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Van Norman End Mill Questions



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 15th 03, 11:50 PM
ATP
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Default Van Norman End Mill Questions

I have my Van Norman #12 safely in my garage. I was going through the
tooling that came with it and have some basic questions concerning the 5V
collets and B&S taper adapters. From previous rec discussions I'm under the
impression that most collets are for workholding purposes, and that end mill
holders are ideal for driving end mills. I don't see any end mill holders in
my tooling set or even on ebay, and it seems that workholding on a mill
would be limited to special operations, such as using the mill as a lathe.
Are collets typically used for end mills on these machines? I do have some
B&S #7 stuff, but it is obviously not as readily available as straight end
mills. Thanks.


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  #2  
Old December 16th 03, 12:08 AM
Harold & Susan Vordos
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Default Van Norman End Mill Questions


"ATP" wrote in message
.net...
I have my Van Norman #12 safely in my garage. I was going through the
tooling that came with it and have some basic questions concerning the 5V
collets and B&S taper adapters. From previous rec discussions I'm under

the
impression that most collets are for workholding purposes, and that end

mill
holders are ideal for driving end mills. I don't see any end mill holders

in
my tooling set or even on ebay, and it seems that workholding on a mill
would be limited to special operations, such as using the mill as a lathe.
Are collets typically used for end mills on these machines? I do have some
B&S #7 stuff, but it is obviously not as readily available as straight end
mills. Thanks.



Collets are a very satisfactory method of holding and driving your end
mills, and was most likely the only way the machine had been used. While
end mill adapters can be useful, they can also be a nuisance because of the
added depth necessary to accommodate them. They are not required for
manual machining, although they do serve a very valuable service in running
CNC machines, permitting consistent depth settings where one is involved in
repetitive changes of cutting tools.

Harold


  #3  
Old December 16th 03, 12:22 AM
ATP
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Posts: n/a
Default Van Norman End Mill Questions

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:
"ATP" wrote in message
.net...
I have my Van Norman #12 safely in my garage. I was going through the
tooling that came with it and have some basic questions concerning
the 5V collets and B&S taper adapters. From previous rec discussions
I'm under the impression that most collets are for workholding
purposes, and that end mill holders are ideal for driving end mills.
I don't see any end mill holders in my tooling set or even on ebay,
and it seems that workholding on a mill would be limited to special
operations, such as using the mill as a lathe. Are collets typically
used for end mills on these machines? I do have some B&S #7 stuff,
but it is obviously not as readily available as straight end mills.
Thanks.



Collets are a very satisfactory method of holding and driving your end
mills, and was most likely the only way the machine had been used.
While end mill adapters can be useful, they can also be a nuisance
because of the added depth necessary to accommodate them. They
are not required for manual machining, although they do serve a very
valuable service in running CNC machines, permitting consistent depth
settings where one is involved in repetitive changes of cutting tools.

Harold


That's a relief. Looks like I'm pretty well set up, then. It's a 1947
machine, apparently original paint, all the plates are clean and legible,
and everything so far works pretty smoothly.


  #4  
Old December 16th 03, 06:48 AM
Gunner
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Default Van Norman End Mill Questions

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:22:37 GMT, "ATP"
wrote:

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:
"ATP" wrote in message
.net...
I have my Van Norman #12 safely in my garage. I was going through the
tooling that came with it and have some basic questions concerning
the 5V collets and B&S taper adapters. From previous rec discussions
I'm under the impression that most collets are for workholding
purposes, and that end mill holders are ideal for driving end mills.
I don't see any end mill holders in my tooling set or even on ebay,
and it seems that workholding on a mill would be limited to special
operations, such as using the mill as a lathe. Are collets typically
used for end mills on these machines? I do have some B&S #7 stuff,
but it is obviously not as readily available as straight end mills.
Thanks.



Collets are a very satisfactory method of holding and driving your end
mills, and was most likely the only way the machine had been used.
While end mill adapters can be useful, they can also be a nuisance
because of the added depth necessary to accommodate them. They
are not required for manual machining, although they do serve a very
valuable service in running CNC machines, permitting consistent depth
settings where one is involved in repetitive changes of cutting tools.

Harold


That's a relief. Looks like I'm pretty well set up, then. It's a 1947
machine, apparently original paint, all the plates are clean and legible,
and everything so far works pretty smoothly.

While I use collets (30 taper) almost exclusively..I have had endmills
move in the collets, screwing up the work when taking very heavy cuts.

They tend to screw Into the work, pulling the end mill deeper into
the workpiece. I still use them, but I make sure they are TIGHT and if
Im going to make agressive cuts..I stick in an endmill holder Every
time. Normal stuff..no biggie. The Collets your VN use are pretty
darned good holders..so I wouldnt worry about having problems.

Gunner

" ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age...
I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues
as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity,
bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity,
fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable
choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with
every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we
accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we
kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for
Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and
then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We
*assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his
fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation
to keep the State out of the church business, we've
destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*.
Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives
  #5  
Old December 16th 03, 11:26 AM
Harold & Susan Vordos
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Default Van Norman End Mill Questions


"Gunner" wrote in message
...
snip--

While I use collets (30 taper) almost exclusively..I have had endmills
move in the collets, screwing up the work when taking very heavy cuts.


Yep, that's a common occurrence if you're crowding the cut. It is fairly
easy to get around, just make sure that you assemble the collet and end mill
with absolutely NO lubrication on the shank of the end mill and the collet
interior. It's not beyond reason to use acetone or lacquer thinner to
make sure they're absolutely clean of lubrication, then tighten the collet
well. In truth, both holding systems present their own problems, but
neither of them should be considered a bad system.


They tend to screw Into the work, pulling the end mill deeper into
the workpiece. I still use them, but I make sure they are TIGHT and if
Im going to make agressive cuts..I stick in an endmill holder Every
time. Normal stuff..no biggie. The Collets your VN use are pretty
darned good holders..so I wouldnt worry about having problems.


There are left hand spiral end mills on the market the can work in the
opposite direction if pulling is a serious problem and one has no end mill
holders. They push the end mill into the collet instead of out, usually
stopping the movement fairly quickly because of the lighter load. Needless
to say, if you're working near the table, or you have depth constraints, one
of them can be worth it's weight in gold. I recall ruining a master
tracer template for the Boeing 747 years ago, a job I had subcontracted from
a larger shop, which had in turn sub-contracted from a source outside of
Boeing. End mill pulled out unnoticed, cutting way too deep. Sigh!

Harold




  #6  
Old December 16th 03, 04:48 PM
Orrin Iseminger
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Default Van Norman End Mill Questions

Harold and Gunner have pretty well covered all the bases, but please
allow me to throw in my 2

I have a V-N #6 that came with a complete set of collets, but no
end-mill holders. Seeing as how the 5V collets are rather scarce, I
decided to limit my use of them as much as possible. So, I made my
own end-mill holders. It's not that hard to do. I used ordinary
cold-rolled steel and didn't bother with hardening them. They are
accurate and are holding up very well.

I'm not sure how much Z-axis space you have on your #12, but if you
don't have them, already, you might want to outfit yourself with screw
machine length drill bits. I recently got US-made fractional,
lettered, and numbered drills in one big index on sale from Enco for
an affordable price.

I've found that my V-N doesn't like Albrecht chucks; they're too long
and eat up too much space. So, I got a ball-bearing Jacobs; big
mistake. It's huge. Finally, I got conventional Jacobs chucks. They
eat up the least amount of Z-axis. A sensitive drilling attachment is
almost a must, too. It's impossible to get much "feel" of cutting
action when cranking up on that massive knee.

In case you didn't see my post of a few weeks back, I've put together
a CD containing V-N #6 and #12 literature, such as catalogs, accessory
catalogs, letters from V-N, blueprint of the cutterhead assembly (the
#6 and #12 cutterheads are identical), etc. I make the collection
available on a donation basis. That is, I mail the CD with the
understanding that the recipient reimburses whatever amoun they feel
like. BTW, R.C.M readers are to be commended for their generousity.
I've concluded there are some mighty fine people in the r.c.m.world.

Orrin
  #7  
Old December 18th 03, 03:44 PM
JMLATHE
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Default Van Norman End Mill Questions

Walter - I've owned a VN#12 for about 6 years and have a good collection of
tooling, but no end mill holders. I've never seen one with the 5V taper and
I've looked. Apparently they either used collets to hold the smaller end mills,
or used end mills having the B&S #7 shank. I would not want to use collets for
driving larger end mills (1/2"+) or for heavy cuts because they will not hold
reliably and can ruin your work. However shell mill holders were apparently
popular, and I have found several sizes of these. Although you can still
occasionaly find them, they are usually pricy. One just sold on Ebay with a 1"
shank for $107. Ouch!
Good luck, John
  #8  
Old December 19th 03, 02:27 AM
ATP
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Posts: n/a
Default Van Norman End Mill Questions

JMLATHE wrote:
Walter - I've owned a VN#12 for about 6 years and have a good
collection of tooling, but no end mill holders. I've never seen one
with the 5V taper and I've looked. Apparently they either used
collets to hold the smaller end mills, or used end mills having the
B&S #7 shank. I would not want to use collets for driving larger end
mills (1/2"+) or for heavy cuts because they will not hold reliably
and can ruin your work. However shell mill holders were apparently
popular, and I have found several sizes of these. Although you can
still occasionaly find them, they are usually pricy. One just sold on
Ebay with a 1" shank for $107. Ouch! Good luck, John


I have at least one shell mill. I should have bought more at that auction, I
passed on a few collet/tooling deals before the machines were sold. I see
now that I could have at least tripled my money on the boxes of collets,
arbors and holders that were available, and still kept enough for my own
use. I can't complain after getting the whole machine and a cart of tooling
for $50, though.


  #9  
Old December 19th 03, 02:04 PM
ATP
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Posts: n/a
Default Van Norman End Mill Questions

JMLATHE wrote:
Walter - I've owned a VN#12 for about 6 years and have a good
collection of tooling, but no end mill holders. I've never seen one
with the 5V taper and I've looked. Apparently they either used
collets to hold the smaller end mills, or used end mills having the
B&S #7 shank. I would not want to use collets for driving larger end
mills (1/2"+) or for heavy cuts because they will not hold reliably
and can ruin your work. However shell mill holders were apparently
popular, and I have found several sizes of these. Although you can
still occasionaly find them, they are usually pricy. One just sold on
Ebay with a 1" shank for $107. Ouch! Good luck, John


Thanks. I have a shell mill holder with a 1" shank, a few B&S #7 end mills
and a holder, and some shop made holders the purpose of which is unclear. I
was able to confirm last night that I did get a sub milling head- it was
inside the cabinet of tooling in the back. I have many pieces to the B&S
dividing head but not the dividing head.


  #10  
Old February 17th 17, 02:18 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 1
Default Van Norman End Mill Questions

replying to Orrin Iseminger, clay wrote:
Orrin, Hello, if you are still in the practice of sharing your VN #6 & #12
literature, I would be very happy to make a donation for your efforts.
sincerly C. Revelle, WI.

--
for full context, visit http://www.polytechforum.com/metalwo...ns-300808-.htm


 




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