"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
SNIP
| "The idea that what I want overrides what you want has increasingly
| become part of our thinking, our policies and even our laws.
|
| Both with left- and right-wing extremists. It's the "Christian" "right"
| that wants to ram their brand of "religion"* down all of our throats,
| the constitution notwithstanding. Mandatory prayer in schools. Not
| being able to pledge allegiance to the flag without also confirming the
| existence the Christian god. Government-funded displays of religious
| texts. When they don't get their way about it they whine and moan and
| see to it that liars and cheats get elected to make it happen.

As a Christian, I could care less about what religion you are, and under
no circumstances will I attempt to make you change your mind. Healthy
discussion is one thing, but coercion is another. I do however, find
offense to any school teaching "no religion" as a religious belief to my
kids. Like it or not, atheism is still a religion, just as is humanism and
so forth. There is no such thing as mandatory prayer in school, and never
has been. No one is monitoring my kids' mouths to make sure they speak the
words, or even if they speak at all. To deny the history of our country,
regardless of whether you see it from a historical perspective or not, is
ludicrous when Quanzaa, Islamic thinking, and Jewish holidays all seem to be
acceptable. You can't deny one religion in its entirety and not deny the
others.

| There is
| literally a federal case before the Supreme Court over the fact that
| many colleges and universities refuse to allow military recruiters on
| campus. Why? Because, as the academics will tell you, they are opposed
| to the military, either in general or because they think the military
| are discriminating against homosexuals or for whatever other reasons
| they have. These academics have every right to be against the
| military, for any reason or for no reason. If they don't like the
| military, they can stay away from the military, since there is no
| draft. But what they want is to keep other people away from the
| military, by preventing students from hearing what the military
| recruiters have to say, as students hear what recruiters from all
| sorts of other institutions and movements have to say on campus.
|
| And the "Christian" "right" doesn't want to control what people learn
| about their own bodies, or force schools to undermine good science with
| thinly veiled creation myths? Oh yea, those conservatives are all for
| free speech.

Excuse me. If you take my dollar and do what you want with it with no
strings attached, I could call that charity or a gift, but if you go about
looking a gift horse in the mouth, why should you be offended when I change
my mind? My money in your pocket is not a right, its a privilege. The
schools, when they made the decision to accept government money, agreed to
the strings that were attached. On the subject of creationism, Darwinism,
and intelligent design, well, I hate to tell you, but they are _all_
theories. Each has strong and weak points. To present one theory to kids
and not present them with the whole picture is shortchanging their
education. In one part of the science class they are hopefully taught
analytical process concerning proofs, theorums, and so forth, yet another
day that part gets disregarded because a handful of ideologues don't want
kids to be able to make up their own minds? In this newsgroup, and many
others like it, free thought is critical, and refutation and gentlemanly
discussion is encouraged. The classroom should be no different. Do you
want a whole segment of the population thinking one way or not? Is that
diversity, or just what you define it to be?

| The
| reason there is a legal issue is that a federal law has been passed,
| saying that colleges and universities that forbid military recruiters
| from coming on campus are no longer eligible to receive federal money.
| Academics are outraged.
|
| Given the amount of power that the feds have garnered over the years by
| taxing and bestowing money it makes sense. I can't say that I fully
| agree with them because they can always just say no to the money -- but
| they can't say no to paying taxes; they can't just say "don't subsidize
| me or all of those right-wing ranchers out west" and have it stick.

I send some of my kids to a private school. If I don't like what they
are learning, I can pull them out and find a competitor. Or not send them
there at all. That's the way the free market works. Its my money, after
all, and I can do what I want with it (well, then there's what you want to
do with it...) I don't have to send any of my kids to public school,
either. I can keep them home and teach them survivalism, or atheism, or
paganism, or whatever I feel they ought to know. When they get out in the
real world and find that their education isn't good enough to get them
along, then they come back to me complaining. I, being a private citizen,
am therefore reponsible for the results (and will be held to account by the
authorities,) but when public schools do the same thing, well, tough ****.

| There was some famous guy a couple of thousand years ago who was quoted
| as saying "by their acts you shall know them" or some such. Those are
| good words to follow, now and then.

Action, not words. Stop listening to the rhetoric from your leftist
friends and look for the results. Conservatives have to hear the leftist
stuff all day because it surrounds us in the media, so we actually have to
seek out dissenting opinion. Liberals, on the other hand, never have had to
do that, nor feel the need, so are never exposed to the true diversity of
opinion necessary to the vibrancy of a free society. Nothing is different
in public schools or universities, either.

carl mciver wrote:

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...

SNIP

| "The idea that what I want overrides what you want has increasingly
| become part of our thinking, our policies and even our laws.
|
| Both with left- and right-wing extremists. It's the "Christian" "right"
| that wants to ram their brand of "religion"* down all of our throats,
| the constitution notwithstanding. Mandatory prayer in schools. Not
| being able to pledge allegiance to the flag without also confirming the
| existence the Christian god. Government-funded displays of religious
| texts. When they don't get their way about it they whine and moan and
| see to it that liars and cheats get elected to make it happen.

As a Christian, I could care less about what religion you are, and under
no circumstances will I attempt to make you change your mind. Healthy
discussion is one thing, but coercion is another. I do however, find
offense to any school teaching "no religion" as a religious belief to my
kids. Like it or not, atheism is still a religion, just as is humanism and
so forth.

I did not say that atheism is not a religion -- since there is no proof
of the existence or non-existence of God atheism is as much a
faith-based creed as any other.

Putting words into someone's mouth is a cheap debater's trick popular
with extremists of all stripes.

There is no such thing as mandatory prayer in school, and never
has been. No one is monitoring my kids' mouths to make sure they speak the
words, or even if they speak at all.

Can I say the official pledge of allegiance without tacitly affirming
the existence of the Judeo-Christian, even the fundamentalist's God? I
can't. And while I believe that there is much Truth in Christianity, I
don't believe that it is the whole story, I don't believe it is for me
to say whether God exists and in what form, and I _do_ believe that the
fundamentalists who seem to be holding sway these days take us further
away, not closer to, whatever the deity is. So if I say the pledge I
have to knuckle down to, apparently, you. If I don't say the pledge I
cannot affirm my patriotism. Every time the pledge is recited I have to
choose between my country and my religious beliefs.

Maybe you're happy with barring people from caring about their country,
or maybe you're happy with forcing other people to support religions
beliefs that they cannot believe in. I'm not.

To deny the history of our country,
regardless of whether you see it from a historical perspective or not, is
ludicrous when Quanzaa, Islamic thinking, and Jewish holidays all seem to be
acceptable.

The idea that the US was founded by right-wing Christians is a myth,
mostly expounded by right-wing Christians trying to take us back to a
past that never existed. The founding fathers ranged from seriously
devout churchgoing believers, to believers who felt that the church got
in the way of God, to deists, and finally to not a few atheists. I
wouldn't be surprised to find out that there were some Jews in the mix
but I will grant you that most of the spectrum went from Christian to
atheist; any devout Moslems were probably slaves.

So, to quote: "To deny the history of our country, regardless of whether
you see it from a historical perspective or not, is ludicrous". But to
speak falsehoods loudly -- that's just good politics.

You can't deny one religion in its entirety and not deny the
others.

Boy, you're just pulling out all the stops, aren't you? The reason you
read about the 10 commandments being posted in a courthouse and not
other religious commandments, and about Christmas displays being
complained about, etc., is because the other religions never had their
displays in the first place! You cannot seriously tell me that you
don't already know that.

| There is
| literally a federal case before the Supreme Court over the fact that
| many colleges and universities refuse to allow military recruiters on
| campus. Why? Because, as the academics will tell you, they are opposed
| to the military, either in general or because they think the military
| are discriminating against homosexuals or for whatever other reasons
| they have. These academics have every right to be against the
| military, for any reason or for no reason. If they don't like the
| military, they can stay away from the military, since there is no
| draft. But what they want is to keep other people away from the
| military, by preventing students from hearing what the military
| recruiters have to say, as students hear what recruiters from all
| sorts of other institutions and movements have to say on campus.
|
| And the "Christian" "right" doesn't want to control what people learn
| about their own bodies, or force schools to undermine good science with
| thinly veiled creation myths? Oh yea, those conservatives are all for
| free speech.

Excuse me. If you take my dollar and do what you want with it with no
strings attached, I could call that charity or a gift, but if you go about
looking a gift horse in the mouth, why should you be offended when I change
my mind? My money in your pocket is not a right, its a privilege.

I'm talking about _my_ kid's money in _your_ damn pocket. That's what
borrow and spend is all about. Very good technique, turning the
argument around like that. Did you actually read my post, or just every
other word?

The
schools, when they made the decision to accept government money, agreed to
the strings that were attached. On the subject of creationism, Darwinism,
and intelligent design, well, I hate to tell you, but they are _all_
theories.

It's just that one of them has significantly more objective support than
the other two. If you ignore God to the extent of closing your eyes to
the evidence of the world that He made in preference to some book
written and edited by mere men then you have my pity.

To believe in creationism, or even in intelligent design, is to believe
in a God who is either incompetent or who is cruel and perverse. I
don't believe in a cruel and perverse God, or an incompetent one. I
don't believe that God tells the truth through Pat Robertson and lies
through the very rocks under my feet. I don't believe that God tells
the truth through you and lies through the structure of my cells.
Speaking as an engineer I don't believe that a creature that has a spine
and walks upright is very good design at all, and I can think of a few
other points of mammalian architecture that would be profoundly stupid
if drawn up ahead of time, but which make perfect sense if you accept
that we evolved from little fish swimming in the sea.

Looking at something that exists and kinda works and thinking that it
was well-designed, or even designed at all, simply shows a profound lack
of imagination. Thinking that you are so very important that someone
went and created the whole universe just for you and things that look
like you is arrogant, shortsighted and stupid.

You will never see Truth if you deny truth.

Each has strong and weak points. To present one theory to kids
and not present them with the whole picture is shortchanging their
education. In one part of the science class they are hopefully taught
analytical process concerning proofs, theorums, and so forth, yet another
day that part gets disregarded because a handful of ideologues don't want
kids to be able to make up their own minds?

So we should teach Flying Spaghetti Monsterism
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster), since it has
about as much evidence of validity as creationism or intelligent design?
And we should use public money to do it? How about the Navaho
creation myths, and Greek, and Inuit, etc. -- should we elevate all of
those to the same level as Christian creationism and so-called
intelligent design? Should we teach them with public money? What about
Zoroastrianism, or Hindu creation myths? Aztec? Toltec? Inca? That's
going to be a mighty full school year.

If we _did_ teach kids about the scientific method, and about how
theories get accepted, then creationism or ID could be held up as
premier examples of anti-science, where you decide what conclusion you
want to reach _first_, then work backward from that to your evidence,
discarding, warping or rationalizing away anything that doesn't fit with
the goal you had in mind. Science is not based on the arrogance that
says "I am right, how do I arrange the evidence to support me". It is
based on the humble assumption "I am human and fallible; what is this
evidence trying to tell me".

In this newsgroup, and many
others like it, free thought is critical, and refutation and gentlemanly
discussion is encouraged. The classroom should be no different. Do you
want a whole segment of the population thinking one way or not? Is that
diversity, or just what you define it to be?

| The
| reason there is a legal issue is that a federal law has been passed,
| saying that colleges and universities that forbid military recruiters
| from coming on campus are no longer eligible to receive federal money.
| Academics are outraged.
|
| Given the amount of power that the feds have garnered over the years by
| taxing and bestowing money it makes sense. I can't say that I fully
| agree with them because they can always just say no to the money -- but
| they can't say no to paying taxes; they can't just say "don't subsidize
| me or all of those right-wing ranchers out west" and have it stick.

I send some of my kids to a private school. If I don't like what they
are learning, I can pull them out and find a competitor. Or not send them
there at all. That's the way the free market works. Its my money, after
all, and I can do what I want with it (well, then there's what you want to
do with it...) I don't have to send any of my kids to public school,
either.

No, but you do have to pay for it, and so do I. And since this is a
representative democracy we should have some say it how it's spent, and
a responsibility to see that it's spent well. If we raise a nation full
of people who are taught that it's better to get along with the power
structure by ignoring sensible science (like they did in the Soviet
Union) then the country as a whole would just crumble (like the -- oh
never mind). If I really didn't care I'd just move to Canada or Germany
or someplace like that, but I'm kinda sentimental about this old place.

I can keep them home and teach them survivalism, or atheism, or
paganism, or whatever I feel they ought to know. When they get out in the
real world and find that their education isn't good enough to get them
along, then they come back to me complaining. I, being a private citizen,
am therefore reponsible for the results (and will be held to account by the
authorities,) but when public schools do the same thing, well, tough ****.

| There was some famous guy a couple of thousand years ago who was quoted
| as saying "by their acts you shall know them" or some such. Those are
| good words to follow, now and then.

Action, not words. Stop listening to the rhetoric from your leftist
friends and look for the results.

Did I say I was a leftist? Or even liberal? Is anyone who puts a burr
under your saddle a leftist? MacCarthy did that -- anyone who spoke
against him got accused of being a commie or a dupe. Were Stalin and
Lenin right wingers? Is Cliff a conservative? I was speaking out
against extremists of all kinds. Putting words into someone's mouth is
a cheap debater's trick popular with extremists of _all_ stripes.

Conservatives have to hear the leftist
stuff all day because it surrounds us in the media, so we actually have to
seek out dissenting opinion.

Ohh, it's that all-pervasive liberal media, like Bill O'Reilly, Rush
Limbaugh, Fox News, all supported by Pat Robertson who's gonna die if we
don't pundle up another $1000000. Yup, we're surrounded by liberal
freaks alright.

Liberals, on the other hand, never have had to
do that, nor feel the need, so are never exposed to the true diversity of
opinion necessary to the vibrancy of a free society. Nothing is different
in public schools or universities, either.

Yup. That's right. When they were killing northern kids down south for
the crime of trying to help black folks register to vote that there
country was just overrun by liberals suppressing the true diversity of
opinion necessary to the vibrancy of a free society. When Klan members
could kill with impunity it was because of all the liberals suppressing
the true diversity of opinion necessary to the vibrancy of a free
society. When Haliburton takes $100000 dollars for themselves for every
$50 that actually go toward reconstruction in Iraq or Afghanistan that's
because of all the liberals suppressing the true diversity of opinion
necessary to the vibrancy of a free society. I suppose when the
religious fundamentalists of the day paid to have Jesus nailed to a tree
for calling them hypocrites it was because of liberals suppressing the
true diversity of opinion necessary to the vibrancy of a free society, too?

Don't misinterpret me he The whole 'PC' movement in the campuses
sucks big time. But the right wing extremists don't want free, fair and
true diversity any more than the left wing extremists do -- that's not
what extremism is about. Extremism is about you forcing your opinions
down my throat. It's about being so far to the right _or_ the left that
you've left all common sense and much of human decency behind and met
somewhere in the middle of hell. That's why Hitler and Stalin were
allies, even though in theory they were diametrically opposed.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:18:17 GMT, "carl mciver"
wrote:

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
SNIP
| "The idea that what I want overrides what you want has increasingly
| become part of our thinking, our policies and even our laws.
|
| Both with left- and right-wing extremists. It's the "Christian" "right"
| that wants to ram their brand of "religion"* down all of our throats,
| the constitution notwithstanding. Mandatory prayer in schools. Not
| being able to pledge allegiance to the flag without also confirming the
| existence the Christian god. Government-funded displays of religious
| texts. When they don't get their way about it they whine and moan and
| see to it that liars and cheats get elected to make it happen.

As a Christian, I could care less about what religion you are, and under
no circumstances will I attempt to make you change your mind. Healthy
discussion is one thing, but coercion is another. I do however, find
offense to any school teaching "no religion" as a religious belief to my
kids. Like it or not, atheism is still a religion, just as is humanism and
so forth. There is no such thing as mandatory prayer in school, and never
has been. No one is monitoring my kids' mouths to make sure they speak the
words, or even if they speak at all. To deny the history of our country,
regardless of whether you see it from a historical perspective or not, is
ludicrous when Quanzaa, Islamic thinking, and Jewish holidays all seem to be
acceptable. You can't deny one religion in its entirety and not deny the
others.

| There is
| literally a federal case before the Supreme Court over the fact that
| many colleges and universities refuse to allow military recruiters on
| campus. Why? Because, as the academics will tell you, they are opposed
| to the military, either in general or because they think the military
| are discriminating against homosexuals or for whatever other reasons
| they have. These academics have every right to be against the
| military, for any reason or for no reason. If they don't like the
| military, they can stay away from the military, since there is no
| draft. But what they want is to keep other people away from the
| military, by preventing students from hearing what the military
| recruiters have to say, as students hear what recruiters from all
| sorts of other institutions and movements have to say on campus.
|
| And the "Christian" "right" doesn't want to control what people learn
| about their own bodies, or force schools to undermine good science with
| thinly veiled creation myths? Oh yea, those conservatives are all for
| free speech.

Excuse me. If you take my dollar and do what you want with it with no
strings attached, I could call that charity or a gift, but if you go about
looking a gift horse in the mouth, why should you be offended when I change
my mind? My money in your pocket is not a right, its a privilege. The
schools, when they made the decision to accept government money, agreed to
the strings that were attached. On the subject of creationism, Darwinism,
and intelligent design, well, I hate to tell you, but they are _all_
theories. Each has strong and weak points. To present one theory to kids
and not present them with the whole picture is shortchanging their
education. In one part of the science class they are hopefully taught
analytical process concerning proofs, theorums, and so forth, yet another
day that part gets disregarded because a handful of ideologues don't want
kids to be able to make up their own minds? In this newsgroup, and many
others like it, free thought is critical, and refutation and gentlemanly
discussion is encouraged. The classroom should be no different. Do you
want a whole segment of the population thinking one way or not? Is that
diversity, or just what you define it to be?

| The
| reason there is a legal issue is that a federal law has been passed,
| saying that colleges and universities that forbid military recruiters
| from coming on campus are no longer eligible to receive federal money.
| Academics are outraged.
|
| Given the amount of power that the feds have garnered over the years by
| taxing and bestowing money it makes sense. I can't say that I fully
| agree with them because they can always just say no to the money -- but
| they can't say no to paying taxes; they can't just say "don't subsidize
| me or all of those right-wing ranchers out west" and have it stick.

I send some of my kids to a private school. If I don't like what they
are learning, I can pull them out and find a competitor. Or not send them
there at all. That's the way the free market works. Its my money, after
all, and I can do what I want with it (well, then there's what you want to
do with it...) I don't have to send any of my kids to public school,
either. I can keep them home and teach them survivalism, or atheism, or
paganism, or whatever I feel they ought to know. When they get out in the
real world and find that their education isn't good enough to get them
along, then they come back to me complaining. I, being a private citizen,
am therefore reponsible for the results (and will be held to account by the
authorities,) but when public schools do the same thing, well, tough ****.

| There was some famous guy a couple of thousand years ago who was quoted
| as saying "by their acts you shall know them" or some such. Those are
| good words to follow, now and then.

Action, not words. Stop listening to the rhetoric from your leftist
friends and look for the results. Conservatives have to hear the leftist
stuff all day because it surrounds us in the media, so we actually have to
seek out dissenting opinion. Liberals, on the other hand, never have had to
do that, nor feel the need, so are never exposed to the true diversity of
opinion necessary to the vibrancy of a free society. Nothing is different
in public schools or universities, either.



Bravo!!! Well said!

Hear hear!!

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner