Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies
celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back much slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a fair clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in Iraq its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know about guns I thought I'd ask here. Dean. ( I notice they said Saddam was found in a rat infested hidey hole. I bet the rats are glad he's moved out of the neighbourhood ! ) |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
"Dean" wrote in message ... This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back much slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a fair clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in Iraq its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know about guns I thought I'd ask here. Yes, same velocity they went up with many cases on manslaughter have resulted damage can be nasty as the bullet may have aquired a spin or not be in line with the fall |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
Dean wrote:
This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back much slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a fair clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in Iraq its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know about guns I thought I'd ask here. Dean. There was a recent story about a Klan member getting killed by a bullet that was shot into the air. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:03:45 +0800, "Dean"
wrote: This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back much slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a fair clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in Iraq its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know about guns I thought I'd ask here. Injuries, and even fatalities, from this cause are not unknown here in the US. The risk is a probabilistic one, however. How many shots are fired, what's the population density in the area -- strictly speaking the exposed population density, as there is relatively little risk to people indoors or in cars... Al Moore |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
"Chris Oates" none wrote in message ... "Dean" wrote in message ... This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back much slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a fair clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in Iraq its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know about guns I thought I'd ask here. Yes, same velocity they went up with That sure doesn't sound right to me. A bullet or any other object fired into the air, let's say straight up to keep it simple, will slow until it finally stops and begins to fall back to earth. I would think the effect of gravity and wind resistance would determine the maximun velocity of the falling bullet (object), not the velocity at which it was fired upward with. The same speed would be realized as if you had simply dropped the bullet (object) at the same altitude from a hot air balloon. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. JTMcC. many cases on manslaughter have resulted damage can be nasty as the bullet may have aquired a spin or not be in line with the fall |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
"JTMcC" wrote in message ... That sure doesn't sound right to me. A bullet or any other object fired into the air, let's say straight up to keep it simple, will slow until it finally stops and begins to fall back to earth. I would think the effect of gravity and wind resistance would determine the maximun velocity of the falling bullet (object), not the velocity at which it was fired upward with. The same speed would be realized as if you had simply dropped the bullet (object) at the same altitude from a hot air balloon. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. No, you're right. I remember reading about this issue in Popular Science's FYI section several years ago. It's called "terminal velocity", FYI ;-) I think it said about 9 or 10 people a year die due to people firing into the sky, usually from head and shoulder injuries (really eh?). Regards, Robin |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
Dean wrote:
This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? They seem to be quite dangerous. At least once a year, usually around the New Year celebrations, somebody gets hurt, and sometimes killed in San Jose. For some strange reason it is always San Jose as far as I can remember. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
JTMcC wrote:
"Chris Oates" none wrote in message ... "Dean" wrote in message ... This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back much slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a fair clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in Iraq its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know about guns I thought I'd ask here. Yes, same velocity they went up with That sure doesn't sound right to me. A bullet or any other object fired into the air, let's say straight up to keep it simple, will slow until it finally stops and begins to fall back to earth. I would think the effect of gravity and wind resistance would determine the maximun velocity of the falling bullet (object), not the velocity at which it was fired upward with. The same speed would be realized as if you had simply dropped the bullet (object) at the same altitude from a hot air balloon. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. JTMcC. It would start out with a certain amount of kinetic energy, based on its mass and muzzle velocity. The kinetic energy would be converted to potential energy, minus the work done against air resistance on the way up. On the way down after vertical motion ceased, potential energy is converted into kinetic energy, again minus the energy lost due to air resistance. If there was no air resistance, like a simplified physics problem, the effect of gravity (= stored potential energy) would be determined solely by the initial velocity, and the final velocity on its return to earth would be the same as its initial velocity. In this instance, air resistance is the only loss of energy (from the standpoint of our projectile). |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:23:58 GMT, the renowned "JTMcC"
wrote: That sure doesn't sound right to me. A bullet or any other object fired into the air, let's say straight up to keep it simple, will slow until it finally stops and begins to fall back to earth. I would think the effect of gravity and wind resistance would determine the maximun velocity of the falling bullet (object), not the velocity at which it was fired upward with. The same speed would be realized as if you had simply dropped the bullet (object) at the same altitude from a hot air balloon. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Yes, provided it reaches terminal velocity from that height. There was a recent, long and annoying thread on this in sci.electronics.design which I considered x-posting here.. one of the more amusing physics thought experiments was if you fired a bullet from the imaginary surface of a stationary planet with no atmosphere directly vertically (at less muzzle than escape velocity- no problem with that on Earth), it would return at exactly the same speed as it left the muzzle, in the reverse direction. Ouch. In real conditions, if a relatively heavy bullet isn't tumbling I could see it coming back fast enough to potentially hurt someone (imagine, say, a 180 MPH pointy metal object falling on your skull). But people don't always fire them straight up, which could be worse again. There was apparently a law (called Shannon's Law) passed in Phoenix AZ due to a youth killed from a celebratory gun firing.. common in the Hispanic community. Gunner probably has all the facts at his fingertips on this... Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
I have actually seen this here in the US. We had a person come into the
hospital a few years back who was struck on New Years. What happens is that the bullet has less energy than directly from the gun. It still has plenty of energy though to cause damage. Whereas the high energy of a direct shot tends to cause the bullet to fragment and cause an excessive amount of adjacent damage as it dissipates it energy, the lower velocity of a falling bullet can still penetrate the body ( including the skull) but the bullet tends to stay intact and the amount of adjacent damage is significantly less as there is less energy to dissipate. It may cause minor or major damage depending on where it strikes. If it hits non-critical soft tissues then extent of the injury is not significant. However, if it hits a critical structure such as a major artery or critical brain structure, the consequences can be severe. Luckily, we don't see much of that here in the US. Barry "Dean" wrote in message ... This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back much slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a fair clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in Iraq its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know about guns I thought I'd ask here. Dean. ( I notice they said Saddam was found in a rat infested hidey hole. I bet the rats are glad he's moved out of the neighbourhood ! ) |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
"Chris Oates" none wrote in message
... Yes, same velocity they went up with Nope. As soon as it leaves the barrel it's slowing down, as, AFAIK, bullets are supersonic, and I know of nothing that has a terminal speed greater than the speed of sound, at least at this size! After it reaches the apex, where its vertical speed is zero, it is now speeding up, and will slowly (exponential decay style) approach terminal speed. Donno what number that is, though. Tim -- "That's for the courts to decide." - Homer Simpson Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
In article , ATP says...
There was a recent story about a Klan member getting killed by a bullet that was shot into the air. Ha ha. Chlorine in the gene pool again! Or, if you will, poetic justice. All klan members should be equipped with rifles that fire only straight up. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
In article , JTMcC says...
I would think the effect of gravity and wind resistance would determine the maximun velocity of the falling bullet The phrase is 'terminal velocity' and I suspect that for any modern round fired straight up, this is indeed the determining factor, so I would put my guess in line with yours. As you suggest, there are others here who truly know the answer off the top of their heads. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
by a bullet that
was shot into the air. Funny but that seems to be where most bullets end up getting fired. If I recall wasen't one of the klan members either in a tree or up on a stand and the goof with the gun wasen't aiming exactly straight up. A bullet fired exactly straight up will finally come to 0 speed at which it will break over and start excellerating to terminal velocity. Here in the midwest we frequently have hail that exceeds the size of many bullets and fall from much greater heights and its funny how people can just walk around in it and not get killed. I think a person would be suprised how many "accidental" shooting are blamed on "I just shot the gun straight into the air" sydrome. tim |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
In article ,
Spehro Pefhany wrote: On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:23:58 GMT, the renowned "JTMcC" wrote: That sure doesn't sound right to me. A bullet or any other object fired into the air, let's say straight up to keep it simple, will slow until it finally stops and begins to fall back to earth. I would think the effect of gravity and wind resistance would determine the maximun velocity of the falling bullet (object), not the velocity at which it was fired upward with. The same speed would be realized as if you had simply dropped the bullet (object) at the same altitude from a hot air balloon. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Yes, provided it reaches terminal velocity from that height. There was a recent, long and annoying thread on this in sci.electronics.design which I considered x-posting here.. one of the more amusing physics thought experiments was if you fired a bullet from the imaginary surface of a stationary planet with no atmosphere directly vertically (at less muzzle than escape velocity- no problem with that on Earth), it would return at exactly the same speed as it left the muzzle, in the reverse direction. Ouch. In real conditions, if a relatively heavy bullet isn't tumbling I could see it coming back fast enough to potentially hurt someone (imagine, say, a 180 MPH pointy metal object falling on your skull). But people don't always fire them straight up, which could be worse again. There was apparently a law (called Shannon's Law) passed in Phoenix AZ due to a youth killed from a celebratory gun firing.. common in the Hispanic community. Gunner probably has all the facts at his fingertips on this... Best regards, Spehro Pefhany A neighbor suddenly had a roof leak after New Year's (in Santa Monica CA) about 10 years ago, and found what he said was a .38 slug that had penetrated the tar paper on his flat roof, but not the plywood under it. He said it looked like it had hit traveling vertical, and with it's long axis horizontal to the roof. I didn't actually see it, but hearing his account, and knowing he didn't embellish much, think it could have killed someone had it had hit them right... but feel it sure didn't have the energy of a round fired at close range. Erik |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
"TSJABS" wrote in message Here in the midwest we frequently have hail that exceeds the size of many bullets and fall from much greater heights and its funny how people can just walk around in it and not get killed. The terminal velocities would be different, you can't compare the two. And I'm not a weather man so don't know about the "greater heights" claim. The thing is, that height really doesn't come into play once the terminal velocity for a particular object has been reached. Lane |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
Chris Oates wrote: "Dean" wrote in message ... This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back much slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a fair clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in Iraq its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know about guns I thought I'd ask here. Yes, same velocity they went up with many cases on manslaughter have resulted damage can be nasty as the bullet may have aquired a spin or not be in line with the fall Anybody with a brain know that bullets don't fall back with the same velocity that they initially left the gun barrel. And anybody who has read data on such measurements has a good idea of the maximum velocity that they achieve on the downward fall. Read a book and find out what it is! Yes, people have been killed, but it is highly unlikely for a number of reasons, one being that you would have to be hit in the head and probably in the temple, in one of the eyes, or in the ear (lying flat), or in the very center of the top of the head. And if a bullet did hit in one of these vital spots, there is no guarantee that it would result in death. |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
How dangerous are the bullets coming down ?
The determining factor is the angle that the gun was being held at when fired. If the barrel was pointed straight up when the bullet was fired it will go up until it reaches zero velocity and then fall back down in the general area where it was fired from ( wind drift changes that). On the way back down the bullet will reach what is known as terminal velocity. Gravity will accelerate the bullet on its way back down at 32 feet per second squared IIRC. The limiting factor is wind resistance so the bullet will reach terminal velocity and go no faster. I have seen studies that estimate that speed at about 180 mph for most bullets. If the bullet leaves the barrel at anything less than a 45 degree angle it can really be moving when it comes back to earth since it will not reach zero velocity before it starts its downward trajectory. A round like that used in an AK-47 might travel over 4 to 5 miles before coming back to earth if fired at a shallow angle and it would still be moving fast enough to be very dangerous. The bullet fired straight up would hurt like hell if it should hit you but more than likely it would not be fatal. A good reloading manual with ballistic co-efficients will give you an idea what kind of velocity can be expected under different conditions. Dennis |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
Abrasha wrote: (clip) At least once a year, usually around the New Year celebrations, somebody gets hurt, and sometimes killed in San Jose. For some strange reason it is always San Jose as far as I can remember. ^^^^^^^^^^^^ The same forces which attract tornados to trailer parks attract falling bullets to San Jose. I'm going to stay away from there around midnight, Dec. 31 from now on. |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
"Gunluvver2" wrote in message ... The bullet fired straight up would hurt like hell if it should hit you but more than likely it would not be fatal. Tell that to the Klansman that died from one. |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
THe San Fernando valley near L.A. always has some also - just a ways
away. Martin -- Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn @ home at Lion's Lair with our computer NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
Spehro Pefhany wrote: On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:23:58 GMT, the renowned "JTMcC" wrote: That sure doesn't sound right to me. A bullet or any other object fired into the air, let's say straight up to keep it simple, will slow until it finally stops and begins to fall back to earth. I would think the effect of gravity and wind resistance would determine the maximun velocity of the falling bullet (object), not the velocity at which it was fired upward with. The same speed would be realized as if you had simply dropped the bullet (object) at the same altitude from a hot air balloon. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Yes, provided it reaches terminal velocity from that height. There was a recent, long and annoying thread on this in sci.electronics.design which I considered x-posting here.. one of the more amusing physics thought experiments was if you fired a bullet from the imaginary surface of a stationary planet with no atmosphere directly vertically (at less muzzle than escape velocity- no problem with that on Earth), it would return at exactly the same speed as it left the muzzle, in the reverse direction. Ouch. In real conditions, if a relatively heavy bullet isn't tumbling I could see it coming back fast enough to potentially hurt someone (imagine, say, a 180 MPH pointy metal object falling on your skull). But people don't always fire them straight up, which could be worse again. There was apparently a law (called Shannon's Law) passed in Phoenix AZ due to a youth killed from a celebratory gun firing.. common in the Hispanic community. Gunner probably has all the facts at his fingertips on this... Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com You don't measure bullet speed in miles per hour. But you are pretty close to the maximum terminal velocity. 1mph = 1.467 fps so 180 mph = 264 fps. The army found that the maximum terminal velocity of rifle bullets was about 300 mph. For comparison think of a baseball at 80 mph. If the baseball weighs about 2.5 times the bullet, then the energy would be the same as a bullet at 300 fps. Of course a baseball weight many time the average rifle bullet. Or, for another comparison, many air pistols max at about 300 fps. So let's not get carried away with the possible damage of a falling bullet. |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
Tim -
Have you ever seen a softball sized hail that falls - smashes roofs to junk and puts deep bends in cars. Then there is the smaller stuff that are golf ball size that knocks out people left and right. I suspect you are talking about pea size or rice size. Yea - that is almost like snow. Martin -- Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn @ home at Lion's Lair with our computer NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
Tell that to the Klansman that died from one.
lane, If you can post a link to that article about the KKK member killed by the bullet I would like to read it. Dennis |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
Eastburn wrote: Tim - Have you ever seen a softball sized hail that falls - smashes roofs to junk and puts deep bends in cars. Then there is the smaller stuff that are golf ball size that knocks out people left and right. I suspect you are talking about pea size or rice size. Yea - that is almost like snow. Martin -- Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn @ home at Lion's Lair with our computer NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder I think you will find that softball size and probably golf ball size hail often has much more energy than the terminal velocity of a falling rifle bullet. By the way, nobody mentioned pistol bullets. Although they often weight more than rifle bullets, pistol are much less aerodynamic than rifle bullets and would not achieve as high a terminal velocity and would cause less damage than a pointed rifle bullet. |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
On 15 Dec 2003 05:59:31 GMT, the renowned
(Gunluvver2) wrote: Tell that to the Klansman that died from one. lane, If you can post a link to that article about the KKK member killed by the bullet I would like to read it. Dennis There just seems to be the AP story: http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1028558/posts http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2003/...kkk/index.html) Sounds "suspicious" to me- bullet went right through his skull. Wanna bet that the guy with the gun turns out to have actually been up in the tree, or something like that. http://www.shotspotter.com/pdf/Senso...%20Gunfire.pdf http://www.shotspotter.com/ Shannon's Law has resulted in $500K worth of electronic sensors being installed on telephone poles in an area where there is a lot of gunfire.. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
Dean wrote:
This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back much slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a fair clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in Iraq its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know about guns I thought I'd ask here. Dean. ( I notice they said Saddam was found in a rat infested hidey hole. I bet the rats are glad he's moved out of the neighbourhood ! ) here in New Orleans it was getting to be a ritual of people firing guns to celebrate the New Years.... well with this one girl was killed by a falling bullet... another had a bullet in the head(thougth someon hit her in the head with a bottle on Bourbon St. when she got to the hospital the doctors found a bullet lodged in her head.. and several other incidents... these idiots who were firing the guns never thought much of where the bullets would fall..... In Iraqu it is common to celebrate by firing guns... remember Saddam when on tv and giving a speech to his people,, he took out a 45 auto. and stood in front of them and emptied a clip out over their heads.... when in desert storm and desert shield the friendly troups passing the american soldiers in trucks and tanks, to salute them they would fire their rifles in the air.... |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
"Gunluvver2" wrote in message ... Tell that to the Klansman that died from one. lane, If you can post a link to that article about the KKK member killed by the bullet I would like to read it. Dennis I don't understand how anyone can think that falling bullet doesn't have the capacity to inflict a fatal injury. There are so many reports, they cannot be ignored. It is an urban myth that they are not dangerous. Besides the ones that Spehro already gave you: http://timblair.spleenville.com/archives/005183.php and more http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a950414b.html "20 Kuwaitis died from falling bullets" http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/homework/s95523.htm "cousin of mine was killed several years ago during Mardi Gras when a falling spent bullet pierced her brain" http://howthingswork.virginia.edu/vacuum_cleaners.html "the .45- caliber bullet struck Stephanie just below the knee and 6 to 8 inches down her leg before stopping near her ankle." http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/0...0616.001.shtml The bullet left a small burn mark above her ankle before it entered just below the ankle and traveled about four inches into her foot http://starbulletin.com/98/01/02/news/story3.html there was a hard lump in the right side of her neck. She'd been hit by a falling bullet http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/0...d?OpenDocument Terry Smith lives with a bullet lodged in her left lung & death of a 14-year-old Shannon Smith in June 1999 http://www.beloitdailynews.com/1200/gunn30.htm He had been hit in the head by a falling bullet last week http://www.countercurrents.org/iraq-hider250703.htm Research indicates that a bullet fired into the sky can climb and remain in flight for 30 seconds or longer. As the bullet falls, it can hit a ground level velocity of approximately 140 miles per hour; a velocity which can penetrate the human skull. http://www.lapdonline.org/press_rele...12/pr02798.htm a falling bullet instantly felled Joe. It entered the back of his skull at the top of his occipital lobe, penetrated through his cerebellum, and lodged just millimeters from Joe's spinal cord. Had the bullet traveled one half-inch further, Joe would have been killed. http://www.americancynic.com/10181999.html |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 01:44:38 -0000, "Chris Oates" none wrote:
"Dean" wrote in message ... This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back much slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a fair clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in Iraq its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know about guns I thought I'd ask here. Yes, same velocity they went up with many cases on manslaughter have resulted damage can be nasty as the bullet may have aquired a spin or not be in line with the fall Sigh..much LOWER velocity then they went up with. Around 300 fps +/- impact velocitiy on average. The AK-47 fires its 7.62mm, 125gr bullet around 2300feet per second. The AK-74, uses a 5.45mm bullet with a weight of around 55grs and a muzzle velocity of around 2900 FPS. Of course the heavier bullet will retain far more kinetic energy than the small one. Terminal velocity is dependant on shape of the leading profile. If a bullet was fired STRAIGHT UP, it will generally fall and land on its base. While the bullets upwards trajectory slows, then stalls, then reverses, its STILL spinning as a result of the rifling in the barrel of the weapon it was fired from. This was demonstrated many times by various ballistics labs. http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm Bullets in the Sky We frequently get questions about firing bullets vertically into the air. The most frequent question is, "Will bullets fired into the air return to the earth at the same speed they left the gun?" Other questions asked are; "How far does the bullet travel when fired vertically and how long does it take to come down, or does the falling bullet have enough energy to be lethal should it strike someone on the ground?" Some have tried vertical shooting, but very few have had any luck hearing the bullet come back and strike the ground. When a bullet is fired vertically it immediately begins to slow down because of the effects of gravity and air drag on the bullet. The bullet deceleration continues until at some point the bullet momentarily stops and then it begins to fall back toward earth. A well-balanced bullet will fall base first. Depending on bullet design, some bullets may tumble on their way down and others may turn over and come down point first. The bullet speed will increase until it reaches its terminal velocity. The bullet reaches terminal velocity when the air drag equals the pull of gravity or stating it another way, the bullet weight and drag are balanced. Once this velocity is achieved the bullet will fall no faster. In 1920 the U.S. Army Ordnance conducted a series of experiments to try and determine the velocity of falling bullets. The tests were performed from a platform in the middle of a lake near Miami, Florida. The platform was ten feet square and a thin sheet of armor plate was placed over the men firing the gun. The gun was held in a fixture that would allow the gun to be adjusted to bring the shots close to the platform. It was surmised that the sound of the falling bullets could be heard when they hit the water or the platform. They fired .30 caliber, 150 gr., Spitzer point bullets, at a velocity of 2,700 f.p.s. Using the bullet ballistic coefficient and elapsed time from firing until the bullet struck the water, they calculated that the bullet traveled 9,000 feet in 18 seconds and fell to earth in 31 seconds for a total time of 49 seconds. As a comparison, the .30 caliber bullet fired in a vacuum at 2,700 f.p.s. would rise nearly 21.5 miles and require 84 seconds to make the ascent and another 84 seconds to make its descent. It would return with the same velocity that it left the gun. This gives you some idea of what air resistance or drag does to a bullet in flight. Wind can have a dramatic effect on where a vertically fired bullet lands. A 5 mile per hour wind will displace the 150 gr. bullet about 365 ft based on the time it takes the bullet to make the round trip to earth. In addition the wind at ground level may be blowing in an entirely different direction than it is at 9,000 feet. It is no wonder that it is so difficult to determine where a falling bullet will land. Out of the more than 500 shots fired from the test platform only 4 falling bullets struck the platform and one fell in the boat near the platform. One of the bullets striking the platform left a 1/16 inch deep mark in the soft pine board. The bullet struck base first. Based on the results of these tests it was concluded that the bullet return velocity was about 300 f.p.s. For the 150 gr. bullet this corresponds to an energy of 30 foot pounds. Earlier the Army had determined that, on the average, it required 60 foot pounds of energy to produce a disabling wound. Based on this information, a falling 150 gr. service bullet would not be lethal, although it could produce a serious wound. Many other experiments have been made to find the amount of air drag on a .30 caliber bullet at various velocities and it was found that the drag at 320 f.p.s. balances the weight of the .021 lb. (150 gr.) bullet and terminal velocity is achieved. For larger calibers the bullet terminal velocity is higher since the bullet weight is greater in relation to the diameter. Major Julian Hatcher in his book Hatcher’s Notebook estimates that a 12 inch shell weighing 1000 pounds and fired straight up would return with a speed of 1,300 to 1,400 feet per second and over 28 million foot pounds of striking energy." ******************** Its been my experience that most fatalities or injuries from "spent" bullets were the result of a bullet that was fired at a low angle (less than 45', and as such retains a good percentage of its forewards velocity as gravity drags its trajectory downwards. Some of those folks are not particularly careful when doing the AK Dance, as witnessed on TV broadcasts over the last 20 yrs from the Middle East. Gunner " ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age... I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity, bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity, fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We *assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation to keep the State out of the church business, we've destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*. Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives |
#31
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
In article , Spehro Pefhany says...
Sounds "suspicious" to me- bullet went right through his skull. Wanna bet that the guy with the gun turns out to have actually been up in the tree, or something like that. Climbing around on the cross mabye? Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
#32
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
In article ,
"JTMcC" wrote: "Chris Oates" none wrote in message ... "Dean" wrote in message ... This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back much slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a fair clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in Iraq its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know about guns I thought I'd ask here. Yes, same velocity they went up with That sure doesn't sound right to me. A bullet or any other object fired into the air, let's say straight up to keep it simple, will slow until it finally stops and begins to fall back to earth. I would think the effect of gravity and wind resistance would determine the maximun velocity of the falling bullet (object), not the velocity at which it was fired upward with. The same speed would be realized as if you had simply dropped the bullet (object) at the same altitude from a hot air balloon. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. No correction. You're 100% right. I've long since forgotten what the exact number for "terminal velocity" is (120-ish MPH, isn't it?) but whatever the value is, that's the top speed Mr. Bullet is going to attain on the way down. Even so, there *ARE* fatalities from bullets fired skyward, even here in the good ol' US of A. The last one that happened close enough to me to make the local rag (and therefore be able to hit my own personal "radar screen") was a 2 year old in Detroit on a new years eve a few years back. Id memory serves me correctly, the round came in a few degrees off the vertical, broke her nursery room window, continued into her crib, which was located just below the window, and hit her in the head. Idiots forget that "what goes up, must come down". -- Don Bruder - --- Preferred Email - SpamAssassinated. Hate SPAM? See http://www.spamassassin.org for some seriously great info. I will choose a path that's clear: I will choose Free Will! - N. Peart Fly trap info pages: http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/Horses/FlyTrap/index.html |
#33
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies
celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? ...snippage... I have plenty of holes in the thin gauge corrugated aluminum sheets that make up the roof of the canopy at the back of the shop. Some of the holes make it appear that the bullet hit it flat on the side. None of the holes look like a hole would if the bullet had been shot at it. None of the falling bullets have ever pierced the thicker gauge steel roof of the Morton building the canopy is up against. I've never inspected the builtup roof of the main building to look for damage from falling bullets. I do have a bullet hole in the rollup door in the front of the building. That hole was not from a falling bullet. It tends to sound like a war zone in East Los Angeles on July 4 and New Years. The police usually park under an overpass or other structure at midnight on New Years Eve. Les |
#34
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
"Tim Williams" wrote in message ...
"Chris Oates" none wrote in message ... Yes, same velocity they went up with Nope. As soon as it leaves the barrel it's slowing down, as, AFAIK, bullets are supersonic, and I know of nothing that has a terminal speed greater than the speed of sound, at least at this size! After it reaches the apex, where its vertical speed is zero, it is now speeding up, and will slowly (exponential decay style) approach terminal speed. Donno what number that is, though. Tim Tim: Check "Hatcher's Notebook" and in the section on 'Bullets from the sky' he records considerable data on experiments of vertical firing of ..30 cal 150 grain ammunition. With a muzzle velocity of 2700 ft/sec they averaged only 300 ft/sec when they returned to the ground. This gives an energy level of 30 ft. pounds and the Army considers 60 foot pounds to produce a disabling wound. ("Hatcher's Notebook", Third edition, pages 510 to 517). The majority of the bullets returned to earth base first. J.R. Williams |
#35
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
"Don Bruder" wrote in message ... In article , "JTMcC" wrote: "Chris Oates" none wrote in message ... "Dean" wrote in message ... This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back much slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a fair clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in Iraq its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know about guns I thought I'd ask here. Yes, same velocity they went up with That sure doesn't sound right to me. A bullet or any other object fired into the air, let's say straight up to keep it simple, will slow until it finally stops and begins to fall back to earth. I would think the effect of gravity and wind resistance would determine the maximun velocity of the falling bullet (object), not the velocity at which it was fired upward with. The same speed would be realized as if you had simply dropped the bullet (object) at the same altitude from a hot air balloon. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. No correction. You're 100% right. I've long since forgotten what the exact number for "terminal velocity" is (120-ish MPH, isn't it?) but whatever the value is, that's the top speed Mr. Bullet is going to attain on the way down. Even so, there *ARE* fatalities from bullets fired skyward, even here in the good ol' US of A. The last one that happened close enough to me to make the local rag (and therefore be able to hit my own personal "radar screen") was a 2 year old in Detroit on a new years eve a few years back. Id memory serves me correctly, the round came in a few degrees off the vertical, broke her nursery room window, continued into her crib, which was located just below the window, and hit her in the head. Idiots forget that "what goes up, must come down". -- Don Bruder - --- Preferred Email - SpamAssassinated. Hate SPAM? See http://www.spamassassin.org for some seriously great info. I will choose a path that's clear: I will choose Free Will! - N. Peart Fly trap info pages: http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/Horses/FlyTrap/index.html Terminal velocity is a function of weight and aerodynamics. A led bullet will have a higher terminal velocity than a feather. The terminal velocity is reached when the aerodynamic drag of the object equals the weight of the object. Pete. |
#36
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
Don Bruder wrote:
I've long since forgotten what the exact number for "terminal velocity" is (120-ish MPH, isn't it?) but whatever the value is, that's the top speed Mr. Bullet is going to attain on the way down. Don Bruder - I don't know for sure BUT I would think that terminal velocity would depend on the drag coeficient and that can vary all over the place for different shapes or even orientiations of the same object. ...lew... |
#37
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
It is unclear if the accounts given below involve bullets falling only under
the influence of gravity - that is straight down. It is far more likely they involve "stray" bullets that retain some component of forward velocity imparted by the firing charge. Gunner's comments, elsewhere in this post, make it clear that "service size" projectiles falling only under the force of gravity are not likely to inflict mortal wounds. Kinetic energy = 1/2 mv*2 In the case of a 150 grain bullet falling at 300 fps, its kinetic energy is: Ke = 0.5 x (150/7000)/32) x 300*2 = ~30 ft. lbs. Bullet weight in grains divided by 7000 = weight in lbs. Weight divided by 32 = poundals or mass associated with gravity. Bob Swinney "lane" lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote in message ... "Gunluvver2" wrote in message ... Tell that to the Klansman that died from one. lane, If you can post a link to that article about the KKK member killed by the bullet I would like to read it. Dennis I don't understand how anyone can think that falling bullet doesn't have the capacity to inflict a fatal injury. There are so many reports, they cannot be ignored. It is an urban myth that they are not dangerous. Besides the ones that Spehro already gave you: http://timblair.spleenville.com/archives/005183.php and more http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a950414b.html "20 Kuwaitis died from falling bullets" http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/homework/s95523.htm "cousin of mine was killed several years ago during Mardi Gras when a falling spent bullet pierced her brain" http://howthingswork.virginia.edu/vacuum_cleaners.html "the .45- caliber bullet struck Stephanie just below the knee and 6 to 8 inches down her leg before stopping near her ankle." http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/0...0616.001.shtml The bullet left a small burn mark above her ankle before it entered just below the ankle and traveled about four inches into her foot http://starbulletin.com/98/01/02/news/story3.html there was a hard lump in the right side of her neck. She'd been hit by a falling bullet http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/0...d?OpenDocument Terry Smith lives with a bullet lodged in her left lung & death of a 14-year-old Shannon Smith in June 1999 http://www.beloitdailynews.com/1200/gunn30.htm He had been hit in the head by a falling bullet last week http://www.countercurrents.org/iraq-hider250703.htm Research indicates that a bullet fired into the sky can climb and remain in flight for 30 seconds or longer. As the bullet falls, it can hit a ground level velocity of approximately 140 miles per hour; a velocity which can penetrate the human skull. http://www.lapdonline.org/press_rele...12/pr02798.htm a falling bullet instantly felled Joe. It entered the back of his skull at the top of his occipital lobe, penetrated through his cerebellum, and lodged just millimeters from Joe's spinal cord. Had the bullet traveled one half-inch further, Joe would have been killed. http://www.americancynic.com/10181999.html |
#38
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
Tim, consider this:
Fire a cannon ball exactly horizontal (level) with the earth. At the exact instant the cannon ball leaves the muzzle, drop another cannon ball from the same height. The 2 cannon balls will reach the earth at the same time. Bob Swinney "Tim Williams" wrote in message ... "Chris Oates" none wrote in message ... Yes, same velocity they went up with Nope. As soon as it leaves the barrel it's slowing down, as, AFAIK, bullets are supersonic, and I know of nothing that has a terminal speed greater than the speed of sound, at least at this size! After it reaches the apex, where its vertical speed is zero, it is now speeding up, and will slowly (exponential decay style) approach terminal speed. Donno what number that is, though. Tim -- "That's for the courts to decide." - Homer Simpson Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms |
#39
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
When we reshingled the roof, we found a .45 slug stuck in the ridge row
point first. It had penetrated 3 or 4 layers of fiberglass shingles before stopping. Stupid neighbor. The nose shows spiral scratches from the grit on the shingles. I still have it in a box somewhere... StaticsJason "lane" lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote in message ... "Gunluvver2" wrote in message ... Tell that to the Klansman that died from one. lane, If you can post a link to that article about the KKK member killed by the bullet I would like to read it. Dennis I don't understand how anyone can think that falling bullet doesn't have the capacity to inflict a fatal injury. There are so many reports, they cannot be ignored. It is an urban myth that they are not dangerous. Besides the ones that Spehro already gave you: http://timblair.spleenville.com/archives/005183.php and more http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a950414b.html "20 Kuwaitis died from falling bullets" http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/homework/s95523.htm "cousin of mine was killed several years ago during Mardi Gras when a falling spent bullet pierced her brain" http://howthingswork.virginia.edu/vacuum_cleaners.html "the .45- caliber bullet struck Stephanie just below the knee and 6 to 8 inches down her leg before stopping near her ankle." http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/0...0616.001.shtml The bullet left a small burn mark above her ankle before it entered just below the ankle and traveled about four inches into her foot http://starbulletin.com/98/01/02/news/story3.html there was a hard lump in the right side of her neck. She'd been hit by a falling bullet http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/0...d?OpenDocument Terry Smith lives with a bullet lodged in her left lung & death of a 14-year-old Shannon Smith in June 1999 http://www.beloitdailynews.com/1200/gunn30.htm He had been hit in the head by a falling bullet last week http://www.countercurrents.org/iraq-hider250703.htm Research indicates that a bullet fired into the sky can climb and remain in flight for 30 seconds or longer. As the bullet falls, it can hit a ground level velocity of approximately 140 miles per hour; a velocity which can penetrate the human skull. http://www.lapdonline.org/press_rele...12/pr02798.htm a falling bullet instantly felled Joe. It entered the back of his skull at the top of his occipital lobe, penetrated through his cerebellum, and lodged just millimeters from Joe's spinal cord. Had the bullet traveled one half-inch further, Joe would have been killed. http://www.americancynic.com/10181999.html |
#40
|
|||
|
|||
Bullets falling back to earth
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:43:10 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:
I've long since forgotten what the exact number for "terminal velocity" is (120-ish MPH, isn't it?) That's for people with their arms out. Over 200mph for people with their arms folded back. Bullets are aerodynamic, but only when pointed forwards. They're also only barely stable (excess stability requires drag), so they're unlikely to re-orient themselves correctly after first starting to tumble. Some figures claim around 400mph for an oriented rifle bullet, but a mere 150mph for one that's tumbling. It is possible to go supersonic in free-fall - the WW2 Grand Slam bomb was designed to do just that (and caused a lot of aerodynamic headaches for trying to). As casualties have already been reported from the celebratory firing, the question is a little academic. |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Down to earth - can you identify tonight's mystery switch gear? | UK diy | |||
Chrome Electric Bits | UK diy | |||
Earthing | UK diy | |||
Ceiling fan earth | UK diy |