This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies
celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the
air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back much
slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a fair
clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in Iraq
its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know about
guns I thought I'd ask here.

Dean.

( I notice they said Saddam was found in a rat infested hidey hole. I bet
the rats are glad he's moved out of the neighbourhood ! )

"Dean" wrote in message
...
This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies
celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the
air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back
much
slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a fair
clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in
Iraq
its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know about
guns I thought I'd ask here.

Yes, same velocity they went up with
many cases on manslaughter have resulted
damage can be nasty as the bullet may have
aquired a spin or not be in line with the fall

Dean wrote:
This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the
Iraqies celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and
guns into the air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know
they fall back much slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they
must still be doing a fair clip. They said 4 people so far have been
killed by this but I guess in Iraq its hard to know which bullets
came from where. As a few of you know about guns I thought I'd ask
here.

Dean.

There was a recent story about a Klan member getting killed by a bullet that
was shot into the air.

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:03:45 +0800, "Dean"
wrote:

This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies
celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the
air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back much
slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a fair
clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in Iraq
its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know about
guns I thought I'd ask here.

Injuries, and even fatalities, from this cause are not unknown here in
the US. The risk is a probabilistic one, however. How many shots are
fired, what's the population density in the area -- strictly speaking
the exposed population density, as there is relatively little risk to
people indoors or in cars...

Al Moore

"Chris Oates" none wrote in message
...

"Dean" wrote in message
...
This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies
celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into
the
air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back
much
slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a
fair
clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in
Iraq
its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know
about
guns I thought I'd ask here.

Yes, same velocity they went up with


That sure doesn't sound right to me. A bullet or any other object fired into
the air, let's say straight up to keep it simple, will slow until it finally
stops and begins to fall back to earth. I would think the effect of gravity
and wind resistance would determine the maximun velocity of the falling
bullet (object), not the velocity at which it was fired upward with. The
same speed would be realized as if you had simply dropped the bullet
(object) at the same altitude from a hot air balloon. Feel free to correct
me if I'm wrong.

JTMcC.


many cases on manslaughter have resulted
damage can be nasty as the bullet may have
aquired a spin or not be in line with the fall

"JTMcC" wrote in message
...


That sure doesn't sound right to me. A bullet or any other object fired
into
the air, let's say straight up to keep it simple, will slow until it
finally
stops and begins to fall back to earth. I would think the effect of
gravity
and wind resistance would determine the maximun velocity of the falling
bullet (object), not the velocity at which it was fired upward with. The
same speed would be realized as if you had simply dropped the bullet
(object) at the same altitude from a hot air balloon. Feel free to correct
me if I'm wrong.


No, you're right. I remember reading about this issue in Popular Science's
FYI section several years ago. It's called "terminal velocity", FYI ;-)

I think it said about 9 or 10 people a year die due to people firing into
the sky, usually from head and shoulder injuries (really eh?).

Regards,

Robin

Dean wrote:

This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies
celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the
air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ?

They seem to be quite dangerous. At least once a year, usually around the New
Year celebrations, somebody gets hurt, and sometimes killed in San Jose. For
some strange reason it is always San Jose as far as I can remember.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

JTMcC wrote:
"Chris Oates" none wrote in message
...

"Dean" wrote in message
...
This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the
Iraqies celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles
and guns into the air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ?
I know they fall back much slower than they leave the gun barrel,
but they must still be doing a fair clip. They said 4 people so far
have been killed by this but I guess in Iraq its hard to know which
bullets came from where. As a few of you know about guns I thought
I'd ask here.

Yes, same velocity they went up with


That sure doesn't sound right to me. A bullet or any other object
fired into the air, let's say straight up to keep it simple, will
slow until it finally stops and begins to fall back to earth. I would
think the effect of gravity and wind resistance would determine the
maximun velocity of the falling bullet (object), not the velocity at
which it was fired upward with. The same speed would be realized as
if you had simply dropped the bullet (object) at the same altitude
from a hot air balloon. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

JTMcC.

It would start out with a certain amount of kinetic energy, based on its
mass and muzzle velocity. The kinetic energy would be converted to potential
energy, minus the work done against air resistance on the way up. On the way
down after vertical motion ceased, potential energy is converted into
kinetic energy, again minus the energy lost due to air resistance. If there
was no air resistance, like a simplified physics problem, the effect of
gravity (= stored potential energy) would be determined solely by the
initial velocity, and the final velocity on its return to earth would be the
same as its initial velocity. In this instance, air resistance is the only
loss of energy (from the standpoint of our projectile).

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:23:58 GMT, the renowned "JTMcC"
wrote:

That sure doesn't sound right to me. A bullet or any other object fired into
the air, let's say straight up to keep it simple, will slow until it finally
stops and begins to fall back to earth. I would think the effect of gravity
and wind resistance would determine the maximun velocity of the falling
bullet (object), not the velocity at which it was fired upward with. The
same speed would be realized as if you had simply dropped the bullet
(object) at the same altitude from a hot air balloon. Feel free to correct
me if I'm wrong.

Yes, provided it reaches terminal velocity from that height.
There was a recent, long and annoying thread on this in
sci.electronics.design which I considered x-posting here.. one of the
more amusing physics thought experiments was if you fired a bullet
from the imaginary surface of a stationary planet with no atmosphere
directly vertically (at less muzzle than escape velocity- no problem
with that on Earth), it would return at exactly the same speed as it
left the muzzle, in the reverse direction. Ouch.

In real conditions, if a relatively heavy bullet isn't tumbling I
could see it coming back fast enough to potentially hurt someone
(imagine, say, a 180 MPH pointy metal object falling on your skull).
But people don't always fire them straight up, which could be worse
again. There was apparently a law (called Shannon's Law) passed in
Phoenix AZ due to a youth killed from a celebratory gun firing..
common in the Hispanic community.

Gunner probably has all the facts at his fingertips on this...

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

I have actually seen this here in the US. We had a person come into the
hospital a few years back who was struck on New Years. What happens is that
the bullet has less energy than directly from the gun. It still has plenty
of energy though to cause damage. Whereas the high energy of a direct shot
tends to cause the bullet to fragment and cause an excessive amount of
adjacent damage as it dissipates it energy, the lower velocity of a falling
bullet can still penetrate the body ( including the skull) but the bullet
tends to stay intact and the amount of adjacent damage is significantly less
as there is less energy to dissipate. It may cause minor or major damage
depending on where it strikes. If it hits non-critical soft tissues then
extent of the injury is not significant. However, if it hits a critical
structure such as a major artery or critical brain structure, the
consequences can be severe. Luckily, we don't see much of that here in the
US.


Barry



"Dean" wrote in message
...
This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies
celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the
air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back
much
slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a fair
clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in
Iraq
its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know about
guns I thought I'd ask here.

Dean.

( I notice they said Saddam was found in a rat infested hidey hole. I bet
the rats are glad he's moved out of the neighbourhood ! )

"Chris Oates" none wrote in message
...
Yes, same velocity they went up with

Nope. As soon as it leaves the barrel it's slowing down, as, AFAIK,
bullets are supersonic, and I know of nothing that has a terminal speed
greater than the speed of sound, at least at this size! After it reaches
the apex, where its vertical speed is zero, it is now speeding up, and
will slowly (exponential decay style) approach terminal speed. Donno what
number that is, though.

Tim

--
"That's for the courts to decide." - Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

In article , ATP says...

There was a recent story about a Klan member getting killed by a bullet that
was shot into the air.

Ha ha. Chlorine in the gene pool again! Or,
if you will, poetic justice. All klan members
should be equipped with rifles that fire only
straight up.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , JTMcC says...

I would think the effect of gravity
and wind resistance would determine the maximun velocity of the falling
bullet

The phrase is 'terminal velocity' and I suspect that for
any modern round fired straight up, this is indeed the
determining factor, so I would put my guess in line with
yours. As you suggest, there are others here who truly
know the answer off the top of their heads.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

by a bullet that
was shot into the air.

Funny but that seems to be where most bullets end up getting fired. If I
recall wasen't one of the klan members either in a tree or up on a stand and
the goof with the gun wasen't aiming exactly straight up.

A bullet fired exactly straight up will finally come to 0 speed at which it
will break over and start excellerating to terminal velocity. Here in the
midwest we frequently have hail that exceeds the size of many bullets and fall
from much greater heights and its funny how people can just walk around in it
and not get killed.
I think a person would be suprised how many "accidental" shooting are blamed
on "I just shot the gun straight into the air" sydrome.

tim

In article ,
Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:23:58 GMT, the renowned "JTMcC"
wrote:

That sure doesn't sound right to me. A bullet or any other object fired into
the air, let's say straight up to keep it simple, will slow until it finally
stops and begins to fall back to earth. I would think the effect of gravity
and wind resistance would determine the maximun velocity of the falling
bullet (object), not the velocity at which it was fired upward with. The
same speed would be realized as if you had simply dropped the bullet
(object) at the same altitude from a hot air balloon. Feel free to correct
me if I'm wrong.

Yes, provided it reaches terminal velocity from that height.
There was a recent, long and annoying thread on this in
sci.electronics.design which I considered x-posting here.. one of the
more amusing physics thought experiments was if you fired a bullet
from the imaginary surface of a stationary planet with no atmosphere
directly vertically (at less muzzle than escape velocity- no problem
with that on Earth), it would return at exactly the same speed as it
left the muzzle, in the reverse direction. Ouch.

In real conditions, if a relatively heavy bullet isn't tumbling I
could see it coming back fast enough to potentially hurt someone
(imagine, say, a 180 MPH pointy metal object falling on your skull).
But people don't always fire them straight up, which could be worse
again. There was apparently a law (called Shannon's Law) passed in
Phoenix AZ due to a youth killed from a celebratory gun firing..
common in the Hispanic community.

Gunner probably has all the facts at his fingertips on this...

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

A neighbor suddenly had a roof leak after New Year's (in Santa Monica
CA) about 10 years ago, and found what he said was a .38 slug that had
penetrated the tar paper on his flat roof, but not the plywood under it.

He said it looked like it had hit traveling vertical, and with it's long
axis horizontal to the roof. I didn't actually see it, but hearing his
account, and knowing he didn't embellish much, think it could have
killed someone had it had hit them right... but feel it sure didn't have
the energy of a round fired at close range.

Erik

"TSJABS" wrote in message
Here in the
midwest we frequently have hail that exceeds the size of many bullets and
fall
from much greater heights and its funny how people can just walk around in
it
and not get killed.


The terminal velocities would be different, you can't compare the two. And
I'm not a weather man so don't know about the "greater heights" claim. The
thing is, that height really doesn't come into play once the terminal
velocity for a particular object has been reached.

Lane

Chris Oates wrote:

"Dean" wrote in message
...
This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies
celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the
air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back
much
slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a fair
clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in
Iraq
its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know about
guns I thought I'd ask here.

Yes, same velocity they went up with
many cases on manslaughter have resulted
damage can be nasty as the bullet may have
aquired a spin or not be in line with the fall

Anybody with a brain know that bullets don't fall back with
the same velocity that they initially left the gun barrel.
And anybody who has read data on such measurements has a
good idea of the maximum velocity that they achieve on the
downward fall. Read a book and find out what it is! Yes,
people have been killed, but it is highly unlikely for a
number of reasons, one being that you would have to be hit
in the head and probably in the temple, in one of the eyes,
or in the ear (lying flat), or in the very center of the top
of the head. And if a bullet did hit in one of these vital
spots, there is no guarantee that it would result in death.

How dangerous are the bullets coming down ?

The determining factor is the angle that the gun was being held at when fired.
If the barrel was pointed straight up when the bullet was fired it will go up
until it reaches zero velocity and then fall back down in the general area
where it was fired from ( wind drift changes that). On the way back down the
bullet will reach what is known as terminal velocity. Gravity will accelerate
the bullet on its way back down at 32 feet per second squared IIRC. The
limiting factor is wind resistance so the bullet will reach terminal velocity
and go no faster. I have seen studies that estimate that speed at about 180 mph
for most bullets.

If the bullet leaves the barrel at anything less than a 45 degree angle it can
really be moving when it comes back to earth since it will not reach zero
velocity before it starts its downward trajectory. A round like that used in an
AK-47 might travel over 4 to 5 miles before coming back to earth if fired at a
shallow angle and it would still be moving fast enough to be very dangerous.
The bullet fired straight up would hurt like hell if it should hit you but more
than likely it would not be fatal. A good reloading manual with ballistic
co-efficients will give you an idea what kind of velocity can be expected under
different conditions.

Dennis

Abrasha wrote: (clip) At least once a year, usually around the New Year
celebrations, somebody gets hurt, and sometimes killed in San Jose. For
some strange reason it is always San Jose as far as I can remember.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
The same forces which attract tornados to trailer parks attract falling
bullets to San Jose. I'm going to stay away from there around midnight,
Dec. 31 from now on.

"Gunluvver2" wrote in message
...
The bullet fired straight up would hurt like hell if it should hit you but
more
than likely it would not be fatal.

Tell that to the Klansman that died from one.

THe San Fernando valley near L.A. always has some also - just a ways
away.

Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:23:58 GMT, the renowned "JTMcC"
wrote:

That sure doesn't sound right to me. A bullet or any other object fired into
the air, let's say straight up to keep it simple, will slow until it finally
stops and begins to fall back to earth. I would think the effect of gravity
and wind resistance would determine the maximun velocity of the falling
bullet (object), not the velocity at which it was fired upward with. The
same speed would be realized as if you had simply dropped the bullet
(object) at the same altitude from a hot air balloon. Feel free to correct
me if I'm wrong.

Yes, provided it reaches terminal velocity from that height.
There was a recent, long and annoying thread on this in
sci.electronics.design which I considered x-posting here.. one of the
more amusing physics thought experiments was if you fired a bullet
from the imaginary surface of a stationary planet with no atmosphere
directly vertically (at less muzzle than escape velocity- no problem
with that on Earth), it would return at exactly the same speed as it
left the muzzle, in the reverse direction. Ouch.

In real conditions, if a relatively heavy bullet isn't tumbling I
could see it coming back fast enough to potentially hurt someone
(imagine, say, a 180 MPH pointy metal object falling on your skull).
But people don't always fire them straight up, which could be worse
again. There was apparently a law (called Shannon's Law) passed in
Phoenix AZ due to a youth killed from a celebratory gun firing..
common in the Hispanic community.

Gunner probably has all the facts at his fingertips on this...

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

You don't measure bullet speed in miles per hour. But you
are pretty close to the maximum terminal velocity. 1mph =
1.467 fps so 180 mph = 264 fps. The army found that the
maximum terminal velocity of rifle bullets was about 300
mph. For comparison think of a baseball at 80 mph. If the
baseball weighs about 2.5 times the bullet, then the energy
would be the same as a bullet at 300 fps. Of course a
baseball weight many time the average rifle bullet. Or, for
another comparison, many air pistols max at about 300 fps.
So let's not get carried away with the possible damage of a
falling bullet.

Tim -

Have you ever seen a softball sized hail that falls - smashes roofs to
junk
and puts deep bends in cars.

Then there is the smaller stuff that are golf ball size that knocks out
people
left and right.

I suspect you are talking about pea size or rice size. Yea - that is
almost like snow.

Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Tell that to the Klansman that died from one.



lane,
If you can post a link to that article about the KKK member killed by the
bullet I would like to read it.
Dennis

Eastburn wrote:

Tim -

Have you ever seen a softball sized hail that falls - smashes roofs to
junk
and puts deep bends in cars.

Then there is the smaller stuff that are golf ball size that knocks out
people
left and right.

I suspect you are talking about pea size or rice size. Yea - that is
almost like snow.

Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

I think you will find that softball size and probably golf
ball size hail often has much more energy than the terminal
velocity of a falling rifle bullet. By the way, nobody
mentioned pistol bullets. Although they often weight more
than rifle bullets, pistol are much less aerodynamic than
rifle bullets and would not achieve as high a terminal
velocity and would cause less damage than a pointed rifle
bullet.

On 15 Dec 2003 05:59:31 GMT, the renowned
(Gunluvver2) wrote:

Tell that to the Klansman that died from one.



lane,
If you can post a link to that article about the KKK member killed by the
bullet I would like to read it.
Dennis

There just seems to be the AP story:
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1028558/posts
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2003/...kkk/index.html)

Sounds "suspicious" to me- bullet went right through his skull. Wanna
bet that the guy with the gun turns out to have actually been up in
the tree, or something like that.

http://www.shotspotter.com/pdf/Senso...%20Gunfire.pdf
http://www.shotspotter.com/

Shannon's Law has resulted in $500K worth of electronic sensors being
installed on telephone poles in an area where there is a lot of
gunfire..



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Dean wrote:

This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies
celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the
air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back much
slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a fair
clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in Iraq
its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know about
guns I thought I'd ask here.

Dean.

( I notice they said Saddam was found in a rat infested hidey hole. I bet
the rats are glad he's moved out of the neighbourhood ! )
here in New Orleans it was getting to be a ritual of people firing guns
to celebrate the New Years.... well with this one girl was killed by a
falling bullet... another had a bullet in the head(thougth someon hit
her in the head with a bottle on Bourbon St. when she got to the
hospital the doctors found a bullet lodged in her head.. and several
other incidents... these idiots who were firing the guns never thought
much of where the bullets would fall..... In Iraqu it is common to
celebrate by firing guns... remember Saddam when on tv and giving a
speech to his people,, he took out a 45 auto. and stood in front of them
and emptied a clip out over their heads....
when in desert storm and desert shield the friendly troups passing the
american soldiers in trucks and tanks, to salute them they would fire
their rifles in the air....

"Gunluvver2" wrote in message
...
Tell that to the Klansman that died from one.



lane,
If you can post a link to that article about the KKK member killed by the
bullet I would like to read it.
Dennis

I don't understand how anyone can think that falling bullet doesn't have
the capacity to inflict a fatal injury. There are so many reports, they
cannot be ignored. It is an urban myth that they are not dangerous.

Besides the ones that Spehro already gave you:

http://timblair.spleenville.com/archives/005183.php
and more
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a950414b.html

"20 Kuwaitis died from falling bullets"
http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/homework/s95523.htm

"cousin of mine was killed several years ago during Mardi Gras when a
falling spent bullet pierced her brain"
http://howthingswork.virginia.edu/vacuum_cleaners.html

"the .45- caliber bullet struck Stephanie just below the knee and 6 to 8
inches down her leg before stopping near her ankle."
http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/0...0616.001.shtml

The bullet left a small burn mark above her ankle before it entered just
below the ankle and traveled about four inches into her foot
http://starbulletin.com/98/01/02/news/story3.html

there was a hard lump in the right side of her neck. She'd been hit by a
falling bullet
http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/0...d?OpenDocument

Terry Smith lives with a bullet lodged in her left lung &
death of a 14-year-old Shannon Smith in June 1999
http://www.beloitdailynews.com/1200/gunn30.htm

He had been hit in the head by a falling bullet last week
http://www.countercurrents.org/iraq-hider250703.htm

Research indicates that a bullet fired into the sky can climb and remain in
flight for 30 seconds or longer. As the bullet falls, it can hit a ground
level velocity of approximately 140 miles per hour; a velocity which can
penetrate the human skull.
http://www.lapdonline.org/press_rele...12/pr02798.htm

a falling bullet instantly felled Joe. It entered the back of his skull at
the top of his occipital lobe, penetrated through his cerebellum, and lodged
just millimeters from Joe's spinal cord. Had the bullet traveled one
half-inch further, Joe would have been killed.
http://www.americancynic.com/10181999.html

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 01:44:38 -0000, "Chris Oates" none wrote:


"Dean" wrote in message
...
This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies
celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the
air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back
much
slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a fair
clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in
Iraq
its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know about
guns I thought I'd ask here.

Yes, same velocity they went up with
many cases on manslaughter have resulted
damage can be nasty as the bullet may have
aquired a spin or not be in line with the fall

Sigh..much LOWER velocity then they went up with. Around 300 fps +/-
impact velocitiy on average. The AK-47 fires its 7.62mm, 125gr bullet
around 2300feet per second. The AK-74, uses a 5.45mm bullet with a
weight of around 55grs and a muzzle velocity of around 2900 FPS. Of
course the heavier bullet will retain far more kinetic energy than
the small one.

Terminal velocity is dependant on shape of the leading profile. If a
bullet was fired STRAIGHT UP, it will generally fall and land on its
base. While the bullets upwards trajectory slows, then stalls, then
reverses, its STILL spinning as a result of the rifling in the barrel
of the weapon it was fired from. This was demonstrated many times by
various ballistics labs.

http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm
Bullets in the Sky

We frequently get questions about firing bullets vertically into the
air. The most frequent question is, "Will bullets fired into the air
return to the earth at the same speed they left the gun?" Other
questions asked are; "How far does the bullet travel when fired
vertically and how long does it take to come down, or does the falling
bullet have enough energy to be lethal should it strike someone on the
ground?"

Some have tried vertical shooting, but very few have had any luck
hearing the bullet come back and strike the ground. When a bullet is
fired vertically it immediately begins to slow down because of the
effects of gravity and air drag on the bullet. The bullet deceleration
continues until at some point the bullet momentarily stops and then it
begins to fall back toward earth. A well-balanced bullet will fall
base first. Depending on bullet design, some bullets may tumble on
their way down and others may turn over and come down point first.

The bullet speed will increase until it reaches its terminal velocity.
The bullet reaches terminal velocity when the air drag equals the pull
of gravity or stating it another way, the bullet weight and drag are
balanced. Once this velocity is achieved the bullet will fall no
faster.

In 1920 the U.S. Army Ordnance conducted a series of experiments to
try and determine the velocity of falling bullets. The tests were
performed from a platform in the middle of a lake near Miami, Florida.
The platform was ten feet square and a thin sheet of armor plate was
placed over the men firing the gun. The gun was held in a fixture that
would allow the gun to be adjusted to bring the shots close to the
platform. It was surmised that the sound of the falling bullets could
be heard when they hit the water or the platform. They fired .30
caliber, 150 gr., Spitzer point bullets, at a velocity of 2,700 f.p.s.
Using the bullet ballistic coefficient and elapsed time from firing
until the bullet struck the water, they calculated that the bullet
traveled 9,000 feet in 18 seconds and fell to earth in 31 seconds for
a total time of 49 seconds.

As a comparison, the .30 caliber bullet fired in a vacuum at 2,700
f.p.s. would rise nearly 21.5 miles and require 84 seconds to make the
ascent and another 84 seconds to make its descent. It would return
with the same velocity that it left the gun. This gives you some idea
of what air resistance or drag does to a bullet in flight.

Wind can have a dramatic effect on where a vertically fired bullet
lands. A 5 mile per hour wind will displace the 150 gr. bullet about
365 ft based on the time it takes the bullet to make the round trip to
earth. In addition the wind at ground level may be blowing in an
entirely different direction than it is at 9,000 feet. It is no wonder
that it is so difficult to determine where a falling bullet will land.

Out of the more than 500 shots fired from the test platform only 4
falling bullets struck the platform and one fell in the boat near the
platform. One of the bullets striking the platform left a 1/16 inch
deep mark in the soft pine board. The bullet struck base first.

Based on the results of these tests it was concluded that the bullet
return velocity was about 300 f.p.s. For the 150 gr. bullet this
corresponds to an energy of 30 foot pounds. Earlier the Army had
determined that, on the average, it required 60 foot pounds of energy
to produce a disabling wound. Based on this information, a falling 150
gr. service bullet would not be lethal, although it could produce a
serious wound.

Many other experiments have been made to find the amount of air drag
on a .30 caliber bullet at various velocities and it was found that
the drag at 320 f.p.s. balances the weight of the .021 lb. (150 gr.)
bullet and terminal velocity is achieved. For larger calibers the
bullet terminal velocity is higher since the bullet weight is greater
in relation to the diameter. Major Julian Hatcher in his book
Hatcher’s Notebook estimates that a 12 inch shell weighing 1000 pounds
and fired straight up would return with a speed of 1,300 to 1,400 feet
per second and over 28 million foot pounds of striking energy."
********************

Its been my experience that most fatalities or injuries from "spent"
bullets were the result of a bullet that was fired at a low angle
(less than 45', and as such retains a good percentage of its forewards
velocity as gravity drags its trajectory downwards. Some of those
folks are not particularly careful when doing the AK Dance, as
witnessed on TV broadcasts over the last 20 yrs from the Middle East.

Gunner
" ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age...
I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues
as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity,
bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity,
fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable
choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with
every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we
accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we
kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for
Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and
then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We
*assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his
fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation
to keep the State out of the church business, we've
destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*.
Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives

In article , says...
This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies
celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the
air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ?
...snippage...

General Julian Hatcher did *extensive* experimentation on this very
topic and wrote about it in "Hatcher's Notebook" (required reading in
some circles).

An interesting tidbit, it's almost impossible for the shooter to land
bullets near the firing position. Even with mounted weapons; the winds
aloft, especially during the last second of upward and first second of
downward travel when the bullet travels up 16 feet and down 16 feet at
an elevation of approximately 9000 feet, really can push a bullet
around.

Anyway, it's an interesting study, documented in book that is quite a
good read with plenty of metal (eg. heat treatment) content.

Highly recommended!
--
Doug d e s @ i n d i a n c h i e f d o t c o m
http://www.des.indianchief.com/index.htm

In article , Spehro Pefhany says...

Sounds "suspicious" to me- bullet went right through his skull. Wanna
bet that the guy with the gun turns out to have actually been up in
the tree, or something like that.

Climbing around on the cross mabye?

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article ,
"JTMcC" wrote:

"Chris Oates" none wrote in message
...

"Dean" wrote in message
...
This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies
celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into
the
air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall back
much
slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing a
fair
clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess in
Iraq
its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know
about
guns I thought I'd ask here.

Yes, same velocity they went up with


That sure doesn't sound right to me. A bullet or any other object fired into
the air, let's say straight up to keep it simple, will slow until it finally
stops and begins to fall back to earth. I would think the effect of gravity
and wind resistance would determine the maximun velocity of the falling
bullet (object), not the velocity at which it was fired upward with. The
same speed would be realized as if you had simply dropped the bullet
(object) at the same altitude from a hot air balloon. Feel free to correct
me if I'm wrong.

No correction. You're 100% right.

I've long since forgotten what the exact number for "terminal velocity"
is (120-ish MPH, isn't it?) but whatever the value is, that's the top
speed Mr. Bullet is going to attain on the way down. Even so, there
*ARE* fatalities from bullets fired skyward, even here in the good ol'
US of A. The last one that happened close enough to me to make the local
rag (and therefore be able to hit my own personal "radar screen") was a
2 year old in Detroit on a new years eve a few years back. Id memory
serves me correctly, the round came in a few degrees off the vertical,
broke her nursery room window, continued into her crib, which was
located just below the window, and hit her in the head.

Idiots forget that "what goes up, must come down".

--
Don Bruder - --- Preferred Email - SpamAssassinated.
Hate SPAM? See http://www.spamassassin.org for some seriously great info.
I will choose a path that's clear: I will choose Free Will! - N. Peart
Fly trap info pages: http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/Horses/FlyTrap/index.html

This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the Iraqies
celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns into the
air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ?
...snippage...

I have plenty of holes in the thin gauge corrugated aluminum sheets that make
up the roof of the canopy at the back of the shop.
Some of the holes make it appear that the bullet hit it flat on the side. None
of the holes look like a hole would if the bullet had been shot at it.
None of the falling bullets have ever pierced the thicker gauge steel roof of
the Morton building the canopy is up against.
I've never inspected the builtup roof of the main building to look for damage
from falling bullets.
I do have a bullet hole in the rollup door in the front of the building. That
hole was not from a falling bullet.

It tends to sound like a war zone in East Los Angeles on July 4 and New Years.
The police usually park under an overpass or other structure at midnight on New
Years Eve.

Les

"Tim Williams" wrote in message ...
"Chris Oates" none wrote in message
...
Yes, same velocity they went up with

Nope. As soon as it leaves the barrel it's slowing down, as, AFAIK,
bullets are supersonic, and I know of nothing that has a terminal speed
greater than the speed of sound, at least at this size! After it reaches
the apex, where its vertical speed is zero, it is now speeding up, and
will slowly (exponential decay style) approach terminal speed. Donno what
number that is, though.

Tim

Tim:
Check "Hatcher's Notebook" and in the section on 'Bullets from the
sky' he records considerable data on experiments of vertical firing of
..30 cal 150 grain ammunition. With a muzzle velocity of 2700 ft/sec
they averaged only 300 ft/sec when they returned to the ground. This
gives an energy level of 30 ft. pounds and the Army considers 60 foot
pounds to produce a disabling wound. ("Hatcher's Notebook", Third
edition, pages 510 to 517). The majority of the bullets returned to
earth base first.

J.R. Williams

"Don Bruder" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"JTMcC" wrote:

"Chris Oates" none wrote in message
...

"Dean" wrote in message
...
This is sort of metalwork - it involves lead. I was watching the
Iraqies
celebrating the capture of Saddam by firing their rifles and guns
into
the
air. How dangerous are the bullets coming down ? I know they fall
back
much
slower than they leave the gun barrel, but they must still be doing
a
fair
clip. They said 4 people so far have been killed by this but I guess
in
Iraq
its hard to know which bullets came from where. As a few of you know
about
guns I thought I'd ask here.

Yes, same velocity they went up with


That sure doesn't sound right to me. A bullet or any other object fired
into
the air, let's say straight up to keep it simple, will slow until it
finally
stops and begins to fall back to earth. I would think the effect of
gravity
and wind resistance would determine the maximun velocity of the falling
bullet (object), not the velocity at which it was fired upward with. The
same speed would be realized as if you had simply dropped the bullet
(object) at the same altitude from a hot air balloon. Feel free to
correct
me if I'm wrong.

No correction. You're 100% right.

I've long since forgotten what the exact number for "terminal velocity"
is (120-ish MPH, isn't it?) but whatever the value is, that's the top
speed Mr. Bullet is going to attain on the way down. Even so, there
*ARE* fatalities from bullets fired skyward, even here in the good ol'
US of A. The last one that happened close enough to me to make the local
rag (and therefore be able to hit my own personal "radar screen") was a
2 year old in Detroit on a new years eve a few years back. Id memory
serves me correctly, the round came in a few degrees off the vertical,
broke her nursery room window, continued into her crib, which was
located just below the window, and hit her in the head.

Idiots forget that "what goes up, must come down".

--
Don Bruder - --- Preferred Email - SpamAssassinated.
Hate SPAM? See http://www.spamassassin.org for some seriously great
info.
I will choose a path that's clear: I will choose Free Will! - N. Peart
Fly trap info pages:
http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/Horses/FlyTrap/index.html

Terminal velocity is a function of weight and aerodynamics. A led bullet
will
have a higher terminal velocity than a feather. The terminal velocity is
reached
when the aerodynamic drag of the object equals the weight of the object.

Pete.

Don Bruder wrote:


I've long since forgotten what the exact number for "terminal velocity"
is (120-ish MPH, isn't it?) but whatever the value is, that's the top
speed Mr. Bullet is going to attain on the way down.

Don Bruder -

I don't know for sure BUT I would think that terminal velocity would
depend on the drag coeficient and that can vary all over the place
for different shapes or even orientiations of the same object.
...lew...

It is unclear if the accounts given below involve bullets falling only under
the influence of gravity - that is straight down. It is far more likely
they involve "stray" bullets that retain some component of forward velocity
imparted by the firing charge. Gunner's comments, elsewhere in this post,
make it clear that "service size" projectiles falling only under the force
of gravity are not likely to inflict mortal wounds.

Kinetic energy = 1/2 mv*2

In the case of a 150 grain bullet falling at 300 fps, its kinetic energy is:

Ke = 0.5 x (150/7000)/32) x 300*2 = ~30 ft. lbs.

Bullet weight in grains divided by 7000 = weight in lbs. Weight divided by
32 = poundals or mass associated with gravity.

Bob Swinney




"lane" lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote in message
...

"Gunluvver2" wrote in message
...
Tell that to the Klansman that died from one.



lane,
If you can post a link to that article about the KKK member killed by
the
bullet I would like to read it.
Dennis

I don't understand how anyone can think that falling bullet doesn't have
the capacity to inflict a fatal injury. There are so many reports, they
cannot be ignored. It is an urban myth that they are not dangerous.

Besides the ones that Spehro already gave you:

http://timblair.spleenville.com/archives/005183.php
and more
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a950414b.html

"20 Kuwaitis died from falling bullets"
http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/homework/s95523.htm

"cousin of mine was killed several years ago during Mardi Gras when a
falling spent bullet pierced her brain"
http://howthingswork.virginia.edu/vacuum_cleaners.html

"the .45- caliber bullet struck Stephanie just below the knee and 6 to 8
inches down her leg before stopping near her ankle."
http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/0...0616.001.shtml

The bullet left a small burn mark above her ankle before it entered just
below the ankle and traveled about four inches into her foot
http://starbulletin.com/98/01/02/news/story3.html

there was a hard lump in the right side of her neck. She'd been hit by a
falling bullet

http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/0...d?OpenDocument

Terry Smith lives with a bullet lodged in her left lung &
death of a 14-year-old Shannon Smith in June 1999
http://www.beloitdailynews.com/1200/gunn30.htm

He had been hit in the head by a falling bullet last week
http://www.countercurrents.org/iraq-hider250703.htm

Research indicates that a bullet fired into the sky can climb and remain
in
flight for 30 seconds or longer. As the bullet falls, it can hit a ground
level velocity of approximately 140 miles per hour; a velocity which can
penetrate the human skull.
http://www.lapdonline.org/press_rele...12/pr02798.htm

a falling bullet instantly felled Joe. It entered the back of his skull at
the top of his occipital lobe, penetrated through his cerebellum, and
lodged
just millimeters from Joe's spinal cord. Had the bullet traveled one
half-inch further, Joe would have been killed.
http://www.americancynic.com/10181999.html

Tim, consider this:

Fire a cannon ball exactly horizontal (level) with the earth. At the exact
instant the cannon ball leaves the muzzle, drop another cannon ball from the
same height. The 2 cannon balls will reach the earth at the same time.

Bob Swinney
"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"Chris Oates" none wrote in message
...
Yes, same velocity they went up with

Nope. As soon as it leaves the barrel it's slowing down, as, AFAIK,
bullets are supersonic, and I know of nothing that has a terminal speed
greater than the speed of sound, at least at this size! After it reaches
the apex, where its vertical speed is zero, it is now speeding up, and
will slowly (exponential decay style) approach terminal speed. Donno what
number that is, though.

Tim

--
"That's for the courts to decide." - Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

When we reshingled the roof, we found a .45 slug stuck in the ridge row
point first. It had penetrated 3 or 4 layers of fiberglass shingles before
stopping. Stupid neighbor.

The nose shows spiral scratches from the grit on the shingles. I still have
it in a box somewhere...

StaticsJason

"lane" lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote in message
...

"Gunluvver2" wrote in message
...
Tell that to the Klansman that died from one.



lane,
If you can post a link to that article about the KKK member killed by
the
bullet I would like to read it.
Dennis

I don't understand how anyone can think that falling bullet doesn't have
the capacity to inflict a fatal injury. There are so many reports, they
cannot be ignored. It is an urban myth that they are not dangerous.

Besides the ones that Spehro already gave you:

http://timblair.spleenville.com/archives/005183.php
and more
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a950414b.html

"20 Kuwaitis died from falling bullets"
http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/homework/s95523.htm

"cousin of mine was killed several years ago during Mardi Gras when a
falling spent bullet pierced her brain"
http://howthingswork.virginia.edu/vacuum_cleaners.html

"the .45- caliber bullet struck Stephanie just below the knee and 6 to 8
inches down her leg before stopping near her ankle."
http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/0...0616.001.shtml

The bullet left a small burn mark above her ankle before it entered just
below the ankle and traveled about four inches into her foot
http://starbulletin.com/98/01/02/news/story3.html

there was a hard lump in the right side of her neck. She'd been hit by a
falling bullet

http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/0...d?OpenDocument

Terry Smith lives with a bullet lodged in her left lung &
death of a 14-year-old Shannon Smith in June 1999
http://www.beloitdailynews.com/1200/gunn30.htm

He had been hit in the head by a falling bullet last week
http://www.countercurrents.org/iraq-hider250703.htm

Research indicates that a bullet fired into the sky can climb and remain
in
flight for 30 seconds or longer. As the bullet falls, it can hit a ground
level velocity of approximately 140 miles per hour; a velocity which can
penetrate the human skull.
http://www.lapdonline.org/press_rele...12/pr02798.htm

a falling bullet instantly felled Joe. It entered the back of his skull at
the top of his occipital lobe, penetrated through his cerebellum, and
lodged
just millimeters from Joe's spinal cord. Had the bullet traveled one
half-inch further, Joe would have been killed.
http://www.americancynic.com/10181999.html

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:43:10 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:

I've long since forgotten what the exact number for "terminal velocity"
is (120-ish MPH, isn't it?)

That's for people with their arms out. Over 200mph for people with
their arms folded back.

Bullets are aerodynamic, but only when pointed forwards. They're also
only barely stable (excess stability requires drag), so they're
unlikely to re-orient themselves correctly after first starting to
tumble. Some figures claim around 400mph for an oriented rifle
bullet, but a mere 150mph for one that's tumbling.

It is possible to go supersonic in free-fall - the WW2 Grand Slam bomb
was designed to do just that (and caused a lot of aerodynamic
headaches for trying to).

As casualties have already been reported from the celebratory firing,
the question is a little academic.