propane tanks at fillup is currently illegal in many areas
- as it should be - for both safety and environmental reasons.

George E. Cawthon writes:

Air in the tank when it is filled
isn't going to increase the pressure over what it would be
if filled without any air

False.

And when you use the
tank, you use gas, not liquid, so the air comes out which is
the problem.

True, eventually.

The odor is strong, but it numbs your sense of smell. I had a summer
job working for the gas company where once in a while we would fill
odorizers. When I got home my parents could smell the odor from my
clothes, but I couldn't smell hardly anything for a day or so.

Dan



Jim Stewart wrote in message news:cPGdnY0RXeg3pX6iRVn-

I've heard that the odor is so strong and so bad
close up that it can cause people to become physically
ill. Is this true?

Loren Coe wrote:

In article , lane wrote:


You reminded me of a motor home fire I happened upon. It was at a busy
shopping district just outside of Portland Oregon. ... Then all of the sudden kaboom! I thought that maybe the
big propane tank went, but no it was still there. I figure the smaller tank
in the motor home went.


hmmm, i thought we decided they wouldn't blow up in a fire? maybe it got
hot enough? maybe it was the hw heater, somehow? --Loren






Hard to believe but I'm pretty sure the tank in that motor home didn't
much care what this group decides.




--
--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

Richard J Kinch wrote:

George E. Cawthon writes:

Air in the tank when it is filled
isn't going to increase the pressure over what it would be
if filled without any air

False.

Ok, so I exaggerated a bit since the total pressure is equal
to the total of the partial pressures. If you took all the
air in the tank at 1 atmosphere and compressed it into the
space above the liquid nitrogen (compressed bout 5 times?)
the psi would be pretty low and much lower than the propane
gas. Since gas volume and pressure are inversely related
and one atmosphere =14.7 psi, the pressure would be 5 x 14.7
or 73.9 psi. So just add that to the pressure of the
propane which someone suggest was at least 200 psi. I don't
think that has any significance for safety, unless they make
awfully weak bottles.

And when you use the
tank, you use gas, not liquid, so the air comes out which is
the problem.

True, eventually.

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:34:43 GMT, Loren Coe
wrote:

In article , David A Webb wrote:
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:29:13 GMT, Mark
wrote:

I hope they also opened the bleed valve.

huh?
I have never seen a dip tube on an LP tank.
I've only seen them filled with the tank on a scale.
Dave

yes, they used the bleed valve, too. the only time i see that
left closed is on a large (80-100gal motor fuel) that is nearly
empty. they open it past 1/2 way thru the fill, others open
it before filling.

years and years ago, some operators did not open the bleed until
nearly full, no matter what type of tank. guess they didn't like
to breath it. that was before all of the new laws. ymmv, --Loren

Ive never seen anyone fill a tank with a scale before. I get mine
filled and they simply pump in 4.5 gal with the bleeder open and call
it good. Every place I frequent in So.Cal. does it this way. The older
none OPD tanks would take a full 5 gallons done this way. I ran out of
propane earlier this week in my RV as I forgot that I have a half
gallon less now than before.

Gunner

" ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age...
I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues
as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity,
bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity,
fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable
choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with
every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we
accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we
kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for
Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and
then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We
*assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his
fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation
to keep the State out of the church business, we've
destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*.
Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 02:29:50 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:


The opd isn't required on all tanks. Maybe your tank is one
of the exceptions. Is it horizontal, permanent mount, or
what?

Not horizontal.
Not permanent mount.
Just a garden variety 100lb LP tank. Vertical, about 4 or 5 feet
tall, a 12 to 18 inches or so in diameter, weighs about 40 pounds
empty. (hard to judge, and I didn't see a tare weight stamped on it)

The tanks are in a storage unit, now that they are cleaned and full of
compressed air. The valves are still in the garage....
crap. No they ain't. I must have tossed them in the trash.

Dave

I've gotten Propane and Butane and that hide the facts LPG
type of stuff for 40+ years.

I used to have to get mine at a wholesale dealer - drive up the the pump
stand -
where the semi-trailer tankers get a drink themselves.

There they used a scale. Read the weight off the side and went from
there.
They hated the tiny bottles but heck - propane was their lives.
In the winter, when cold - they would just fill up to the overflow.

So I think it was a matter of safety. A hot day might outgass the tank
on
the way home.

Around here - always by the overflow - but then it is at a gas
station...

Propane by nature maintains a somewhat constant pressure within when not
frozen.
The gas expands and when the pressure builds up - it turns back into
liquid.

My brother-in-law used to work for Neptune and ? Gas Equipment - the
folks that
made the gas meters for propane.
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 21:27:01 GMT, David A. Webb
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 02:29:50 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:


The opd isn't required on all tanks. Maybe your tank is one
of the exceptions. Is it horizontal, permanent mount, or
what?

Not horizontal.
Not permanent mount.
Just a garden variety 100lb LP tank. Vertical, about 4 or 5 feet
tall, a 12 to 18 inches or so in diameter, weighs about 40 pounds
empty. (hard to judge, and I didn't see a tare weight stamped on it)


OPD not required YET on 100lb cyls , up here anyway. 20 and under are
definitely mandated. Not sure on the 50s.
The tanks are in a storage unit, now that they are cleaned and full of
compressed air. The valves are still in the garage....
crap. No they ain't. I must have tossed them in the trash.

Dave

Those are 15 gallon tanks - I hate the tall unstable size. I'd rather
have a shorter fatter one myself.

I plan on measuring my hoses before I get back to work - just in case I
have
to have new ones built - suspect I do.

Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

George E. Cawthon writes:

So just add that to the pressure of the
propane which someone suggest was at least 200 psi

No, more like 26 psi (0 deg F), 122 psi (70 deg F), or 190 psi (100 deg F).

I suppose now someone will ask, "hey, can I use my propane tank to run my
air tools without a compressor?"

In article ,
Richard J Kinch wrote:
George E. Cawthon writes:

So just add that to the pressure of the
propane which someone suggest was at least 200 psi

No, more like 26 psi (0 deg F), 122 psi (70 deg F), or 190 psi (100 deg F).

I suppose now someone will ask, "hey, can I use my propane tank to run my
air tools without a compressor?"

Sure -- until the first spark. :-)

A die grinder with front exhaust would be an interesting
experience -- outdoors. :-)

Something else -- indoors -- might be the last thing you do.

Or -- a die grinder with rear exhaust would really call for
Nomex work clothes. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Mark wrote in message .. .
Stan Schaefer wrote:


I've bought several new propane tanks, they've all had to be purged.
You DO NOT want air mixed with your propane in there. Purging
amounted to opening up the bleed screw while propane pumping was going
on, screw remained open until propane fogged out of the opening. The
tanks were then filled to proper weight.


Wrong. Very wrong.

That was an improper purge, and if liquid was coming from the bleeder
valve it was already near or at capacity.


I said "fogged", not liquid. Low-temperature vapor, not liquid drops.
I've done enough gravity filling to know the difference. They fill
by weight, kind of hard to overfill if the scale is set correctly.
Might be improperly done in your locale or by your standards, though.
It DID get rid of the air or gas in there, the actual object of the
exercise.




The last one I bled down before hauling it over to
the rental place where I get tanks filled, took less time that way.
It took about 15 minutes for the 60 lb tank to quit passing air after
I opened up the screw, there must have been a lot of pressure in
there. I suppose they use it for checking for leaks after assembly,
probably roll them through a water tank after pressurizing and look
for bubbles at the joints.


Nope.

The tank had either dry air or N2 in it to prevent air and moisture from
entering the tank which would cause rust and odorant fade. You really
did yourself no favor by bleeding it off.

Read my previous post on odorant fade, open the link and read the
article if my words not good enough.





--

Mark

N.E. Ohio

Well, it's between 6-10% humidity here in the summer, the air or gas
is venting OUT, so just how is water vapor supposed to be going back
in???? It was hauled over to the rental outfit for filling that day
anyway. It was just curious to me that there was that much compressed
gas in there already.

One of the other posters figured partial pressure on the basis of the
initial air or inert fill gas being at atmospheric pressure. It
wasn't at atmospheric pressure, for as long as it bled it had to be at
higher pressure than that. Can't be all that much higher, though, the
DOT, or whatever their successors are, would start getting on them
about shipping filled pressure cylinders. Next new cylinder I get,
I'll stick a regulator with a pressure gauge on it just for
curiosity's sake before I fill it.

Stan

Stan Schaefer wrote:



I said "fogged", not liquid. Low-temperature vapor, not liquid drops.
I've done enough gravity filling to know the difference. They fill
by weight, kind of hard to overfill if the scale is set correctly.

Depends on the scale.


Might be improperly done in your locale or by your standards, though.
It DID get rid of the air or gas in there, the actual object of the
exercise.



I have written allot of stuff here trying to reduce your ignorance.
However if you have read what I have posted and are of such little
mental capacity as to not understand what has been written by me and in
the links I have posted there is nothing more I can do to make you more
aware.





--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)