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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

Attaching Shotgun ribs...



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 30th 05, 02:46 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Attaching Shotgun ribs...

Any of you guys know how a shotgun barrel rib is attached? Anyone ever
add one to a gun that never had one?

I have a pretty cheap CVA 12ga single that I had gotten for one of my
sons to trapshoot with, because it was light enough for him to hold up
when he was smaller. He is now 15 and bigger/stronger than I am (yikes!)
so that is no longer an issue.

I am thinking I might like to make some additions to this gun, mostly
just for the fun of trying. One thing I would like to add is a rib with
a center bead. I have some ideas to make a rib for it, but I have no
idea how they typically are attached to the barrel. I seem to recall
reading that they are sometines soldered on, but I may be imaganing
that, and have no recollection as to what sort of soldering that would be.

I have decent shop capibility here, lathe, mill, MIG, oxy-acet,
air-acet, (TIG is available, off-site), epoxy, crazyglue, duct tape, etc.

I know we have some gunsmith types around here, any guidance, tip, ideas?

Thanks for any thoughts!

-AL A.
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  #2  
Old November 30th 05, 03:32 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Attaching Shotgun ribs...

In the past they were all silver soldered. Quite a difficult task on a
side by side double as the barrels were also silver soldered together
and trying to add a rib was likely to cause the barrels to come
unstuck. Back when I was involved in gunsmithing George Hoenig of
Boise Idaho was the only gunsmith in the U.S. skilled enough to do that
sort of job. He built multibarrel shotgun/rifles from scratch. Now he
builds $30,000.00 shotguns of his own design.
With the current technological improvements in adhesives you might get
away with some sort of epoxy especially with a nylon or lexan rib. If
you suceed in your efforts you might well have a product you could
market if the price wern't too high. You don't have much to lose by
trying on inexpensive single bbl guns so have fun with it. Good luck.
73 Gary

  #3  
Old November 30th 05, 04:30 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Attaching Shotgun ribs...

I would have thought that in that application, as is commonly done in
jewelry work, a high temp silver solder would be used for the initial
barrel join then a lower temp solder for the rib. Also a property of the
silver solder that I normally use, easyflo number 2, is that the join
requires a higher temperature to melt it again after its initial use so
making joins close by easier without to much problem with remelting.

Gary wrote:

In the past they were all silver soldered. Quite a difficult task on a
side by side double as the barrels were also silver soldered together
and trying to add a rib was likely to cause the barrels to come
unstuck. Back when I was involved in gunsmithing George Hoenig of
Boise Idaho was the only gunsmith in the U.S. skilled enough to do that
sort of job. He built multibarrel shotgun/rifles from scratch. Now he
builds $30,000.00 shotguns of his own design.
With the current technological improvements in adhesives you might get
away with some sort of epoxy especially with a nylon or lexan rib. If
you suceed in your efforts you might well have a product you could
market if the price wern't too high. You don't have much to lose by
trying on inexpensive single bbl guns so have fun with it. Good luck.
73 Gary


  #4  
Old November 30th 05, 06:04 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Attaching Shotgun ribs...

When a customer brought a double barrel shotgun into the shop and asked
you to install a rib you had no way of knowing what type of silver
solder had been originaly been used or what temperature it would melt
at. With no method of checking the temperature except for color
changes it took a great deal of expertese to do that sort of job. Way
beyond the skills of the average gunsmith at that time (1960's and
'70's). George got a lot of work sent to him by other gunsmiths who
didn't feel up to the job. He could even regulate double rifles so
that both barrels shot to the same point of aim with a given load by
unsoldering the barrels and sliding tiny wedges between them as he
soldered them back together. Others who -thought- they could handle it
often regreted it dearly. When you ruin someones expensive double
shotgun it can -really- cost you. You are right about the technique
with the two different solders being the way to go. It may be simpler
for jewlers but gunsmiths are confronted with multibarreled guns from
many different countries and ranging from brand new to hundreds of
years old. Not to mention past repairs that may have been done with
varying degrees of skill.
Fortunetly AL A does not have this problem. He just needs to ensure he
doesn't over heat the single bbl and take the temper out of the steel.
On a rifle he could mill small dovetails to attach the rib blocks but
the shotgun's wall thickness won't allow this except possibly at the
breech end. Brownells probably still sells ribs ready to solder on.
Only problen with silver soldering the rib will be that the heat will
ruin the bluing which will need to be redone and hot salt rebluing can
attack some solders. Maybe he might want to try rust bluing it which
is a slow process but results in a beautiful finish.
Have fun and learn.
73 Gary

  #5  
Old November 30th 05, 06:11 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Attaching Shotgun ribs...

Gary wrote:
In the past they were all silver soldered. Quite a difficult task on a
side by side double as the barrels were also silver soldered together
and trying to add a rib was likely to cause the barrels to come
unstuck. Back when I was involved in gunsmithing George Hoenig of
Boise Idaho was the only gunsmith in the U.S. skilled enough to do that
sort of job. He built multibarrel shotgun/rifles from scratch. Now he
builds $30,000.00 shotguns of his own design.
With the current technological improvements in adhesives you might get
away with some sort of epoxy especially with a nylon or lexan rib. If
you suceed in your efforts you might well have a product you could
market if the price wern't too high. You don't have much to lose by
trying on inexpensive single bbl guns so have fun with it. Good luck.
73 Gary


Thanks, Gary. I am thinking that I will likely make the rib from steel
(metalworking content!) as that gun could use a bit more weight to it
anyhow. Any idea as to what sort of silver solder one would use? Would
it be the type with high silver content or the lower temp "silver
bearing" solder (5 or 10% silver, IIRC) stuff? Dosen't seem to me that
the joint would be highly stressed.

Is there any concern for causing the barrel to warp from the heat or
compromising the heat treatment of the barrel?

While I would not be overly distressed if this gun did not come out so
well (very little money involved), I'm not really in a hurry to wreck
it, either. I also don't want to end up with a gun that blows up when
you shoot it, been there & done that, no injuries but didn't like it.


just trying to get a little guidance, so I don't run into this
half-cocked. (pun not intended, but acknowledged and left in anyhow...)

Thanks again for any help.

-AL A.
  #6  
Old November 30th 05, 07:34 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Attaching Shotgun ribs...

Traditional double barrels were completely assembled with soft solder (50-50
tin-lead) from day one and many still are today. This required them to be
rust blued since hot bath bluing eats soft solder. In recent years some
double makers have gone to furnace brazing. Those can be hot blued.

The master rib installer for single barrel guns today is Simmons
http://www.simmonsguns.com/ . They attach ribs by silver soldering the
posts to the barrel in a special jig. Then the barrel is placed in their
special machine which mills the tops of the posts to the correct height and
cuts a longitudinal dovetail in each post top. The rib itself has a
matching dovetail on the bottom and slides over the posts. Usually the
receiver end of the rib is fixed to the gun and the muzzle end floats
freely. This is required to allow the barrel to expand from the heat of
firing without causing it to warp upwards.

Poly-Choke http://www.poly-choke.com/ makes one piece aluminum ribs that
are contour milled to match the barrel precisely. They are attached with a
special flexible epoxy adhesive. The flexibility plus the higher expansion
coefficient of aluminum eliminates the heat warpage problem.

Randy

"Gary" wrote in message
ups.com...
In the past they were all silver soldered. Quite a difficult task on a
side by side double as the barrels were also silver soldered together
and trying to add a rib was likely to cause the barrels to come
unstuck. Back when I was involved in gunsmithing George Hoenig of
Boise Idaho was the only gunsmith in the U.S. skilled enough to do that
sort of job. He built multibarrel shotgun/rifles from scratch. Now he
builds $30,000.00 shotguns of his own design.
With the current technological improvements in adhesives you might get
away with some sort of epoxy especially with a nylon or lexan rib. If
you suceed in your efforts you might well have a product you could
market if the price wern't too high. You don't have much to lose by
trying on inexpensive single bbl guns so have fun with it. Good luck.
73 Gary



  #7  
Old November 30th 05, 09:52 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: n/a
Default Attaching Shotgun ribs...

I couldn't give you any better information than Randy has. Poly-Choke
sounds great if they have one with the right contour for your barrel.
If you want to machine your own the proceedure of the Simmons Co. could
be adapted. If the bbl was a straight tube it would be easy to mil a
radius in a solid rib to match the bbl, it's the contour that makes it
harder. Posts can be made out of pieces of rectangular bar stock with
multiple different radius cuts on the bottom to fit the bbl. Cut all
the posts a little long, attach solidly to the bbl. Put the bbl
between centers on your mill and lightly flycut the posts to the same
level. You could use round stock for the rib posts and tap the top
ends to attach the rib with counter bored allen head cap screws to cut
down on the total soldering needed.
If you could get some of the flexable epoxy for the barrel/post
connection that would probably withstand the whipping of the barrel
when fired. If the epoxy does not work out I'd try the lower
temperature silver solder first and if it does not do the job I'd use
the strongest you can find and protect the areas of the barrel you are
not heating with some damp wraps for heat sinking. Practice on a peice
of scrap bbl or tubing until you can attach them quickly to reduce heat
damage.
One advantage in lower price guns is that the bbl is often thicker than
more expensive ones which are made as light as possible and of better
steel.
I don't think you will have much success trying to solder on a solid
rib unless you have access to an oven long enough for the whole bbl at
one go. Then you would put it all together with strips of solder
between and clamp it down in the oven. Heat and serve.
I hope I have been of some help. Good luck with it however you decide
to proceed.
73 Gary

  #8  
Old November 30th 05, 10:06 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: n/a
Default Attaching Shotgun ribs...

Thanks, all good points. I was approaching it from the point of view of
someone doing all the work, not reworking where you can have may unknown
quantities.

Gary wrote:

When a customer brought a double barrel shotgun into the shop and asked
you to install a rib you had no way of knowing what type of silver
solder had been originaly been used or what temperature it would melt
at. With no method of checking the temperature except for color
changes it took a great deal of expertese to do that sort of job. Way
beyond the skills of the average gunsmith at that time (1960's and
'70's). George got a lot of work sent to him by other gunsmiths who
didn't feel up to the job. He could even regulate double rifles so
that both barrels shot to the same point of aim with a given load by
unsoldering the barrels and sliding tiny wedges between them as he
soldered them back together. Others who -thought- they could handle it
often regreted it dearly. When you ruin someones expensive double
shotgun it can -really- cost you. You are right about the technique
with the two different solders being the way to go. It may be simpler
for jewlers but gunsmiths are confronted with multibarreled guns from
many different countries and ranging from brand new to hundreds of
years old. Not to mention past repairs that may have been done with
varying degrees of skill.
Fortunetly AL A does not have this problem. He just needs to ensure he
doesn't over heat the single bbl and take the temper out of the steel.
On a rifle he could mill small dovetails to attach the rib blocks but
the shotgun's wall thickness won't allow this except possibly at the
breech end. Brownells probably still sells ribs ready to solder on.
Only problen with silver soldering the rib will be that the heat will
ruin the bluing which will need to be redone and hot salt rebluing can
attack some solders. Maybe he might want to try rust bluing it which
is a slow process but results in a beautiful finish.
Have fun and learn.
73 Gary


  #9  
Old December 1st 05, 01:01 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Attaching Shotgun ribs...

Gary wrote:
Snip bunch of good stuff...

I don't think you will have much success trying to solder on a solid
rib unless you have access to an oven long enough for the whole bbl at
one go. Then you would put it all together with strips of solder
between and clamp it down in the oven. Heat and serve.
I hope I have been of some help. Good luck with it however you decide
to proceed.
73 Gary


Gary,
Thanks for all of the great info. I would not likely try a solid rib,
and I really like your suggestion of the multiple posts and then
attaching the rib with counterbored screws. There is a bit of contour to
the barrel near the breech end, but it mostly appears (without measuring
it) to be a straight tube.

I have done lots of silversoldering in my job and other hobbies, so I
feel pretty confident at that part of it, espically with lower temp
stuff. Never done it on a gun before, however.

This project is still in the early "foraging for info" stage, it
probably won't get rolling until almost springtime, but it is fun to
kick around.

Thanks again to you and the other guys how replied here and directly.
I really appreciate all of the ideas!

-AL A.




  #10  
Old December 1st 05, 01:16 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: n/a
Default Attaching Shotgun ribs...

could you use the tig to melt the silver solder? that way the heat affected
zone would be small because of the arc size.

"Al A." wrote in message
...
Any of you guys know how a shotgun barrel rib is attached? Anyone ever add
one to a gun that never had one?

I have a pretty cheap CVA 12ga single that I had gotten for one of my
sons to trapshoot with, because it was light enough for him to hold up
when he was smaller. He is now 15 and bigger/stronger than I am (yikes!)
so that is no longer an issue.

I am thinking I might like to make some additions to this gun, mostly
just for the fun of trying. One thing I would like to add is a rib with a
center bead. I have some ideas to make a rib for it, but I have no idea
how they typically are attached to the barrel. I seem to recall reading
that they are sometines soldered on, but I may be imaganing that, and have
no recollection as to what sort of soldering that would be.

I have decent shop capibility here, lathe, mill, MIG, oxy-acet, air-acet,
(TIG is available, off-site), epoxy, crazyglue, duct tape, etc.

I know we have some gunsmith types around here, any guidance, tip, ideas?

Thanks for any thoughts!

-AL A.



 




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