Howdy!

I know this question gets asked a lot, but most of the answers I found
wer from '97-'98. Things change...

I've been working on electronics for robotics applications for a
while, and I am now ready to start working on the hardware. I decided
to buy a lathe and mill, and after a few days of searching, have my
sights set on Sherline.

I'm going to need to make small parts, mostly out of aluminum, as well
as gears and threads. Will the sherline machines be adequate for
this?

I was looking at the Emco machines as well as the ones sold by harbor
freight, but most of what I read about them had them dismissed as
"toys". While I have heard a few people dismiss Sherline as "toys",
it is not nearly as often as the other machines I've been looking at,
and Sherline is at about the maximum of my price range.

Has anyone successfully made gears on a Sherline, or is that just a
ridiculous proposition?

I'm also interested in the CNC capability. Any comments on that? Is
it worth it?

Can anyone suggest a better machine for around the same price as a
Sherline?

Any help, suggestions, or insights would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance...

I don't have any direct experience with the Sherlines but I do know that
they're more of a "micro" lathe and are very limited in what you can do with
them. I'm also fairly sure that you can't cut threads on them.

As for the Harbor Freight and other mini lathes take a look at this site. I
think it might change your mind about them.

http://www.mini-lathe.com/

Also, when you say that the Sherline is at about the maximum of your price
range it's probably worse than you think because you're probably not
figuring in the cost of tooling. As a general rule of thumb most people say
you'll spend about the same for tooling as you do for the lathe. Of course
that varies depending on where you buy your tooling and what jobs you plan
to do but you will definitely have to spend a fair amount on tooling.

I have a JET 9x20 myself and it's kind of like a larger version of the
Harbor Freight mini so I don't have any direct experience with the minis but
it looks like the best deal out there is the Homier 7x12. It's only $299
and they do a travelling truckload tool sale so if they come to your area
you won't have to pay shipping. Go to their site and sign up for them to
email you whenever they'll be in your area. They don't post a schedule so
that's the only way you'll be able to find out.

http://www.homier.com

If they won't be in your area anytime soon watch for a sale on the Harbor
Freight lathe. I think it was only $329.99 last month for Inside Track Club
members (or maybe it was $369.99) and they ship any order over $50 for free.
Of course if you have a local store that's even better because you can go
and look at one yourself. :-)

Best Regards,
Keith Marshall


"I'm not grown up enough to be so old!"


Brad Brigade wrote in message
...
Howdy!

I know this question gets asked a lot, but most of the answers I found
wer from '97-'98. Things change...

I've been working on electronics for robotics applications for a
while, and I am now ready to start working on the hardware. I decided
to buy a lathe and mill, and after a few days of searching, have my
sights set on Sherline.

I'm going to need to make small parts, mostly out of aluminum, as well
as gears and threads. Will the sherline machines be adequate for
this?

I was looking at the Emco machines as well as the ones sold by harbor
freight, but most of what I read about them had them dismissed as
"toys". While I have heard a few people dismiss Sherline as "toys",
it is not nearly as often as the other machines I've been looking at,
and Sherline is at about the maximum of my price range.

Has anyone successfully made gears on a Sherline, or is that just a
ridiculous proposition?

I'm also interested in the CNC capability. Any comments on that? Is
it worth it?

Can anyone suggest a better machine for around the same price as a
Sherline?

Any help, suggestions, or insights would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance...

The Sherline won't do threads unless something has changed (haven't been to
their site for a while) so that lathe is out. I'd go with something larger
anyway as you will always like the additional cap. of a larger lathe. A 10"
or 12" Craftsman or Atlas lathe is usually a good lathe to have and are
often available for fairly cheap.
I might also note that I'm not a fan of the multimachines as they tend not
to do any particular chore very well.

--
Bob May
Losing weight is easy! If you ever want to lose weight, eat and drink less.
Works evevery time it is tried!

The Sherline won't do threads unless something has changed (haven't been to

Sherline sells a thread cutting attachement which works with a hand crank.

I have two atlas(craftsman) 12x36 lathes FS in the chicagoland area.

chuck

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:53:46 -0700, Brad Brigade wrote:
I've been working on electronics for robotics applications for a
while, and I am now ready to start working on the hardware. I decided
to buy a lathe and mill, and after a few days of searching, have my
sights set on Sherline.

I'm going to need to make small parts, mostly out of aluminum, as well
as gears and threads. Will the sherline machines be adequate for
this?

How small? The Sherline is *tiny*. It is really a *micro* lathe rather
than a mini lathe. They're fine little machines, and there's a ton of
accessories available for them, but they are *tiny*. A similar machine
is the Taig (which I own). Neither will natively cut threads, though
there are ways around that.

I was looking at the Emco machines as well as the ones sold by harbor

Emco or ENCO? Big difference.

freight, but most of what I read about them had them dismissed as
"toys". While I have heard a few people dismiss Sherline as "toys",
it is not nearly as often as the other machines I've been looking at,
and Sherline is at about the maximum of my price range.

The Taig is a bit less expensive than the Sherline, and a bit more
robustly built too.

Has anyone successfully made gears on a Sherline, or is that just a
ridiculous proposition?

Well, lets just say it would be a *challenge*. Straight spur gears are
possible, but any other gear form is going to be very difficult. I'd strongly
suggest you consider *purchasing* gears, or salvaging them out of other
equipment, rather than trying to make your own with a micro lathe. You
might have a bit better luck making them with a mill and rotary table.

I'm also interested in the CNC capability. Any comments on that? Is
it worth it?

I think that CNC would be more helpful on the little mill they sell than it
would be on their lathe.

Can anyone suggest a better machine for around the same price as a
Sherline?

You really need to tell us more about the size work you're going to do.
If you're familiar with Battlebots, give us the class closest to the size of
the robot you're building. That'll give us a better idea what sort of
machinery to recommend. I'm thinking that unless your robot is going
to be a flyweight, you're going to need bigger machinery than Sherline.

Gary

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 01:02:31 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:

How small? The Sherline is *tiny*. It is really a *micro* lathe rather
than a mini lathe. They're fine little machines, and there's a ton of
accessories available for them, but they are *tiny*. A similar machine
is the Taig (which I own). Neither will natively cut threads, though
there are ways around that.

Then I'm guessing it won't do. I'll have to find something else.

I was looking at the Emco machines as well as the ones sold by harbor

Emco or ENCO? Big difference.

Had no idea there was Emco and Enco. I was referring to the modular
lathe/mill/drill unimat thing. But from what I heard, it's pretty
cheap, so I dismissed it.

Has anyone successfully made gears on a Sherline, or is that just a
ridiculous proposition?

Well, lets just say it would be a *challenge*. Straight spur gears are
possible, but any other gear form is going to be very difficult. I'd strongly
suggest you consider *purchasing* gears, or salvaging them out of other
equipment, rather than trying to make your own with a micro lathe. You
might have a bit better luck making them with a mill and rotary table.

Well... I actually WANT to make the gears. Any of the stuff I've made
over the years I could have bought for far less money, but that was
never the point. And I wasn't suggesting doing it on the lathe, but
with the mill and rotary table as you mentioned. But forget the
Sherline, is there ANY mill that can make decent gears for around
$600? If not, then screw 'em.

Can anyone suggest a better machine for around the same price as a
Sherline?

You really need to tell us more about the size work you're going to do.
If you're familiar with Battlebots, give us the class closest to the size of
the robot you're building. That'll give us a better idea what sort of
machinery to recommend. I'm thinking that unless your robot is going
to be a flyweight, you're going to need bigger machinery than Sherline.

Gary

My aim is to build a small, two-motor, autonomous robot, probably one
foot long at most, ten pounds maybe. No saw blades, or cannons, or
spiked balls, just wheels. I also would like to be able to machine
parts to modify paintball guns and other small mechanical devices.
And then, in my search for a lathe I've also come across various
examples of small steam engines and so on, built with small lathes and
mills, and I now have an itch to try that out too.

I really want to be able to make threads and gears. If I can't do
that, it's not worth it for any price. And I mean to make gears on a
mill. I'm actually in the market for a lathe AND mill, I've just been
saying lathe a lot cause I'm lazy. Sorry.

So I'm gonna back away from Sherline. Now I'm thinking of getting an
Atlas or Craftsman as suggested by Bob May, or a Grizzly 7x12. I read
somewhere that the Grizzly and Harbor Freight 7x12 were almost the
same machine, but the Grizzly has more features. So any
recommendation there?

And as for the mill. Grizzly and Harbor Freight have a mill too. Any
comments on those?

I'm hoping to spend about $2000 on a lathe, mill, and tools.

Thanks to everyone for the help, I really, really, reeeeeeally
appreciate it...

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:26:03 GMT, "Keith Marshall"
wrote:

I don't have any direct experience with the Sherlines but I do know that
they're more of a "micro" lathe and are very limited in what you can do with
them. I'm also fairly sure that you can't cut threads on them.

As for the Harbor Freight and other mini lathes take a look at this site. I
think it might change your mind about them.

http://www.mini-lathe.com/

That is an awesome site, thank you!

I really like my Emco Compact 5 with the milling attachment, had two of them
about 7 years now and have made everything including gears and done
threading. They're slightly smaller than the 7x12 Chinese machines but are
much better built and can do more accurate work from what I've seen.

I have a buddy that's converted a manual machine to CNC and Don Nichols on
this board has one of the factory CNC versions he seems very happy with.
Here's a link:

http://www.blueridgemachinery.com/specialcompact5.htm

I see them on e-Bay regularily at half that price.

Terry Keeley

Nothing improves until someone stops
and questions an accepted assumption...


Brad Brigade wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 01:02:31 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:

How small? The Sherline is *tiny*. It is really a *micro* lathe rather
than a mini lathe. They're fine little machines, and there's a ton of
accessories available for them, but they are *tiny*. A similar machine
is the Taig (which I own). Neither will natively cut threads, though
there are ways around that.

Then I'm guessing it won't do. I'll have to find something else.

I was looking at the Emco machines as well as the ones sold by harbor

Emco or ENCO? Big difference.

Had no idea there was Emco and Enco. I was referring to the modular
lathe/mill/drill unimat thing. But from what I heard, it's pretty
cheap, so I dismissed it.

Has anyone successfully made gears on a Sherline, or is that just a
ridiculous proposition?

Well, lets just say it would be a *challenge*. Straight spur gears are
possible, but any other gear form is going to be very difficult. I'd
strongly
suggest you consider *purchasing* gears, or salvaging them out of other
equipment, rather than trying to make your own with a micro lathe. You
might have a bit better luck making them with a mill and rotary table.

Well... I actually WANT to make the gears. Any of the stuff I've made
over the years I could have bought for far less money, but that was
never the point. And I wasn't suggesting doing it on the lathe, but
with the mill and rotary table as you mentioned. But forget the
Sherline, is there ANY mill that can make decent gears for around
$600? If not, then screw 'em.

Can anyone suggest a better machine for around the same price as a
Sherline?

You really need to tell us more about the size work you're going to do.
If you're familiar with Battlebots, give us the class closest to the size
of
the robot you're building. That'll give us a better idea what sort of
machinery to recommend. I'm thinking that unless your robot is going
to be a flyweight, you're going to need bigger machinery than Sherline.

Gary

My aim is to build a small, two-motor, autonomous robot, probably one
foot long at most, ten pounds maybe. No saw blades, or cannons, or
spiked balls, just wheels. I also would like to be able to machine
parts to modify paintball guns and other small mechanical devices.
And then, in my search for a lathe I've also come across various
examples of small steam engines and so on, built with small lathes and
mills, and I now have an itch to try that out too.

I really want to be able to make threads and gears. If I can't do
that, it's not worth it for any price. And I mean to make gears on a
mill. I'm actually in the market for a lathe AND mill, I've just been
saying lathe a lot cause I'm lazy. Sorry.

So I'm gonna back away from Sherline. Now I'm thinking of getting an
Atlas or Craftsman as suggested by Bob May, or a Grizzly 7x12. I read
somewhere that the Grizzly and Harbor Freight 7x12 were almost the
same machine, but the Grizzly has more features. So any
recommendation there?

And as for the mill. Grizzly and Harbor Freight have a mill too. Any
comments on those?

I'm hoping to spend about $2000 on a lathe, mill, and tools.

Thanks to everyone for the help, I really, really, reeeeeeally
appreciate it...

In article ,
Gary Coffman wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:53:46 -0700, Brad Brigade wrote:

[ ... ]

I was looking at the Emco machines as well as the ones sold by harbor

Emco or ENCO? Big difference.

Amen! I've got an Emco-Maier Compact-5/CNC, and for its size,
it is a really nice machine. Austrian precision.

freight, but most of what I read about them had them dismissed as
"toys". While I have heard a few people dismiss Sherline as "toys",
it is not nearly as often as the other machines I've been looking at,
and Sherline is at about the maximum of my price range.

The Taig is a bit less expensive than the Sherline, and a bit more
robustly built too.

Agreed!

Has anyone successfully made gears on a Sherline, or is that just a
ridiculous proposition?

Well, lets just say it would be a *challenge*. Straight spur gears are
possible, but any other gear form is going to be very difficult.

Has anyone here ever made herringbone gears? :-)

I'd strongly
suggest you consider *purchasing* gears, or salvaging them out of other
equipment, rather than trying to make your own with a micro lathe. You
might have a bit better luck making them with a mill and rotary table.

Also agreed. You'll need some form of index head in combination
with the milling machine to cut the teeth, and the lathe to turn the
gear blank to dimensions before cutting the teeth.

I'm also interested in the CNC capability. Any comments on that? Is
it worth it?

I think that CNC would be more helpful on the little mill they sell than it
would be on their lathe.

Well ... on the lathe, it could add threading capacity, given a
proper index plate and sensor on the spindle.

Can anyone suggest a better machine for around the same price as a
Sherline?

Better for what? New or used? The Taig is about the size of
the Sherline, and is more rigid overall, and probably has a more
powerful motor than the Sherline (at least mine does, I believe), but
there are more accessories for the Sherline (many of which can be used
with the Taig just as well.)

For just a bit larger, in the used category, I would suggest
watching for an Emco-Maier Compact-5. (Note that there are three things
called Compact-5. One is the manual lathe with thread cutting gears.
One is the CNC version with built-in computer (which I have), and one is
the Compact-5/PC which requires a PC and a special interface card and
software to use it.

My preference is for the Compact-5/CNC (since that is what I
have), but it costs a lot more than the manual one -- even on eBay.

You really need to tell us more about the size work you're going to do.
If you're familiar with Battlebots, give us the class closest to the size of
the robot you're building. That'll give us a better idea what sort of
machinery to recommend. I'm thinking that unless your robot is going
to be a flyweight, you're going to need bigger machinery than Sherline.

Amen!

Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

In article ,
Brad Brigade wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 01:02:31 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:

How small? The Sherline is *tiny*. It is really a *micro* lathe rather
than a mini lathe. They're fine little machines, and there's a ton of
accessories available for them, but they are *tiny*. A similar machine
is the Taig (which I own). Neither will natively cut threads, though
there are ways around that.

Then I'm guessing it won't do. I'll have to find something else.

Agreed.

I was looking at the Emco machines as well as the ones sold by harbor

Emco or ENCO? Big difference.

Had no idea there was Emco and Enco. I was referring to the modular
lathe/mill/drill unimat thing. But from what I heard, it's pretty
cheap, so I dismissed it.

That is only one of the machines made by Emco. My Compact-5/CNC
is another, the Compact-8 is a nice sized machine sort of half-way
between my Compact-5 and my Clausing 12x24".

[ ... ]

Well... I actually WANT to make the gears. Any of the stuff I've made
over the years I could have bought for far less money, but that was
never the point.

O.K. A lot of us can relate to that.

And I wasn't suggesting doing it on the lathe, but
with the mill and rotary table as you mentioned. But forget the
Sherline, is there ANY mill that can make decent gears for around
$600? If not, then screw 'em.

Yes -- a lot less for the mill (but not counting the cost of the
dividing head needed to index the gears.) I got a Nichols horizontal
mill (with my name, how could I resist?) for $200.00 from eBay. (Of
course -- with shipping, that about doubled the price. :-) It would be a
very nice machine for making small straight-tooth gears, and I'm
actually setting up to make some. :-) But I already had the dividing
head, which might cost you more than the mill.

Note that the Nichols, as a small (but solid) horizontal mill,
weighs in at about 1000 pounds.

[ ... ]

You really need to tell us more about the size work you're going to do.
If you're familiar with Battlebots, give us the class closest to the size of

[ ... ]

My aim is to build a small, two-motor, autonomous robot, probably one
foot long at most, ten pounds maybe. No saw blades, or cannons, or
spiked balls, just wheels. I also would like to be able to machine
parts to modify paintball guns and other small mechanical devices.
And then, in my search for a lathe I've also come across various
examples of small steam engines and so on, built with small lathes and
mills, and I now have an itch to try that out too.

O.K.

I really want to be able to make threads and gears. If I can't do
that, it's not worth it for any price. And I mean to make gears on a
mill. I'm actually in the market for a lathe AND mill, I've just been
saying lathe a lot cause I'm lazy. Sorry.

So I'm gonna back away from Sherline. Now I'm thinking of getting an
Atlas or Craftsman as suggested by Bob May, or a Grizzly 7x12. I read
somewhere that the Grizzly and Harbor Freight 7x12 were almost the
same machine, but the Grizzly has more features. So any
recommendation there?

I would go for the Atlas or Craftsman. At least 10" swing. As
used machines, you'll have to look a bit to find them, and you should
read Dave Ficken's web page on evaluating used machines, but you will
get a more capable machine. (And one problem which I have read about
with the import machines (Grizzley and Harbor Freight and similar) is
that it is difficult to get the spindle speed low enough for reasonable
threading to a shoulder, given normal human reaction time.

And as for the mill. Grizzly and Harbor Freight have a mill too. Any
comments on those?

I'm hoping to spend about $2000 on a lathe, mill, and tools.

With used machines and tools, this may be do-able, but beware
that you will want better measuring instruments and such, and you *will*
get above that price -- eventually. But you can start out for less, as
witness my Nichols mill for $200.00 and my Clausing 12x24" lathe for
about $1700, IIRC. Down at the 10" swing size, you should be able to do
better -- as long as you steer clear of the South Bend lathes. (Not that
they are *bad* -- it is just that they have name recognition in the
hobby world that the others do not, and as a result the used prices are
noticeably higher.

Best of luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Brad Brigade wrote in message . ..
(snip)

My aim is to build a small, two-motor, autonomous robot, probably one
foot long at most, ten pounds maybe. No saw blades, or cannons, or
spiked balls, just wheels. I also would like to be able to machine
parts to modify paintball guns and other small mechanical devices.
And then, in my search for a lathe I've also come across various
examples of small steam engines and so on, built with small lathes and
mills, and I now have an itch to try that out too.

I really want to be able to make threads and gears. If I can't do
that, it's not worth it for any price. And I mean to make gears on a
mill. I'm actually in the market for a lathe AND mill, I've just been
saying lathe a lot cause I'm lazy. Sorry.

So I'm gonna back away from Sherline. Now I'm thinking of getting an
Atlas or Craftsman as suggested by Bob May, or a Grizzly 7x12. I read
somewhere that the Grizzly and Harbor Freight 7x12 were almost the
same machine, but the Grizzly has more features. So any
recommendation there?

And as for the mill. Grizzly and Harbor Freight have a mill too. Any
comments on those?

I'm hoping to spend about $2000 on a lathe, mill, and tools.

Thanks to everyone for the help, I really, really, reeeeeeally
appreciate it...

Brad,

I went through this whole process myself a few years ago. I don't have
any recommendations on specific tools, but I have some general advice:

Go to enco.com and sign up for their flyer. You'll get a new one every
month, and its always got almost all the same stuff in it month after
month, so don't be worried that you have to "act now" or miss the
sale. Anyway, the reason I say to get this flyer is so that you can
see what kind of tools/accesories are available. Lots of the stuff
that enco sells is not the best quality, but it will do for hobby use.

You don't have to buy everything at once. In fact, you probably can't.
I bought one machine and some tools to start with, then seemed to be
ordering more tools about every other month for quite some time. Its
one of those situations where you make something, then later you're
looking in a catalog and then you see *why* you might want bore gauges
or roughing endmills or whatever.

Don't buy the imported 116-pc drill set. Instead spend your money on a
good set of number drills. You can get fractional drills anywhere, and
you can go a whole lifetime without *needing* a letter drill.

Cutting threads on a lathe may not be as important as you might think.
You can also cut threads with a die. Speaking of which, Grizzly sells
an excellent HSS tap & die set for only $55. I think I use that tap
and die set on just about every project I make.

You don't need a full set of reamers. Sets are too expensive. Just buy
what sizes you need as they come up.

Get a cheap, expendable scientific calculator for the shop. You'll use
it ALL THE TIME.

You can make a lot of usefull stuff on a small lathe, but be carefull
about getting a mill that's too small. IMHO, I think that some of the
small mills on the market are just too small to be usefull. You have
to consider how you are going to attach your work to the mill's table.
Clamps, vises and rotary tables take up a lot of real estate on the
table. I really think that anything with a table less than about 7x20"
is going to be very frustrating to use.

Start going to flea markets. You never know what you might find, but
I've found something usefull (and cheap!) every time.

Make sure to also budget for some Socket Head Cap Screws with washers
and nuts. If you're making robots, you'll need a good supply of them
in a few different sizes. Keep in mind that if you buy long screws,
you can trim them down to whatever size you need. Also get an
assortment of set screws. You'll use set screws in your robots, and
you'll also need to replace set screws in many of the tools you buy
(new imported tools often come with really bad set screws, used tools
have worn-out set screws).

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 19:11:34 -0700, Brad Brigade wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 01:02:31 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:
Well, lets just say it would be a *challenge*. Straight spur gears are
possible, but any other gear form is going to be very difficult. I'd strongly
suggest you consider *purchasing* gears, or salvaging them out of other
equipment, rather than trying to make your own with a micro lathe. You
might have a bit better luck making them with a mill and rotary table.

Well... I actually WANT to make the gears. Any of the stuff I've made
over the years I could have bought for far less money, but that was
never the point. And I wasn't suggesting doing it on the lathe, but
with the mill and rotary table as you mentioned. But forget the
Sherline, is there ANY mill that can make decent gears for around
$600? If not, then screw 'em.

Not new price, but perhaps you could find used equipment for that
amount. What you really want for gear cutting is a horizontal universal
mill with a gear driven index head. That'll let you cut helical gears as
well as straight spur gears. Used horizontal mills are often pretty cheap
because most hobbyists want "something like a Bridgeport", even
though a vertical mill often isn't the best choice.

Gary

In article , Brad Brigade wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 01:02:31 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:

How small? The Sherline is *tiny*. It is really a *micro* lathe rather
than a mini lathe. They're fine little machines, and there's a ton of
accessories available for them, but they are *tiny*. A similar machine
....
So I'm gonna back away from Sherline. Now I'm thinking of getting an
Atlas or Craftsman as suggested by Bob May, or a Grizzly 7x12. I read
somewhere that the Grizzly and Harbor Freight 7x12 were almost the
same machine, but the Grizzly has more features. So any recommendation
....
I'm hoping to spend about $2000 on a lathe, mill, and tools.

in for a penny? how about a pound? the 9x20(?) is very interesting,
too. s/b avail for about 200.00 more than the 7x10(12?) products when
they are both on sale. --Loren

I'd suggest making a list of all the threads you need to cut, and figure out
how to make those parts on the lathe you intend to buy. For instance, I
needed to buy an extra 100 tooth gear to cut coarse threads on my
Sherline, while cutting metric threads (39x1mm) wasn't a problem, even
with a 20tpi lead screw. (127 tooth gear is standard :-) )

Zack Lau W1VT

in for a penny? how about a pound? the 9x20(?) is very interesting,
too. s/b avail for about 200.00 more than the 7x10(12?) products when
they are both on sale. --Loren

And the 9 x 20's often include a steady rest, a follow rest, a faceplate and
a 4-jaw chuck although the 4-jaw is usually more of a woodworking type
chuck. I don't think the 7x lathes include any of that.

On the negative side though, they don't do left-hand threads (although
they're not that difficult to modify so that they will) and they don't have
a variable speed motor like many of the 7x's.

Best Regards,
Keith Marshall


"I'm not grown up enough to be so old!"


"Loren Coe" wrote in message
. net...
In article , Brad Brigade
wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 01:02:31 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:

How small? The Sherline is *tiny*. It is really a *micro* lathe rather
than a mini lathe. They're fine little machines, and there's a ton of
accessories available for them, but they are *tiny*. A similar machine
...
So I'm gonna back away from Sherline. Now I'm thinking of getting an
Atlas or Craftsman as suggested by Bob May, or a Grizzly 7x12. I read
somewhere that the Grizzly and Harbor Freight 7x12 were almost the
same machine, but the Grizzly has more features. So any recommendation
...
I'm hoping to spend about $2000 on a lathe, mill, and tools.

in for a penny? how about a pound? the 9x20(?) is very interesting,
too. s/b avail for about 200.00 more than the 7x10(12?) products when
they are both on sale. --Loren

Hi,
-
Myford! But sad to say, more bucks. Do a GOOGLE to Blue Ridge
Machinery.
-
Kurt
{:{

On 17 Oct 2003 01:23:59 -0400, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote:


For just a bit larger, in the used category, I would suggest
watching for an Emco-Maier Compact-5. (Note that there are three things
called Compact-5. One is the manual lathe with thread cutting gears.
One is the CNC version with built-in computer (which I have), and one is
the Compact-5/PC which requires a PC and a special interface card and
software to use it.

I believe that one of our resident gurus, Leigh at MarMachine
(catruckman@aol) has a very nice Emco (not Enco) for sale. IRRC, it
uses 5c collets, and his asking price was VERY reasonable.

Gunner

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle
behind each blade of grass." --Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:54:45 -0400 (EDT), (Kurt
{:{) wrote:

Hi,
-
Myford! But sad to say, more bucks. Do a GOOGLE to Blue Ridge
Machinery.
-
Kurt
{:{

I have some Myford acessories for sale.

Gunner

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle
behind each blade of grass." --Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:50:37 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:

Not new price, but perhaps you could find used equipment for that
amount. What you really want for gear cutting is a horizontal universal
mill with a gear driven index head. That'll let you cut helical gears as
well as straight spur gears. Used horizontal mills are often pretty cheap
because most hobbyists want "something like a Bridgeport", even
though a vertical mill often isn't the best choice.

Gary

Horizontal?? Now thats something I never thought of. I've yet to
come across a horizontal mill in all my searching.

If I got a horizontal mill for gear making, would it be any more
annoying to use it for general milling as opposed to a vertical mill?
And if the index head could stand vertical, then would a horizontal
mill be unneccessary?

Thanks!

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:53:58 GMT, Loren Coe
wrote:

in for a penny? how about a pound? the 9x20(?) is very interesting,
too. s/b avail for about 200.00 more than the 7x10(12?) products when
they are both on sale. --Loren

I'm not quite sure I understand your reply. You are referring to a
9x20 and 7x10 made by who? What is s/b?

Brad Brigade wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 01:02:31 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:

very big snip--------
And as for the mill. Grizzly and Harbor Freight have a mill too. Any
comments on those?

I'm hoping to spend about $2000 on a lathe, mill, and tools.

Thanks to everyone for the help, I really, really, reeeeeeally
appreciate it...

Judging from your updated description, I would suggest that it would be a
mistake for you to buy small machines. I strongly encourage you to buy a
knee type mill and an engine lathe, quick change equipped if possible, no
smaller than a 9", with at least 20" between centers, more if possible.
Otherwise, once you have the machines, you'll kick yourself almost daily
because they won't do the size work you want to do.

I wouldn't go overboard on size, especially on the lathe, for large machines
don't do a good job on small parts, but small machines have a difficult time
with average sized work, even if you can get the part in the machine. For
example, you wouldn't want to buy a 17" lathe to make ½" diameter parts, for
which you would need much higher spindle speeds. My personal choice were I
in your position would be a lathe around 12", but with "modern" speeds.
Old machines tend towards slow spindle speeds.

Good luck, sounds like you have some great projects in mind.

Harold

Brad Brigade wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:50:37 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:

Not new price, but perhaps you could find used equipment for that
amount. What you really want for gear cutting is a horizontal universal
mill with a gear driven index head. That'll let you cut helical gears as
well as straight spur gears. Used horizontal mills are often pretty cheap
because most hobbyists want "something like a Bridgeport", even
though a vertical mill often isn't the best choice.

Gary

Horizontal?? Now thats something I never thought of. I've yet to
come across a horizontal mill in all my searching.

If I got a horizontal mill for gear making, would it be any more
annoying to use it for general milling as opposed to a vertical mill?
And if the index head could stand vertical, then would a horizontal
mill be unneccessary?

Thanks!

Yes, extremely annoying, especially if you've learned to use a "drop
spindle" type vertical mill (Bridgeport type). Horizontal mills are rather
limited in function, but do a much better job at certain functions than the
Bridgeport types do. If you had but one choice, you'd not want it to be a
horizontal. Way too limiting.

Harold

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

Yes, extremely annoying, especially if you've learned to use a "drop
spindle" type vertical mill (Bridgeport type). Horizontal mills are rather
limited in function, but do a much better job at certain functions than the
Bridgeport types do. If you had but one choice, you'd not want it to be a
horizontal. Way too limiting.

OK, I'll bite here. Harold I've gotten you know your style
to some degree here, and your peculiar approach to iron oxide.
I've even come to dislike rust a tiny bit myself.

But this horizontal-bashing has got to stop. :^)

There's one thing that a horizontal mill does not have,
and that's a quill. (granted certain deckel machines
do a pretty good imitation, but we're going to leave
out the top end stuff)

Other than that, a horizontal will do nearly everything
a b'port or clone can do, and better. In most cases
it's simply a matter of having the correct tooling,
or being able to turn the job sideways in the mind.

Advantages of horizontal machines:

1) cheaper. Because nobody understands them or appreciates
them, they sell way much cheaper than the similar vertical machine.

2) more rigid. The absence of a sliding quill, and the
size limitation that the quill puts on the spindle and bearings,
means the horizontal has a far much stronger spindle and far
larger bearings. This translates directly into metal removal
ability.

3) shorter height. For the hsm-type with limited headroom
(that's me, with my basement shop) the shorter horizontal
means the machine can fit, where a b'port simply cannot.

4) smaller footprint. There are many smaller horizontal
machines like a hardinge, benchmaster, atlas, nichols, etc
that provide orders of magnitude better performance than
a milling attachment for a lathe, and a factor of two or
three smaller floor footprint.

I personally decided on a hardinge UM mill, because of the
quality of the manufacture, the fact that it takes 5C
tooling, and size fit for my shop. I've since found that
it makes a *great* gap bed lathe for turning stuff that
does not fit in my lathe. Not a good try on a bridgeport.

Sure it's strange. Sure I have to stand sideways on my
head when running it. But with the correct cutter
installed, it will eat a bridgeport for lunch, from a
metal removal standpoint.

For those rare jobs where only a vertical will do, I
did purchase an M head as an acessory. But gets
attached very rarely. Maybe once in 50 jobs or so.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:01:37 -0700, Brad Brigade wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:50:37 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:

Not new price, but perhaps you could find used equipment for that
amount. What you really want for gear cutting is a horizontal universal
mill with a gear driven index head. That'll let you cut helical gears as
well as straight spur gears. Used horizontal mills are often pretty cheap
because most hobbyists want "something like a Bridgeport", even
though a vertical mill often isn't the best choice.

Gary

Horizontal?? Now thats something I never thought of. I've yet to
come across a horizontal mill in all my searching.

They're out there, particularly in industry where their features
make them very desirable. They're rarer among hobbyists, but
several people in this group have them. The universal style is
particularly appealing because the table swivels. This lets you
cut long tapers, something more difficult to do with a Bridgeport
style vertical machine.

If I got a horizontal mill for gear making, would it be any more
annoying to use it for general milling as opposed to a vertical mill?

About the only thing that's more annoying with the horizontal is
trying to use it as a drill press. You'd have to mount the work on
an angle plate and use the table Y advance to drill the hole.

But otherwise, the horizontal works great once you get used to
the idea that the spindle is horizontal and fixed. Even pocketing
work is easier with the horizontal, since the chips tend to naturally
fall out by gravity instead of being recut over and over as they are
in a vertical machine.

Of course a horizontal mill can use end milling cutters mounted
directly in the spindle, or conventional milling cutters mounted on
an arbor. And when you use the arbor and overarm, the horizontal
is much more rigid for its size, letting you take much heavier
roughing cuts, and also letting you gang mill multiple features
in one pass.

And if the index head could stand vertical, then would a horizontal
mill be unneccessary?

Not if you want to be able to cut anything other than a straight spur
gear. Only the horizontal machines have a drive for the index head
that's geared to the table advance, so you can mill a precise helix.

You're pretty much limited to cutting straight spur gears with a
vertical machine. (A CNC machining center could be programmed
to do other than straight gear teeth, but I'm talking about manual
machines.)

The majority of power transmission gearing uses hypoid helical gears,
so you really want to be able to cut those if you want to make gears
on the mill. (There are other ways to make gears, using a gear hobbing
machine, for example.)

Gary

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:36:41 -0700, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
Yes, extremely annoying, especially if you've learned to use a "drop
spindle" type vertical mill (Bridgeport type). Horizontal mills are rather
limited in function, but do a much better job at certain functions than the
Bridgeport types do. If you had but one choice, you'd not want it to be a
horizontal. Way too limiting.

Other than using the mill as a substitute for a drill press, or boring very deep
holes (where the extended knee travel of the vertical type gives you more
travel than the Y axis of the typical horizontal mill), I can't think of any usual
milling operation that's limited by the fact the mill is horizontal rather than vertical.

Gary

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:30:50 -0700, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
I wouldn't go overboard on size, especially on the lathe, for large machines
don't do a good job on small parts, but small machines have a difficult time
with average sized work, even if you can get the part in the machine. For
example, you wouldn't want to buy a 17" lathe to make ½" diameter parts, for
which you would need much higher spindle speeds. My personal choice were I
in your position would be a lathe around 12", but with "modern" speeds.
Old machines tend towards slow spindle speeds.

If he's going to buy new, 14x40 seems to be the standard size, and is certainly
the best value for the dollar with imported machines. But an older US12x36
would certainly be acceptable, or even a 10x24. I wouldn't go smaller than that
though.

Gary

On 18 Oct 2003 11:35:05 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

Yes, extremely annoying, especially if you've learned to use a "drop
spindle" type vertical mill (Bridgeport type). Horizontal mills are rather
limited in function, but do a much better job at certain functions than the
Bridgeport types do. If you had but one choice, you'd not want it to be a
horizontal. Way too limiting.

OK, I'll bite here. Harold I've gotten you know your style
to some degree here, and your peculiar approach to iron oxide.
I've even come to dislike rust a tiny bit myself.

But this horizontal-bashing has got to stop. :^)

There's one thing that a horizontal mill does not have,
and that's a quill. (granted certain deckel machines
do a pretty good imitation, but we're going to leave
out the top end stuff)

Other than that, a horizontal will do nearly everything
a b'port or clone can do, and better. In most cases
it's simply a matter of having the correct tooling,
or being able to turn the job sideways in the mind.

Advantages of horizontal machines:

1) cheaper. Because nobody understands them or appreciates
them, they sell way much cheaper than the similar vertical machine.

2) more rigid. The absence of a sliding quill, and the
size limitation that the quill puts on the spindle and bearings,
means the horizontal has a far much stronger spindle and far
larger bearings. This translates directly into metal removal
ability.

3) shorter height. For the hsm-type with limited headroom
(that's me, with my basement shop) the shorter horizontal
means the machine can fit, where a b'port simply cannot.

4) smaller footprint. There are many smaller horizontal
machines like a hardinge, benchmaster, atlas, nichols, etc
that provide orders of magnitude better performance than
a milling attachment for a lathe, and a factor of two or
three smaller floor footprint.

I personally decided on a hardinge UM mill, because of the
quality of the manufacture, the fact that it takes 5C
tooling, and size fit for my shop. I've since found that
it makes a *great* gap bed lathe for turning stuff that
does not fit in my lathe. Not a good try on a bridgeport.

Sure it's strange. Sure I have to stand sideways on my
head when running it. But with the correct cutter
installed, it will eat a bridgeport for lunch, from a
metal removal standpoint.

For those rare jobs where only a vertical will do, I
did purchase an M head as an acessory. But gets
attached very rarely. Maybe once in 50 jobs or so.

Jim

I agree with Jim. Its only when inside cuts must be made, that a
vertical is handier.

Damn...Im agreeing with Jim again...this madness MUST stop!!!

the horror..the horror..the horror......


Gunner

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle
behind each blade of grass." --Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

Yes, extremely annoying, especially if you've learned to use a "drop
spindle" type vertical mill (Bridgeport type). Horizontal mills are
rather
limited in function, but do a much better job at certain functions than
the
Bridgeport types do. If you had but one choice, you'd not want it to
be a
horizontal. Way too limiting.

OK, I'll bite here. Harold I've gotten you know your style
to some degree here, and your peculiar approach to iron oxide.
I've even come to dislike rust a tiny bit myself.

But this horizontal-bashing has got to stop. :^)

There's one thing that a horizontal mill does not have,
and that's a quill. (granted certain deckel machines
do a pretty good imitation, but we're going to leave
out the top end stuff)

I rest my case! :-)

I ran my small shop for 16 years with nothing but a BP, no horizontal,
though there were a few times that I wished I had one. I agree with you,
for metal removal they have no equal. It almost numbs the mind to watch a
side cutter in chrome-moly cutting a slot 3/4" deep X ½" wide @ 6"/min (or
faster). Yep, that's impressive! You can cut metal faster than you can
haul the chips off. Problem with that is the typical home shop machinist
rarely, if ever, faces a job of that nature. Running side cutters too
fast and feed at a snail's pace is death on them. Life leaves in a hurry
as they scratch away @ .0003" per tooth because seldom do operators run the
machine to capacity. It just looks wrong, so they don't do it. Even some
guys with experience.

I'm not against horizontal machines, it's just that I couldn't have produced
the work I did without a drop spindle machine. That is likely to be true
of almost everyone. To be limited by a horizontal machine alone would not
be a good thing, depending on the nature of the work at hand. Doing the
nature of work we encounter is more difficult on horizontal machines. Been
there, done that. The other rather major problem is that tooling (cutters
and arbors) is far more expensive than end mills are. How much money
would a home shop type operation care to invest in tools that are seldom
used?

I've run the horizontals, including large K&T's, VanNormans, Cincinnati,
etc. Great machines, but for general machining I'd never make one my only
choice. Reason? Same thing you mentioned. One loses too much
flexibility without a drop spindle.

Yeah, I still hate rust. :-)

I forgot to mention. Before I left Utah I purchased a horizontal attachment
for my BP. I've yet to use it, but I'm thrilled to have it.

Harold

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

snip----
Other than that, a horizontal will do nearly everything
a b'port or clone can do, and better. In most cases
it's simply a matter of having the correct tooling,
or being able to turn the job sideways in the mind.


Wish I would have had presence of mind enough to comment on this statement,
too. I've done end mill work with a horizontal machine, and it's likely
one of the toughest of all things to do. I can't speak for anyone but
myself, but when I run machines, a very big part of what's happening is
closely observed by eye. I do not trust that I am where I think I am, I
am constantly looking, with my face close in. I can't think of anything
less convenient than watching a pocket being generated on the far side of a
mill table, where I can't see what's going on. It's also a lot harder to
use your acid brush that way. That's not to say it can't be done, but doing
the same job on a vertical, even without a drop spindle, is far easier and
faster. If you find yourself cutting the same old chips over and over on a
vertical machine, don't you think you're doing something wrong? Spray
mist is great at keeping chips out of pockets, and keeps the cutter well
lubed and cooler.

And "better"? All depends on the job at hand. Again, cut pockets (or
windows) and then lets talk about it. I think you'll find that the only
people that prefer a horizontal for that kind of work are those that don't
have the vertical and they've deluded themselves into thinking they don't
really need a vertical. They're right, they don't, but if they intend to
compete with one, it wouldn't be long until they would.

Keep in mind I'm speaking from the perspective of someone that did a
majority of tooling, with some production as well. My needs may have been
far different from someone that makes a given part time and again, a part
that lends itself well to a horizontal. Making jigs and fixtures that
require hole locations and dowels works very best on a drop spindle mill.
:-)

Harold

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

I'm not against horizontal machines, it's just that I couldn't have produced
the work I did without a drop spindle machine. That is likely to be true
of almost everyone. To be limited by a horizontal machine alone would not
be a good thing, depending on the nature of the work at hand. Doing the
nature of work we encounter is more difficult on horizontal machines. Been
there, done that. The other rather major problem is that tooling (cutters
and arbors) is far more expensive than end mills are. How much money
would a home shop type operation care to invest in tools that are seldom
used?

I use my horizontal mostly with end mills. They fit just fine
in the 5C spindle, I use the same collets as my lathe. One
set fits all.

My real point is, in my shop I've got two choices: either
a horizontal, or no milling machine at all (or a crappy
overpriced milling attachment for a lathe - it would cost me
what I paid for the entire milling machine to buy a milling
attachment for a 10L...) or the horizontal I do have.

It may sound like rationalization, but honestly I've come
to love the hardinge for what it can do. And if I can find
nice newish one, I'm going to try to buy one for here at work,
as well. And the same reasons apply: the machine has a
tiny footprint compared with a b'port, and I have to put
a full sized shop in a vestpocket lab.

The one thing I really miss in a milling machine like that
is a quill, for drilling. I figured that problem out
pretty fast though. I bought a drill press!

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:30:50 -0700, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:

Judging from your updated description, I would suggest that it would be a
mistake for you to buy small machines. I strongly encourage you to buy a
knee type mill and an engine lathe, quick change equipped if possible, no
smaller than a 9", with at least 20" between centers, more if possible.
Otherwise, once you have the machines, you'll kick yourself almost daily
because they won't do the size work you want to do.

I wouldn't go overboard on size, especially on the lathe, for large machines
don't do a good job on small parts, but small machines have a difficult time
with average sized work, even if you can get the part in the machine. For
example, you wouldn't want to buy a 17" lathe to make ½" diameter parts, for
which you would need much higher spindle speeds. My personal choice were I
in your position would be a lathe around 12", but with "modern" speeds.
Old machines tend towards slow spindle speeds.

Good luck, sounds like you have some great projects in mind.

Harold

Well, I do have access to a machine shop with everything I could think
of. However, I work mostly at night, when the place is closed, and
they're not giving me the keys. Also, they usually have the machines
set up to do a specific part for days at a time, and me waltzing in
there and tearing apart the setups every half hour would be quite
annoying. And, most importantly, I have no idea how to use the
machines at the moment, and no one there has the time to screw around
with me all day, teaching me how a lathe and mill works.

Since I worked at the place for a year, you'd think I'd know how to
use the stuff. But since it was all set up for me, I was little more
than a monkey pulling levers at the right time.

Anyway, the point is, I figured if I ever needed to make a big, weird
part (which I thought would be not too often), I DO have access to any
machine I'd ever need. I just won't have access to them for very
long...

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

I'm not against horizontal machines, it's just that I couldn't have
produced
the work I did without a drop spindle machine. That is likely to be
true
of almost everyone. To be limited by a horizontal machine alone would
not
be a good thing, depending on the nature of the work at hand. Doing
the
nature of work we encounter is more difficult on horizontal machines.
Been
there, done that. The other rather major problem is that tooling
(cutters
and arbors) is far more expensive than end mills are. How much money
would a home shop type operation care to invest in tools that are seldom
used?

I use my horizontal mostly with end mills. They fit just fine
in the 5C spindle, I use the same collets as my lathe. One
set fits all.

That's an excellent point, one that may not be valid for those with a
Nichols mill, however. Still, I'd love to have either of them. I'm not
really against the machines.

My real point is, in my shop I've got two choices: either
a horizontal, or no milling machine at all (or a crappy
overpriced milling attachment for a lathe - it would cost me
what I paid for the entire milling machine to buy a milling
attachment for a 10L...) or the horizontal I do have.

Wow! If there's anything I might be against, it would be a milling
attachment for a lathe. Talk about a compromise! I fully agree with you,
Jim.

I think the real point here is what one becomes accustomed to doing. I
might use my O.K. Rubber Welders indexing square toolpost, for example. I
cut my teeth on indexing toolposts, thus I am not a fan of the KDK or Aloris
types, even though I've used them extensively. For me, the work habits
formed are much better suited to the indexing head, and I go far out of my
way to see to it that I use one. Only under protest would I use anything
else. And so it is with drop spindle mills. I recall when I started
working in the mill section at Sperry, there was a Nichols hand mill
available for small part machining. To a man, no one in the plant wanted
to run the damned thing. We had various Gorton mills, Mastermil (I-22),
9-J, a Unimil (sp), and a couple other small vertical Gortons, the model
numbers of which escape me now (and it's only been since 1965! I don't know
what's happening to me, honestly!). We also had other vertical machines,
including Cincinnati, Van Norman vertical/horizontal (head swiveled) and, of
course, several K&T's, a couple equipped with vertical heads that mounted
on the overarms and were driven by the horizontal spindle, plus one dandy
vertical K&T. At any rate, my time was spent, mostly, on the drop
spindle machines. We used them for precision drilling, not only for
milling. Before the missile went into full production, hard tooling (drill
jigs and more) were not built, so we did all drilling either on
multi-spindle drill presses by first laying out the parts, or they were
drilled on mills using the screws for location. Almost all the prototype
missiles were built that way. This was long before digital readout was
available, so I, naturally, still refuse to use a DRO. I've never used one
to this day. At any rate, it was there that my work habits were so well
formed, only to be strengthened by my last place of employment (a job shop
that subbed from the missile industry) and then my own shop. I can't
imagine having a mill that didn't have a drop spindle, not unless I had more
than one mill.

It may sound like rationalization, but honestly I've come
to love the hardinge for what it can do. And if I can find
nice newish one, I'm going to try to buy one for here at work,
as well. And the same reasons apply: the machine has a
tiny footprint compared with a b'port, and I have to put
a full sized shop in a vestpocket lab.

Yep, a perfect example of becoming very familiar with a given machine, and
wanting to have one at your disposal. To this day I'd give my interest in
hell for a Cincinnati #2 centerless grinder, a machine I ran and enjoyed
immensely. Same goes for a #1 B&S universal grinder. I realize there
may be better machines available, especially in the way of the B&S, but to
me they represent the ultimate, if for no other reason, I could make them
sing. In a way, they became my way of self expression at a craft that
seemed to be a natural for me. .

I wish you well in your quest to find another Hardinge, Jim.

The one thing I really miss in a milling machine like that
is a quill, for drilling. I figured that problem out
pretty fast though. I bought a drill press!

Jim

Lots harder to drill holes where you want them, though! Takes a lot more
skill.

Harold

In article ,
Brad Brigade wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:50:37 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:

Not new price, but perhaps you could find used equipment for that
amount. What you really want for gear cutting is a horizontal universal
mill with a gear driven index head. That'll let you cut helical gears as
well as straight spur gears. Used horizontal mills are often pretty cheap
because most hobbyists want "something like a Bridgeport", even
though a vertical mill often isn't the best choice.

Gary

Horizontal?? Now thats something I never thought of. I've yet to
come across a horizontal mill in all my searching.

You'll see them from time to time in eBay auctions, often dirt
cheap. (My Nichols horizontal mill was $200.00 for a 1000 pound machine. :-)

If I got a horizontal mill for gear making, would it be any more
annoying to use it for general milling as opposed to a vertical mill?

Aside from the lack of a quill for quick drilling or plunges,
the other thing which is a bit more difficult is when doing pockets with
end mills. You mount the end mill in the spindle, mount the workpiece
on an angle plate, (unless the pocket is small enough relative to the
overall piece so you can hold the workpiece in a vise), and then mill by
feeding the plunge (depth) with the Y-axis, and the two dimensions of
the pocket are handled with the X-axis and the Z-axis. You can't see
what you are doing from the controls position normally, so you'll want
to set up a mirror to see what is happening to your workpiece,
especially if you are milling to layout lines. But (as has already been
mentioned) the chips just flow out of the pocket with the aid of
gravity.

And if the index head could stand vertical, then would a horizontal
mill be unneccessary?

That doesn't sound right, somehow. That would make the mill's
axis parallel to the center bore of the gear tooth, which would mean
that you would be using tiny end mills to profile mill the teeth --
something which could be done on a CNC machine, perhaps, but it would be
very slow.

Normal setup for gear cutting of a straight spur gear on a
horizontal mill is:

1) Gear tooth milling cutter on horizontal arbor above gear blank.
(You use sets of cutters for each gear tooth pitch -- with a set
of seven cutters to cover the range from a straight rack gear to
the minimum number of teeth practical with that pitch. Each
cutter covers a range of teeth (it is really a compromise, with
the tooth shape being very close for one pitch near the middle
of the range covered, and just almost good enough for the rest
of the range.

2) The gear blank is on a mandrel, and is mounted between centers,
with one center with driving arms in the dividing head, and
another center mounted far enough down the length of the bed to
support the other end of the mandrel.

3) You cut one tooth at a time (multiple passes to get to depth,
depending on hardness of gear blank and your willingness to
accept wear on the gear tooth milling cutter.) then you use the
dividing head to rotate the gear blank to bring the position of
the next tooth into place and repeat the process until you have
all the teeth cut. Each cut is done on the top of the gear
blank. (For a vertical mill, you can use a stub arbor to hold
the cutter, and cut on the front or back of the gear blank, but
you will have less rigidity, since you don't have the arbor
supported at both ends, so you will have to make lighter cuts.
The dividing head is still mounted horizontally.

4) You may then put the mandrel back onto the lathe, and take a
light facing cut on each side of the gear to remove burrs from
the milling process.

If you have a universal horizontal mill (the table rotates
relative to the cutting axis), you can cut gears with angled teeth.

There are horizontal milling adaptors for vertical spindle
mills, and usually they will accept an arbor supported at both ends,
with the second end's support clamping to the ram on which the head is
mounted. These are *not* nearly as rigid as a proper horizontal milling
machine, but more so than an unsupported stub arbor..

There are also right-angle heads for horizontal milling machines
to make them sort of act like a vertical spindle milling machine. I
have one for my Nichols mill, and it is perhaps a bit more usable there
than on most horizontal mills, because the head on a Nichols mill is
mounted on a set of vertical dovetails, and can be moved up and down via
a lever connected to a sector gear. This duplicates the action of the
quill, except perhaps with less feel.

Note: For one-off milling of a spur gear, it is possible to set up a
cutter ground from a HSS lathe tool blank rotated in a
fly-cutter style setup. You have to have a good eye to grind
the tooth profile into the HSS tool bit, and you have to feed
much more slowly, as you have only one tooth per revolution,
instead of eight or so.

Also -- note that the above is how a shop may produce one or two
special gears if they have to. Commercial production of tears is done
with a gear hob (looks like a cross between a thread on the OD of a
cylinder, and a milling cutter). It is used in combination with a
system for rotating the gear blank at the right speed in synchronization
with the hob, and it produces the right profile for any (reasonable)
tooth count, because of the way the tool and gear rotate relative to
each other, instead of needing a separate hob for each tooth count.
(You do need a separate hob for each gear tooth pitch, just as you do
for the above milling scenario.

It is possible to set up a hob and a gear-driven dividing head
coupled to the spindle rotation -- but it is not a simple job.

Note that most of this (other than the cutting a straight-tooth
spur gear gear on a plain horizontal mill, is from what I have gathered
reading, not form personal experience.

Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

In article ,
Brad Brigade wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:53:58 GMT, Loren Coe
wrote:

in for a penny? how about a pound? the 9x20(?) is very interesting,
too. s/b avail for about 200.00 more than the 7x10(12?) products when
they are both on sale. --Loren

I'm not quite sure I understand your reply. You are referring to a
9x20 and 7x10 made by who? What is s/b?

In context, "s/b" probably means "should be", not "South Bend",
which is likely what comes to mind first in a metalworking situation.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

Lots harder to drill holes where you want them, though! Takes a lot more
skill.

I don't really do any precision work at home. If I
want to get holes close, I either take the hit, and do
them with the infeed on the hardinge, or simply
spot them with a centerdrill that way, and then
move over to the drill press and pick them up
that way. It's not a jig borer but for what I do
at home it suffices.

Jim

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