For gasolene, for an old sports car.

The car is unusual enough that a new tank is not an option, plus I'd like to
have a bigger one, and have interior baffles (original is just a box). The
original is made from sheet steel.

I was thinking aluminium, but then thought that that might crack; stainless,
but then I had to pay huge$ for the stainless liner for our chimney (can 30
feet of 6" pipe really cost over $1000?); plain steel, but it might rust...

Opinions?

Marine fuel tanks are commonly made of aluminum. There are several
places that will do custom tanks with all the proper fittings and testing.

jtaylor wrote:
For gasolene, for an old sports car.

The car is unusual enough that a new tank is not an option, plus I'd like to
have a bigger one, and have interior baffles (original is just a box). The
original is made from sheet steel.

I was thinking aluminium, but then thought that that might crack; stainless,
but then I had to pay huge$ for the stainless liner for our chimney (can 30
feet of 6" pipe really cost over $1000?); plain steel, but it might rust...

Opinions?

"jtaylor" wrote in message
et.ca...
For gasolene, for an old sports car.

SNIP

Fuel "Cells" are generally made specifically for this type of restoration or
high performance vehicles. They look plastic but I'd guess they are
multi-wall units and may contain titanium. ...Well.... Maybe not Titanium.

--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
(908) 542-0244
http://www.AutoDrill.com
http://www.Multi-Drill.com

V8013-R

Hey J,

Actually, 5052 H-32 sheet aluminum is a recommended product for fuel
tanks. Comes in at least .032", .040", and .050" standard.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:58:08 -0300, "jtaylor"
wrote:

For gasolene, for an old sports car.

The car is unusual enough that a new tank is not an option, plus I'd like to
have a bigger one, and have interior baffles (original is just a box). The
original is made from sheet steel.

I was thinking aluminium, but then thought that that might crack; stainless,
but then I had to pay huge$ for the stainless liner for our chimney (can 30
feet of 6" pipe really cost over $1000?); plain steel, but it might rust...

Opinions?

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:58:08 -0300, "jtaylor"
wrote:

For gasolene, for an old sports car.

The car is unusual enough that a new tank is not an option, plus I'd like to
have a bigger one, and have interior baffles (original is just a box). The
original is made from sheet steel.

I was thinking aluminium, but then thought that that might crack; stainless,
but then I had to pay huge$ for the stainless liner for our chimney (can 30
feet of 6" pipe really cost over $1000?); plain steel, but it might rust...

Opinions?

I'd be using stainless - but I have relatively good source of surplus
stainless sheet- just have to check regularly to see that they have,
and a good friend who welds the stuff all day.

Dito for aluminum - my second choice.

jtaylor wrote:
For gasolene, for an old sports car.

The car is unusual enough that a new tank is not an option, plus I'd like to
have a bigger one, and have interior baffles (original is just a box). The
original is made from sheet steel.

I was thinking aluminium, but then thought that that might crack; stainless,
but then I had to pay huge$ for the stainless liner for our chimney (can 30
feet of 6" pipe really cost over $1000?); plain steel, but it might rust...

Opinions?



I wouldn't trust my welding to make a fuel tank/cell unless I was as
good as say, Ernie. Your safest option is to purchase a racing fuel cell.

--
Steve Walker
(remove wallet to reply)

Exactly.
Consider do you know the baffling concept ? where and how to put the
crazy - but works - swinging pot to measure the amount of gas... electricity
in the gas tank.

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Steve Walker wrote:
jtaylor wrote:

For gasolene, for an old sports car.

The car is unusual enough that a new tank is not an option, plus I'd
like to
have a bigger one, and have interior baffles (original is just a
box). The
original is made from sheet steel.

I was thinking aluminium, but then thought that that might crack;
stainless,
but then I had to pay huge$ for the stainless liner for our chimney
(can 30
feet of 6" pipe really cost over $1000?); plain steel, but it might
rust...

Opinions?



I wouldn't trust my welding to make a fuel tank/cell unless I was as
good as say, Ernie. Your safest option is to purchase a racing fuel cell.


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
Exactly.
Consider do you know the baffling concept ? where and how to put the
crazy - but works - swinging pot to measure the amount of gas...
electricity
in the gas tank.


What are you talking about?

For gasolene, for an old sports car.

The car is unusual enough that a new tank is not an option, plus I'd like to
have a bigger one, and have interior baffles (original is just a box). The
original is made from sheet steel.

I was thinking aluminium, but then thought that that might crack; stainless,
but then I had to pay huge$ for the stainless liner for our chimney (can 30
feet of 6" pipe really cost over $1000?); plain steel, but it might rust...

Opinions?


What about sheet brass? Solder together - no sparking, no rusting,
etc.?
Ken.

The little gismo that sends a signal to the gas gage. It is a pot that
connects to the + and - supply and the center wiper is on the float.
You know - when you run out of gas and the float goes all the way down
and rattles a little on the metal...

The baffles are to keep giant waves from surging side to side in
high G turns. They chop waves up to quell movement as a mass.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



jtaylor wrote:
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...

Exactly.
Consider do you know the baffling concept ? where and how to put the
crazy - but works - swinging pot to measure the amount of gas...

electricity

in the gas tank.



What are you talking about?



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
The little gismo that sends a signal to the gas gage. It is a pot that
connects to the + and - supply and the center wiper is on the float.
You know - when you run out of gas and the float goes all the way down
and rattles a little on the metal...

I'm using a selsyn, but yes, there is a swinging arm...were you merely
asking to make sure I didn't place a baffle in the way of the arm's arc?


The baffles are to keep giant waves from surging side to side in
high G turns. They chop waves up to quell movement as a mass.


I knew that. On the tank as it is, when full, fuel spills out the filler on
left turns (driver's handbook warns about it).

That little wirewound potentiometer inside the fuel tank varies
current flow to the gas gauge to indicate fuel level, and most such
systems are accurate to about 30%. That little pot makes sparks at
times, inside the tank, and isn't sealed against fuel. The theory is
that fuel vapours in the tank are too strong (more than 8:1) to burn.
Works OK unless the tank is drained and left open and the
concentrations get low enough to go boom. "Empty" tanks can be
dangerous.
Our airplanes have the same setup. Larger aircraft have
capacitance fuel level systems, with no moving parts, and are much more
accurate.
If I was making a tank for an automobile I would use plain old
hot-rolled 20 gauge steel sheet, TIG or MIG welded. Epoxy paint on the
outside for corrosion resistance.

Dan

Yeah, tell that to TWA FLight 800.


wrote in message
oups.com...
That little wirewound potentiometer inside the fuel tank varies
current flow to the gas gauge to indicate fuel level, and most such
systems are accurate to about 30%. That little pot makes sparks at
times, inside the tank, and isn't sealed against fuel. The theory is
that fuel vapours in the tank are too strong (more than 8:1) to burn.
Works OK unless the tank is drained and left open and the
concentrations get low enough to go boom. "Empty" tanks can be
dangerous.
Our airplanes have the same setup. Larger aircraft have
capacitance fuel level systems, with no moving parts, and are much more
accurate.
If I was making a tank for an automobile I would use plain old
hot-rolled 20 gauge steel sheet, TIG or MIG welded. Epoxy paint on the
outside for corrosion resistance.

Dan

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:17:09 -0400, Tony wrote:
Yeah, tell that to TWA FLight 800.


Excuse, please, but what does insulation worn off of wiring have to do
with epoxy paint on aluminum gas tanks?

Oh, and when you top-post as you have done, it makes quoting with
context inconvenient. Is that your intention?

I'd use external strain gages or a load cell on the bottom support for gas measurement.
Martin [ but they cost more and won't be considered ]
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



wrote:
That little wirewound potentiometer inside the fuel tank varies
current flow to the gas gauge to indicate fuel level, and most such
systems are accurate to about 30%. That little pot makes sparks at
times, inside the tank, and isn't sealed against fuel. The theory is
that fuel vapours in the tank are too strong (more than 8:1) to burn.
Works OK unless the tank is drained and left open and the
concentrations get low enough to go boom. "Empty" tanks can be
dangerous.
Our airplanes have the same setup. Larger aircraft have
capacitance fuel level systems, with no moving parts, and are much more
accurate.
If I was making a tank for an automobile I would use plain old
hot-rolled 20 gauge steel sheet, TIG or MIG welded. Epoxy paint on the
outside for corrosion resistance.

Dan


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

In article 1126720668.733565.284590
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
says...
That little wirewound potentiometer inside the fuel tank varies
current flow to the gas gauge to indicate fuel level, and most such
systems are accurate to about 30%. That little pot makes sparks at
times, inside the tank, and isn't sealed against fuel. The theory is
that fuel vapours in the tank are too strong (more than 8:1) to burn.
Works OK unless the tank is drained and left open and the
concentrations get low enough to go boom. "Empty" tanks can be
dangerous.


I'd expect that fuel gages are designed along the lines of
the "intrinsically safe" sensors that are used in explosive
atmospheres in industrial settings. This is accomplished by
limiting the current, voltage and energy storage
(inductance, capacitance) in the device to a level that's
incapable of causing ignition.

Ned Simmons

In article , Ned Simmons
says...

I'd expect that fuel gages are designed along the lines of
the "intrinsically safe" sensors that are used in explosive
atmospheres in industrial settings. This is accomplished by
limiting the current, voltage and energy storage
(inductance, capacitance) in the device to a level that's
incapable of causing ignition.

Nope. They're just scratchy, sparky wires like he said.

Also they put dc brush motors in fuel tanks. Immersed in
gas to lubricate them. Scary but it works.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:41:27 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

I'd use external strain gages or a load cell on the bottom support for gas measurement.
Martin [ but they cost more and won't be considered ]
Martin Eastburn
Differential pressure guage, from top vent to fuel outlet reads fuel
column hight quite accurately. The sensors are pricy from "prime"
suppliers, but I've picked up sufficient quantity for my use, brand
new surplus, for a VERY reasonable price.

In article ,
says...
In article , Ned Simmons
says...

I'd expect that fuel gages are designed along the lines of
the "intrinsically safe" sensors that are used in explosive
atmospheres in industrial settings. This is accomplished by
limiting the current, voltage and energy storage
(inductance, capacitance) in the device to a level that's
incapable of causing ignition.

Nope. They're just scratchy, sparky wires like he said.

A scratchy, sparky instrument may still be intrinsically
safe as long as the energy available is insufficient to
ignite the flammable atmosphere, i.e., little sparks are
OK.


Also they put dc brush motors in fuel tanks. Immersed in
gas to lubricate them. Scary but it works.


Yeah, I worked on the automation for the powder metal
gerotors in an early Bosch submersible fuel pump. Freaked
me out til I realized the motor is always supposed to be
submerged. But what happens when you run out of fuel? A
fuel gage can be designed to operate with limited current -
I think the limit is in the neighborhood of 1-10mA for most
intrinsically safe stuff at low DC voltages - but of course
that's not going to run a fuel pump. Is it assumed the pump
will always be submerged, or is it really that difficult to
get the vapor in the tank within explosive limits? If so,
can you weld with abandon on a tank as long as it's got a
bit of gasoline in it?

Ned Simmons

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
In article , Ned
Simmons
says...

I'd expect that fuel gages are designed along the lines of
the "intrinsically safe" sensors that are used in explosive
atmospheres in industrial settings. This is accomplished by
limiting the current, voltage and energy storage
(inductance, capacitance) in the device to a level that's
incapable of causing ignition.

Nope. They're just scratchy, sparky wires like he said.

A scratchy, sparky instrument may still be intrinsically
safe as long as the energy available is insufficient to
ignite the flammable atmosphere, i.e., little sparks are
OK.


Also they put dc brush motors in fuel tanks. Immersed in
gas to lubricate them. Scary but it works.


Yeah, I worked on the automation for the powder metal
gerotors in an early Bosch submersible fuel pump. Freaked
me out til I realized the motor is always supposed to be
submerged. But what happens when you run out of fuel? A
fuel gage can be designed to operate with limited current -
I think the limit is in the neighborhood of 1-10mA for most
intrinsically safe stuff at low DC voltages - but of course
that's not going to run a fuel pump. Is it assumed the pump
will always be submerged, or is it really that difficult to
get the vapor in the tank within explosive limits? If so,
can you weld with abandon on a tank as long as it's got a
bit of gasoline in it?

Ned Simmons


No problem with pumps or gauges in the tank since the fuel vapor level
is so high it will not ignite. Just not enough air in the tank to cause
problems. As to welding on tanks I do it a lot BUT this is after they
are evacuated using inert gas and flushing it real well.
Every fuel gauge I have seen uses nothing more than a variable resistor
element with an open wiper. Most are set up on the ground side instead
of on the positive side of the system.



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

I'd use external strain gages or a load cell on the bottom support for gas measurement.

The jarring around on rough roads or the changes caused by
acceleration and deceleration, or for an airplane, in rough air or
during maneuvers, would result in wildly varying readings that would
need averaging circuitry. Further, the tank mounting would have to be
set up so that the tank's weight is all on the strain gauges, without
interference from clamp or strap tension, and the tank would be
difficult to mount securely. I suppose a double bottom with the strain
gauge between the two layers might work.
The capacitance-type gauges use the dieletric constants of air
and fuel. They're different, and the device's capacitance changes as
the fuel level changes. Several of them spread across the tank are
connected together and the capacitances summed to get a much more
accurate picture of the fuel quantity than a single-point sensor can
give. No moving parts, very light and reliable.


Dan

On 16 Sep 2005 07:43:32 -0700, wrote:

I'd use external strain gages or a load cell on the bottom support for gas measurement.

The jarring around on rough roads or the changes caused by
acceleration and deceleration, or for an airplane, in rough air or
during maneuvers, would result in wildly varying readings that would
need averaging circuitry. Further, the tank mounting would have to be
set up so that the tank's weight is all on the strain gauges, without
interference from clamp or strap tension, and the tank would be
difficult to mount securely. I suppose a double bottom with the strain
gauge between the two layers might work.
The capacitance-type gauges use the dieletric constants of air
and fuel. They're different, and the device's capacitance changes as
the fuel level changes. Several of them spread across the tank are
connected together and the capacitances summed to get a much more
accurate picture of the fuel quantity than a single-point sensor can
give. No moving parts, very light and reliable.


Dan
And very accurate if the makeup of the fuel is consistent - like
AvGas. Pretty dodgy on pump gas which can be all over the map,
contents wise.

Granted -
however gages have to have amplifiers and they have integration amps to smooth the waves.

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



wrote:
I'd use external strain gages or a load cell on the bottom support for gas measurement.


The jarring around on rough roads or the changes caused by
acceleration and deceleration, or for an airplane, in rough air or
during maneuvers, would result in wildly varying readings that would
need averaging circuitry. Further, the tank mounting would have to be
set up so that the tank's weight is all on the strain gauges, without
interference from clamp or strap tension, and the tank would be
difficult to mount securely. I suppose a double bottom with the strain
gauge between the two layers might work.
The capacitance-type gauges use the dieletric constants of air
and fuel. They're different, and the device's capacitance changes as
the fuel level changes. Several of them spread across the tank are
connected together and the capacitances summed to get a much more
accurate picture of the fuel quantity than a single-point sensor can
give. No moving parts, very light and reliable.


Dan


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Ned Simmons wrote:



Yeah, I worked on the automation for the powder metal
gerotors in an early Bosch submersible fuel pump. Freaked
me out til I realized the motor is always supposed to be
submerged. But what happens when you run out of fuel? A
fuel gage can be designed to operate with limited current -
I think the limit is in the neighborhood of 1-10mA for most
intrinsically safe stuff at low DC voltages - but of course
that's not going to run a fuel pump. Is it assumed the pump
will always be submerged, or is it really that difficult to
get the vapor in the tank within explosive limits? If so,
can you weld with abandon on a tank as long as it's got a
bit of gasoline in it?

Ned Simmons

It's pretty common practice to weld on fuel oil tanks by filling them
all the way and weld a quick patch on. As long as your floor is clean
you don't have to worry much about a fire, and if it does burn it'll
advance quite slowly.

Gasoline, being as volatile as it is, will burn on a clean floor and
spread as rapidly as we all know it can. A pint of fuel oil on the floor
below where you're welding is no big deal, a pint of gasoline would be
exciting, especially if you burned a hole below the liquid in the tank.

I've had very good results welding gas tanks by rinsing them out with a
few gallons of hot water and a big squirt of dishsoap. If you're
feeling careful, a hard purge with CO2 before welding is a good idea.
The good thing about dishsoap in the tank is that once you fill it gas
the leftover water will mix with the gas and go on through.

I was cutting scrap one day at a little scrapyard, heard a mighty
hissing behind me, it really made me jump. I looked and there was a
flat-type GM fuel tank standing with the neck up, orange flame standing
about two inches out the pipe with a thick black smoke streaming off the
flame. The guy had said they had all the tanks picked up, I never saw it
in the weeds.. really put the respect of gas tanks into me.

Saw another that a friend set off, the thing looked like a beach ball,
remarkably round shape to it. Lucky guy that day.

Another friend of mine had a truck tank (gas) that someone had robbed
the cap from get a spark in it while he was cutting on a truck next to
it. It hosed his back with blazing rancid old gas, he had Carharts on
and got to the hose about 20' away and ran it down his back.. went home
and got in the tub, realized he was getting seriously uncommon amounts
of skin peeling off the backs of his legs, went to the hospital and
spent some ****ty length of time laying on his belly, month and a half
or two months, I forget now. Ugly scars on the calves, thighs, ass, up
his back, didn't get the backs of the knees or right below his ass.. he
said his jeans didn't even scorch.

I got heaps of respect for gas tanks and empty fuel oil tanks and empty
barrels.. the whole universe of empty stuff.

John