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  #1   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=35862
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on,
and walk down the street with no permit of any kind:
some say it's crazy. However, 4 out of 5 US murders
are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" -- Andrew Ford
  #2   Report Post  
Leo Lichtman
 
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Gunner wrote: (clip) 4 out of 5 US murders are committed in the other half
of the country (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
You can divide the country in "half" by area, by number of states, or by
population. Unless you know the murder rate per capita under the two sets
of laws, you can be misled by statistics like this.





  #3   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 05:51:01 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:


Gunner wrote: (clip) 4 out of 5 US murders are committed in the other half
of the country (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
You can divide the country in "half" by area, by number of states, or by
population. Unless you know the murder rate per capita under the two sets
of laws, you can be misled by statistics like this.




its pretty clear to me.

Gunner
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on,
and walk down the street with no permit of any kind:
some say it's crazy. However, 4 out of 5 US murders
are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" -- Andrew Ford
  #4   Report Post  
AZOTIC
 
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You can divide the country in "half" by area, by number of states, or by
population. Unless you know the murder rate per capita under the two sets of
laws, you can be misled by statistics like this.

Statistics are only usefull to law makers trying promote
thier own agenda, which in most cases is not in the best interest
of the average citizen. Unfortunatly most people will ignore
truth in favor of statistics that support the illusion of saftey
provided by laws.

Best Regards
Tom.





  #5   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Gunner" wrote in message
...

"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on,
and walk down the street with no permit of any kind:
some say it's crazy. However, 4 out of 5 US murders
are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" --

Andrew Ford

Mr. Ford, if there is such a person, is crazy. 'You want the numbers, or
would you rather keep believing a lie and perpetuating it, in good old
effective Joseph Goebbel's style? g

Oh, what the hell: There are 27 open carry states and they represent 32.95%
of the population. They also are the states in which 31.26% of the murders
are committed. Those are 2001 figures, US Census and FBI Uniform Crime
Reports. I have the Excel workbooks on it if you don't believe it, and
you're welcome to them.

If there is an Andrew Ford, and if you know who he is, you can tell him for
me that he's either a fool or a liar, or a little bit of both.

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)




  #6   Report Post  
Jim Kovar
 
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In article , huntres23
@optonline.net says...
Mr. Ford, if there is such a person, is crazy. 'You want the numbers, or
would you rather keep believing a lie and perpetuating it, in good old
effective Joseph Goebbel's style? g


Damn. Here you go again, confusing Gunner with facts.
  #7   Report Post  
Glenn Ashmore
 
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Ed Huntress wrote:

Oh, what the hell: There are 27 open carry states and they represent 32.95%
of the population. They also are the states in which 31.26% of the murders
are committed. Those are 2001 figures, US Census and FBI Uniform Crime
Reports. I have the Excel workbooks on it if you don't believe it, and
you're welcome to them.


I am far from a gun nut and cringe every time I say something supporting
Gunner but those statistics, on a per capata basis, seem to say that
open carry laws have very little to do with murder rates.

If there is an Andrew Ford, and if you know who he is, you can tell him for
me that he's either a fool or a liar, or a little bit of both.


Don't you watch Faux News? That is the style of today's conservative
reporting. Take an insignificant fact, twist it a little, add a few
false assumptions for support and spew it out as "news".

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

  #8   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Jim Kovar" wrote in message
. ..
In article , huntres23
@optonline.net says...
Mr. Ford, if there is such a person, is crazy. 'You want the numbers, or
would you rather keep believing a lie and perpetuating it, in good old
effective Joseph Goebbel's style? g


Damn. Here you go again, confusing Gunner with facts.


You watch. It won't faze him in the least. He'll keep using it even though
he knows it's a crock of bull. He's too much of a True Believer to let the
facts stand in the way of a good rant. g

Ed Huntress


  #9   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:E4nyb.72572$xV6.42361@lakeread04...


Ed Huntress wrote:

Oh, what the hell: There are 27 open carry states and they represent

32.95%
of the population. They also are the states in which 31.26% of the

murders
are committed. Those are 2001 figures, US Census and FBI Uniform Crime
Reports. I have the Excel workbooks on it if you don't believe it, and
you're welcome to them.


I am far from a gun nut and cringe every time I say something supporting
Gunner but those statistics, on a per capata basis, seem to say that
open carry laws have very little to do with murder rates.


That's about the size of it. There seems to be no relationship at all. The
contention that 4/5 of the murders occur in non-open-carry states is either
looney or a lie, and, of course, it conveniently ignores the populations in
those states. I vote for a lie, having done some pro-gun lobbying myself and
knowing something about the people who cook up those numbers.

If there is an Andrew Ford, and if you know who he is, you can tell him

for
me that he's either a fool or a liar, or a little bit of both.


Don't you watch Faux News? That is the style of today's conservative
reporting. Take an insignificant fact, twist it a little, add a few
false assumptions for support and spew it out as "news".


I'm reading a book right now about the psychology of persuasion and
propaganda (_Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion_, by Robert Cialidini.
Widely acclaimed book; all my friends in advertising and marketing are
reading it. g). Although it was written before the latest round of culture
wars, you'll recognize today's key players in there, and the common human
weaknesses they prey upon.

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)


  #10   Report Post  
Jim Dauven
 
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Yea but you forgot that California has an open carry law and
leads the nation in murders as a state. Of course the
population of California is about 20% of the nation as a
whole.

I wonder where your figures are if you lump California with
the non carry states.

I'll bet your percentages go way way down.


The Independent


Ed Huntress wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on,
and walk down the street with no permit of any kind:
some say it's crazy. However, 4 out of 5 US murders
are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" --

Andrew Ford

Mr. Ford, if there is such a person, is crazy. 'You want the numbers, or
would you rather keep believing a lie and perpetuating it, in good old
effective Joseph Goebbel's style? g

Oh, what the hell: There are 27 open carry states and they represent 32.95%
of the population. They also are the states in which 31.26% of the murders
are committed. Those are 2001 figures, US Census and FBI Uniform Crime
Reports. I have the Excel workbooks on it if you don't believe it, and
you're welcome to them.

If there is an Andrew Ford, and if you know who he is, you can tell him for
me that he's either a fool or a liar, or a little bit of both.

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)



  #11   Report Post  
Bing
 
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"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
et...

Mr. Ford, if there is such a person, is crazy. 'You want the numbers, or
would you rather keep believing a lie and perpetuating it, in good old
effective Joseph Goebbel's style? g

Geesh Ed. I'm considered by y'all as conservative and even I didnt buy that
one from Gunner.

Y'all are too worried about guns and not enough of what causes crime in the
first place. Lack of education, parental control, poverty, alcohol and
substance abuse, inner city BS and the lack of proper punishment.

Lots of things to fix that are at the crux of the biscuit. But, bring up
guns in any context and alluva sudden everybody's a statistician of sorts.
Gun crimes are easy to cite. The problems I stated are not so easy to track
down.

I know you were arguing with Gunner not me. Sowee to step on yer post but
thought I might nudge it in another direction. Hope ya dont mind.

Bing


  #12   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Bing" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
et...

Mr. Ford, if there is such a person, is crazy. 'You want the numbers, or
would you rather keep believing a lie and perpetuating it, in good old
effective Joseph Goebbel's style? g

Geesh Ed. I'm considered by y'all as conservative and even I didnt buy

that
one from Gunner.

Y'all are too worried about guns and not enough of what causes crime in

the
first place. Lack of education, parental control, poverty, alcohol and
substance abuse, inner city BS and the lack of proper punishment.


I'm not worried about guns much at all. My own collection is of a size that
the news reports call a "private arsenal" when they talk about some gun
owner who goes berserk.


Lots of things to fix that are at the crux of the biscuit. But, bring up
guns in any context and alluva sudden everybody's a statistician of sorts.
Gun crimes are easy to cite. The problems I stated are not so easy to

track
down.


Ah, but when Gunner et al. quote a statistic, you're supposed to BELIEVE it,
because it's a pro-gun statistic. People like Ford, in general (and I don't
know him so I can't say whether he's one of these or not) count on you not
checking out what they say. That's one of the methods Joseph Goebbels used
for the Nazis, if you've ever studied his work. That's how you perpetuate a
lie to serve your own ideological purposes.

What's wrong with the truth? Is it just too equivocal and boring these days?


I know you were arguing with Gunner not me. Sowee to step on yer post but
thought I might nudge it in another direction. Hope ya dont mind.


Not at all. I have my own ideology, which some people don't like. It's based
on the idea that the facts are more important and more valuable than
comfortable and unsupportable beliefs -- "I know what I believe," they say,
"and that's all that matters."

And an argument like the one you're making here is a legitimate one, while a
lie like Ford is perpetuating is not.

Ed Huntress


  #13   Report Post  
Carl Byrns
 
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On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 14:34:18 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Jim Kovar" wrote in message
...
In article , huntres23
@optonline.net says...
Mr. Ford, if there is such a person, is crazy. 'You want the numbers, or
would you rather keep believing a lie and perpetuating it, in good old
effective Joseph Goebbel's style? g


Damn. Here you go again, confusing Gunner with facts.


You watch. It won't faze him in the least. He'll keep using it even though
he knows it's a crock of bull. He's too much of a True Believer to let the
facts stand in the way of a good rant. g

Ed Huntress


Betcha a bagel he doesn't respond at all- that's his way of dealing
with anything he can't refute.

-Carl
  #14   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
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not crossposted

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 14:01:42 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
brought forth from the murky depths:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .

"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on,
and walk down the street with no permit of any kind:
some say it's crazy. However, 4 out of 5 US murders
are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" --

Andrew Ford

Mr. Ford, if there is such a person, is crazy. 'You want the numbers, or
would you rather keep believing a lie and perpetuating it, in good old
effective Joseph Goebbel's style? g

Oh, what the hell: There are 27 open carry states and they represent 32.95%
of the population. They also are the states in which 31.26% of the murders


That would reduce his claimed 80% down to 68.74%, not a large drop.
(murders outside the totin' area)


are committed. Those are 2001 figures, US Census and FBI Uniform Crime
Reports. I have the Excel workbooks on it if you don't believe it, and
you're welcome to them.


I'd like to see those workbooks, please, Ed.
(Deslash my email address and insert a 'v'.)


If there is an Andrew Ford, and if you know who he is, you can tell him for
me that he's either a fool or a liar, or a little bit of both.


Both. He was a senator in the CONgress.
http://www.google.com/search?&q=andrew+ford+handgun
nearly 3k hits.

================================================== ============
Like peace and quiet? Buy a phoneless cord.
http://www/diversify.com/stees.html Hilarious T-shirts online
================================================== ============
  #15   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
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On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 09:18:08 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
brought forth from the murky depths:

Don't you watch Faux News? That is the style of today's conservative
reporting. Take an insignificant fact, twist it a little, add a few
false assumptions for support and spew it out as "news".


Not that I want to stand up for the idiots claiming to be
conservatives nowadays, but the "little spin" you just discussed
is identical to that used by the liberals & environmentalists.
Hard fact is hard to come by.


================================================== ============
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http://www/diversify.com/stees.html Hilarious T-shirts online
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  #16   Report Post  
Bing
 
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"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
et...
I'm not worried about guns much at all. My own collection is of a size

that
the news reports call a "private arsenal" when they talk about some gun
owner who goes berserk.


Just dont git into trubble or thats all they will report on.

Ah, but when Gunner et al. quote a statistic, you're supposed to BELIEVE

it,
because it's a pro-gun statistic. People like Ford, in general (and I

don't
know him so I can't say whether he's one of these or not) count on you not
checking out what they say. That's one of the methods Joseph Goebbels used
for the Nazis, if you've ever studied his work. That's how you perpetuate

a
lie to serve your own ideological purposes.


Me thinks that happens on both sides of the aisle.

What's wrong with the truth? Is it just too equivocal and boring these

days?

Not many peeps wanna tell the truth I guess. Not many even know it.

I know you were arguing with Gunner not me. Sowee to step on yer post

but
thought I might nudge it in another direction. Hope ya dont mind.


Not at all. I have my own ideology, which some people don't like. It's

based
on the idea that the facts are more important and more valuable than
comfortable and unsupportable beliefs -- "I know what I believe," they

say,
"and that's all that matters."

And an argument like the one you're making here is a legitimate one, while

a
lie like Ford is perpetuating is not.


But my argument may be a lie too. Not that I purposely spread lies. Its just
my opinion, but it could be based on propaganda. Hard to figure out fact
from fiction on some things these dayz.

Bing


  #17   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article , Ed Huntress
says...

Not at all. I have my own ideology, which some people don't like. It's based
on the idea that the facts are more important and more valuable than
comfortable and unsupportable beliefs -- "I know what I believe," they say,
"and that's all that matters."


Odd. My personal suspicion is this exact reason is why one
former poster here departed. He (Peter Albrecht) objected
strenuously to the "my view is just as valid is your view"
theory of life. And was simply unable to avoid zooming
in and stepping on toes when the "valid" view that was
being maintained, was simply incorrect.

Fun to watch though. You, however, have a much smoother approach
to shooting somebody full of holes, Ed.

Jim

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please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
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  #18   Report Post  
BottleBob
 
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Ed Huntress wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on,
and walk down the street with no permit of any kind:
some say it's crazy. However, 4 out of 5 US murders
are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" --

Andrew Ford

Mr. Ford, if there is such a person, is crazy. 'You want the numbers, or
would you rather keep believing a lie and perpetuating it, in good old
effective Joseph Goebbel's style? g

Oh, what the hell: There are 27 open carry states and they represent 32.95%
of the population. They also are the states in which 31.26% of the murders
are committed. Those are 2001 figures, US Census and FBI Uniform Crime
Reports. I have the Excel workbooks on it if you don't believe it, and
you're welcome to them.

If there is an Andrew Ford, and if you know who he is, you can tell him for
me that he's either a fool or a liar, or a little bit of both.


Ed:

So would the Andrew Ford quote be acceptable if it were changed to:

============================================
"27 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on,
^^^^
and walk down the street with no permit of any kind:
some say it's crazy. However, **2 out of 3** US murders
^^^^^^^^^^^
are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" --
============================================

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
  #19   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
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On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 14:44:12 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
brought forth from the murky depths:


I'm reading a book right now about the psychology of persuasion and
propaganda (_Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion_, by Robert Cialidini.


It's hard to find with a bogus author. (Actually Cialdini, no middle
'i') My library has it and I'll check it out after I finish Niven's
"The Mote in God's Eye".


Widely acclaimed book; all my friends in advertising and marketing are


Sounds like my black-sheep cousin (an attorney) could use it, too.


reading it. g). Although it was written before the latest round of culture
wars, you'll recognize today's key players in there, and the common human
weaknesses they prey upon.


Written in 1985, revised in 1993. I'm sure our weaknesses haven't
changed that much.


================================================== ============
Like peace and quiet? Buy a phoneless cord.
http://www/diversify.com/stees.html Hilarious T-shirts online
================================================== ============
  #20   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Jim Dauven" wrote in message
...
Yea but you forgot that California has an open carry law and
leads the nation in murders as a state.


I didn't forget. California isn't an open-carry state. It's a "may-issue"
state that requires a CCW, just like New Jersey

Of course the
population of California is about 20% of the nation as a
whole.

I wonder where your figures are if you lump California with
the non carry states.


Right where they are as I reported them, because California IS a non-carry
state.


I'll bet your percentages go way way down.


The Independent


Guess again.

Ed Huntress




  #21   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Bing" wrote in message
...

But my argument may be a lie too. Not that I purposely spread lies. Its

just
my opinion, but it could be based on propaganda. Hard to figure out fact
from fiction on some things these dayz.


Not at all. Sometimes they can be looked up an measured to see if they're
true or not.

You aren't quoting phony statistics at "truth" to put forward your point.
You've introduced some things that need investigation. Maybe they can be
measured, or maybe they can't. But that's a legit basis for debate. Phony
stats are not.

Ed Huntress


  #22   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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Default OT Environmentalists may be in deep Kimchee

"BottleBob" wrote in message
...


Ed Huntress wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on,
and walk down the street with no permit of any kind:
some say it's crazy. However, 4 out of 5 US murders
are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" --

Andrew Ford

Mr. Ford, if there is such a person, is crazy. 'You want the numbers, or
would you rather keep believing a lie and perpetuating it, in good old
effective Joseph Goebbel's style? g

Oh, what the hell: There are 27 open carry states and they represent

32.95%
of the population. They also are the states in which 31.26% of the

murders
are committed. Those are 2001 figures, US Census and FBI Uniform Crime
Reports. I have the Excel workbooks on it if you don't believe it, and
you're welcome to them.

If there is an Andrew Ford, and if you know who he is, you can tell him

for
me that he's either a fool or a liar, or a little bit of both.


Ed:

So would the Andrew Ford quote be acceptable if it were changed to:

============================================
"27 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on,
^^^^
and walk down the street with no permit of any kind:
some say it's crazy. However, **2 out of 3** US murders
^^^^^^^^^^^
are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" --


It depends on whether you like propaganda or not. If you find that kind of
argument acceptable (and you know why it is or isn't), you, too, may be
accepted for a Joseph Goebbels Scholarship at the university of your choice.
g

However, it would be statistically correct, in the way that propaganda
sometimes uses the truth to tell lies. Ford's original quote is a lie
itself.

Ed Huntress


  #23   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"jim rozen" wrote in message
...

Fun to watch though. You, however, have a much smoother approach
to shooting somebody full of holes, Ed.


Gee, thanks, Jim...I think...

I'd tell these guys that I favor a much-easier-to-get CCW and open carry
with it, except that would spoil their preconceptions and they'd stop trying
to fight the facts. That would put a lid on their imaginations in a real
hurry, and it all would become excruciatingly dull. g

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)


  #24   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

That would reduce his claimed 80% down to 68.74%, not a large drop.
(murders outside the totin' area)


Then why did he say 4 out of 5?

And what was the point of counting "states," when those states make up less
than 1/3 of the population? Do you think there's a valid reason for it,
other than to give a false impression that many more people who live in the
1/2 of the states that don't have open carry are many times more likely to
get murdered? Hmm?

are committed. Those are 2001 figures, US Census and FBI Uniform Crime
Reports. I have the Excel workbooks on it if you don't believe it, and
you're welcome to them.


I'd like to see those workbooks, please, Ed.
(Deslash my email address and insert a 'v'.)


They're on their way. I make them for my own use, so you'll have to supply
neatness and organization as you see fit. g


If there is an Andrew Ford, and if you know who he is, you can tell him

for
me that he's either a fool or a liar, or a little bit of both.


Both. He was a senator in the CONgress.
http://www.google.com/search?&q=andrew+ford+handgun
nearly 3k hits.


Which country? It wasn't the US Congress. g

Ed Huntress



  #25   Report Post  
Gary Bosin
 
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" its pretty clear to me.

Gunner
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on,
and walk down the street with no permit of any kind:
some say it's crazy. However, 4 out of 5 US murders
are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" --

Andrew Ford


Maybe only 1/5 of the population live in the 25 states not requiring
permits?
--
Gary B.





  #26   Report Post  
yourname
 
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I live in the people's republic of mass. We have some of the strictest
gun control laws in the country. WE have one of the lowest murder rates
in the country. Dat's a fact. Are they related? conjecture.

18000 murders in 1997[nationwide]
13000 by guns
so I think you can correlate murder rate to gun deaths, roughly
The northeast in 1999 had a murder rate of 4.1 per 100k
the country had 5.7
Mass had a rate of 2.0
states that had a lower murder rate:
New hampshire
Iowa
N Dakota

Idaho was equal

Sorry my numbers are a few years old. I need a new Almanac
People who fear reasonable gun control are mis informed.
I will be the first in line to stop anyone from taking YOUR right to
carry away.
I just want to know who you are





Ed Huntress wrote:

"BottleBob" wrote in message
...


Ed Huntress wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message
...



"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on,
and walk down the street with no permit of any kind:
some say it's crazy. However, 4 out of 5 US murders
are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" --


Andrew Ford

Mr. Ford, if there is such a person, is crazy. 'You want the numbers, or
would you rather keep believing a lie and perpetuating it, in good old
effective Joseph Goebbel's style? g

Oh, what the hell: There are 27 open carry states and they represent


32.95%


of the population. They also are the states in which 31.26% of the


murders


are committed. Those are 2001 figures, US Census and FBI Uniform Crime
Reports. I have the Excel workbooks on it if you don't believe it, and
you're welcome to them.

If there is an Andrew Ford, and if you know who he is, you can tell him


for


me that he's either a fool or a liar, or a little bit of both.


Ed:

So would the Andrew Ford quote be acceptable if it were changed to:

============================================
"27 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on,
^^^^
and walk down the street with no permit of any kind:
some say it's crazy. However, **2 out of 3** US murders
^^^^^^^^^^^
are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" --



It depends on whether you like propaganda or not. If you find that kind of
argument acceptable (and you know why it is or isn't), you, too, may be
accepted for a Joseph Goebbels Scholarship at the university of your choice.
g

However, it would be statistically correct, in the way that propaganda
sometimes uses the truth to tell lies. Ford's original quote is a lie
itself.

Ed Huntress





  #27   Report Post  
Charles Gallo
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Environmentalists may be in deep Kimchee

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:11:26 GMT, Carl Byrns
wrote:

snip
Betcha a bagel he doesn't respond at all- that's his way of dealing
with anything he can't refute.

-Carl


He might not, but I will - 32% of the population, 31% of the murders -
a worst, a statistical wash, and best, a lower murder rate...

Charlie


--
73
KC2IXE

For the Children - RKBA!

Any given program, when running, needs debugging.
Any debugged program is obsolete.
  #28   Report Post  
Tim May
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Environmentalists may be in deep Kimchee

In article , yourname wrote:

I live in the people's republic of mass. We have some of the strictest
gun control laws in the country. WE have one of the lowest murder rates
in the country. Dat's a fact. Are they related? conjecture.


D.C. has the strictest gun laws in the nation, and yet has the highest
murder rate per capita of any city.

--Tim May
  #29   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Environmentalists may be in deep Kimchee

"Charles Gallo" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:11:26 GMT, Carl Byrns
wrote:

snip
Betcha a bagel he doesn't respond at all- that's his way of dealing
with anything he can't refute.

-Carl


He might not, but I will - 32% of the population, 31% of the murders -
a worst, a statistical wash, and best, a lower murder rate...


Exactly. Not at all what "Andrew Ford," whoever he may be, stated and
implied, which is that open-carry laws are somehow connected to much lower
rates of murder.

It's a wash. If you try to make something of that small fraction of a
percent difference, don't bother. The statistics mean nothing at those close
percentages. If California should go open-carry, for example, the stats
would look so horrible for open-carry that no state would ever allow it
again. g

Ed Huntress


  #30   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Environmentalists may be in deep Kimchee

In article , Ed Huntress
says...

I'd tell these guys that I favor a much-easier-to-get CCW and open carry
with it, except that would spoil their preconceptions and they'd stop trying
to fight the facts. That would put a lid on their imaginations in a real
hurry, and it all would become excruciatingly dull. g


Heh. If they can't convince *you* then they'll
never convince the legislators.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================



  #31   Report Post  
Bert
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Environmentalists may be in deep Kimchee

BottleBob wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on,
and walk down the street with no permit of any kind:
some say it's crazy. However, 4 out of 5 US murders
are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" --

Andrew Ford

Oh, what the hell: There are 27 open carry states and they represent 32.95%
of the population. They also are the states in which 31.26% of the murders
are committed. Those are 2001 figures, US Census and FBI Uniform Crime
Reports. I have the Excel workbooks on it if you don't believe it, and
you're welcome to them.


So would the Andrew Ford quote be acceptable if it were changed to:

============================================
"27 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on,
^^^^
and walk down the street with no permit of any kind:
some say it's crazy. However, **2 out of 3** US murders
^^^^^^^^^^^
are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" --
============================================


I don't want to speak for Ed, but the answer to your question depends
on your definition of "acceptable." Your version of the quote might
very well be factually correct. But facts can still be misleading if
they are selectively presented in a way that paints an incomplete and
distorted picture. A more complete picture would be painted if you
said "However, **2 out of 3** of US murders are committed in the other
half of the country, where **2 out of 3** US residents live." Of
course, that doesn't have quite the emotional impact as the original
statement, does it? It's kind of like selling a used car and
emphasizing the fact that it has new tires and a new transmission,
while conveniently omitting the fact that it has a blown head gasket
and needs a new A/C.

Bert
  #32   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Environmentalists may be in deep Kimchee

In article , Ed Huntress
says...

It's a wash.


Apparently so.

Then why do some states go to such *extreme*
lengths to outlaw firearm ownership, handgun
ownership, and concealed carry?

If you talk to the law community they say that
the last thing they want is more citizens
carrying handguns concealed.

And yet, it seems like it really does not matter.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

  #33   Report Post  
John R. Carroll
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Environmentalists may be in deep Kimchee




"yourname" wrote in message
...
I live in the people's republic of mass. We have some of the strictest
gun control laws in the country. WE have one of the lowest murder rates
in the country. Dat's a fact. Are they related? conjecture.

18000 murders in 1997[nationwide]
13000 by guns
so I think you can correlate murder rate to gun deaths, roughly
The northeast in 1999 had a murder rate of 4.1 per 100k
the country had 5.7
Mass had a rate of 2.0
states that had a lower murder rate:
New hampshire
Iowa
N Dakota

Idaho was equal

Sorry my numbers are a few years old. I need a new Almanac
People who fear reasonable gun control are mis informed.
I will be the first in line to stop anyone from taking YOUR right to
carry away.
I just want to know who you are





Ed Huntress wrote:

"BottleBob" wrote in message
...


Ed Huntress wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message
...



"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on,
and walk down the street with no permit of any kind:
some say it's crazy. However, 4 out of 5 US murders
are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" --


Andrew Ford

Mr. Ford, if there is such a person, is crazy. 'You want the numbers,

or
would you rather keep believing a lie and perpetuating it, in good old
effective Joseph Goebbel's style? g

Oh, what the hell: There are 27 open carry states and they represent


32.95%


of the population. They also are the states in which 31.26% of the


murders


are committed. Those are 2001 figures, US Census and FBI Uniform Crime
Reports. I have the Excel workbooks on it if you don't believe it, and
you're welcome to them.

If there is an Andrew Ford, and if you know who he is, you can tell him


for


me that he's either a fool or a liar, or a little bit of both.


Ed:

So would the Andrew Ford quote be acceptable if it were changed to:

============================================
"27 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on,
^^^^
and walk down the street with no permit of any kind:
some say it's crazy. However, **2 out of 3** US murders
^^^^^^^^^^^
are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" --



It depends on whether you like propaganda or not. If you find that kind

of
argument acceptable (and you know why it is or isn't), you, too, may be
accepted for a Joseph Goebbels Scholarship at the university of your

choice.
g

However, it would be statistically correct, in the way that propaganda
sometimes uses the truth to tell lies. Ford's original quote is a lie
itself.

Ed Huntress






FWIW,
The CDC, in what was called an "unusual moment of candor" recently reported
that gun legislation does not have a statistically significant influence on
gun crime in the US. If I can find the article I will post a link to it.

--

John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
Portland
www.machiningsolution.com


  #34   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Environmentalists may be in deep Kimchee

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
news

FWIW,
The CDC, in what was called an "unusual moment of candor" recently

reported
that gun legislation does not have a statistically significant influence

on
gun crime in the US. If I can find the article I will post a link to it.


Well, that would be refreshing to see, John. If you happen upon it, I would
like to see it. But don't go out of your way for it.

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)


  #35   Report Post  
\PrecisionMachinisT\
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Environmentalists may be in deep Kimchee


"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
news

FWIW,
The CDC, in what was called an "unusual moment of candor" recently

reported
that gun legislation does not have a statistically significant influence

on
gun crime in the US. If I can find the article I will post a link to it.


Something anyone with 1/2 a brain or more likely suspected all along.

--

SVL





  #36   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Environmentalists may be in deep Kimchee

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Ed Huntress
says...

It's a wash.


Apparently so.

Then why do some states go to such *extreme*
lengths to outlaw firearm ownership, handgun
ownership, and concealed carry?

If you talk to the law community they say that
the last thing they want is more citizens
carrying handguns concealed.

And yet, it seems like it really does not matter.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================



That's a very good question, Jim. Having fought the battle in Trenton, I
have opinions about it, and the bottom line, IMO, is that the real battle
here is cultural, with the policy and emotional battles tagging along
behind.

And don't discount the strength of the pro-gun cultural battle. The
strongest case for it, IMO, is an article written by a Washington lawyer
named Jeffrey Snyder. The article is titled "A Nation of Cowards." It's all
over the web and it's very worth reading, IMO.

Then read an intelligent response to it by George Will, titled "A Nation of
Cowards?" It, too, is on the web. I'd give you the URLs but I think Gunner
has them set up as keyboard macros, and he'll beat me to it. g

Will's argument is simply that, if Snyder is right, then our society has
already failed. But he acknowledges the strength of Snyder's argument.

Keep in mind those pieces were written in the early '90s, when violent crime
was a more frightening prospect. The principles and the underlying
cultural/value conflict is still valid, however.

As for the opinions of cops, they vary. Plenty of cops support concealed
carry. Others oppose it.

Ed Huntress


  #37   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Environmentalists may be in deep Kimchee

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 10:23:56 -0800, "Gary Bosin"
wrote:



" its pretty clear to me.

Gunner
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on,
and walk down the street with no permit of any kind:
some say it's crazy. However, 4 out of 5 US murders
are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" --

Andrew Ford


Maybe only 1/5 of the population live in the 25 states not requiring
permits?


Which invalidated the quote how?
G
That by the way..is called using AntiGun or Liberal tactics.

But seriously......


.....open carry is far different than CCW. California, in theory, does
have open carry. You cant be arrested for it. They will however arrest
you for creating a disturbance, brandishing, high mopery in a low
mopery zone, etc. Once you get out of a city, open carry is quite
legal, except on some parklands.

There is only one state that has no restrictions for carrying openly
or concealed without state papers.
Vermont
Now there is a real hotbed of crime and mayhem, hey?


A good source for CCW state information is www.packing.org
As several others have indicated..the cites and states with the most
restrictive gun laws are indeed the ones on whole with the highest
murder and gun crime rates.

There are only 7 states in the US that do not issue CCW permits
(carrying a concealed weapon). Of those 43 states, I believe the
number of Shall Issue states are now up to 38 or so. Even in those 7
states, some form of open carry is legal.


Shall Issue, means that if you go to apply for a permit to carry a
concealed weapon, and you are not a felon, ever been ajudicated
mentaly ill, etc etc..the powers that be HAVE to give you that permit.
Its not dependant on how much you kicked into the local campaign
coffers, how anti gun the local government is, etc etc. They HAVE to
issue, or show damned good cause as to why they refused. And each have
set up an appeals process for refusals.

California is a May issue state. A number of counties are virtually
Shall issue, while others, such as L.A county will not issue period,
or only if you are a significant campaign contributor to the Sheriffs
etc election fund.

Then you have Vermont, which has no prohibitions against carrying a
concealed weapon.

Here is a map of the current states and how they are rated on CCW

http://www.moccw.org/map.html

BTW..this map is GREATLY different from 15 yrs ago.

Here is an animated map of the changes since 1986

http://www.gun-nuttery.com/rtc.php

Ohio is currently a very interesting state to study. A large
bipartisan grassroots effort to make Ohio a Shall Issue state passed
all the hurdles and hoops, and was presented to the Governor to sign,
whom has refused to do so, repeatedly. The Ohio Supreme court was
presented with the case, and it found that CCW is not a right in the
Ohio constitution, but that carrying a weapon openly at any time, is
indeed legal. In Arizona for example, its quite legal to simply strap
on a handgun and go about your business in public, and for those who
have been there..its very common. I do it all the time when in
Arizona. I think the most number of armed citizens I saw at one time
was 9 people (several women) at the checkout line at an AM-PM, all
just hard working citizens from different walks of life. The only
comment Ive ever heard was along the lines of "how do you like the
such and such holster?".


So now in Ohio, we have a case of huge numbers of people
saying..ok..if its legal, Im gonna carry..and its driving the anti gun
extremists in Ohio, absolutly bonkers. The pro activists are staging
very large "defense walks" where they all get together, and openly
carrying, do a civil rights type demonstraton parade. Gov. Taft is
gonna have to fish or cut bait really soon, else his days in political
office are numbered.


Another interesting aspect is Reciprocity of concealed weapons
permits. Lets say a snowbird from Michigan, with a valid permit to
carry concealed, is traveling. Is his permit recognized in other
states? Some yes, some not. Here is a pretty current listing, with
more states reaching agreements monthly.

http://gunownersca.com/GOCRecip.htm

I live in California, which like Ed's Joisey..recognizes no one elses
CCW. This of course is greatly dependant on which cop inquires and
why. I see many of them simply looking the other way, if a lawful CCW
holder from another state is passing through. However..my California
CCW permit is recognized by at least 10 other states minimum. Then
there is Arizona, which issues Non Resident CCW permits, largely
because of the Retiree or snow bird population

As to the Ford quote, Ill have to check the current Crime index and
take a look. But as others have pointed out, if the 25 states with
open carry laws, only commit 1/3 the crimes..looks like a pretty good
record to me.
You anti-gun nuts would have us to believe that the mear carrying of a
weapon leads to disaster and mayhem..and it appears that the stats
prove you wrong, no matter how much you spin them.

I recall the bruha that was raised by the Antis when Florida went to
Shall issue. Blood in the streets, Wild West blablablah.

Seems that once again..they were wrong. Shrug..and that animated map
above, proves that once again, common sense is overcoming the Anti-gun
nutballs best efforts.


Gunner

"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on,
and walk down the street with no permit of any kind:
some say it's crazy. However, 4 out of 5 US murders
are committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?" -- Andrew Ford
  #38   Report Post  
John R. Carroll
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Environmentalists may be in deep Kimchee


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
news

FWIW,
The CDC, in what was called an "unusual moment of candor" recently

reported
that gun legislation does not have a statistically significant influence

on
gun crime in the US. If I can find the article I will post a link to it.


Well, that would be refreshing to see, John. If you happen upon it, I

would
like to see it. But don't go out of your way for it.

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)


Well Ed,
That's the problem with computers. You need to keep yourself organized or
you just can't be productive.
Now where was I?


--

John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
Portland
www.machiningsolution.com


  #39   Report Post  
John R. Carroll
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Environmentalists may be in deep Kimchee


"Tom Quackenbush" wrote in message
news
Ed Huntress wrote:

John R. Carroll wrote in message
news

FWIW,
The CDC, in what was called an "unusual moment of candor" recently

reported
that gun legislation does not have a statistically significant

influence
on
gun crime in the US. If I can find the article I will post a link to

it.

Well, that would be refreshing to see, John. If you happen upon it, I

would
like to see it. But don't go out of your way for it.


I think John was referring to "First Reports Evaluating the
Effectiveness of Strategies for Preventing Violence: Firearms Laws
Findings from the Task Force on Community Preventive Services".

From: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm :

Summary

During 2000--2002, the Task Force on Community Preventive Services
(the Task Force), an independent nonfederal task force, conducted a
systematic review of scientific evidence regarding the effectiveness
of firearms laws in preventing violence, including violent crimes,
suicide, and unintentional injury. The following laws were evaluated:
bans on specified firearms or ammunition, restrictions on firearm
acquisition, waiting periods for firearm acquisition, firearm
registration and licensing of firearm owners, "shall issue" concealed
weapon carry laws, child access prevention laws, zero tolerance laws
for firearms in schools, and combinations of firearms laws. The Task
Force found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of
any of the firearms laws or combinations of laws reviewed on violent
outcomes. (Note that insufficient evidence to determine effectiveness
should not be interpreted as evidence of ineffectiveness.) This report
briefly describes how the reviews were conducted, summarizes the Task
Force findings, and provides information regarding needs for future
research.

R,
Tom Q.


Tom,
That is the report but I was referring to and trying to find the piece I
first saw. It included additional material and cites related to enforcement.

The gist of the thing was that legislation is a poor substitute for good
judgment.

I agree. Pile on all of the laws you want but if they go unheeded and
unenforced these laws are worse than useless. They offer a false sense of
accomplishment and security. Good politics makes bad legislation. Now I
really must dig the thing out!


--

John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
Portland
www.machiningsolution.com


  #40   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT Environmentalists may be in deep Kimchee

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:40:12 GMT, yourname wrote:


Sorry my numbers are a few years old. I need a new Almanac
People who fear reasonable gun control are mis informed.


Define Reasonable gun control.
I will be the first in line to stop anyone from taking YOUR right to
carry away.
I just want to know who you are


Its really none of your business.

Gunner

"[T]he Clinton administration launched an attack on people in Texas
because those people were religious nuts with guns.
Hell, this country was founded by religious nuts with guns.\
Who does Bill Clinton think stepped ashore on Plymouth Rock?
Peace Corps volunteers? Or maybe the people in Texas were attacked
because of child abuse. But, if child abuse was the issue,
why didn't Janet Reno tear-gas Woody Allen?
-- P.J. O'Rourke, speech at the Cato Institute, May 6, 1993
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