Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #1   Report Post  
 
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Default Question on eBay bidding

Take a closer look at the Time the multiple bides happened after
he was outbid.. He kept trying to catch up to the other bid.
They are all BOZOs for bidding early, and bidding against each other.

Bid at the LAST SECOND as much as you are willing to spend. That way
you cannot get into a bidding war, with two rookies trying to outbid,
and only raising the price.
Pete

  #2   Report Post  
Bob May
 
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That person has a max bid rather than actually bidding each iime. EBay's
bidding system allows for this and when another guy does a bit that doesn't
exceed that max. bid then the price automatically goes up enough to cover
that bid the other guy did. Such bids automatically show up as a step up in
the bidded price.

--
Why isn't there an Ozone Hole at the NORTH Pole?


  #3   Report Post  
 
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Look at the dates and times of the bids. They were not listed time
order but rather in price order.
time order.
mr.cp1 US $110.05 Jun-30-05 15:45:36
cvmillworks $176.00 Jul-02-05 14:38:27
mr.cp1 US $128.50 Jul-03-05 20:11:58
mr.cp1 US $142.10 Jul-03-05 20:12:50
mr.cp1 US $152.14 Jul-03-05 20:13:21
mr.cp1 US $165.21 Jul-03-05 20:13:58
wihc101 US $203.60 Jul-04-05 21:26:47
mr.cp1 US $201.10 Jul-05-05 5:21:34
wihc101 US $203.60 Jul-05-05 5:21:43

mr.cpl starts the bidding with 110.05. But only the minimum bid is
listed until cvmillworks bids 176.00. The recorded bid on at that time
would be just enough to outbid mr.cp1's intial 110.05.

mr.cp1 starts trying to out bid on the 3rd with successive bids of
128.50, 142,10, 152.14, and finally, 165.21 but each time, the previous
bid by cvmillworks is recorded as the new bid, though cvmillworks has
only bid once, presumably, the max they were willing to pay. Bidding
the max you are willing to pay does not mean you have to pay that max.
This is a good practice to keep from getting involved in the emotion of
the bidding a pay more than you decide you want to pay.

When you see a bid price list, you don't know how much higher than that
the bidder has a acutally already bid by proxy. The list value is just
the minimum price above the previous high bid.

hope this helps

  #4   Report Post  
Spehro Pefhany
 
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On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 17:32:23 GMT, the renowned xray
wrote:

I've been looking for a 4-jaw chuck for my lathe. Here's one that I was
following, but I think got too high for some reason:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7527214875

When I look at the bidding history, I see one person bidding up the
price with no other bids in between. I have seen this before on other
eBay auctions.

I can't figure out how this can happen. Is there something missing in
the history that is displayed or is there some other explanation.

Just curious about this weirdness that I have seen before.



The first bid was by cvmillworks, for $176.00. But the current bid
would only have shown up as $90.00.

mr.cp1 placed successive bids for $110.05, $128.50 etc. and got an
"outbid" message automatically fom eBay each time (the so-called
"proxy" bidding).

He gave up at $165.21 (the currently shown bid would have been
something like $167.71), another guy (wihc101)- the current high
bidder at t-13 minutes- came along and bid a higher amount (current
bid would have shown as something like $178.50).

mr.cp1 came back on the 5th and bid $201.10, which generated an
instant outbid notice and raised the current bid to $203.60.

You can't tell what the winnner or high bidder has bid at this point
in time (13 minutes before close), only that it was at least 203.60
(probably more). The only way you can tell what the top bid is if the
increase is less than the minimum bid increment.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
  #5   Report Post  
DeepDiver
 
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"xray" wrote in message
...
I've been looking for a 4-jaw chuck for my lathe. Here's one that I was
following, but I think got too high for some reason:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7527214875


Several others have explained the bidding history on the auction in
question, so I won't belabor that point.

However, if you don't mind a shameless plug, I'll soon be listing a Bison 8"
4-jaw independent plain-back lathe chuck (in very nice condition) on Ebay.
Note that since it's plain-back, you'll have to make or purchase an adaptor
to mate it to your spindle.

Just thought you might be interested in checking it out. I'll be happy to
let you know when I list it if you're interested.

- Michael




  #6   Report Post  
Spehro Pefhany
 
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On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 14:28:18 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 17:32:23 GMT, the renowned xray
wrote:

I've been looking for a 4-jaw chuck for my lathe. Here's one that I was
following, but I think got too high for some reason:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7527214875

When I look at the bidding history, I see one person bidding up the
price with no other bids in between. I have seen this before on other
eBay auctions.

I can't figure out how this can happen. Is there something missing in
the history that is displayed or is there some other explanation.

Just curious about this weirdness that I have seen before.



The first bid was by cvmillworks, for $176.00. But the current bid
would only have shown up as $90.00.

mr.cp1 placed successive bids for $110.05, $128.50 etc. and got an
"outbid" message automatically fom eBay each time (the so-called
"proxy" bidding).

He gave up at $165.21 (the currently shown bid would have been
something like $167.71), another guy (wihc101)- the current high
bidder at t-13 minutes- came along and bid a higher amount (current
bid would have shown as something like $178.50).

mr.cp1 came back on the 5th and bid $201.10, which generated an
instant outbid notice and raised the current bid to $203.60.

You can't tell what the winnner or high bidder has bid at this point
in time (13 minutes before close), only that it was at least 203.60
(probably more). The only way you can tell what the top bid is if the
increase is less than the minimum bid increment.


Okay, update, the auction is over and wihc101 bid exactly 237.00. The
winner whitetank60 bid at least $239.50, probably more.

Earlier, two idential bids were shown for wihc101 because he want back
and raised his bid (bidding against himself, in effect), possibly
because he was not going to be at his computer at closing and the
current bid was getting close to his reserve bid.
His first bid was for $211.00 and the second for $237.00.

Clear as mud?

The only weird thing I've seen in eBay is (I think) a consequence of
their distributed computer systems. If two bids come in at very close
to the same time (perhaps a second or so apart) and closer to each
other than the bid increment, the high bidder may not necessarily win.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
  #7   Report Post  
Mark
 
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I think the only way one person could up their own bid and have it
show, is where the item has a reserve price. When it reaches the
reserve, then it follows the logic of "raise it only if someone
ELSE does..." / mark


xray wrote:
I've been looking for a 4-jaw chuck for my lathe. Here's one that I was
following, but I think got too high for some reason:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7527214875

When I look at the bidding history, I see one person bidding up the
price with no other bids in between. I have seen this before on other
eBay auctions.

I can't figure out how this can happen. Is there something missing in
the history that is displayed or is there some other explanation.

Just curious about this weirdness that I have seen before.


  #8   Report Post  
JohnM
 
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Default

wrote:
Look at the dates and times of the bids. They were not listed time
order but rather in price order.
time order.
mr.cp1 US $110.05 Jun-30-05 15:45:36
cvmillworks $176.00 Jul-02-05 14:38:27
mr.cp1 US $128.50 Jul-03-05 20:11:58
mr.cp1 US $142.10 Jul-03-05 20:12:50
mr.cp1 US $152.14 Jul-03-05 20:13:21
mr.cp1 US $165.21 Jul-03-05 20:13:58
wihc101 US $203.60 Jul-04-05 21:26:47
mr.cp1 US $201.10 Jul-05-05 5:21:34
wihc101 US $203.60 Jul-05-05 5:21:43

mr.cpl starts the bidding with 110.05. But only the minimum bid is
listed until cvmillworks bids 176.00. The recorded bid on at that time
would be just enough to outbid mr.cp1's intial 110.05.

mr.cp1 starts trying to out bid on the 3rd with successive bids of
128.50, 142,10, 152.14, and finally, 165.21 but each time, the previous
bid by cvmillworks is recorded as the new bid, though cvmillworks has
only bid once, presumably, the max they were willing to pay. Bidding
the max you are willing to pay does not mean you have to pay that max.
This is a good practice to keep from getting involved in the emotion of
the bidding a pay more than you decide you want to pay.


Nah.. the best way is to bid the max you're willing to spend at the last
possible moment- then you cut out the ones who play like mr.cp1,
nibbling the bid up. Making a max bid early just ensures that the piece
will bring the most money possible (assuming anyone but you is
interested in it).

The other point of view I've gained is that there is some stuff that's
common enough that being the first bidder (but only at or near the
minimun bid) is better- later bidders often will go find their own,
same, item.

John
  #9   Report Post  
Mike
 
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"Bob May" signed off with:

Why isn't there an Ozone Hole at the NORTH Pole?


There is.


--
  #10   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 19:01:54 GMT, xray
wrote:

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:49:03 GMT, "DeepDiver" wrote:

"xray" wrote in message
. ..
I've been looking for a 4-jaw chuck for my lathe. Here's one that I was
following, but I think got too high for some reason:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7527214875


Several others have explained the bidding history on the auction in
question, so I won't belabor that point.

However, if you don't mind a shameless plug, I'll soon be listing a Bison 8"
4-jaw independent plain-back lathe chuck (in very nice condition) on Ebay.
Note that since it's plain-back, you'll have to make or purchase an adaptor
to mate it to your spindle.

Just thought you might be interested in checking it out. I'll be happy to
let you know when I list it if you're interested.

- Michael


Thanks to everyone for the explanations.

I guess I expected the automatic bids to show up as a new entry every
time the current higest bidder changed. Now, with the explanations, I
understand what I saw.

I was in on the bidding for a Buck chuck a few days ago. I bid only in
the last minute with a bid a good bit higher than the price at the time,
but not good enough to win. It went for about $20 over my highest bid.

I am looking for another option on a decent 4-jaw, so I may get
invovlved in your auction, Michael. This last auction mentioned here was
not the proper back for my lathe, so I was already planning on
remounting it if I got it.

What size are you looking for? Ive got 4 jaws coming out my ears.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner


  #11   Report Post  
PrecisionMachinisT
 
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"Gunner" wrote in message
...

Ive got 4 jaws coming out my ears.


Wow!!!

Must cost a fortune when you get your teeth cleaned.........

--

SVL


  #12   Report Post  
DeepDiver
 
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"xray" wrote in message
...

I'm in N. Cal so if we can find a match, shipping shouldn't be bad.


Rex, where in NorCal are you? I'm in the SF Bay Area (Marin County).

- Michael


  #13   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:46:04 -0700, "PrecisionMachinisT"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .

Ive got 4 jaws coming out my ears.


Wow!!!

Must cost a fortune when you get your teeth cleaned.........


Teeth? what teeth?

Gummer

G

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
  #14   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 07:38:33 GMT, xray
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 01:46:37 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

What size are you looking for? Ive got 4 jaws coming out my ears.

Gunner


I recently picked up a lathe that has 11" swing. (I talked here about
things like replacing the belts -- I went with Fenner link belt and it
seems to be fine -- even running backwards as you mentioned.)

It came with a 3-jaw 6" chuck and a face plate, but no 4-jaw. I figured
about an 8" 4-jaw chuck would be good for it. The lathe seems to have a
2 1/4" x 8 tpi spindle. If I can find a decent chuck I could deal with
finding a backing plate for it to match my lathe.

If you want to email me, Gunner, hit me at rex at xertech dot net. I'm
in N. Cal so if we can find a match, shipping shouldn't be bad. Thanks
for the reply.

-Rex



what sort of spindle nose do you have?

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
  #15   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:25:53 GMT, xray
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 10:43:06 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 07:38:33 GMT, xray
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 01:46:37 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

What size are you looking for? Ive got 4 jaws coming out my ears.

Gunner

I recently picked up a lathe that has 11" swing. (I talked here about
things like replacing the belts -- I went with Fenner link belt and it
seems to be fine -- even running backwards as you mentioned.)

It came with a 3-jaw 6" chuck and a face plate, but no 4-jaw. I figured


vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
about an 8" 4-jaw chuck would be good for it. The lathe seems to have a
2 1/4" x 8 tpi spindle. If I can find a decent chuck I could deal with
finding a backing plate for it to match my lathe.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


If you want to email me, Gunner, hit me at rex at xertech dot net. I'm
in N. Cal so if we can find a match, shipping shouldn't be bad. Thanks
for the reply.

-Rex



what sort of spindle nose do you have?


I told you (see above). If it wasn't clear, that's a threaded spindle.
But I'm willing to replace the backplate if necessary.

-Rex


Ah..sorry. 2 1/4 x 8. Ill check my Stuff and see what I have. I
think..think I have one. What sort of lathe..brand name is it?

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner


  #16   Report Post  
Kingfish Stevens
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The best way to bid on eBay is to use a snipeing service like
eSnipe.com. Set whatever is the max you're willing to pay, to be
placed 5 seconds before the end of the auction. It's worked many
times for me.
Kingfish

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 17:32:23 GMT, xray
wrote:

I've been looking for a 4-jaw chuck for my lathe. Here's one that I was
following, but I think got too high for some reason:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7527214875

When I look at the bidding history, I see one person bidding up the
price with no other bids in between. I have seen this before on other
eBay auctions.

I can't figure out how this can happen. Is there something missing in
the history that is displayed or is there some other explanation.

Just curious about this weirdness that I have seen before.


  #17   Report Post  
Dave Hinz
 
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Default

On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:59:38 -0400, Kingfish Stevens wrote:
The best way to bid on eBay is to use a snipeing service like
eSnipe.com. Set whatever is the max you're willing to pay, to be
placed 5 seconds before the end of the auction. It's worked many
times for me.


Or, you could just bid on the damn auction and not try to cheat the
seller out of getting the right price. The only reason to snipe is to
pay less than you would if you were honestly bidding for the item. You
want the item, and you want to pay as little as you can for it. By
lowering yourself to using a sniping product, you're cheating the other
bidders out of the chance to bid legitimately on the item.

I'd pay extra for the option to sell items with "extend bidding by 15
minutes if any bids come in in the last 15 minutes" feature; some sites
have this. That way, the bidders all get an equal chance at an item,
and it's not a contest of who can pay for a faster network connection to
get that last-second snipe in for as little as they can pay.

I don't expect that this will change your mind, and please don't expect
that you're going to change my mind by justifying how it's not really
like that, it's really just trying to buy it for as little as possible
without giving anyone else the chance and all that.

  #18   Report Post  
Dave Hinz
 
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On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 15:29:21 GMT, Ignoramus15786 wrote:
On 8 Jul 2005 15:23:21 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:


Or, you could just bid on the damn auction and not try to cheat the
seller out of getting the right price. The only reason to snipe is to
pay less than you would if you were honestly bidding for the item. You
want the item, and you want to pay as little as you can for it. By
lowering yourself to using a sniping product, you're cheating the other
bidders out of the chance to bid legitimately on the item.


I do not see any cheating here. I submit a legitimate bid at a
legitimate moment. I do not owe the seller a duty of giving him as
much money as possible.


And yet, you're using a shady tactic to bid without giving others a
chance to make their bids.

Here's a thought - decide what you want to pay for it, put in a reserve
bid, and wait for the email. If it's more than you wanted to pay, you
wn't get it. Everyone gets to decide how much it's worth, and the guy
who bids the most gets the item. Just like a real auction, where they
don't just say "OK, I know there's 20 people out there who would have
bid more than that, but it's 10:02:47 so the item goes to you".

I realize that I'm not going to change anyone's behavior, but again, I'd
pay extra to list items if they had a "late bids extend end time"
option.


  #19   Report Post  
Modat22
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 8 Jul 2005 15:23:21 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:

On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:59:38 -0400, Kingfish Stevens wrote:
The best way to bid on eBay is to use a snipeing service like
eSnipe.com. Set whatever is the max you're willing to pay, to be
placed 5 seconds before the end of the auction. It's worked many
times for me.


Or, you could just bid on the damn auction and not try to cheat the
seller out of getting the right price. The only reason to snipe is to
pay less than you would if you were honestly bidding for the item. You
want the item, and you want to pay as little as you can for it. By
lowering yourself to using a sniping product, you're cheating the other
bidders out of the chance to bid legitimately on the item.

I'd pay extra for the option to sell items with "extend bidding by 15
minutes if any bids come in in the last 15 minutes" feature; some sites
have this. That way, the bidders all get an equal chance at an item,
and it's not a contest of who can pay for a faster network connection to
get that last-second snipe in for as little as they can pay.

I don't expect that this will change your mind, and please don't expect
that you're going to change my mind by justifying how it's not really
like that, it's really just trying to buy it for as little as possible
without giving anyone else the chance and all that.



I usually just watch the auction and place my bid 3 min before the bid
close. But I'll usually bid the highest amount I'm willing to pay.

I like beating out sniper services.
  #20   Report Post  
Jeff R
 
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"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 15:29:21 GMT, Ignoramus15786

wrote:
On 8 Jul 2005 15:23:21 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:


Or, you could just bid on the damn auction and not try to cheat the
seller out of getting the right price. The only reason to snipe is to
pay less than you would if you were honestly bidding for the item. You
want the item, and you want to pay as little as you can for it. By
lowering yourself to using a sniping product, you're cheating the other
bidders out of the chance to bid legitimately on the item.


I do not see any cheating here. I submit a legitimate bid at a
legitimate moment. I do not owe the seller a duty of giving him as
much money as possible.


And yet, you're using a shady tactic to bid without giving others a
chance to make their bids.


Rubbish.

Don't you understand how proxy bids work?

The only folk who are being robbed of a "chance" are those who are too silly
to bid their final, honest amount - the aptly named
"clueless-newby-increment-bidders".

Nothing wrong with nudging them out.

--
Jeff R.




  #21   Report Post  
Dave Hinz
 
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On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 02:39:30 +1000, Jeff R wrote:

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...


And yet, you're using a shady tactic to bid without giving others a
chance to make their bids.


Rubbish.
Don't you understand how proxy bids work?


Yes, I do. Sniping is an intentional way to deny people who use it
properly from having an equal chance to win the item.

The only folk who are being robbed of a "chance" are those who are too silly
to bid their final, honest amount - the aptly named
"clueless-newby-increment-bidders".


Which is why I said "bid what you want to pay and see what happens".
Bid your final, honest amount, and if it's worth more than you want,
then you won't get it.

Nothing wrong with nudging them out.


And, nothing wrong with wanting an action that ends when the bidders
have all had an equal chance to decide when it's over.


  #22   Report Post  
jk
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dave Hinz wrote:


Or, you could just bid on the damn auction and not try to cheat the
seller out of getting the right price.


It is NOT cheating the seller, in the slightest. If he wanted to get
more, he has the option of a higher starting price, or a reserve
price. [I do think reserve prices are dishonest crap, and generally
wont bid on auctions with them]

The only reason to snipe is to
pay less than you would if you were honestly bidding for the item. You
want the item, and you want to pay as little as you can for it. By
lowering yourself to using a sniping product, you're cheating the other
bidders out of the chance to bid legitimately on the item.


I do not see any cheating here. I submit a legitimate bid at a
legitimate moment. I do not owe the seller a duty of giving him as
much money as possible.


And yet, you're using a shady tactic to bid without giving others a
chance to make their bids.


That's horse****, every one had a chance to make their bids, they
CHOOSE to snipe and perhaps miss. NO ONE can snipe you out of winning,
if you bid the maximum amount you are willing to spend, as early as
possible. And doing that you don't get caught up in the heat of the
moment, spending $40 for an item that retails for 39.




Here's a thought - decide what you want to pay for it, put in a reserve
bid, and wait for the email. If it's more than you wanted to pay, you
wn't get it. Everyone gets to decide how much it's worth, and the guy
who bids the most gets the item. Just like a real auction, where they
don't just say "OK, I know there's 20 people out there who would have
bid more than that, but it's 10:02:47 so the item goes to you".

I realize that I'm not going to change anyone's behavior, but again, I'd
pay extra to list items if they had a "late bids extend end time"
option.


jk
  #23   Report Post  
D Murphy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Jeff R" wrote in
u:


"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 15:29:21 GMT, Ignoramus15786

wrote:
On 8 Jul 2005 15:23:21 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:


Or, you could just bid on the damn auction and not try to cheat
the seller out of getting the right price. The only reason to
snipe is to pay less than you would if you were honestly bidding
for the item. You want the item, and you want to pay as little as
you can for it. By lowering yourself to using a sniping product,
you're cheating the other bidders out of the chance to bid
legitimately on the item.

I do not see any cheating here. I submit a legitimate bid at a
legitimate moment. I do not owe the seller a duty of giving him as
much money as possible.


And yet, you're using a shady tactic to bid without giving others a
chance to make their bids.


Rubbish.

Don't you understand how proxy bids work?

The only folk who are being robbed of a "chance" are those who are too
silly to bid their final, honest amount - the aptly named
"clueless-newby-increment-bidders".

Nothing wrong with nudging them out.


The problem I have with last minute sniping, is that often you end up
passing on an otherwise identical item, only to be out bid in the last
five seconds on the auction you're in. Meanwhile the other item sells for
less than you were willing to pay for it. Had I known some moron was
going to pay too much for this item, I would have had time to bid on the
auction that already ended.

I bid my maximum when I see the item I want. The way I see it is that if
I get outbid, then someone paid too much.

While we're on the subject of Ebay, the one thing that really ****es me
off is when a seller is listing say 5 identical items in seperate
auctions. So I bid on one, then some dope comes along and bids in $1.00
increments until he beats my bid. Meanwhile the other four items have no
bids. So now I have to start all over again.


--

Dan

  #24   Report Post  
Dave Hinz
 
Posts: n/a
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On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:55:55 -0700, jk wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:


Or, you could just bid on the damn auction and not try to cheat the
seller out of getting the right price.


It is NOT cheating the seller, in the slightest.


So, you're doing it so you will pay _more_ for his item? Oh please,
tell me how you come up with that one.

And yet, you're using a shady tactic to bid without giving others a
chance to make their bids.


That's horse****, every one had a chance to make their bids, they
CHOOSE to snipe and perhaps miss. NO ONE can snipe you out of winning,
if you bid the maximum amount you are willing to spend, as early as
possible. And doing that you don't get caught up in the heat of the
moment, spending $40 for an item that retails for 39.


And then, why do you snipe exactly? Since you can get what you want for
what you want to pay for it if you just bid that amount, as you suggest
others do?

Face it - you want to see how high it goes, and bid just high enough
above that to get it, without giving anyone else a chance to do the same
thing to you. If you claim that that's not your motivation, you're
either lying or delusional.

  #25   Report Post  
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
 
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"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:55:55 -0700, jk wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:


Or, you could just bid on the damn auction and not try to cheat the
seller out of getting the right price.


It is NOT cheating the seller, in the slightest.



I don't understand any of this. Any auction, including EBay, allows the
seller to establish a minimum price below which he/she will not relinquish
the item. Even a "no minimum" auction establishes the minimum price by
inference. Anyone auctioning anything is automatically establishing that
they're willing to accept the highest bid - regardless of how low - so long
as it is greater than their minimum required. You CAN'T cheat the seller.
He's already stated that he's willing to accept YOUR "right price".

LLoyd




  #26   Report Post  
Dave Hinz
 
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On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 18:36:38 GMT, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

I don't understand any of this. Any auction, including EBay, allows the
seller to establish a minimum price below which he/she will not relinquish
the item. Even a "no minimum" auction establishes the minimum price by
inference. Anyone auctioning anything is automatically establishing that
they're willing to accept the highest bid - regardless of how low - so long
as it is greater than their minimum required. You CAN'T cheat the seller.
He's already stated that he's willing to accept YOUR "right price".


If you use sniping to keep the seller from what he'd get if everyone had
an equal chance to bid on the item, you're getting the item for less
than you would have paid otherwise. The seller, therefore, is getting
less than he would have otherwise.

People who are sniping are doing it so they can outbid the guy with the
top bid, at the last minute, so nobody else can do the same thing to
them that they're doing to others. Like I said before, obviously those
who use it are OK with that. I know it's going to happen, but I'm not
going to let a claim that it's not done for exactly that reason go
unchallenged.

  #27   Report Post  
Clif Holland
 
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When I sell I put a minimum, anything above that is a plus.

When I buy I want the minimum price, most of the time I just list my max and
go on. Sometimes I use sniping but I still don't list more than my max. If
the bid goes over my max be it in the first hour or last second, Oh
Well.....

Sounds like someone has been beaten by snipers...

--

Clif Holland, KA5IPF
www.avvid.com


"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 18:36:38 GMT, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
wrote:

I don't understand any of this. Any auction, including EBay, allows the
seller to establish a minimum price below which he/she will not
relinquish
the item. Even a "no minimum" auction establishes the minimum price by
inference. Anyone auctioning anything is automatically establishing
that
they're willing to accept the highest bid - regardless of how low - so
long
as it is greater than their minimum required. You CAN'T cheat the
seller.
He's already stated that he's willing to accept YOUR "right price".


If you use sniping to keep the seller from what he'd get if everyone had
an equal chance to bid on the item, you're getting the item for less
than you would have paid otherwise. The seller, therefore, is getting
less than he would have otherwise.

People who are sniping are doing it so they can outbid the guy with the
top bid, at the last minute, so nobody else can do the same thing to
them that they're doing to others. Like I said before, obviously those
who use it are OK with that. I know it's going to happen, but I'm not
going to let a claim that it's not done for exactly that reason go
unchallenged.



  #28   Report Post  
Dave Hinz
 
Posts: n/a
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On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 18:51:53 GMT, xray wrote:
On 8 Jul 2005 18:22:17 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:

Face it - you want to see how high it goes, and bid just high enough
above that to get it, without giving anyone else a chance to do the same
thing to you. If you claim that that's not your motivation, you're
either lying or delusional.


Are you primarily a seller?


About the same of both. How would that matter? It's either being done
to pay as little for something as possible without giving others the
chance to do the same, or it's not. Doesn't matter if I'm the buyer
getting edged out, or the seller getting shortchanged.

Face it -- my goal is to get something that meets or exceeds my quality
requirements for as little money as possible. Before eBay, I had a
couple of buys locally of equipment. I bought an electronic thingy for
$5 that was regularly going for $650. I didn't feel a bit guilty. I
assumed it probably was blown, so looked at it as a lottery ticket and I
won.


And yet, you didn't shove someone out of the way to buy it, did you?

Now with almost everthing like that finding its way to eBay, you are
fighting every bozo in the world who happens to be paying attention at
the time. In my opinion, putting out your max bid early, just tends to
give people time to get emotional and bid up the price to the max of
what it should be worth or (frequently) higher.


So, you're sniping to get the item as low as possible, without giving
somone a chance to outbid you. Yes, we've established that.

Do you ever watch the TV show "The Price is Right"? I bet when one
person says, "600 dollars, Bob.", and the next person says, "$601", you
go nuts. It's allowed, but it's JUST NOT RIGHT, damn it.


Well, haven't watched it in years, but yea, that's exactly the
asshole-ish behavior that sniping is.

  #29   Report Post  
jk
 
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Dave Hinz wrote:

I wrote
It is NOT cheating the seller, in the slightest.


So, you're doing it so you will pay _more_ for his item? Oh please,
tell me how you come up with that one.

You make no sense what so ever here.
THe seller is not cheated because he is willing to sell at whatever
price he gets above the starting (or reserve ) price. He enters a
"binding contract" to do so.


And yet, you're using a shady tactic to bid without giving others a
chance to make their bids.


That's horse****, every one had a chance to make their bids, they
CHOOSE to snipe and perhaps miss. NO ONE can snipe you out of winning,
if you bid the maximum amount you are willing to spend, as early as
possible. And doing that you don't get caught up in the heat of the
moment, spending $40 for an item that retails for 39.


And then, why do you snipe exactly? Since you can get what you want for
what you want to pay for it if you just bid that amount, as you suggest
others do?


What in the world makes you think I snipe??????? Just because I don't
think it is "shady"


Face it - you want to see how high it goes, and bid just high enough
above that to get it, without giving anyone else a chance to do the same
thing to you. If you claim that that's not your motivation, you're
either lying or delusional.

As I said, I bid the most I am willing to pay for an item at that
time. If later I have reason to increase that bid (such as loosing
another auction) I might increase it, but that is rare.


jk
  #30   Report Post  
jk
 
Posts: n/a
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Dave Hinz wrote:



If you use sniping to keep the seller from what he'd get if everyone had
an equal chance to bid on the item, you're getting the item for less
than you would have paid otherwise. The seller, therefore, is getting
less than he would have otherwise.

Every one still has an equal chance! Everyone knows when the auction
ends, including the seller. If he wanted a different type of auction,
he is free to find one.

I do think the idea someone raised, of extending the auction by 15 min
if there are bids in the last few min to be a good one.
jk


  #31   Report Post  
jk
 
Posts: n/a
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Dave Hinz wrote:



About the same of both. How would that matter? It's either being done
to pay as little for something as possible without giving others the
chance to do the same, or it's not. Doesn't matter if I'm the buyer
getting edged out, or the seller getting shortchanged.

How do you get "edged out"???? You either bid what you were willing
to pay, or YOU were being a cheap ass "shady" buyer.




And yet, you didn't shove someone out of the way to buy it, did you?

Snipers don't "shove" any one of the way.





So, you're sniping to get the item as low as possible, without giving
somone a chance to outbid you. Yes, we've established that.

Do you even get that you are talking to several people?? Most of whom
haven't said that they snipe.



Do you ever watch the TV show "The Price is Right"? I bet when one
person says, "600 dollars, Bob.", and the next person says, "$601", you
go nuts. It's allowed, but it's JUST NOT RIGHT, damn it.


Well, haven't watched it in years, but yea, that's exactly the
asshole-ish behavior that sniping is.


And exactly what $ amount wouldn't be "asshole-ish behavior "??
Perhaps that person also thought the price was 600, Should she say
700 just to keep YOU happy?


jk
  #32   Report Post  
SteveB
 
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Holy crap, people. For a group of adults, there are some really dumb as
dirt people here.

First, with any system, the object is to use and manipulate the system to
get the desired result. In this case, for your bid to win.

If it is done with sniping, sign up for a snipe program. I use bidnapper,
and win 8 out of 10 things I bid for. BUT, I bid what I will pay for the
item, and lots of times, it comes in for less.

I can tell you LOTS of ways to get deals on ebay. I am an oldtime ebayer,
both selling and buying. I will tell you only one, and then listen to all
the ****ing and moaning about how wrong this is .........

Do a search on something you want. Arrange the hits with the NEWEST LISTED
FIRST. Now cruise through there and find the things that idiot sellers have
put in with a severely low Buy-It-Now price. Buy them, if you want.
Perfectly legal. Perfectly moral. Perfectly ethical.

Sheesh, people. Learn how to work the system, or just don't participate at
all. But all this ****ing and moaning is ridiculous.

Sheesh.

Steve


  #33   Report Post  
DoN. Nichols
 
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In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 02:39:30 +1000, Jeff R wrote:

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...


And yet, you're using a shady tactic to bid without giving others a
chance to make their bids.


Rubbish.
Don't you understand how proxy bids work?


Yes, I do. Sniping is an intentional way to deny people who use it
properly from having an equal chance to win the item.

The only folk who are being robbed of a "chance" are those who are too silly
to bid their final, honest amount - the aptly named
"clueless-newby-increment-bidders".


Which is why I said "bid what you want to pay and see what happens".
Bid your final, honest amount, and if it's worth more than you want,
then you won't get it.


And all the other bidders are free to put in a similar bid,
early or at the last moment. Only a fool would put in a large serious
bid early, simply because idiots keep pecking away a few dollars at
a time until they top your bid -- even if they originally had no
intention of paying that much.

Nothing wrong with nudging them out.


And, nothing wrong with wanting an action that ends when the bidders
have all had an equal chance to decide when it's over.


I rather liked the "spot bids" at government auctions. The
announcement:

"Now opening bids on lot 135!"

would be followed by a group of runners picking up the bid cards, with
no bid amounts stated aloud.

Then would follow:

"Closing bids on lot 135!"

A few moments of shuffling through the cards, and a final announcement:

"Lot 135 is awarded to bidder 332"
"Now opening bids on lot 136!"

This is not that different from eBay's system *with* sniping, except
that early bidders on eBay have their bids partially exposed before
closing. Without sniping, a serious (early) bid can still lose to
someone playing the "incremental pecking" game.

As a buyer in an eBay auction, you find and use the strategy
which maximizes your chance to win, just as in any other auction.

And a sniper can *still* lose to someone who has put in an early
bid for more, so it is only the ones who incrementally peck their way up
the price range who lose -- the ones who have not yet learned what
strategy works on eBay auctions.

As a seller, you still have the option to put in a reserve, and
with that, even a last-minute sniper cannot win your item unless s/he
bids something for which you are willing to release the item (as
determined by your reserve).

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
  #34   Report Post  
DoN. Nichols
 
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In article ,
D Murphy wrote:
Ignoramus15786 wrote in
:

The problem I have with last minute sniping, is that often you end up
passing on an otherwise identical item, only to be out bid in the
last five seconds on the auction you're in. Meanwhile the other item
sells for less than you were willing to pay for it.


Then, why did you not bid more onthe first item?


Usually the first item I bid on is on a nine or seven day listing, then
another comes along at a seven, five or three day listing. Or the item
ending first is listed wrong (that's when you can get a bargain)and I
didn't come across it until after I've bid on the other.


So -- that is one argument for postponing your bid until closer
to the closing of the auction. It gives you the freedom to move to an
alternate target without the risk of getting both. Only *after* that
earlier-closing auction is closed is the time for you to consider making
your bid on the later-closing time. And the closer to the closing time
you wait, the more freedom you have to shift your attentions to a
(possibly) better item.

Had I known some moron was going to pay too much for this item, I
would have had time to bid on the auction that already ended.


That could hardly be overcome if that "moron" bid 10 min before the
end of auction, as opposed to 10 seconds.


True.


Though, the earlier he outbids you, the more chance you get to
find and bid on the others.

It's a problem to any auctions, you pass one item and then someone
turns up who is willing to bid more for another item.


Especially on Ebay. The second item always seems to be in better shape
too.


:-)

I bid my maximum when I see the item I want. The way I see it is that
if I get outbid, then someone paid too much.


That's a good way to see, however, if you bid early, you give out
information that has value.


Not really. No one knows what you've actually bid but you.


1) You've given out the information that you are interested in the
auction, and thus the opponent knows that he needs to bid more
than he perhaps would have without this information.

2) Your bid may be shown only as how much it takes to overcome
other bids already out there, but it also opens it to someone
incrementally bidding, and thus pushing your *committed* bid up
until he either gives up, or your maximum is passed, and it is
how his (at least until someone else comes in and bids even
more.) If he does this early, after your early bid, the chance
of someone else doing the same to him is greater -- of from
looking at the increments of his bid tries, of predicting just
how much it will take to win it from him. Perhaps all to be
lost to a sniper with a serious bid.

I've won items
that I bid on as soon as they were listed, and had a dozen or more bids
at the end. The other thing to remember is that if there are two
identical bids, the first one in wins.


Agreed, so sniping has its own risks, and you have to balance
them out to determine which is better for you as a bidder. (Partially
controlled by how badly you want the item in question.)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
  #35   Report Post  
Bert
 
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Dave,

You seem to think it's OK for the seller to want to get as much as
possible for an item, but it's not OK for a buyer to want to pay as
little as possible, even though both play within the rules. Where is
the fairness in that? Face it, an auction is a game of chance. The
reason most sellers use the auction format is because they hope people
will bid irrationally and pay more than the item is worth; likewise,
buyers typically participate in an auction because they hope they can
get something for less than it's worth. That's the nature of the
auction game; it's not about trying to buy or sell as close as
possible to the item's true worth. People interested in buying or
selling at a fair value would use a fixed price format (e.g., ebay's
buy-it-now option) or a negotiated price format, not an auction
format. (Rare or unique items for which a fair price is difficult to
determine are an exception, but the vast majority of items sold on
ebay are neither rare nor difficult to value.)

As for all buyers having an equal chance, someone in the auction will
always have an advantage, whether it's a fatter wallet or more time to
spend at auctions or a better bidding strategy or even a willingness
to bid more than an item is worth. As far as advantages go, sniping
doesn't really offer that much. In the first place, anyone is free to
use a sniping service or place a bid at the last minute, so everyone
has "an equal chance to bid on the item", to use your phrase. And as
others have pointed out, with proxy bidding there's no way a sniper
can beat you unless either (a) he pays more than you think the item is
worth, or (b) you yourself were trying to buy the item for less than
you think it's worth (i.e., attempting to "cheat" the seller). So
there really is no unfairness to other bidders.

Since anyone is free at any point during the auction to bid the
maximum they're willing to pay, the only thing sniping really does is
reduce the chances of hysterical bidding near the end of the auction
that could result in someone paying much more than the item is worth.
I don't see why you think that reducing the seller's chance to cash in
on bidding hysteria -- i.e., to make more than the item is worth --
is somehow cheating him.

What it comes down to is that an ebay auction and a traditional
auction are two different games. It's rather pointless to complain
that ebay doesn't follow the rules of traditional auctions, just as it
would be pointless to complain that pro football doesn't follow the
rules of college football. It's also rather pointless to complain
about people doing everything possible within the rules to win the
game, or to label it cheating when they do so. You might just as well
complain that a seller who uses a seven-day auction or who sets his
auction to end in the middle of the day is "cheating" the buyer out of
more money than he would have paid if it had been a three-day auction
ending in the middle of the night. The thing is, it's not cheating if
you're playing WITHIN THE RULES.

Your idea about extending the auction is interesting, but I doubt that
it would eliminate last-minute bidding or sniping; it might simply
provide an advantage to a different set of players: those who have
enough spare time to sit around for one fifteen-minute period after
another, increasing their bid incrementally at the end of each period,
waiting for everyone else to become bored or frustrated or to run out
of time.

One final point: The growth (or should I say, explosion) of ebay
suggests that sellers who feel cheated by the ebay rules comprise a
very small minority.

Bert

Dave Hinz wrote:

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 18:36:38 GMT, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

I don't understand any of this. Any auction, including EBay, allows the
seller to establish a minimum price below which he/she will not relinquish
the item. Even a "no minimum" auction establishes the minimum price by
inference. Anyone auctioning anything is automatically establishing that
they're willing to accept the highest bid - regardless of how low - so long
as it is greater than their minimum required. You CAN'T cheat the seller.
He's already stated that he's willing to accept YOUR "right price".


If you use sniping to keep the seller from what he'd get if everyone had
an equal chance to bid on the item, you're getting the item for less
than you would have paid otherwise. The seller, therefore, is getting
less than he would have otherwise.

People who are sniping are doing it so they can outbid the guy with the
top bid, at the last minute, so nobody else can do the same thing to
them that they're doing to others. Like I said before, obviously those
who use it are OK with that. I know it's going to happen, but I'm not
going to let a claim that it's not done for exactly that reason go
unchallenged.




  #36   Report Post  
SteveB
 
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I believe there is something that every child should learn by the age of
five.

Life is not fair, and there is no justice in the world.

But, we get these ideas that when something goes wrong, we can cry out, and
all will be mended.

"He took my truck."

"She hit me."

We go to adults seeking fairness and justice. From there, we go to adult
figures or authority figures to get settlement of an issue.

Those who find out very early that life is not fair, and there is no justice
in the world do much better than those who don't. They don't live their
lives wearing Pollyanna glasses and spending so much time crying and
snivelling.

It's not that ebay isn't fair.

People are people.

HTH, but I doubt it.

Steve


  #37   Report Post  
Dave Mundt
 
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Greetings and Salutations...

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 17:32:23 GMT, xray
wrote:

I've been looking for a 4-jaw chuck for my lathe. Here's one that I was
following, but I think got too high for some reason:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7527214875

When I look at the bidding history, I see one person bidding up the
price with no other bids in between. I have seen this before on other
eBay auctions.

I can't figure out how this can happen. Is there something missing in
the history that is displayed or is there some other explanation.

Just curious about this weirdness that I have seen before.


As has been explained elsewhere, that is the way the proxy
bidding by the system works. Since the smallest timeslice is
a second or so, it simply LOOKS as if there were multiple bids
with no other bids in between. I suspect that if Ebay cared,
they could tweak the software to add a sequence number to ensure
that even "immediate" proxy bids would get listed with the
correct interleave.
As for the flame wars following on Sniping...I have to
say that I tend to snipe, but, mainly because I have become
convinced that there is a cadre of bidders who search for the
auctions I am bidding on, and, immediately run up the selling
price to retail or more. It has happened QUITE a number of
times when I have bid a max amount well before the end of
an auction.
As for whether or not sniping is an attempt to defraud
the seller...This sounds more like complaining about not
being able to sell stuff for as much as one would wish...which
is NOT an Ebay problem. As things stand now, there are three
ways to get the amount one might want for an item:
1) Sell it retail on Amazon, or a personal website, and
don't use Ebay at all.
2) Set a reserve price on the item.
3) Set a minimum opening bid.
The alternative is to start with a low opening bid, and
hope that competition will kick in, so that one or more
folks will decide that the item IS their's, and, they will
have it no matter what they have to bid.
As a seller, my goal is to make the item so sexy that
several folks will decide their lives will be incomplete unless
they have it. This ensures that a bidding war will kick in.
As a buyer, my goal is to get the item for as close
to free as is possible. It is the same mindset that I have when
I go to the boneyard at a hamfest, or a fleamarket. I don't
care what the seller has listed as a price. I will decide
what I want to pay, and offer that. If the seller is more
interested in taking cash home than the items they brought,
they may take it. Alternatively, they may refuse...no problem.
The good news is that no matter what you see on Ebay
now...there will be another one coming down the road, so if
one does not win THIS one...there will not only be another
chance down the road, but, there will be one FEWER person
competing for the item.
Regards
Dave Mundt


  #38   Report Post  
Dave Hinz
 
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On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:48:07 -0700, jk wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

I wrote
It is NOT cheating the seller, in the slightest.


So, you're doing it so you will pay _more_ for his item? Oh please,
tell me how you come up with that one.


You make no sense what so ever here.


How so?

THe seller is not cheated because he is willing to sell at whatever
price he gets above the starting (or reserve ) price. He enters a
"binding contract" to do so.


Yes. And if you're manipulating the system to make sure that the
winning price is lower than it would be if everyone had a chance to bid,
then you're lowering that end price. Do you dispute that?

And then, why do you snipe exactly? Since you can get what you want for
what you want to pay for it if you just bid that amount, as you suggest
others do?


What in the world makes you think I snipe??????? Just because I don't
think it is "shady"


Right, you're defending and describing it but you don't do it. Gotcha.

Face it - you want to see how high it goes, and bid just high enough
above that to get it, without giving anyone else a chance to do the same
thing to you. If you claim that that's not your motivation, you're
either lying or delusional.


As I said, I bid the most I am willing to pay for an item at that
time. If later I have reason to increase that bid (such as loosing
another auction) I might increase it, but that is rare.


And by sniping, you deny other people of the ability to do exactly that.

  #39   Report Post  
Dave Hinz
 
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On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:51:43 -0700, jk wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:



If you use sniping to keep the seller from what he'd get if everyone had
an equal chance to bid on the item, you're getting the item for less
than you would have paid otherwise. The seller, therefore, is getting
less than he would have otherwise.


Every one still has an equal chance! Everyone knows when the auction
ends, including the seller. If he wanted a different type of auction,
he is free to find one.


Everyone does -not- have an equal chance. The snipers know damn well
taht the goal is to get in the last bid and not give others that chance
to still win the item.

I do think the idea someone raised, of extending the auction by 15 min
if there are bids in the last few min to be a good one.


Yes, I'm the one who made that point.

  #40   Report Post  
Dave Hinz
 
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On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:58:16 -0700, jk wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

About the same of both. How would that matter? It's either being done
to pay as little for something as possible without giving others the
chance to do the same, or it's not. Doesn't matter if I'm the buyer
getting edged out, or the seller getting shortchanged.


How do you get "edged out"???? You either bid what you were willing
to pay, or YOU were being a cheap ass "shady" buyer.


Transactions take time. The sniper gets in last-minute or last-second,
there's no time for the next transaction. That's why they snipe.

And yet, you didn't shove someone out of the way to buy it, did you?


Snipers don't "shove" any one of the way.


See the above response.

So, you're sniping to get the item as low as possible, without giving
somone a chance to outbid you. Yes, we've established that.


Do you even get that you are talking to several people?? Most of whom
haven't said that they snipe.


Yes, I understand the whole "name on the post" thing, thank you. An
awful lot of people defend sniping, and then weasel with "Well, I never
said _I_ did it". They also don't say they don't do it.

Well, haven't watched it in years, but yea, that's exactly the
asshole-ish behavior that sniping is.


And exactly what $ amount wouldn't be "asshole-ish behavior "??
Perhaps that person also thought the price was 600, Should she say
700 just to keep YOU happy?


Well, 602 would still be being an asshole, 625 wouldn't, I would guess.
I haven't given it much thought (shrug?).

Like I said. People are gonna keep doing it, and since most of what I
sell doesn't fit on eBay anyway, I go to a couple sites where I can
extend the auction if late bids come in. I feel it's the most fair to
the bidders _and_ the seller, when everyone who wants to bid, can bid,
until the price is determined by the desires of the bidders, not a
contest of who sneaks a bid in at the last second.

Dave Hinz

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