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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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chemistry question
I've just cleaned a bunch of pieces of new black pipe by soaking them
in a hot TSP solution. They don't feel oily, and the lettering is gone, but they are still vaguely black in color. I have read many times that giving steel items a light etch in phosphoric acid will leave a thin plating of iron phosphate which is a good strike coat for painting. Since there are phosphate ions aplenty in TSP, might I have just gotten the desirable iron phosphate coating without having to find a bunch of phosphoric acid? Second question: unfortunately, these parts aren't going to be painted, they're going to be galvanized. The galvanizing shop is real leery of items fabricated from black pipe because of the coating they get - that's the reason for the TSP dip in the first place. I'm considering a light etch in some dilute HCl (muriatic i.e. hydrochloric acid) which should completely remove any doubt on the galvanizing shop's mind. Question: can I neutralize HCl with TSP? I know that TSP in solution is basic. I'm just wondering what happens when you mix TSP with HCl - obviously, you'd get Na+ ions, H+ ions, PO3-- ions, and Cl- ions. Sort of like a mix of phosphoric and hydrochloric acids, except for the sodium. I can't figure it out, my college chem days are long over. Final question: assuming #2 does NOT work, and further assuming it's bad news to dump TSP into the sewer, is there any easy cheap way to neutralize the TSP and make it less environmentally harmful? My neighbor, no dummy, suggests using it as fertilizer. Does that make any sense? Grant Erwin Kirkland, Washington |
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chemistry question
Grant Erwin wrote: snip Final question: assuming #2 does NOT work, and further assuming it's bad news to dump TSP into the sewer, is there any easy cheap way to neutralize the TSP and make it less environmentally harmful? My neighbor, no dummy, suggests using it as fertilizer. Does that make any sense? Grant Erwin Kirkland, Washington Hi Grant, I can't answer the first part of your post, far too long since I had chemistry classes as well. TSP alone is just fine as a fertilizer. It's the same stuff that used to be in laundry detergents. It was banned in that application because of the algae blooms it caused once the treated waste hit the rivers and lakes. Remeber "Phosphate Free" stickers? It's just the "P" of the KNP rating for fertilizer. The only concern is what else is in the solution. I cook down the TSP solution used for stripping old tools (likely lead based paint) and put the sludge in a sealed can with kitty litter. It can then be turned in at the local landfill just like old lead based paints, in the hazardous waste disposal area for home owners. If the solution has a fair bit of oil in it you may want to do the same thing, sort of hard to grow grass over an oil spill :-( Cheers, Stan |
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chemistry question
"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
... Final question: assuming #2 does NOT work, and further assuming it's bad news to dump TSP into the sewer, is there any easy cheap way to neutralize the TSP and make it less environmentally harmful? My neighbor, no dummy, suggests using it as fertilizer. Does that make any sense? Disclaimer: I am a chemistry ignoramus. That being said, the reason they took TSP out of laundry detergent is that the phosphate is a fertilizer that caused some spectacular algae blooms in wastewater treatment plants. The little bit you're going to add won't do squat. I toss a couple of tablespoons of the stuff into the washer, along with the regular detergent, to wash my son's filthy sports uniforms. Now, if I could only get back the enzymes that were in there until around 1970 or whatever, we could be as clean as we were in 1968! g Ed Huntress |
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chemistry question
"lane" lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote in message
... Ed I know some of the dishwasher soap has enzymes in it, my wife swears by it. Wonder how it would work on clothes. Lane It's very caustic. However, you should see it get the sweat and grime out of my baseball caps. Normally, I can hardly touch them with boiling lye. g Suggestion for marital harmony: don't put your baseball caps in the dishwasher while your wife if looking. -- Ed Huntress (remove "3" from email address for email reply) |
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chemistry question
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
t... "Grant Erwin" wrote in message ... Final question: assuming #2 does NOT work, and further assuming it's bad news to dump TSP into the sewer, is there any easy cheap way to neutralize the TSP and make it less environmentally harmful? My neighbor, no dummy, suggests using it as fertilizer. Does that make any sense? Disclaimer: I am a chemistry ignoramus. That being said, the reason they took TSP out of laundry detergent is that the phosphate is a fertilizer that caused some spectacular algae blooms in wastewater treatment plants. The little bit you're going to add won't do squat. I toss a couple of tablespoons of the stuff into the washer, along with the regular detergent, to wash my son's filthy sports uniforms. Now, if I could only get back the enzymes that were in there until around 1970 or whatever, we could be as clean as we were in 1968! g Ed Huntress Ed I know some of the dishwasher soap has enzymes in it, my wife swears by it. Wonder how it would work on clothes. Lane |
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chemistry question
"Grant Erwin" wrote in message ... I've just cleaned a bunch of pieces of new black pipe by soaking them in a hot TSP solution. They don't feel oily, and the lettering is gone, but they are still vaguely black in color. I have read many times that giving steel items a light etch in phosphoric acid will leave a thin plating of iron phosphate which is a good strike coat for painting. Since there are phosphate ions aplenty in TSP, might I have just gotten the desirable iron phosphate coating without having to find a bunch of phosphoric acid? Second question: unfortunately, these parts aren't going to be painted, they're going to be galvanized. The galvanizing shop is real leery of items fabricated from black pipe because of the coating they get - that's the reason for the TSP dip in the first place. I'm considering a light etch in some dilute HCl (muriatic i.e. hydrochloric acid) which should completely remove any doubt on the galvanizing shop's mind. Question: can I neutralize HCl with TSP? I know that TSP in solution is basic. I'm just wondering what happens when you mix TSP with HCl - obviously, you'd get Na+ ions, H+ ions, PO3-- ions, and Cl- ions. Sort of like a mix of phosphoric and hydrochloric acids, except for the sodium. I can't figure it out, my college chem days are long over. Final question: assuming #2 does NOT work, and further assuming it's bad news to dump TSP into the sewer, is there any easy cheap way to neutralize the TSP and make it less environmentally harmful? My neighbor, no dummy, suggests using it as fertilizer. Does that make any sense? Grant Erwin Kirkland, Washington I"m no chemistry wizard, but my years of precious metal refining taught me a few things about hydrochloric acid and metals. I think I'd use a dilute solution of hydrochloric to clean the steel parts you want to galvanize, then neutralize the parts with sodium hydroxide (lye). That will prevent the instantaneous rusting you would otherwise get. I used to run a small ball mill. So long as I kept the interior basic (9 pH or higher), there was no rusting. If I'm not mistaken, when you take parts to be galvanized, they are subjected to an acid wash prior to receiving the zinc dip. Harold |
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chemistry question
In article , Ed Huntress says...
Suggestion for marital harmony: don't put your baseball caps in the dishwasher while your wife is looking. And if you put motorbike transmissions in the oven, be sure to use those Reynolds "roast-in" bags to keep the 90 wt fumes from escaping. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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chemistry question
In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...
I"m no chemistry wizard, but my years of precious metal refining taught me a few things about hydrochloric acid and metals. I think I'd use a dilute solution of hydrochloric to clean the steel parts you want to galvanize, then neutralize the parts with sodium hydroxide (lye). That will prevent the instantaneous rusting you would otherwise get. I used to run a small ball mill. So long as I kept the interior basic (9 pH or higher), there was no rusting. I think this is pretty good advice. The base will neutralize any acidity. The TSP is not really a base, IIRC it's like most detergents, being a large molecule that is polar at one end, and non-polar at the other end. So the polar end grabs onto the water, and the non-polar end grabs the oil or grease. I also suspect that simply rinsing the parts well, and using a mild base like baking soda will be enough, so he would not have to deal with caustic NaOH solutions. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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chemistry question
"jim rozen" wrote in message ... In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says... I also suspect that simply rinsing the parts well, and using a mild base like baking soda will be enough, so he would not have to deal with caustic NaOH solutions. Jim I'm afraid I'd have to strongly agree, Jim. One of the negative experiences I had when refining was to get a drop of nitric acid directly in one eye. Immediately the surface of my eye peeled off. I had done something EXTREMELY stupid in that I had gone from the machine shop, where I always wore safety glasses, to the lab, where I removed them (??) while I tended to a large beaker of silver, to which I added some acid. One drop, and only one drop, popped out of the beaker, right into my left eye. When an ophthalmologist looked at my eye, he told me how "lucky" I was. I was told that the human body can quickly neutralize acid, which prevented the acid from doing permanent injury to my eye. On the other hand, he said that had the drop been lye instead, I would have been blinded because the lye continues to destroy tissue. We can't neutralize base solutions nearly as well. I endorse the baking soda, and would encourage anyone facing this situation to use it in place of lye. Oh, yeah. Just as I was promised, the eye healed up with no lasting effects, although I've often wondered if that's the reason my arms are too short now. :-) Harold |
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chemistry question
In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...
One of the negative experiences I had when refining was to get a drop of nitric acid directly in one eye. Immediately the surface of my eye peeled off. AAAAAAghhhh!!! I'm sure glad I already ate. This story is was only *slightly* less less horrifying than Roy's fire extinguisher tale. Because I see folks work with chemicals all the time at work, and see how they do so under fume hoods, and with goggles and whatnot all the time, I tend to have about one reaction when I hear about things like this, to pass out on the floor. I had done something EXTREMELY stupid in that I had gone from the machine shop, where I always wore safety glasses, to the lab, where I removed them (??) while I tended to a large beaker of silver, to which I added some acid. One drop, and only one drop, popped out of the beaker, right into my left eye. Yep, a lot of this stuff is pure habit. I see the researchers do stuff with machinery, using no eye protection at all - and they're the same folks who won't work under a hood unless the sash is pulled most of the way down, and they've got eye protection on all the time. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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chemistry question
I am a chemist so I will try to clear up a few comments here. (Though I
know little about treating metal for galvanizing.) First TSP is not a soap with a polar end and a non-polar end. It is just tri-sodium phosphate, Na3PO4. This is the basic form of phosphoric acid, H3PO4. So TSP is a base and can consume three equivalents of HCL, which would produce H3PO4 and 3NaCl. This resulting solution would be quite acidic. The key to neutralizing the HCl would be to use excess TSP so the solution always remains somewhat basic. Sodium hydroxide, NaOH, will do the same thing, but it is more basic and dangerous than the TSP. In any case expect the solution to give off heat as you neutralize the acid. So add the acid slowly to the base, while stirring the basic solution. This should minimize any heat build-up. Good-luck, John In article , jim rozen wrote: In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says... I"m no chemistry wizard, but my years of precious metal refining taught me a few things about hydrochloric acid and metals. I think I'd use a dilute solution of hydrochloric to clean the steel parts you want to galvanize, then neutralize the parts with sodium hydroxide (lye). That will prevent the instantaneous rusting you would otherwise get. I used to run a small ball mill. So long as I kept the interior basic (9 pH or higher), there was no rusting. I think this is pretty good advice. The base will neutralize any acidity. The TSP is not really a base, IIRC it's like most detergents, being a large molecule that is polar at one end, and non-polar at the other end. So the polar end grabs onto the water, and the non-polar end grabs the oil or grease. I also suspect that simply rinsing the parts well, and using a mild base like baking soda will be enough, so he would not have to deal with caustic NaOH solutions. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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chemistry question
"Me Mine" wrote in message
... I am a chemist so I will try to clear up a few comments here. (Though I know little about treating metal for galvanizing.) YO, John!.... This is a little like asking a doctor for medical advice over lunch, but... When we use HCL to clean rusted steel, or to strip the galvanizing off of electrical steel tubing, how should we neutralize it to prevent further (accelerated) rusting? We've heard that dipping it in a lye solution will leave NaCl in the pores of the cleaned metal and will lead to further rusting, but we (I) wouldn't know the facts if our (my) life depended on it. What's the story? Thanks, doc... Ed Huntress |
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chemistry question
In article , Me Mine says...
I am a chemist so I will try to clear up a few comments here. (Though I know little about treating metal for galvanizing.) First TSP is not a soap with a polar end and a non-polar end. Well that clears that up. I guess as a crank turner I'm not that good a chemist! Sorry for the confusion, guess I should have payed more attention in class way back when. My last chemistry class was in 1977. But I suppose TSP was the same then as it is now... Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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chemistry question
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:33:47 -0800, Grant Erwin wrote:
Question: can I neutralize HCl with TSP? I know that TSP in solution is basic. I'm just wondering what happens when you mix TSP with HCl - obviously, you'd get Na+ ions, H+ ions, PO3-- ions, and Cl- ions. Sort of like a mix of phosphoric and hydrochloric acids, except for the sodium. I can't figure it out, my college chem days are long over. What you get is salt, NaCl. This salt residue will hide in every pore, crack, and crevice of the part, promoting corrosion. You get the same thing if you try to neutralize with lye or baking soda. So do *not* try to neutralize the HCl. Just rinse the part off with plenty of hot water (chlorides are soluble in hot water). The hotter the water, the better, because solubility increases with temperature, and the hot water will evaporate off the part faster, so the part doesn't stay wet long. Note that the metal will be *extremely* clean at this point, and will flash rust if you don't immediately oil it or otherwise protect it from contact with oxygen. That's why the galvanizing guys normally do the HCl dip and rinse immediately before galvanizing. Note too that you don't have to worry about the rinse water going down the drain. You need to use lots of it, and it will dilute any HCl it washes off the part to harmless levels. Final question: assuming #2 does NOT work, and further assuming it's bad news to dump TSP into the sewer, is there any easy cheap way to neutralize the TSP and make it less environmentally harmful? My neighbor, no dummy, suggests using it as fertilizer. Does that make any sense? Sure, it *is* fertilizer. If you only have a few gallons of the stuff, dumping it down the sewer isn't a problem either. The environmental concern was when *everyone* was doing it (laundry detergents with TSP), and the result was algae blooms downstream of the sewage treatment plant. But a few gallons is nothing. For *these* chemicals, dilution is the solution to pollution. That's not true for some chemicals, or industrial quantities of most chemicals, but it is fine for disposing of the small amounts of acids and bases used around the home shop. Gary |
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chemistry question
Grant and Ed,
You might want to check the label on the box to see just what you have. TSP is not easily procured in New York State. Yes it says TSP on the box, but the fine print where it lists the ingrediants says Sodium Carbonate. Sodium Carbonate is cheaper when bought as Sodium Carbonate. Here in Washington State, the fine print says contains TSP and Sodium Carbonate. At least that was what the box at Lowes said. I have not checked at Home Depot and ACE. Dan |
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chemistry question
"Dan Caster" wrote in message
m... Grant and Ed, You might want to check the label on the box to see just what you have. TSP is not easily procured in New York State. Yes it says TSP on the box, but the fine print where it lists the ingrediants says Sodium Carbonate. Sodium Carbonate is cheaper when bought as Sodium Carbonate. We have both products here in NJ, Dan. The stuff I have is straight TSP. Ed Huntress |
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chemistry question
Gary has hit the galvanized nail on the head. Any standard
neutralization of HCl will produce NaCl. Consequently, Gary's is right when advising thorough rinsing. I believe the culprit to accelerated rusting is the chloride ion. The only way to avoid this is to use a different acid, i.e. sulfuric acid, H2SO4. I don't know if this is good for cleaning steel or if it would cause problems with the ensuing galvanization. John In article , Gary Coffman wrote: On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:33:47 -0800, Grant Erwin wrote: Question: can I neutralize HCl with TSP? I know that TSP in solution is basic. I'm just wondering what happens when you mix TSP with HCl - obviously, you'd get Na+ ions, H+ ions, PO3-- ions, and Cl- ions. Sort of like a mix of phosphoric and hydrochloric acids, except for the sodium. I can't figure it out, my college chem days are long over. What you get is salt, NaCl. This salt residue will hide in every pore, crack, and crevice of the part, promoting corrosion. You get the same thing if you try to neutralize with lye or baking soda. So do *not* try to neutralize the HCl. Just rinse the part off with plenty of hot water (chlorides are soluble in hot water). The hotter the water, the better, because solubility increases with temperature, and the hot water will evaporate off the part faster, so the part doesn't stay wet long. Note that the metal will be *extremely* clean at this point, and will flash rust if you don't immediately oil it or otherwise protect it from contact with oxygen. That's why the galvanizing guys normally do the HCl dip and rinse immediately before galvanizing. Note too that you don't have to worry about the rinse water going down the drain. You need to use lots of it, and it will dilute any HCl it washes off the part to harmless levels. Final question: assuming #2 does NOT work, and further assuming it's bad news to dump TSP into the sewer, is there any easy cheap way to neutralize the TSP and make it less environmentally harmful? My neighbor, no dummy, suggests using it as fertilizer. Does that make any sense? Sure, it *is* fertilizer. If you only have a few gallons of the stuff, dumping it down the sewer isn't a problem either. The environmental concern was when *everyone* was doing it (laundry detergents with TSP), and the result was algae blooms downstream of the sewage treatment plant. But a few gallons is nothing. For *these* chemicals, dilution is the solution to pollution. That's not true for some chemicals, or industrial quantities of most chemicals, but it is fine for disposing of the small amounts of acids and bases used around the home shop. Gary |
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chemistry question
In article , Ed Huntress says...
We have both products here in NJ, Dan. Yes, but the downside on this is, you also have Secuacus! :^) Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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chemistry question
"jim rozen" wrote in message
... In article , Ed Huntress says... We have both products here in NJ, Dan. Yes, but the downside on this is, you also have Secuacus! :^) But one never has to go there, nor to West New York, nor even to Perth Amboy. d8-) As for dangerous chemicals, they're like Black-eyed Susans are in some other parts of the country. You can just gather them by the side of the road. Ed Huntress |
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chemistry question
In article , Ed Huntress says...
But one never has to go there, nor to West New York, nor even to Perth Amboy. d8-) I remember there was a lady who was running a operation in Perth Amboy, she had a contract to barge sewage sludge out beyond the limit. They caught her crew pumping the sludge onboard the barges, and at the same time pumping it overboard right at the dock! She was famous. As for dangerous chemicals, they're like Black-eyed Susans are in some other parts of the country. You can just gather them by the side of the road. LOL. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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chemistry question
Now you folks have me confused. We do metal conveyors for the potato
industry. In days gone by, potatoes were peeled by soaking them in a very strong solution of caustic lye. This would dissolve the skins onto a slimy mess that could be washed off, leaving an effectively peeled spud (similar was done on peaches also). The practice has mostly been replaced by steam peelers due to waste disposal problems. The point is, the carbon steel conveyors and frames of these systems lasted FOREVER. Even when steam cleaned, neutralized, etc, they never rusted. The caustic acts as a protectant of some sort and prevents corrosion rathern than causing corrosion as stated (on mild steel). The slimyness of the lye acted as a lubricant also so the wear was reduced. A conveyor just upstream, or just downstream (after the wash) might last a year but the conveyors in the lye...I never even remember replacing one. Most plants still have these machines for back-up...just washed and sitting. No rust still. So what's the real story here? The statements seem to be conflicting with real-world experience. Koz Me Mine wrote: Gary has hit the galvanized nail on the head. Any standard neutralization of HCl will produce NaCl. Consequently, Gary's is right when advising thorough rinsing. I believe the culprit to accelerated rusting is the chloride ion. The only way to avoid this is to use a different acid, i.e. sulfuric acid, H2SO4. I don't know if this is good for cleaning steel or if it would cause problems with the ensuing galvanization. John In article , Gary Coffman wrote: On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:33:47 -0800, Grant Erwin wrote: Question: can I neutralize HCl with TSP? I know that TSP in solution is basic. I'm just wondering what happens when you mix TSP with HCl - obviously, you'd get Na+ ions, H+ ions, PO3-- ions, and Cl- ions. Sort of like a mix of phosphoric and hydrochloric acids, except for the sodium. I can't figure it out, my college chem days are long over. What you get is salt, NaCl. This salt residue will hide in every pore, crack, and crevice of the part, promoting corrosion. You get the same thing if you try to neutralize with lye or baking soda. So do *not* try to neutralize the HCl. Just rinse the part off with plenty of hot water (chlorides are soluble in hot water). The hotter the water, the better, because solubility increases with temperature, and the hot water will evaporate off the part faster, so the part doesn't stay wet long. Note that the metal will be *extremely* clean at this point, and will flash rust if you don't immediately oil it or otherwise protect it from contact with oxygen. That's why the galvanizing guys normally do the HCl dip and rinse immediately before galvanizing. Note too that you don't have to worry about the rinse water going down the drain. You need to use lots of it, and it will dilute any HCl it washes off the part to harmless levels. Final question: assuming #2 does NOT work, and further assuming it's bad news to dump TSP into the sewer, is there any easy cheap way to neutralize the TSP and make it less environmentally harmful? My neighbor, no dummy, suggests using it as fertilizer. Does that make any sense? Sure, it *is* fertilizer. If you only have a few gallons of the stuff, dumping it down the sewer isn't a problem either. The environmental concern was when *everyone* was doing it (laundry detergents with TSP), and the result was algae blooms downstream of the sewage treatment plant. But a few gallons is nothing. For *these* chemicals, dilution is the solution to pollution. That's not true for some chemicals, or industrial quantities of most chemicals, but it is fine for disposing of the small amounts of acids and bases used around the home shop. Gary |
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chemistry question
Koz wrote:
... The caustic acts as a protectant of some sort and prevents corrosion rathern than causing corrosion as stated (on mild steel). ... Actually, what was stated was that using a sodium caustic to neutralize hydrochloric acid would leave salt which would lead to corrosion. Also, just using HCl and rinsing it will leave a surface so clean that rust will begin immediately. Bob |
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chemistry question
Dan Caster wrote: Grant and Ed, You might want to check the label on the box to see just what you have. TSP is not easily procured in New York State. Yes it says TSP on the box, but the fine print where it lists the ingrediants says Sodium Carbonate. Sodium Carbonate is cheaper when bought as Sodium Carbonate. Here in Washington State, the fine print says contains TSP and Sodium Carbonate. At least that was what the box at Lowes said. I have not checked at Home Depot and ACE. Dan I have difficulty believing anything else is in a box labeled as Trisodium Phosphate! If it does, then it violates laws related to labeling products. I have two boxes, one old one fairly new that are labeled TSP and both do not mention any other compound, nor would I expect them too. Now if you have a product that is labeled as a cleaner, or a cleaner with TSP, who knows what would be in it. Recheck the label on the box. If it is labeled as TSP, it better be TSP. Anyway sodium carbonate is known commonly as washing soda. There is no more relationship between sodium carbonate and trisodium phosphate than there is between TSP and sodium chloride. |
#24
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chemistry question
On 31 Oct 2003 17:15:12 -0800, jim rozen
wrote something .......and in reply I say!: That swampy smell sure do get around! BTDT! And now I am _GLAD_ I use REYNOLDS. See! The cooking people CARE more than the tansmission people! And if you put motorbike transmissions in the oven, be sure to use those Reynolds "roast-in" bags to keep the 90 wt fumes from escaping. Jim ================================================= = please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================= = ************************************************** **************************************** Until I do the other one,this one means nothing Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music remove ns from my header address to reply via email !! ") _/ ) ( ) _//- \__/ |
#25
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chemistry question
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:17:45 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote something .......and in reply I say!: I"m no chemistry wizard, but my years of precious metal refining taught me a few things about hydrochloric acid and metals. I think I'd use a dilute solution of hydrochloric to clean the steel parts you want to galvanize, then neutralize the parts with sodium hydroxide (lye). Producing a salt solution on the metal = rust???? ************************************************** **************************************** Until I do the other one,this one means nothing Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music remove ns from my header address to reply via email !! ") _/ ) ( ) _//- \__/ |
#26
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chemistry question
It's really easy to buy fake TSP in Washington too, but if you look
carefully you can get TSP. Which I always do. - GWE George E. Cawthon wrote: Dan Caster wrote: Grant and Ed, You might want to check the label on the box to see just what you have. TSP is not easily procured in New York State. Yes it says TSP on the box, but the fine print where it lists the ingrediants says Sodium Carbonate. Sodium Carbonate is cheaper when bought as Sodium Carbonate. Here in Washington State, the fine print says contains TSP and Sodium Carbonate. At least that was what the box at Lowes said. I have not checked at Home Depot and ACE. Dan I have difficulty believing anything else is in a box labeled as Trisodium Phosphate! If it does, then it violates laws related to labeling products. I have two boxes, one old one fairly new that are labeled TSP and both do not mention any other compound, nor would I expect them too. Now if you have a product that is labeled as a cleaner, or a cleaner with TSP, who knows what would be in it. Recheck the label on the box. If it is labeled as TSP, it better be TSP. Anyway sodium carbonate is known commonly as washing soda. There is no more relationship between sodium carbonate and trisodium phosphate than there is between TSP and sodium chloride. |
#27
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chemistry question
"Old Nick" wrote in message ... On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:17:45 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote something ......and in reply I say!: I"m no chemistry wizard, but my years of precious metal refining taught me a few things about hydrochloric acid and metals. I think I'd use a dilute solution of hydrochloric to clean the steel parts you want to galvanize, then neutralize the parts with sodium hydroxide (lye). Producing a salt solution on the metal = rust???? I keep hearing that same response, but how much salt would be in question? One would have rinsed the parts in clear water, then in a solution of sodium hydroxide. When the items in question are introduced to the lye solution the amount of HCL remaining on the parts should be down to next to nothing, and would most likely already have been neutralized by the iron itself. If you've not put any steel in HCL, perhaps you should do so to understand the speed at which it reacts, especially if heated. Please read the post by Koz, which is in keeping with my personal experiences as well. I have no argument with the theory of salt being a by-product, but one might consider the reality of the situation at hand. In this instance, the part(s) would be protected by the residual lye. It would be highly unlikely that any salt would have been formed. Harold |
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chemistry question
Grant where have you found the real TSP?
Dan Grant Erwin wrote in message It's really easy to buy fake TSP in Washington too, but if you look carefully you can get TSP. Which I always do. - GWE |
#29
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chemistry question
Home Depot. In the paint department. - GWE
Dan Caster wrote: Grant where have you found the real TSP? Dan Grant Erwin wrote in message It's really easy to buy fake TSP in Washington too, but if you look carefully you can get TSP. Which I always do. - GWE |
#30
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chemistry question
On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 11:29:23 -0800, Koz wrote:
The caustic acts as a protectant of some sort and prevents corrosion rathern than causing corrosion as stated (on mild steel). What we said was that using caustic soda, or baking soda, or any other alkali metal base to *neutralize* HCl remaining on the steel from an acid dip produces a salt (in this case NaCl, table salt). Unless the water is very hot, some of that salt residue will settle in any pores, cracks, threads, or other feature of the part. *That* will promote corrosion of the steel. Obviously, if there is no HCl present, for example your potato conveyor, adding caustic to the water does not produce salt, and thus doesn't leave a residue on the steel which promotes corrosion. In combination with the starch in the potatos, caustic *should* produce a carbonate scale on the metal which will in fact offer some protection from rusting. But scale is what the original poster is trying to remove, he wants bright metal ready for galvanizing. So caustic is not advised. Gary |
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chemistry question
Doesn't the plating shop have a reverse current bath they use for cleaning
parts just before the plating bath? John |
#32
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chemistry question
I suspect the plating process won't worry if the part is wet with
a little HCL on it - I suspect there is HCL in the plating and if not, the zinc will become zinc chloride in short time. And then the Hydrogen bubbles off in gas form. Martin -- Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn @ home at Lion's Lair with our computer NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder |
#33
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chemistry question
Dang...long day and the HCL thing didn't sink in. Spud plants usually
neutralize with sulphuric or similar during clean-up. BTW, no starch build-up to be seen on these units. Funny to see em brand new and painted by the fabricator...paint lasts about 15 minutes Koz Gary Coffman wrote: On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 11:29:23 -0800, Koz wrote: The caustic acts as a protectant of some sort and prevents corrosion rathern than causing corrosion as stated (on mild steel). What we said was that using caustic soda, or baking soda, or any other alkali metal base to *neutralize* HCl remaining on the steel from an acid dip produces a salt (in this case NaCl, table salt). Unless the water is very hot, some of that salt residue will settle in any pores, cracks, threads, or other feature of the part. *That* will promote corrosion of the steel. Obviously, if there is no HCl present, for example your potato conveyor, adding caustic to the water does not produce salt, and thus doesn't leave a residue on the steel which promotes corrosion. In combination with the starch in the potatos, caustic *should* produce a carbonate scale on the metal which will in fact offer some protection from rusting. But scale is what the original poster is trying to remove, he wants bright metal ready for galvanizing. So caustic is not advised. Gary |
#34
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chemistry question
On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 07:32:26 GMT, Eastburn wrote:
I suspect the plating process won't worry if the part is wet with a little HCL on it - I suspect dipping anything wet into molten zinc would get a bit exciting. We are talking about parts that will be hot dip galvanized, not plated. Gary |
#35
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chemistry question
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:
... If you've not put any steel in HCL, perhaps you should do so ... ... my personal experiences as well. ... consider the reality of the situation at hand. ... It would be highly unlikely that any salt would have been formed. My PERSONAL EXPERIENCE is this: I found a charge-driving nail gun at the dump. Nice, but badly rusted. I took it all apart and put it in HCl. I then neutralized with lye (or maybe TSP). I rinsed really well, oiled it, and reassembled. I couple of days later I noticed quite a bit of rust. "Dang!", I thought, "I guess that I didn't neutralize well enough." I repeated the entire process and was _really_ careful about neutralizing. It rusted again, badly. Bob |
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chemistry question
"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message ... Harold & Susan Vordos wrote: ... If you've not put any steel in HCL, perhaps you should do so ... ... my personal experiences as well. ... consider the reality of the situation at hand. ... It would be highly unlikely that any salt would have been formed. My PERSONAL EXPERIENCE is this: I found a charge-driving nail gun at the dump. Nice, but badly rusted. I took it all apart and put it in HCl. I then neutralized with lye (or maybe TSP). I rinsed really well, oiled it, and reassembled. I couple of days later I noticed quite a bit of rust. "Dang!", I thought, "I guess that I didn't neutralize well enough." I repeated the entire process and was _really_ careful about neutralizing. It rusted again, badly. Bob Hard to argue with that, Bob. I know from experience that HCL cleaned steel is quick to rust, in fact it does so as you're rinsing. I may have to rethink my position. Harold |
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Rust was chemistry question
Hey Bob,
Maybe that's why it was in the dump! I've got some stuff, in particular a cheapish brand of center drills, that rust anytime after their first use, while sitting in a nice Kennedy box with all sorts of other items that are not rusting. Can't stop it. And it's a rust almost like satin anodizing, more like a light coating or a stain than something heavy. I think it's just the steel make-up. It's more like an "oxidation" than a "rust". Maybe from the heat of cutting? Anyway, we're going to see about rust come this Tuesday, when my unprotected machines arrive in the semi-trailer truck, where they've been sitting since early June. They were supposed to only be there for a month of warm and dry weather, but it's taken 3-1/2 months for the builder to complete my new "shed". I'll be unloading in the fall here. Drizzly rain this morning, and light fog for a few hours early everyday now. Oh goodie! Wish me luck! Take care. Brian Lawson, Bothwell, Ontario. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 07:48:27 -0500, Bob Engelhardt wrote: Harold & Susan Vordos wrote: ... If you've not put any steel in HCL, perhaps you should do so ... ... my personal experiences as well. ... consider the reality of the situation at hand. ... It would be highly unlikely that any salt would have been formed. My PERSONAL EXPERIENCE is this: I found a charge-driving nail gun at the dump. Nice, but badly rusted. I took it all apart and put it in HCl. I then neutralized with lye (or maybe TSP). I rinsed really well, oiled it, and reassembled. I couple of days later I noticed quite a bit of rust. "Dang!", I thought, "I guess that I didn't neutralize well enough." I repeated the entire process and was _really_ careful about neutralizing. It rusted again, badly. Bob |
#38
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chemistry question
In article , Gary Coffman says...
What we said was that using caustic soda, or baking soda, or any other alkali metal base to *neutralize* HCl remaining on the steel from an acid dip produces a salt (in this case NaCl, table salt). I think the standard, visceral demonstration for this is the one typically done in a beginning chemistry class. The instructor demonstrates some NaOH solution, how it will be terribly causting and then the same with some concentrated hydrochloric acid, again a piece of metal or whatnot dropped in the beaker, Then you mix the correct proportions and the result is then imbibied in front of the audience. Salt water, see? Almost as good as the milk carton full of oxy hydrogen mix from electrosis of water... Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
#39
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chemistry question
On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 18:17:53 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote something .......and in reply I say!: I keep hearing that same response, but how much salt would be in question? One would have rinsed the parts in clear water, then in a solution of sodium hydroxide. When the items in question are introduced to the lye solution the amount of HCL remaining on the parts should be down to next to nothing, and would most likely already have been neutralized by the iron itself. But if you have removed the HCl to the point where the salt will not matter, what is the point of "neutralising" it with the lye? Smart-sounding question, but genuine. I have always used simple rinsing and then oil (WD40 or whatever) if needed rather than NaCl, because of the salt argument. _Does_ the lye protect the steel in any way? If you've not put any steel in HCL, perhaps you should do so to understand the speed at which it reacts, especially if heated. I have done it. Yes it rusts anyway if left. Please read the post by Koz, which is in keeping with my personal experiences as well. I have no argument with the theory of salt being a by-product, but one might consider the reality of the situation at hand. Actually burying the steel in lye, as those conveyors apparently are, is quite different from having dipped them for a short while and then left them out to air. In this instance, the part(s) would be protected by the residual lye. It would be highly unlikely that any salt would have been formed. ************************************************** **************************************** Until I do the other one,this one means nothing Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music remove ns from my header address to reply via email !! ") _/ ) ( ) _//- \__/ |
#40
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Rust was chemistry question
Brian Lawson wrote:
here. Drizzly rain this morning, and light fog for a few hours early everyday now. Oh goodie! Wish me luck! Get a spray can of CRC 3-36 NOT WD-40 and give the machines a light spray before taking them out of the truck. Good luck. Ted |
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