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#1
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Does The Buck REALLY Stops Here?
It is becoming more and more apparent that the Federal Government has
REALLY dropped the ball on Katrina. Perhaps some of them should spend a few days stranded on a roof top with no water/food/toilet waiting for someone to notice them. The question.... Should government officials be held criminally liable for the unfolding nightmare we are witnessing hour by hour? If it doesn't happen, it damn well should. One very ticked off American, TMT Newsview: Politicians Failed Storm Victims By RON FOURNIER, AP Political Writer Thu Sep 1, 9:18 PM ET At every turn, political leaders failed Katrina's victims. They didn't strengthen the levees. They ceded the streets to marauding looters. They left dead bodies to rot or bloat. Thousands suffered or died for lack of water, food and hope. Who's at fault? There's plenty of blame to go around - the White House, Congress, federal agencies, local governments, police and even residents of the Gulf Coast who refused orders to evacuate. But all the finger-pointing misses the point: Politicians and the people they lead too often ignore danger signs until a crisis hits. It wasn't a secret that levees built to keep New Orleans from flooding could not withstand a major hurricane, but government leaders never found the money to fully shore up the network of earthen, steel and concrete barriers. Both the Bush and Clinton administrations proposed budgets that low-balled the needs. Local politicians grabbed whatever money they could and declared victory. And the public didn't exactly demand tax increases to pay for flood-control and hurricane-protection projects. Just last year, the Army Corps of Engineers sought $105 million for hurricane and flood programs in New Orleans. The White House slashed the request to about $40 million. Congress finally approved $42.2 million, less than half of the agency's request. Yet the lawmakers and Bush agreed to a $286.4 billion pork-laden highway bill that included more than 6,000 pet projects for lawmakers. Congress spent money on dust control for Arkansas roads, a warehouse on the Erie Canal and a $231 million bridge to a small, uninhabited Alaskan island. How could Washington spend $231 million on a bridge to nowhere - and not find $42 million for hurricane and flood projects in New Orleans? It's a matter of power and politics. Alaska is represented by Republican Rep. Don Young (news, bio, voting record), chairman of the House Transportation Committee, and Republican Sen. Ted Stevens (news, bio, voting record), a senior member of the all-important Senate Appropriations Committee. Louisiana's delegation holds far less sway. Once the hurricane hit, relief trickled into the Gulf Coast. Even Federal Emergency Management Agency director Michael Brown, whose agency is in charge of disaster response, pronounced the initial results unacceptable. The hurricane was the first major test of FEMA since it became part of the Homeland Security Department, a massive new bureaucracy that many feared would make the well-respected FEMA another sluggish federal agency. Looting soon broke out as local police stood by. Some police didn't want to stop people from getting badly needed food and water. Others seemed to be overwhelmed. Thousands of National Guard troops were ordered to the Gulf Coast, but their ranks have been drastically thinned by the war in Iraq. On top of all this, Katrina is one of the worst natural disasters ever to hit the United States. The best leaders running the most efficient agencies would have been sharply challenged. "Look at all they've had to deal with," former President Clinton told CNN. "I'm telling you, nobody every thought it would happen like this." That's not true. Experts had predicted for years that a major hurricane would eventually hit New Orleans, swamping the levees and filling the bowl-shaped city with polluted water. Yet even Bush insisted that nobody anticipated the breach of the levees in a serious storm. The politicians are doing what they do in time of crisis - shifting the blame. "The truth will speak for itself," Sen. Mary Landrieu (news, bio, voting record), D-La., said of potential lapses by government. Later, her office blamed the White House for budget cuts. If it's not the Republicans' fault, perhaps some in Washington would like to blame New Orleans itself. House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., questioned whether a city that lies below sea level should be rebuilt. "That doesn't make sense to me," he said. But for anybody living - or dying - in the devastated region, there are far too many villains to name. "We're out here like pure animals. We don't have help," the Rev. Issac Clark, 68, said outside the New Orleans Convention Center. Robin Lovin, ethics professor at Southern Methodist University in Dallas, said it's too convenient to blame one branch of government when they are all, at some level, failing people. From Watergate to Clinton's impeachment, governmental institutions have disappointed the public. "Bush, Congress, the mayor - each of them are symptoms of a bigger problem, that we don't have accountability for disasters or challenges of this scale," Lovin said. "That's all the public wants in trying times - accountability." Thus, Americans are doing what people do when government lets them down - they're turning to each other. Donations are pouring into charities. Internet sites are being used to find relatives. Residents of far-off states are opening their homes to victims. The community spirit is reminiscent of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks. So is the second-guessing. It will happen again after the next crisis. You've heard the warnings: a cataclysmic California earthquake, another terrorist strike, a flu pandemic, a nuclear plant meltdown, a tsunami, the failure to address mounting U.S. debt - and on and on. Will the public and its leaders be better prepared next time? |
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I, for one, agree with you, that there is serious negligence - but, sadly,
this is exactly what we voted for, we the insightful people of the united states - we knew that this administration valued ideology over fact at the last election - disregarding the clear analysis by FEMA that this was a highly likely event is just one example of such denial. What distresses me even more than the sheer incompetence and hubris of the administration though, is the looting, raping, and general pilaging reported to be going on - it's one thing to be hungry and thirsty and to break into a grocery store for food and water, it's another thing to break into department stores to steal guns, and jewlery stores, and ...... When the mayor of the city diverts police from rescue to law enforcement, we have a major breakdown of the whole society. "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com... It is becoming more and more apparent that the Federal Government has REALLY dropped the ball on Katrina. Perhaps some of them should spend a few days stranded on a roof top with no water/food/toilet waiting for someone to notice them. The question.... Should government officials be held criminally liable for the unfolding nightmare we are witnessing hour by hour? If it doesn't happen, it damn well should. One very ticked off American, TMT Newsview: Politicians Failed Storm Victims By RON FOURNIER, AP Political Writer Thu Sep 1, 9:18 PM ET At every turn, political leaders failed Katrina's victims. They didn't strengthen the levees. They ceded the streets to marauding looters. They left dead bodies to rot or bloat. Thousands suffered or died for lack of water, food and hope. Who's at fault? There's plenty of blame to go around - the White House, Congress, federal agencies, local governments, police and even residents of the Gulf Coast who refused orders to evacuate. But all the finger-pointing misses the point: Politicians and the people they lead too often ignore danger signs until a crisis hits. It wasn't a secret that levees built to keep New Orleans from flooding could not withstand a major hurricane, but government leaders never found the money to fully shore up the network of earthen, steel and concrete barriers. Both the Bush and Clinton administrations proposed budgets that low-balled the needs. Local politicians grabbed whatever money they could and declared victory. And the public didn't exactly demand tax increases to pay for flood-control and hurricane-protection projects. Just last year, the Army Corps of Engineers sought $105 million for hurricane and flood programs in New Orleans. The White House slashed the request to about $40 million. Congress finally approved $42.2 million, less than half of the agency's request. Yet the lawmakers and Bush agreed to a $286.4 billion pork-laden highway bill that included more than 6,000 pet projects for lawmakers. Congress spent money on dust control for Arkansas roads, a warehouse on the Erie Canal and a $231 million bridge to a small, uninhabited Alaskan island. How could Washington spend $231 million on a bridge to nowhere - and not find $42 million for hurricane and flood projects in New Orleans? It's a matter of power and politics. Alaska is represented by Republican Rep. Don Young (news, bio, voting record), chairman of the House Transportation Committee, and Republican Sen. Ted Stevens (news, bio, voting record), a senior member of the all-important Senate Appropriations Committee. Louisiana's delegation holds far less sway. Once the hurricane hit, relief trickled into the Gulf Coast. Even Federal Emergency Management Agency director Michael Brown, whose agency is in charge of disaster response, pronounced the initial results unacceptable. The hurricane was the first major test of FEMA since it became part of the Homeland Security Department, a massive new bureaucracy that many feared would make the well-respected FEMA another sluggish federal agency. Looting soon broke out as local police stood by. Some police didn't want to stop people from getting badly needed food and water. Others seemed to be overwhelmed. Thousands of National Guard troops were ordered to the Gulf Coast, but their ranks have been drastically thinned by the war in Iraq. On top of all this, Katrina is one of the worst natural disasters ever to hit the United States. The best leaders running the most efficient agencies would have been sharply challenged. "Look at all they've had to deal with," former President Clinton told CNN. "I'm telling you, nobody every thought it would happen like this." That's not true. Experts had predicted for years that a major hurricane would eventually hit New Orleans, swamping the levees and filling the bowl-shaped city with polluted water. Yet even Bush insisted that nobody anticipated the breach of the levees in a serious storm. The politicians are doing what they do in time of crisis - shifting the blame. "The truth will speak for itself," Sen. Mary Landrieu (news, bio, voting record), D-La., said of potential lapses by government. Later, her office blamed the White House for budget cuts. If it's not the Republicans' fault, perhaps some in Washington would like to blame New Orleans itself. House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., questioned whether a city that lies below sea level should be rebuilt. "That doesn't make sense to me," he said. But for anybody living - or dying - in the devastated region, there are far too many villains to name. "We're out here like pure animals. We don't have help," the Rev. Issac Clark, 68, said outside the New Orleans Convention Center. Robin Lovin, ethics professor at Southern Methodist University in Dallas, said it's too convenient to blame one branch of government when they are all, at some level, failing people. From Watergate to Clinton's impeachment, governmental institutions have disappointed the public. "Bush, Congress, the mayor - each of them are symptoms of a bigger problem, that we don't have accountability for disasters or challenges of this scale," Lovin said. "That's all the public wants in trying times - accountability." Thus, Americans are doing what people do when government lets them down - they're turning to each other. Donations are pouring into charities. Internet sites are being used to find relatives. Residents of far-off states are opening their homes to victims. The community spirit is reminiscent of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks. So is the second-guessing. It will happen again after the next crisis. You've heard the warnings: a cataclysmic California earthquake, another terrorist strike, a flu pandemic, a nuclear plant meltdown, a tsunami, the failure to address mounting U.S. debt - and on and on. Will the public and its leaders be better prepared next time? |
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Like this....
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/hurricane...kxBHNlYwN0bQ-- New Orleans' top emergency management official called that effort a "national disgrace" and questioned when reinforcements would actually reach the increasingly lawless city. About 15,000 to 20,000 people who had taken shelter at New Orleans convention center grew ever more hostile after waiting for buses for days amid the filth and the dead. Police Chief Eddie Compass said there was such a crush around a squad of 88 officers that they retreated when they went in to check out reports of assaults. "We have individuals who are getting raped, we have individuals who are getting beaten," Compass said. "Tourists are walking in that direction and they are getting preyed upon." Col. Henry Whitehorn, chief of the Louisiana State Police, said he heard of numerous instances of New Orleans police officers - many of whom from flooded areas - turning in their badges. "They indicated that they had lost everything and didn't feel that it was worth them going back to take fire from looters and losing their lives," Whitehorn said. |
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#4
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On 1 Sep 2005 22:05:18 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote: It is becoming more and more apparent that the Federal Government has REALLY dropped the ball on Katrina. How so? Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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#5
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On 1 Sep 2005 22:05:18 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote: Just last year, the Army Corps of Engineers sought $105 million for hurricane and flood programs in New Orleans. The White House slashed the request to about $40 million. Congress finally approved $42.2 million, less than half of the agency's request. Yet the lawmakers and Bush agreed to a $286.4 billion pork-laden highway bill that included more than 6,000 pet projects for lawmakers. Congress spent money on dust control for Arkansas roads, a warehouse on the Erie Canal and a $231 million bridge to a small, uninhabited Alaskan island. How could Washington spend $231 million on a bridge to nowhere - and not find $42 million for hurricane and flood projects in New Orleans? It's a matter of power and politics. "Actually if you looked at the actual cut it was for general flood control for the entire United States and was loaded down with so much pork that the pig couldn't float. Hell, Idaho lost out on a Corps of Engineer flood control project of making bike paths along he Snake river from Idaho Falls to Caldwell, about 150 miles. "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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#6
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On 1 Sep 2005 22:27:08 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote: Like this.... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/hurricane...kxBHNlYwN0bQ-- New Orleans' top emergency management official called that effort a "national disgrace" and questioned when reinforcements would actually reach the increasingly lawless city. About 15,000 to 20,000 people who had taken shelter at New Orleans convention center grew ever more hostile after waiting for buses for days amid the filth and the dead. Police Chief Eddie Compass said there was such a crush around a squad of 88 officers that they retreated when they went in to check out reports of assaults. "We have individuals who are getting raped, we have individuals who are getting beaten," Compass said. "Tourists are walking in that direction and they are getting preyed upon." Col. Henry Whitehorn, chief of the Louisiana State Police, said he heard of numerous instances of New Orleans police officers - many of whom from flooded areas - turning in their badges. "They indicated that they had lost everything and didn't feel that it was worth them going back to take fire from looters and losing their lives," Whitehorn said. So much for the oaths of the members of one of the most corrupt police departments in the United States. I suspect..they couldnt get any graft anymore..so they quit. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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#7
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"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com... It is becoming more and more apparent that the Federal Government has REALLY dropped the ball on Katrina. No, the ball was dropped 40 years ago when the government passed the National Flood Insurance Program and created FEMA and made it public policy to cover the losses of people and banks when houses were built in flood plains (ever wonder why they call it that?). This problem occurs every couple of years and cost billions of dollars each time because the government didn't outright ban new construction in flood plains. Every couple of years my insurance company calls me to bring to my attention that I don't have flood coverage on my house. My response is always, "I don't need it because I'm not stupid enough to live in a flood plain." The alternative was to create building codes to handle the problem. New Orleans could have EASILY passed a building code that required all buildings to have a concrete block first floor (required to remain uninhabited space) to get the main structure out of harm's way. And to jack up all existing buildings. Did they do that? No. Any coastal community could pass building codes to make hurricane proof buildings. Did they do that? No. Why? Because the codes would "make housing unaffordable" and "hurt the local economy". My boss was telling me a story once of when he lived near Roanoke, Virginia. One of his coworkers found a nice lot down by the river. The guy goes to the Corps of Engineers and asks them to tell him what is the abolutely worst possible flood that could happen and they gave him the numbers. Went and built a little hill in the middle of the property and proceeded to build a house on it. Needless to say, everyone thought he was out of his mind for spending all that money and effort. A couple years later - big flood. My boss says saw his coworker's house as the news chopper was flying over the river showing flooded house, flooded house, flooded house, house on a little hill, flooded house...... Just last year, the Army Corps of Engineers sought $105 million for hurricane and flood programs in New Orleans. The White House slashed the request to about $40 million. Congress finally approved $42.2 million, less than half of the agency's request. There's 1.3 million people in New Orleans so they could have made up the difference. That's $31 each to spend THEIR money to protect THEIR property. Did they do that? No. I just spent three days working and sweating my ass off (plus $500 in hired labor) cutting down three huge, dead pine trees that were within range of my garage because I didn't want my property damaged in a storm. Guess the thing to do nowadays is to wait until the trees crushed my garage and then stand there with tears running down my face saying, "Woe is me". That's not true. Experts had predicted for years that a major hurricane would eventually hit New Orleans, swamping the levees and filling the bowl-shaped city with polluted water. Yet even Bush insisted that nobody anticipated the breach of the levees in a serious storm. Experts? Anyone with half a brain could have seen it coming. I wonder what the future holds for this country when everyone thinks that taking care of them is someone else's responsibility. Steve. |
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#8
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No disrespect intended Gunner but I think you need to spend a few days
on a roof in New Orleans with no water and food and then reconsider the subject....I think your opinion would change. The Feds HAVE dropped the ball BIG TIME. I see that the White House has now decided that maybe they should make a quick trip to New Orleans for PR. Meanwhile New Orleans burns... TMT === Depot Explodes Over Lawless New Orleans By ALLEN G. BREED, Associated Press Writer An explosion at a chemical depot jolted residents awake early Friday, illuminating the pre-dawn sky with red and orange flames over a city awash in corpses and under siege from looters. There were no immediate reports of injuries. Vibrations from the blast along the Mississippi River and a few miles east of the French Quarter were felt all the way downtown. A series of smaller blasts followed and then a cyclone of acrid, black smoke. To jittery residents of New Orleans, it was yet another fearful sight in a city that has deteriorated rapidly since Katrina slammed ashore Monday morning. Congress was rushing through a $10.5 billion aid package, the Pentagon promised 1,400 National Guardsmen a day to stop the looting and President Bush planned to visit the region Friday. But city officials were seething with anger about what they called a slow federal response following Hurricane Katrina. "They don't have a clue what's going on down there," Mayor Ray Nagin told WWL-AM Thursday night. "They flew down here one time two days after the doggone event was over with TV cameras, AP reporters, all kind of goddamn - excuse my French everybody in America, but I am ****ed." Seeking to deflect rising criticism of the federal response, Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, said Friday: "In this catastrophic event, everything that we had pre-positioned and ready to go became overwhelmed immediately after the storm." Thursday saw thousands being evacuated by bus to Houston from the hot and stinking Superdome. Fistfights and fires erupted amid a seething sea of tense, suffering people who waited in a lines that stretched a half-mile to board yellow school buses. The looting continued. Gov. Kathleen Blanco called the looters "hoodlums" and issued a warning to lawbreakers: Hundreds of National Guard troops hardened on the battlefield in Iraq have landed in New Orleans. "They have M-16s and they're locked and loaded," she said. "These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so, and I expect they will." At the Superdome, group of refugees broke through a line of heavily armed National Guardsmen in a scramble to get on to the buses. Nearby, about 15,000 to 20,000 people who had taken shelter at New Orleans Convention Center grew ever more hostile after waiting for buses for days amid the filth and the dead. Police Chief Eddie Compass said there was such a crush around a squad of 88 officers that they retreated when they went in to check out reports of assaults. "We have individuals who are getting raped, we have individuals who are getting beaten," Compass said. "Tourists are walking in that direction and they are getting preyed upon." By Thursday evening, 11 hours after the military began evacuating the Superdome, the arena held 10,000 more people than it did at dawn. Evacuees from across the city swelled the crowd to about 30,000 because they believed the arena was the best place to get a ride out of town. Some of those among the mostly poor crowd had been in the dome for four days without air conditioning, working toilets or a place to bathe. One military policeman was shot in the leg as he and a man scuffled for the MP's rifle. The man was arrested. By late Thursday, the flow of refugees to the Houston Astrodome was temporarily halted with a population of 11,325, less than half the estimated 23,000 people expected. Texas Gov. Rick Perry announced that Dallas would host 25,000 more refugees at Reunion Arena and 25,000 others would relocate to a San Antonio warehouse at KellyUSA, a city-owned complex that once was home to an Air Force base. Houston estimated as many as 55,000 people who fled the hurricane were staying in area hotels. The blasts early Friday rocked a chemical storage facility along the river, said Lt. Michael Francis of the Harbor Police. At least two police boats could be seen at the scene and a hazardous material team was on route. Francis did not have any other information. While floodwaters in New Orleans appeared to stabilize, efforts continued to plug three breaches that had opened up in the levee system that was designed to protect this below-sea-level city. Helicopters dropped sandbags into the breach and pilings were being pounded into the mouth of the canal Thursday to close its connection to Lake Pontchartrain. At least seven bodies were scattered outside the convention center, a makeshift staging area for those rescued from rooftops, attics and highways. The sidewalks were packed with people without food, water or medical care, and with no sign of law enforcement. A military helicopter tried to land at the convention center several times to drop off food and water. But the rushing crowd forced the choppers to back off. Troopers then tossed the supplies to the crowd from 10 feet off the ground and flew away. "There's a lot of very sick people - elderly ones, infirm ones - who can't stand this heat, and there's a lot of children who don't have water and basic necessities to survive on," said Daniel Edwards, 47, outside the center. "We need to eat, or drink water at the very least." An old man in a chaise lounge lay dead in a grassy median as hungry babies wailed around him. Around the corner, an elderly woman lay dead in her wheelchair, covered up by a blanket, and another body lay beside her wrapped in a sheet. "I don't treat my dog like that," Edwards said as he pointed at the woman in the wheelchair. "You can do everything for other countries, but you can't do nothing for your own people." Brown said the agency just learned about the situation at the convention center Thursday and quickly scrambled to provide food, water and medical care and remove the corpses. The slow response frustrated Nagin: "I have no idea what they're doing but I will tell you this: God is looking down on all this and if they're not doing everything in their power to save people, they are going to pay the price because every day that we delay, people are dying and they're dying by the hundreds." In hopes of defusing the situation at the convention center, Nagin gave the evacuees permission to march across a bridge to the city's unflooded west bank for whatever relief they could find. A day after Nagin took 1,500 police officers off search-and-rescue duty to try to restore order in the streets, there were continued reports of looting, shootings, gunfire and carjackings. Tourist Debbie Durso of Washington, Mich., said she asked a police officer for assistance and his response was, "'Go to hell - it's every man for himself.'" FEMA officials said some operations had to be suspended in areas where gunfire has broken out, but they are working overtime to feed people and restore order. Outside a looted Rite-Aid drugstore, some people were anxious to show they needed what they were taking. A gray-haired man who would not give his name pulled up his T-shirt to show a surgery scar and explained that he needs pads for incontinence. "I'm a Christian," he said. "I feel bad going in there." Hospitals struggled to evacuate critically ill patients who were dying for lack of oxygen, insulin or intravenous fluids. But when some hospitals try to airlift patients, Coast Guard Lt. Cmdr. Cheri Ben-Iesan said, "there are people just taking potshots at police and at helicopters, telling them, `You better come get my family.'" To make matters worse, the chief of the Louisiana State Police said he heard of numerous instances of New Orleans police officers - many of whom from flooded areas - turning in their badges. "They indicated that they had lost everything and didn't feel that it was worth them going back to take fire from looters and losing their lives," Col. Henry Whitehorn said. Mississippi's confirmed death toll from Katrina rose to 126 on Thursday as more rescue teams spread out into a sea of rubble to search for the living, their efforts complicated at one point by the threat of a thunderstorm. All along the 90-mile coast, other emergency workers performed the grisly task of retrieving corpses, some of them lying on streets and amid the ruins of obliterated homes that stretch back blocks from the beach. Gov. Haley Barbour said he knows people are tired, hungry, dirty and scared - particularly in areas hardest hit by Katrina. He said the state faces a long and expensive recovery process. "I will say, sometimes I'm scared, too," Barbour said during a briefing in Jackson, Miss. "But we are going to hitch up our britches. We're going to get this done." |
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#9
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"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com... It is becoming more and more apparent that the Federal Government has REALLY dropped the ball on Katrina. Perhaps some of them should spend a few days stranded on a roof top with no water/food/toilet waiting for someone to notice them. The question.... Should government officials be held criminally liable for the unfolding nightmare we are witnessing hour by hour? If it doesn't happen, it damn well should. One very ticked off American, That's what the next election is for! We should make sure that anyone who even contributed to our unreadiness is booted out of office as soon as possible. Norm |
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#10
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"Gunner" wrote in message
... So much for the oaths of the members of one of the most corrupt police departments in the United States. I suspect..they couldnt get any graft anymore..so they quit. Gunner If more than half the Louisiana NG wasn't off fighting an illegal, stupid war, they'd have been there to help. Norm |
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#11
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In article , Gunner says...
It is becoming more and more apparent that the Federal Government has REALLY dropped the ball on Katrina. How so? Go talk to the guy who quit from the US Army Corp of Engineers a year or so ago, because of the exact issue. Maybe he would have something to say. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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#12
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I have already decided who I am going to vote for based on what I am
seeing....and I suspect many other Americans are making their minds up too. TMT |
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#13
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On 2 Sep 2005 06:27:39 -0700, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
No disrespect intended Gunner but I think you need to spend a few days on a roof in New Orleans with no water and food and then reconsider the subject....I think your opinion would change. How, specifically, are they supposed to do more than they're doing? Be complete. If your plan is good, perhaps you could get it to the people doing the planning. yes, it's very bad. Yes, bad things are happening. How, specifically, would you respond first, with what resources, and how do you handle the logistics? Show your work. This isn't the time to bash your favorite politician for whatever the hell you don't like. Adding noise to the problem doesn't help. |
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#14
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On 2 Sep 2005 07:34:15 -0700, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I have already decided who I am going to vote for based on what I am seeing....and I suspect many other Americans are making their minds up too. Somehow, I'm guessing that in reality, your mind was made up long ago, and you're exploiting this tragedy to make a political point. |
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#15
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Norm Dresner wrote: "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com... It is becoming more and more apparent that the Federal Government has REALLY dropped the ball on Katrina. Perhaps some of them should spend a few days stranded on a roof top with no water/food/toilet waiting for someone to notice them. The question.... Should government officials be held criminally liable for the unfolding nightmare we are witnessing hour by hour? If it doesn't happen, it damn well should. One very ticked off American, That's what the next election is for! We should make sure that anyone who even contributed to our unreadiness is booted out of office as soon as possible. We did that in 2000. |
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#16
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Dave Hinz wrote:
On 2 Sep 2005 07:34:15 -0700, Too_Many_Tools wrote: I have already decided who I am going to vote for based on what I am seeing....and I suspect many other Americans are making their minds up too. Somehow, I'm guessing that in reality, your mind was made up long ago, and you're exploiting this tragedy to make a political point. LOL Gee Dave, Ya think? |
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#17
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Gunner wrote:
On 1 Sep 2005 22:27:08 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools" wrote: Like this.... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/hurricane...kxBHNlYwN0bQ-- New Orleans' top emergency management official called that effort a "national disgrace" and questioned when reinforcements would actually reach the increasingly lawless city. About 15,000 to 20,000 people who had taken shelter at New Orleans convention center grew ever more hostile after waiting for buses for days amid the filth and the dead. Police Chief Eddie Compass said there was such a crush around a squad of 88 officers that they retreated when they went in to check out reports of assaults. "We have individuals who are getting raped, we have individuals who are getting beaten," Compass said. "Tourists are walking in that direction and they are getting preyed upon." Col. Henry Whitehorn, chief of the Louisiana State Police, said he heard of numerous instances of New Orleans police officers - many of whom from flooded areas - turning in their badges. "They indicated that they had lost everything and didn't feel that it was worth them going back to take fire from looters and losing their lives," Whitehorn said. So much for the oaths of the members of one of the most corrupt police departments in the United States. I suspect..they couldnt get any graft anymore..so they quit. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner I know someone that used to live there. Corrupt police? Very much so. michael |
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"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com... No disrespect intended Gunner but I think you need to spend a few days on a roof in New Orleans with no water and food and then reconsider the subject....I think your opinion would change. The Feds HAVE dropped the ball BIG TIME. I see that the White House has now decided that maybe they should make a quick trip to New Orleans for PR. Meanwhile New Orleans burns... TMT I just can't understand why the fed didn't have exactly all the right supplies and equipment on all the right street corners BEFORE the storm hit...I'm sure that if the libs were in power, they would have predicted this perfectly! Gee, do you think that anything going RIGHT will get media coverage? |
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"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com... I have already decided who I am going to vote for based on what I am seeing....and I suspect many other Americans are making their minds up too. TMT The key phrase he "based on what I am seeing" I thought you were smarter than that??? |
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Dave Hinz wrote:
On 2 Sep 2005 07:34:15 -0700, Too_Many_Tools wrote: I have already decided who I am going to vote for based on what I am seeing....and I suspect many other Americans are making their minds up too. Somehow, I'm guessing that in reality, your mind was made up long ago, and you're exploiting this tragedy to make a political point. And in most elections I wonder how much difference it would make when the scenario will result in either 'asshole' or 'assbite' being elected. michael |
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"SteveF" wrote in message om... "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com... It is becoming more and more apparent that the Federal Government has REALLY dropped the ball on Katrina. No, the ball was dropped 40 years ago when the government passed the National Flood Insurance Program and created FEMA and made it public policy to cover the losses of people and banks when houses were built in flood plains (ever wonder why they call it that?). This problem occurs every couple of years and cost billions of dollars each time because the government didn't outright ban new construction in flood plains. Every couple of years my insurance company calls me to bring to my attention that I don't have flood coverage on my house. My response is always, "I don't need it because I'm not stupid enough to live in a flood plain." i agree with what you say in the rest of this post, but how do you know you aren't? have you looked at the flood maps? the reason i ask is that about 50% of phoenix, in the middle of a desert, is in one flood plain or another, but people don't usually expect that info just by looking around and not seeing any nearby rivers. The alternative was to create building codes to handle the problem. New Orleans could have EASILY passed a building code that required all buildings to have a concrete block first floor (required to remain uninhabited space) to get the main structure out of harm's way. And to jack up all existing buildings. Did they do that? No. Any coastal community could pass building codes to make hurricane proof buildings. Did they do that? No. Why? Because the codes would "make housing unaffordable" and "hurt the local economy". My boss was telling me a story once of when he lived near Roanoke, Virginia. One of his coworkers found a nice lot down by the river. The guy goes to the Corps of Engineers and asks them to tell him what is the abolutely worst possible flood that could happen and they gave him the numbers. Went and built a little hill in the middle of the property and proceeded to build a house on it. Needless to say, everyone thought he was out of his mind for spending all that money and effort. A couple years later - big flood. My boss says saw his coworker's house as the news chopper was flying over the river showing flooded house, flooded house, flooded house, house on a little hill, flooded house...... Just last year, the Army Corps of Engineers sought $105 million for hurricane and flood programs in New Orleans. The White House slashed the request to about $40 million. Congress finally approved $42.2 million, less than half of the agency's request. There's 1.3 million people in New Orleans so they could have made up the difference. That's $31 each to spend THEIR money to protect THEIR property. Did they do that? No. I just spent three days working and sweating my ass off (plus $500 in hired labor) cutting down three huge, dead pine trees that were within range of my garage because I didn't want my property damaged in a storm. Guess the thing to do nowadays is to wait until the trees crushed my garage and then stand there with tears running down my face saying, "Woe is me". That's not true. Experts had predicted for years that a major hurricane would eventually hit New Orleans, swamping the levees and filling the bowl-shaped city with polluted water. Yet even Bush insisted that nobody anticipated the breach of the levees in a serious storm. Experts? Anyone with half a brain could have seen it coming. I wonder what the future holds for this country when everyone thinks that taking care of them is someone else's responsibility. amen Steve. regards, charlie cave creek, az |
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"Norm Dresner" wrote in message ... "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com... It is becoming more and more apparent that the Federal Government has REALLY dropped the ball on Katrina. Perhaps some of them should spend a few days stranded on a roof top with no water/food/toilet waiting for someone to notice them. The question.... Should government officials be held criminally liable for the unfolding nightmare we are witnessing hour by hour? If it doesn't happen, it damn well should. One very ticked off American, That's what the next election is for! We should make sure that anyone who even contributed to our unreadiness is booted out of office as soon as possible. Norm and that would be, like, everyone? how about everyone in the last 300 years who aren't around anymore? n.o. has known about this for decades, ever since they started putting up the levees in the 1920s. however, the motto isn't "let the good times roll" for nothing. regards, charlie cave creek, az |
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On 2 Sep 2005 15:05:32 GMT, Dave Hinz
wrote: snip How, specifically, are they supposed to do more than they're doing? Be complete. snip Its called "exigent circumstances" and allows the government at several levels to commandeer any resources required to "repel an invasion," "quell a civil insurrection," and "respond to natural disasters." While New Orleans and the costal areas were very hard hit, the inland areas and large adjacent cities were not. The governor of Louisiana should have called the Governors of Texas and Louisiana, who then should have commandeered both the goods required and the trucks to transport them within their states. Indeed, they could even require the drivers of the commandeered trucks to drive them to New Orleans. Note that this is not confiscation in that the government at some level will eventually pay for the goods and services, and common sense would indicate that the adjacent states should not be stripped of the required goods, but merely have their warehouse stocks drawn down, with additional supplies drawn in from yet more distant states/areas over time. Medical and housing facilities in the adjacent areas should also have been commandeered so that the trucks that hauled the supplies in could transport refugees out to suitable housing with sanitary facilities and a change of clothing [again commandeered for the large chain stores as required]. School and commercial busses could be commandeered in the three state area to evacuate additional refugees, especially into the smaller towns avoiding overloading any one area. Instead what we have is a "Chinese fire-drill" on the official level and massive price-gouging/profiteering by the private sector. If it were not for the volunteer efforts of private citizens and NGOs, the situation would be far worse. This again raises the question - just what do we the people need a Federal government for, and why are we paying so much for so little? |
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SteveF wrote:
I wonder what the future holds for this country when everyone thinks that taking care of them is someone else's responsibility. It's almost as if the country behaves like a 16 year old. Whining for more freedom when times are good and demanding to be taken care of when times are bad.... |
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On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:59:49 GMT, "Norm Dresner"
wrote: "Gunner" wrote in message .. . So much for the oaths of the members of one of the most corrupt police departments in the United States. I suspect..they couldnt get any graft anymore..so they quit. Gunner If more than half the Louisiana NG wasn't off fighting an illegal, stupid war, they'd have been there to help. Norm Actually Ab...less than a third are in Iraq. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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On 2 Sep 2005 06:27:39 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote: No disrespect intended Gunner but I think you need to spend a few days on a roof in New Orleans with no water and food and then reconsider the subject....I think your opinion would change. Ill give you a hint old friend...why in the world would I have left myself helpless, hopeless and clueless in the first place? 1. When the evac orders came..I would have been gone. 2. If something caused me to be unable to leave, Id have my survival preps to rely on..and they are more than a couple bags of stale chips and a can or two of outdated Spam. 3. When the water started rising..you can bet your ass I and mine would have been on the move out of the area, properly kitted up with the proper supplies to get us out of the area and to dry land and safety. 4. If you will note..the vast vast majority of those poor dumb *******s herded together on the I-10 overpass are NOT wheelchair bound invalids, whose behavior could be excused. So No mate..my opinion would not have changed. And quite honestly..I HAVE lived down there, and while there, made preps for just such a situation. Its called Situational Awareness and personal responsibility. Unfortunately..the vast majority of those remaining in danger are professional victims who have been indoctrinated in waiting, hand out, for someone to come fix their booboos. As far as the time gone by so far..NO is NOT the only area in trouble. Are you aware that the area damaged by Katrina, is bigger than the entire British Isles, including Ireland? How fast do you think the highland Scots would be getting aid in a similar situation? This is BIG, this is Bad, and its gonna take ****ing Years to level out. I continue to be fascinated by the reporters and talking heads babbling about weeks or a month before power to most areas is restored. Frankly...if anyone does the research, you will find that in many places..the entire..entire..entire infrastructure is gone. Missing. Left. No More there. Power may be restored in months..but it will be Years before many folks will be able to simply flush a toilet or turn on a tap and get potable water. History will show that this is the Worst, by orders of magnitudes, natural disaster the US ever faced. With ramifications similar to the US having been in a limited nuclear exchange. Its been 5 days. There are bodies and walking dead scattered across an area the size of the UK...and you expect some sort of miracle? Sorry..aint gonna happen. The NO thing while sad, should have been handled by local authorities. Ill not point out the obvious fact that they tend to be Corrupt Democrats. The US has taken a long term hit that will take multiple years to sort out, and we have only seen the tip of the iceberg as far as far reaching effects will go. We may well wind up with a depression that will make 1929 look like an economic blip. The near future is the time we should all hope and pray we voted for the right people, and they hired the right advisors. In ALL governments, Federal, state and local. Feel free to finger point. But its mighty disengenious of you, based on the evident ignorance you display of both the facts of the matter, and the scope. And perhaps you should consider very strongly what JFK said... "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" Shrug Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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In article , Gunner says...
Actually Ab...less than a third are in Iraq. And the two thirds that are home, haven't come back recently? And are fully capable of responding? Point is, they send the most able ones overseas. The ones behind may well be the ones who cannot or will not serve, for whatever reason. My personal guess is if you put the screws to it, less than half of the stateside guard could actually be deployed. And most of what they would need, is overseas. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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On 2 Sep 2005 07:29:16 -0700, jim rozen
wrote: In article , Gunner says... It is becoming more and more apparent that the Federal Government has REALLY dropped the ball on Katrina. How so? Go talk to the guy who quit from the US Army Corp of Engineers a year or so ago, because of the exact issue. Maybe he would have something to say. Jim Thursday, September 01, 2005 US Left: All Straws Clutched, Every Barrel Scraped The Left in the US seems determined to find any angle (ranging from the irrational to the psychotic) to pin the blame of the devastating Hurricane Katrina on President Bush. They have tried so far: the global warming caused it angle, strike one; not enough Louisiana National Guard troops due to the war in Iraq, strike two; now, Bush cut money earmarked for flood control due to the war in Iraq, hopefully strike three. The latest idea is floated by sometime journalist, sometime Clinton policy advisor, and sometime litigant Sidney Blumenthal. His latest missive can be found in Speigel Online, natch: In 2001, FEMA warned that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the three most likely disasters in the U.S. But the Bush administration cut New Orleans flood control funding by 44 percent to pay for the Iraq war. In early 2001, the Federal Emergency Management Agency issued a report stating that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the three most likely disasters in the U.S., including a terrorist attack on New York City. But by 2003 the federal funding for the flood control project essentially dried up as it was drained into the Iraq war. In 2004, the Bush administration cut funding requested by the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent. Additional cuts at the beginning of this year (for a total reduction in funding of 44.2 percent since 2001) forced the New Orleans district of the Corps to impose a hiring freeze. The Senate had debated adding funds for fixing New Orleans' levees, but it was too late. There is also wasted space regarding the debunked global warming nonsense. Well, what was the Clinton Administration policy on floods, hurricanes, and the sort in Louisiana? Using the same source as Mr. Blumenthal, the Times-Picayune, we find the following via Lexis-Nexis: February 17, 1995 An Army Corps of Engineers "hit list" of recommended budget cuts would eliminate new flood-control programs in some of the nation's most flood-prone spots - where recent disasters have left thousands homeless and cost the federal government millions in emergency aid. Clinton administration officials argue that the flood-control efforts are local projects, not national, and should be paid for by local taxes. Nationwide, the administration proposes cutting 98 new projects in 35 states and Puerto Rico, for an estimated savings of $29 million in 1996. Corps officials freely conceded the cuts, which represent only a small portion of savings the corps ultimately must make, may be penny-wise and pound-foolish. But they said they were forced to eliminate some services the corps has historically provided to taxpayers to meet the administration's budget-cutting goals. June 23, 1995 A hurricane project, approved and financed since 1965, to protect more than 140,000 West Bank residents east of the Harvey Canal is in jeopardy. The Clinton administration is holding back a Corps of Engineers report recommending that the $120 million project proceed. Unless that report is forwarded to the Office of Management and Budget, Congress cannot authorize money for the project, U.S. Rep. William Jefferson's office said Thursday. On June 9, John Zirschky, the acting assistant secretary of the Army and the official who refused to forward the report, sent a memo to the corps, saying the recommendation for the project "is not consistent with the policies and budget priorities reflected in the President's Fiscal Year 1996 budget. Accordingly, I will not forward the report to the Office of Management and Budget for clearance." July 26, 1996 The House voted Thursday for a $19.4 billion energy and water bill that provides $246 million for Army Corps of Engineers projects in Louisiana. The bill, approved 391-23, is the last of the 13 annual spending measures for 1997 approved by the House. One area in which the House approved more financing than the president requested was for flood control and maintenance of harbors and shipping routes by the Army Corps of Engineers. Flood control projects along the Mississippi River and its tributaries were allotted $303 million, or $10 million more than the president wanted. June 19, 1996 The Army Corps of Engineers, which builds most flood protection levees on a federal-local cost-sharing basis, uses a cost-benefit ratio to justify a project. If the cost of building a levee is considered less than the cost of restoring a flood-ravaged area, the project is more likely to be approved. For years, the Jean Lafitte-Lower Lafitte-Barataria-Crown Point areas couldn't convince the corps they were worthy of levee protection. But the use of Section 205 and congressional pressure has given the corps a new perspective, Spohrer said. But even so, when the Clinton administration began to curtail spending on flood control and other projects a year ago, the corps stopped spending on Section 205 projects even after deciding to do a $70,000 preliminary Jean Lafitte study, Spohrer said. July 22, 1999 In passing a $20.2 billion spending bill this week for water and energy projects, the House Appropriations Committee approved some significant increases in financing for several New Orleans area flood control and navigational projects. The spending bill is expected on the House floor within the next two weeks. For the New Orleans District of the Army Corps of Engineers, the panel allocated $106 million for construction projects, about $16 million more than proposed by President Clinton. The bill would provide $47 million for "southeast Louisiana flood control projects," $16 million for "Lake Pontchartrain and vicinity hurricane protection," $15.9 million for the Inner Harbor Navigation Canal Lock on the Industrial Canal in New Orleans and $2 million for "West Bank hurricane protection -- from New Orleans to Venice." Most of the projects received significant increases over what the Clinton administration had proposed. The exception: general flood control projects for southeast Louisiana, which remained at the $47 million suggested by Clinton. Local officials had hoped for double that amount. February 8, 2000 For the metropolitan New Orleans area, Clinton's budget was seen as a mixed bag by local lawmakers and government officials. For instance, while Clinton called for $1.5 billion to be spent at Avondale Industries to continue building LPD-17 landing craft, his budget calls for significantly less than what Congress appropriated last year for Lake Pontchartrain and vicinity hurricane protection and for West Bank flood control projects. September 29, 2000 The House approved Thursday a $23.6 billion measure for water and energy programs, with sizable increases for several New Orleans area flood-control projects. The Senate will vote Monday, but it may be a while before the bill is enacted. President Clinton is promising to veto the annual appropriation for the Energy Department and Army Corps of Engineers, not because it is $890 million larger than he proposed, but because it does not include a plan to alter the levels of the Missouri River to protect endangered fish and birds. May 8, 2005 (extra) Ten years ago today, the Bonneaus and hundreds of thousands of New Orleans area residents rode out a rain unlike any they had ever experienced. The flood killed six people and generated more claims than any in the history of the National Flood Insurance Program. In its aftermath, Congress created a new role for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, and federal and local governments spent more than a half-billion dollars to widen and line drainage canals, bury culverts bigger than cars and beef up pumping stations. But not even those improvements could prevent massive flooding if a storm of similar intensity were to strike today. And on it goes. No amount of money can guarantee the risk-free existence so craved by the US Left. The post is not a slam on President Clinton, it merely shows that his administration was not exactly tackling the flood-control issue in Louisiana as Mr. Blumenthal suggests in his anti-Bush "piece". The post asks Mr. Blumenthal and the US Left to stop looting this disaster for very cheap political reasons. "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:58:35 GMT, "Norm Dresner"
wrote: "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message roups.com... It is becoming more and more apparent that the Federal Government has REALLY dropped the ball on Katrina. Perhaps some of them should spend a few days stranded on a roof top with no water/food/toilet waiting for someone to notice them. The question.... Should government officials be held criminally liable for the unfolding nightmare we are witnessing hour by hour? If it doesn't happen, it damn well should. One very ticked off American, That's what the next election is for! We should make sure that anyone who even contributed to our unreadiness is booted out of office as soon as possible. Norm We did. Fewer and fewer Dems are holding office, which is a good thing after 60 yrs of Democrat misrule. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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On 2 Sep 2005 07:34:15 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote: I have already decided who I am going to vote for based on what I am seeing....and I suspect many other Americans are making their minds up too. TMT Then you will vote Republican? Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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On 2 Sep 2005 15:07:49 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:
On 2 Sep 2005 07:34:15 -0700, Too_Many_Tools wrote: I have already decided who I am going to vote for based on what I am seeing....and I suspect many other Americans are making their minds up too. Somehow, I'm guessing that in reality, your mind was made up long ago, and you're exploiting this tragedy to make a political point. Indeed Thursday, September 01, 2005 US Left: All Straws Clutched, Every Barrel Scraped The Left in the US seems determined to find any angle (ranging from the irrational to the psychotic) to pin the blame of the devastating Hurricane Katrina on President Bush. They have tried so far: the global warming caused it angle, strike one; not enough Louisiana National Guard troops due to the war in Iraq, strike two; now, Bush cut money earmarked for flood control due to the war in Iraq, hopefully strike three. The latest idea is floated by sometime journalist, sometime Clinton policy advisor, and sometime litigant Sidney Blumenthal. His latest missive can be found in Speigel Online, natch: In 2001, FEMA warned that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the three most likely disasters in the U.S. But the Bush administration cut New Orleans flood control funding by 44 percent to pay for the Iraq war. In early 2001, the Federal Emergency Management Agency issued a report stating that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the three most likely disasters in the U.S., including a terrorist attack on New York City. But by 2003 the federal funding for the flood control project essentially dried up as it was drained into the Iraq war. In 2004, the Bush administration cut funding requested by the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent. Additional cuts at the beginning of this year (for a total reduction in funding of 44.2 percent since 2001) forced the New Orleans district of the Corps to impose a hiring freeze. The Senate had debated adding funds for fixing New Orleans' levees, but it was too late. There is also wasted space regarding the debunked global warming nonsense. Well, what was the Clinton Administration policy on floods, hurricanes, and the sort in Louisiana? Using the same source as Mr. Blumenthal, the Times-Picayune, we find the following via Lexis-Nexis: February 17, 1995 An Army Corps of Engineers "hit list" of recommended budget cuts would eliminate new flood-control programs in some of the nation's most flood-prone spots - where recent disasters have left thousands homeless and cost the federal government millions in emergency aid. Clinton administration officials argue that the flood-control efforts are local projects, not national, and should be paid for by local taxes. Nationwide, the administration proposes cutting 98 new projects in 35 states and Puerto Rico, for an estimated savings of $29 million in 1996. Corps officials freely conceded the cuts, which represent only a small portion of savings the corps ultimately must make, may be penny-wise and pound-foolish. But they said they were forced to eliminate some services the corps has historically provided to taxpayers to meet the administration's budget-cutting goals. June 23, 1995 A hurricane project, approved and financed since 1965, to protect more than 140,000 West Bank residents east of the Harvey Canal is in jeopardy. The Clinton administration is holding back a Corps of Engineers report recommending that the $120 million project proceed. Unless that report is forwarded to the Office of Management and Budget, Congress cannot authorize money for the project, U.S. Rep. William Jefferson's office said Thursday. On June 9, John Zirschky, the acting assistant secretary of the Army and the official who refused to forward the report, sent a memo to the corps, saying the recommendation for the project "is not consistent with the policies and budget priorities reflected in the President's Fiscal Year 1996 budget. Accordingly, I will not forward the report to the Office of Management and Budget for clearance." July 26, 1996 The House voted Thursday for a $19.4 billion energy and water bill that provides $246 million for Army Corps of Engineers projects in Louisiana. The bill, approved 391-23, is the last of the 13 annual spending measures for 1997 approved by the House. One area in which the House approved more financing than the president requested was for flood control and maintenance of harbors and shipping routes by the Army Corps of Engineers. Flood control projects along the Mississippi River and its tributaries were allotted $303 million, or $10 million more than the president wanted. June 19, 1996 The Army Corps of Engineers, which builds most flood protection levees on a federal-local cost-sharing basis, uses a cost-benefit ratio to justify a project. If the cost of building a levee is considered less than the cost of restoring a flood-ravaged area, the project is more likely to be approved. For years, the Jean Lafitte-Lower Lafitte-Barataria-Crown Point areas couldn't convince the corps they were worthy of levee protection. But the use of Section 205 and congressional pressure has given the corps a new perspective, Spohrer said. But even so, when the Clinton administration began to curtail spending on flood control and other projects a year ago, the corps stopped spending on Section 205 projects even after deciding to do a $70,000 preliminary Jean Lafitte study, Spohrer said. July 22, 1999 In passing a $20.2 billion spending bill this week for water and energy projects, the House Appropriations Committee approved some significant increases in financing for several New Orleans area flood control and navigational projects. The spending bill is expected on the House floor within the next two weeks. For the New Orleans District of the Army Corps of Engineers, the panel allocated $106 million for construction projects, about $16 million more than proposed by President Clinton. The bill would provide $47 million for "southeast Louisiana flood control projects," $16 million for "Lake Pontchartrain and vicinity hurricane protection," $15.9 million for the Inner Harbor Navigation Canal Lock on the Industrial Canal in New Orleans and $2 million for "West Bank hurricane protection -- from New Orleans to Venice." Most of the projects received significant increases over what the Clinton administration had proposed. The exception: general flood control projects for southeast Louisiana, which remained at the $47 million suggested by Clinton. Local officials had hoped for double that amount. February 8, 2000 For the metropolitan New Orleans area, Clinton's budget was seen as a mixed bag by local lawmakers and government officials. For instance, while Clinton called for $1.5 billion to be spent at Avondale Industries to continue building LPD-17 landing craft, his budget calls for significantly less than what Congress appropriated last year for Lake Pontchartrain and vicinity hurricane protection and for West Bank flood control projects. September 29, 2000 The House approved Thursday a $23.6 billion measure for water and energy programs, with sizable increases for several New Orleans area flood-control projects. The Senate will vote Monday, but it may be a while before the bill is enacted. President Clinton is promising to veto the annual appropriation for the Energy Department and Army Corps of Engineers, not because it is $890 million larger than he proposed, but because it does not include a plan to alter the levels of the Missouri River to protect endangered fish and birds. May 8, 2005 (extra) Ten years ago today, the Bonneaus and hundreds of thousands of New Orleans area residents rode out a rain unlike any they had ever experienced. The flood killed six people and generated more claims than any in the history of the National Flood Insurance Program. In its aftermath, Congress created a new role for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, and federal and local governments spent more than a half-billion dollars to widen and line drainage canals, bury culverts bigger than cars and beef up pumping stations. But not even those improvements could prevent massive flooding if a storm of similar intensity were to strike today. And on it goes. No amount of money can guarantee the risk-free existence so craved by the US Left. The post is not a slam on President Clinton, it merely shows that his administration was not exactly tackling the flood-control issue in Louisiana as Mr. Blumenthal suggests in his anti-Bush "piece". The post asks Mr. Blumenthal and the US Left to stop looting this disaster for very cheap political reasons. "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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Out of curiosity, what type of evacuation plans exist for your municipality?
Are all of the community aware of them? (Are you aware of them?) Do they have the means to implement them if necessary? (How many rely on public transportation?) Just asking. "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com... No disrespect intended Gunner but I think you need to spend a few days on a roof in New Orleans with no water and food and then reconsider the subject....I think your opinion would change. The Feds HAVE dropped the ball BIG TIME. I see that the White House has now decided that maybe they should make a quick trip to New Orleans for PR. Meanwhile New Orleans burns... TMT === Depot Explodes Over Lawless New Orleans By ALLEN G. BREED, Associated Press Writer An explosion at a chemical depot jolted residents awake early Friday, illuminating the pre-dawn sky with red and orange flames over a city awash in corpses and under siege from looters. There were no immediate reports of injuries. Vibrations from the blast along the Mississippi River and a few miles east of the French Quarter were felt all the way downtown. A series of smaller blasts followed and then a cyclone of acrid, black smoke. To jittery residents of New Orleans, it was yet another fearful sight in a city that has deteriorated rapidly since Katrina slammed ashore Monday morning. Congress was rushing through a $10.5 billion aid package, the Pentagon promised 1,400 National Guardsmen a day to stop the looting and President Bush planned to visit the region Friday. But city officials were seething with anger about what they called a slow federal response following Hurricane Katrina. "They don't have a clue what's going on down there," Mayor Ray Nagin told WWL-AM Thursday night. "They flew down here one time two days after the doggone event was over with TV cameras, AP reporters, all kind of goddamn - excuse my French everybody in America, but I am ****ed." Seeking to deflect rising criticism of the federal response, Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, said Friday: "In this catastrophic event, everything that we had pre-positioned and ready to go became overwhelmed immediately after the storm." Thursday saw thousands being evacuated by bus to Houston from the hot and stinking Superdome. Fistfights and fires erupted amid a seething sea of tense, suffering people who waited in a lines that stretched a half-mile to board yellow school buses. The looting continued. Gov. Kathleen Blanco called the looters "hoodlums" and issued a warning to lawbreakers: Hundreds of National Guard troops hardened on the battlefield in Iraq have landed in New Orleans. "They have M-16s and they're locked and loaded," she said. "These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so, and I expect they will." At the Superdome, group of refugees broke through a line of heavily armed National Guardsmen in a scramble to get on to the buses. Nearby, about 15,000 to 20,000 people who had taken shelter at New Orleans Convention Center grew ever more hostile after waiting for buses for days amid the filth and the dead. Police Chief Eddie Compass said there was such a crush around a squad of 88 officers that they retreated when they went in to check out reports of assaults. "We have individuals who are getting raped, we have individuals who are getting beaten," Compass said. "Tourists are walking in that direction and they are getting preyed upon." By Thursday evening, 11 hours after the military began evacuating the Superdome, the arena held 10,000 more people than it did at dawn. Evacuees from across the city swelled the crowd to about 30,000 because they believed the arena was the best place to get a ride out of town. Some of those among the mostly poor crowd had been in the dome for four days without air conditioning, working toilets or a place to bathe. One military policeman was shot in the leg as he and a man scuffled for the MP's rifle. The man was arrested. By late Thursday, the flow of refugees to the Houston Astrodome was temporarily halted with a population of 11,325, less than half the estimated 23,000 people expected. Texas Gov. Rick Perry announced that Dallas would host 25,000 more refugees at Reunion Arena and 25,000 others would relocate to a San Antonio warehouse at KellyUSA, a city-owned complex that once was home to an Air Force base. Houston estimated as many as 55,000 people who fled the hurricane were staying in area hotels. The blasts early Friday rocked a chemical storage facility along the river, said Lt. Michael Francis of the Harbor Police. At least two police boats could be seen at the scene and a hazardous material team was on route. Francis did not have any other information. While floodwaters in New Orleans appeared to stabilize, efforts continued to plug three breaches that had opened up in the levee system that was designed to protect this below-sea-level city. Helicopters dropped sandbags into the breach and pilings were being pounded into the mouth of the canal Thursday to close its connection to Lake Pontchartrain. At least seven bodies were scattered outside the convention center, a makeshift staging area for those rescued from rooftops, attics and highways. The sidewalks were packed with people without food, water or medical care, and with no sign of law enforcement. A military helicopter tried to land at the convention center several times to drop off food and water. But the rushing crowd forced the choppers to back off. Troopers then tossed the supplies to the crowd from 10 feet off the ground and flew away. "There's a lot of very sick people - elderly ones, infirm ones - who can't stand this heat, and there's a lot of children who don't have water and basic necessities to survive on," said Daniel Edwards, 47, outside the center. "We need to eat, or drink water at the very least." An old man in a chaise lounge lay dead in a grassy median as hungry babies wailed around him. Around the corner, an elderly woman lay dead in her wheelchair, covered up by a blanket, and another body lay beside her wrapped in a sheet. "I don't treat my dog like that," Edwards said as he pointed at the woman in the wheelchair. "You can do everything for other countries, but you can't do nothing for your own people." Brown said the agency just learned about the situation at the convention center Thursday and quickly scrambled to provide food, water and medical care and remove the corpses. The slow response frustrated Nagin: "I have no idea what they're doing but I will tell you this: God is looking down on all this and if they're not doing everything in their power to save people, they are going to pay the price because every day that we delay, people are dying and they're dying by the hundreds." In hopes of defusing the situation at the convention center, Nagin gave the evacuees permission to march across a bridge to the city's unflooded west bank for whatever relief they could find. A day after Nagin took 1,500 police officers off search-and-rescue duty to try to restore order in the streets, there were continued reports of looting, shootings, gunfire and carjackings. Tourist Debbie Durso of Washington, Mich., said she asked a police officer for assistance and his response was, "'Go to hell - it's every man for himself.'" FEMA officials said some operations had to be suspended in areas where gunfire has broken out, but they are working overtime to feed people and restore order. Outside a looted Rite-Aid drugstore, some people were anxious to show they needed what they were taking. A gray-haired man who would not give his name pulled up his T-shirt to show a surgery scar and explained that he needs pads for incontinence. "I'm a Christian," he said. "I feel bad going in there." Hospitals struggled to evacuate critically ill patients who were dying for lack of oxygen, insulin or intravenous fluids. But when some hospitals try to airlift patients, Coast Guard Lt. Cmdr. Cheri Ben-Iesan said, "there are people just taking potshots at police and at helicopters, telling them, `You better come get my family.'" To make matters worse, the chief of the Louisiana State Police said he heard of numerous instances of New Orleans police officers - many of whom from flooded areas - turning in their badges. "They indicated that they had lost everything and didn't feel that it was worth them going back to take fire from looters and losing their lives," Col. Henry Whitehorn said. Mississippi's confirmed death toll from Katrina rose to 126 on Thursday as more rescue teams spread out into a sea of rubble to search for the living, their efforts complicated at one point by the threat of a thunderstorm. All along the 90-mile coast, other emergency workers performed the grisly task of retrieving corpses, some of them lying on streets and amid the ruins of obliterated homes that stretch back blocks from the beach. Gov. Haley Barbour said he knows people are tired, hungry, dirty and scared - particularly in areas hardest hit by Katrina. He said the state faces a long and expensive recovery process. "I will say, sometimes I'm scared, too," Barbour said during a briefing in Jackson, Miss. "But we are going to hitch up our britches. We're going to get this done." |
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#33
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jim rozen wrote: In article , F. George McDuffee says... This again raises the question - just what do we the people need a Federal government for, and why are we paying so much for so little? Rest assured that they will still want their tax moneies come November. All those folks who have been hammered by the hurricane will be hammered again, paying washington for services they never got in this debacle. Every time something like this has come up, the IRS has provided relief of some sort - extended deadlines, additional loss dedcutions. Remember 9-11? |
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#34
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Gunner wrote:
On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:59:49 GMT, "Norm Dresner" wrote: If more than half the Louisiana NG wasn't off fighting an illegal, stupid war, they'd have been there to help. Norm Actually Ab...less than a third are in Iraq. Helluva note, that. They spend a tour taking potshots from raghead opportunists, then come home to do the same thing in their old neighborhood. |
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#35
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In article , Rex B says...
Rest assured that they will still want their tax moneies come November. All those folks who have been hammered by the hurricane will be hammered again, paying washington for services they never got in this debacle. Every time something like this has come up, the IRS has provided relief of some sort - extended deadlines, additional loss dedcutions. Remember 9-11? Nice if it happens - I would not hold my breath though. I seem to recall that the IRS had the best plans to recover after natural disasters - the entire country could be in chaos, but they still want your tax return. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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#36
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On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 18:00:59 GMT, Gunner
wrote: snip US Left: All Straws Clutched, Every Barrel Scraped The Left in the US seems determined to find any angle (ranging from the irrational to the psychotic) to pin the blame of the devastating Hurricane Katrina on President Bush. snip To search for individuals to blame for this problem, or to attempt to assign responsibility to a political party, is an exercise in futility ==if the intent is to prevent or at least mitigate recurrence.== As I indicated in another post, large, high density urban areas appear to be the root cause of most of the problems. To be sure small, low density and rural areas have also had their share of disasters, but because of dispersal and easier "escape," these have been much more manageable. The continual US population shift to ever larger and ever-higher density urban areas, concentrated on or near the coastlines, is a sure-fire recipe for major disasters, both natural and man-made (terrorist), although it is highly profitable for the politically well-connected few. As Congress is fond of tinkering with the tax code to correct social problems, I suggest a multiplier be applied to the amount of corporate and individual income taxes due to the Federal government based on the population density of your home address, as indicated by the home's zip+4 postal code. Thus you might pay 1.8X or 180% of the standard income tax with an address in Manhattan, San Francisco, etc., but only .4X or 40% of the standard income tax if you lived in Caney, Kansas. The multiplier can be increased as required to more uniformly distribute the US population and industry in less dense/vulnerable ways. |
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#37
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"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
... As Congress is fond of tinkering with the tax code to correct social problems, I suggest a multiplier be applied to the amount of corporate and individual income taxes due to the Federal government based on the population density of your home address, as indicated by the home's zip+4 postal code. Thus you might pay 1.8X or 180% of the standard income tax with an address in Manhattan, San Francisco, etc., but only .4X or 40% of the standard income tax if you lived in Caney, Kansas. The multiplier can be increased as required to more uniformly distribute the US population and industry in less dense/vulnerable ways. Now all you have to do is to sell your idea to the Congresscritters and we'll all be set! BTW, have many "refugees" found their way to CC? Here [1/2 way between Houston and Victoria] we've had 273 families arrive as of yesterday. Many are staying with family members but the motels are full, too. |
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#38
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Ace wrote:
Out of curiosity, what type of evacuation plans exist for your municipality? Are all of the community aware of them?... I don't know about what my neighbors or my municipal government has planed. But my family can be on the road in 30 min, with 2 weeks worth of food, water, fuel, and well armed. We can go to our property in the high country, or virtually anywhere else if need be. I'm hardly going to sit around and wait for politicians to figure out how to save my butt. Lumpy |
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#39
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Charles Spitzer wrote:
n.o. has known about this for decades, ever since they started putting up the levees in the 1920s. however, the motto isn't "let the good times roll" for nothing. Before the **** hit the fan, the LA governor was interviewed on NPR and said "We're a strong people. We work hard and we party hard. We can get through this thing". Party on. Lump |
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#40
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Not if you are earthquake country where your home (and all those
provisions within it including transportation) would be destroyed in moments. In a blink of an eye, you could be limited to what you are wearing, what you have in your pocket and without any information. And there would be tens of thousands of other people in the situation... Sounds alot like the situation in New Orleans. TMT |
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