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  #1   Report Post  
Proctologically Violated©®
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sweating ball valves

Awl--

Hopefully my last plumbing Q! Man, am I buried here!

I have previously screwed up sweating ball valves, and frankly don't see how
the teflon seals withstand the heat, even with "good technique", which mine
most likely is not, given the rare plumbing that I do.

So what I do is buy threaded ball valves, and separately sweat a suitable
length of copper pipe to copper adapters, screw those in to the threaded
valves, and continue sweating some safe "thermal distance" from sed ball
valve.
Sometimes I'll even use a union, depending...

Am I bein a wus?? Is there a more reliable way to sweat ball valves?
I know there is some precedence for this, as I have seen sweat valves w/
removable flange-type ends, presumably for just this problem--but of course
they cost big(ger) $$.

In general, I sort of mix threaded w/ copper, like for caps: Instead of
sweating a cap to a tee, I'll first sweat an adapter, and then screw on a
threaded cap--makes subsequent connections easier, I think. I always found
sweating previously-wet copper "in line" a real pita.

Also, along the lines of ball valves, I noticed diff. 1/2 threaded valves
have diff IDs!
Gas ball valves have the smallest, but a nice thumb-handle. Can I use these
for water, as well?
Water ball valves have the longer handle, but even these have diff. IDs,
which I find surprising. Any idears on why? Just diff. mfrs?

A'ight, thanks! I hope this it, fer plumbing!!

----------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll


  #2   Report Post  
Lane
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...
Awl--

Hopefully my last plumbing Q! Man, am I buried here!

I have previously screwed up sweating ball valves, and frankly don't see
how the teflon seals withstand the heat, even with "good technique", which
mine most likely is not, given the rare plumbing that I do.

So what I do is buy threaded ball valves, and separately sweat a suitable
length of copper pipe to copper adapters, screw those in to the threaded
valves, and continue sweating some safe "thermal distance" from sed ball
valve.
Sometimes I'll even use a union, depending...

Am I bein a wus?? Is there a more reliable way to sweat ball valves?
I know there is some precedence for this, as I have seen sweat valves w/
removable flange-type ends, presumably for just this problem--but of
course they cost big(ger) $$.

In general, I sort of mix threaded w/ copper, like for caps: Instead of
sweating a cap to a tee, I'll first sweat an adapter, and then screw on a
threaded cap--makes subsequent connections easier, I think. I always
found sweating previously-wet copper "in line" a real pita.

Also, along the lines of ball valves, I noticed diff. 1/2 threaded valves
have diff IDs!
Gas ball valves have the smallest, but a nice thumb-handle. Can I use
these for water, as well?
Water ball valves have the longer handle, but even these have diff. IDs,
which I find surprising. Any idears on why? Just diff. mfrs?

A'ight, thanks! I hope this it, fer plumbing!!

----------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll


I'm going to be watching the answers on this one, I've worried about it also
and ended up using threaded ones.
Lane


  #3   Report Post  
Proctologically Violated©®
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I feel better already!
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll



"Lane" lane (no spam) at copperaccents dot com wrote in message
...

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...
Awl--

Hopefully my last plumbing Q! Man, am I buried here!

I have previously screwed up sweating ball valves, and frankly don't see
how the teflon seals withstand the heat, even with "good technique",
which mine most likely is not, given the rare plumbing that I do.

So what I do is buy threaded ball valves, and separately sweat a suitable
length of copper pipe to copper adapters, screw those in to the threaded
valves, and continue sweating some safe "thermal distance" from sed ball
valve.
Sometimes I'll even use a union, depending...

Am I bein a wus?? Is there a more reliable way to sweat ball valves?
I know there is some precedence for this, as I have seen sweat valves w/
removable flange-type ends, presumably for just this problem--but of
course they cost big(ger) $$.

In general, I sort of mix threaded w/ copper, like for caps: Instead of
sweating a cap to a tee, I'll first sweat an adapter, and then screw on a
threaded cap--makes subsequent connections easier, I think. I always
found sweating previously-wet copper "in line" a real pita.

Also, along the lines of ball valves, I noticed diff. 1/2 threaded valves
have diff IDs!
Gas ball valves have the smallest, but a nice thumb-handle. Can I use
these for water, as well?
Water ball valves have the longer handle, but even these have diff. IDs,
which I find surprising. Any idears on why? Just diff. mfrs?

A'ight, thanks! I hope this it, fer plumbing!!

----------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll


I'm going to be watching the answers on this one, I've worried about it
also and ended up using threaded ones.
Lane



  #4   Report Post  
Steve
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Howdy,

I'm going to be watching the answers on this one


Me too. I successfully installed a ball valve recently, only to find an
annoying little leak (about a drip or two per day).

Steve
  #5   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , Proctologically Violated©® says...

Am I bein a wus??


IMO yes. I was buying 1/2 inch ball valves by the box for a while
after we bought our house. I sweated them all in without taking
them apart and removing the teflon seal, and they all work quite
well.

The teflon is a pretty good high temperature material. Just
don't go totally crazy with the torch.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================


  #6   Report Post  
Ken Davey
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
Awl--

Hopefully my last plumbing Q! Man, am I buried here!

I have previously screwed up sweating ball valves, and frankly don't
see how the teflon seals withstand the heat, even with "good
technique", which mine most likely is not, given the rare plumbing
that I do.
So what I do is buy threaded ball valves, and separately sweat a
suitable length of copper pipe to copper adapters, screw those in to
the threaded valves, and continue sweating some safe "thermal
distance" from sed ball valve.
Sometimes I'll even use a union, depending...

Am I bein a wus?? Is there a more reliable way to sweat ball valves?
I know there is some precedence for this, as I have seen sweat valves
w/ removable flange-type ends, presumably for just this problem--but
of course they cost big(ger) $$.

In general, I sort of mix threaded w/ copper, like for caps: Instead
of sweating a cap to a tee, I'll first sweat an adapter, and then
screw on a threaded cap--makes subsequent connections easier, I
think. I always found sweating previously-wet copper "in line" a
real pita.
Also, along the lines of ball valves, I noticed diff. 1/2 threaded
valves have diff IDs!
Gas ball valves have the smallest, but a nice thumb-handle. Can I
use these for water, as well?
Water ball valves have the longer handle, but even these have diff.
IDs, which I find surprising. Any idears on why? Just diff. mfrs?

A'ight, thanks! I hope this it, fer plumbing!!

----------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll


Take them apart; remove the fiddly bits; solder; re-asemble.
Works for me.
Ken.


  #7   Report Post  
DeepDiver
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...

I have previously screwed up sweating ball valves, and frankly
don't see how the teflon seals withstand the heat, even with
"good technique", which mine most likely is not, given the rare
plumbing that I do.


The melting point of Teflon ranges from 500 deg F (Teflon FEP) to 621 deg F
(Teflon PTFE). From a site on the properties of Teflon:

"The melting point of Teflon PTFE is one of the highest in organic polymer
chemistry. Due to the strength of the carbon-fluorine and carbon-carbon
single bonds, appreciable thermal energy must be sorbed by the polymers
before thermal degradation."

The melting point of typical lead-free solder ranges from 450 - 495 deg F.
Therefore, if you apply the heat correctly, your solder will melt before the
Teflon is damaged.


I am not a professional plumber. But I've done a lot of plumbing repairs and
upgrades. This is what I do:

1. Ensure that your parts are CLEAN! Use those special wire pipe cleaners to
make sure you have nice shiny copper at both mating areas of the joint.

2. Apply a thin coat of water-soluble flux to both mating areas.

3. Fit the parts together. Make sure your geometry is correct.

4. Open the valve you are going to sweat so that hot air/steam can escape.

5. I like to wrap a wet (but not dripping) towel around the valve mechanism.
Probably not necessasary, but it also helps you avoid charring the rubber
coated handle if you accidentally pass your flame over it. Just be sure to
keep the towel off/away from the joint you are sweating, otherwise you'll
never get it hot enough.

6. Sweat the joint with your torch. Use a high heat flame. (If too low a
flame, you will just dump heat into your pipes over a long period of time
without the joint ever getting hot enough to melt the solder. What you want
is high localized heat at the joint, before the rest of your pipe/valve has
a chance to get really hot.) Focus 90% of your heat on the pipe leading into
the valve.

7. As you're heating the joint, occassionally pull the flame away and touch
the tip of your (lead-free) solder to the edge of the joint. If the temp is
right, the solder will melt and instantly wick into the joint. If it sticks
or doesn't immediately start to flow, it's not hot enough: take away the
solder and apply more heat from the torch.

8 It doesn't take much solder to make a good connection. Avoid the
temptation to flood the joint with solder. You should just see a tiny silver
fillet around the circumference of the joint.

9. Allow the joint to cool and solidify before attempting to move or do
other work on the pipe.

10. If you have difficulty getting the solder to flow or if you have drips
and/or blobs of solder, there are four possible culprits: joint not clean,
not enough flux, not enough heat, or too much solder.



So what I do is buy threaded ball valves, and separately sweat a
suitable length of copper pipe to copper adapters, screw those in
to the threaded valves, and continue sweating some safe
"thermal distance" from sed ball valve.
Sometimes I'll even use a union, depending...

In general, I sort of mix threaded w/ copper, like for caps:
Instead of sweating a cap to a tee, I'll first sweat an adapter,
and then screw on a threaded cap--makes subsequent connections
easier, I think.


Each threaded adapter you place in your system increases the cost,
complexity, time to do the job, and the possibility of leaking. If you
practice and learn to solder correctly, you can save a lot (in terms of
money, time, and headache) by eliminating these extra joints.


I always found sweating previously-wet copper
"in line" a real pita.


This really isn't that difficult. First, make sure your joints are very
clean. Water deposits, scale, old flux, and old oxidised solder must be
cleaned away. You should have a bight shiny silver joint. (It's silver from
the *now clean* old solder. It is neither neccessary nor desirable to remove
all the old solder down to the base copper pipe. The old solder provides a
pre-tinned joint for you.) Next, make sure the joint is bone dry. You may
have to drain all the upstream and/or downstream pipes to make sure no water
trickles into your joint as you're trying to solder it (sometimes it helps
to blow air into the pipes). Plumbing supply shops sell dissolvable capsules
that you can press into the pipe to stop any water from getting into your
joint as you're soldering, but an old plumber's trick is to use the soft
white center from a piece of bread to do the same thing. Frankly, I've never
needed to do either: i've just made sure the pipes are well-drained and that
the pipe near my joint is wiped dry.


Regards,
Michael


  #8   Report Post  
AL
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I watched my plumber install one. He used his Mapp torch and sweated the
ball valve like it was an ordinary fitting. I didn't see him do anything
unusual. When I did my own, I wrapped a damp rag around it, and also used
Mapp. If using propane, I think you have to heat it longer, and that makes
it more likely for the Teflon to be damaged.

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...
Awl--

Hopefully my last plumbing Q! Man, am I buried here!

I have previously screwed up sweating ball valves, and frankly don't see
how the teflon seals withstand the heat, even with "good technique", which
mine most likely is not, given the rare plumbing that I do.

So what I do is buy threaded ball valves, and separately sweat a suitable
length of copper pipe to copper adapters, screw those in to the threaded
valves, and continue sweating some safe "thermal distance" from sed ball
valve.
Sometimes I'll even use a union, depending...

Am I bein a wus?? Is there a more reliable way to sweat ball valves?
I know there is some precedence for this, as I have seen sweat valves w/
removable flange-type ends, presumably for just this problem--but of
course they cost big(ger) $$.

In general, I sort of mix threaded w/ copper, like for caps: Instead of
sweating a cap to a tee, I'll first sweat an adapter, and then screw on a
threaded cap--makes subsequent connections easier, I think. I always
found sweating previously-wet copper "in line" a real pita.

Also, along the lines of ball valves, I noticed diff. 1/2 threaded valves
have diff IDs!
Gas ball valves have the smallest, but a nice thumb-handle. Can I use
these for water, as well?
Water ball valves have the longer handle, but even these have diff. IDs,
which I find surprising. Any idears on why? Just diff. mfrs?

A'ight, thanks! I hope this it, fer plumbing!!

----------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll



  #9   Report Post  
Bruce L. Bergman
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:49:43 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

I have previously screwed up sweating ball valves, and frankly don't see how
the teflon seals withstand the heat, even with "good technique", which mine
most likely is not, given the rare plumbing that I do.

So what I do is buy threaded ball valves, and separately sweat a suitable
length of copper pipe to copper adapters, screw those in to the threaded
valves, and continue sweating some safe "thermal distance" from sed ball
valve.
Sometimes I'll even use a union, depending...

Am I bein a wus?? Is there a more reliable way to sweat ball valves?
I know there is some precedence for this, as I have seen sweat valves w/
removable flange-type ends, presumably for just this problem--but of course
they cost big(ger) $$.


I've never had a problem - but if it's bugging you, go to a
refrigeration house and get a tube of Calgon Thermo-Trap Heat Paste.
It's literally wheat and water paste in a tube, you coat the outside
body of the valve center and it'll soak up the excess heat while you
sweat the fitting ends. When you're done it brushes or hoses off.

Ball valves can take the heat, certain other fittings can't, which
is why they make the stuff.

In general, I sort of mix threaded w/ copper, like for caps: Instead of
sweating a cap to a tee, I'll first sweat an adapter, and then screw on a
threaded cap--makes subsequent connections easier, I think. I always found
sweating previously-wet copper "in line" a real pita.


Use the bread trick for wet pipes. Drain as much of the water as
you can, then take a half slice of bread (sans crust) and wad it into
a ball slightly larger than the pipe ID, and stuff it in a couple
inches. Then sweat your last fitting together. The bread will hold
back the residual water drops long enough to let you sweat the pipe,
then it'll liquefy and blow through the system when you turn the water
back on and flush it out.

They sell the little molded gelatin balls now for the same purpose,
but that's no fun at all.

Also, along the lines of ball valves, I noticed diff. 1/2 threaded valves
have diff IDs!
Gas ball valves have the smallest, but a nice thumb-handle. Can I use these
for water, as well?
Water ball valves have the longer handle, but even these have diff. IDs,
which I find surprising. Any idears on why? Just diff. mfrs?


Different makers, different uses, too. The ones with the big holes
are usually marked 'full port'. You want to go by the ratings, if
they're marked WOG it's 'Water Oil Gas', and they usually restrict
the stubby gas valves to gas only.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.
  #10   Report Post  
Charles Spitzer
 
Posts: n/a
Default

also, heating teflon too hot causes dangerous gases to be emitted, which can
kill tropical birds a lot sooner than it will affect you.

"DeepDiver" wrote in message
...
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...

I have previously screwed up sweating ball valves, and frankly
don't see how the teflon seals withstand the heat, even with
"good technique", which mine most likely is not, given the rare
plumbing that I do.


The melting point of Teflon ranges from 500 deg F (Teflon FEP) to 621 deg
F (Teflon PTFE). From a site on the properties of Teflon:

"The melting point of Teflon PTFE is one of the highest in organic polymer
chemistry. Due to the strength of the carbon-fluorine and carbon-carbon
single bonds, appreciable thermal energy must be sorbed by the polymers
before thermal degradation."

The melting point of typical lead-free solder ranges from 450 - 495 deg F.
Therefore, if you apply the heat correctly, your solder will melt before
the Teflon is damaged.


I am not a professional plumber. But I've done a lot of plumbing repairs
and upgrades. This is what I do:

1. Ensure that your parts are CLEAN! Use those special wire pipe cleaners
to make sure you have nice shiny copper at both mating areas of the joint.

2. Apply a thin coat of water-soluble flux to both mating areas.

3. Fit the parts together. Make sure your geometry is correct.

4. Open the valve you are going to sweat so that hot air/steam can escape.

5. I like to wrap a wet (but not dripping) towel around the valve
mechanism. Probably not necessasary, but it also helps you avoid charring
the rubber coated handle if you accidentally pass your flame over it. Just
be sure to keep the towel off/away from the joint you are sweating,
otherwise you'll never get it hot enough.

6. Sweat the joint with your torch. Use a high heat flame. (If too low a
flame, you will just dump heat into your pipes over a long period of time
without the joint ever getting hot enough to melt the solder. What you
want is high localized heat at the joint, before the rest of your
pipe/valve has a chance to get really hot.) Focus 90% of your heat on the
pipe leading into the valve.

7. As you're heating the joint, occassionally pull the flame away and
touch the tip of your (lead-free) solder to the edge of the joint. If the
temp is right, the solder will melt and instantly wick into the joint. If
it sticks or doesn't immediately start to flow, it's not hot enough: take
away the solder and apply more heat from the torch.

8 It doesn't take much solder to make a good connection. Avoid the
temptation to flood the joint with solder. You should just see a tiny
silver fillet around the circumference of the joint.

9. Allow the joint to cool and solidify before attempting to move or do
other work on the pipe.

10. If you have difficulty getting the solder to flow or if you have drips
and/or blobs of solder, there are four possible culprits: joint not clean,
not enough flux, not enough heat, or too much solder.



So what I do is buy threaded ball valves, and separately sweat a
suitable length of copper pipe to copper adapters, screw those in
to the threaded valves, and continue sweating some safe
"thermal distance" from sed ball valve.
Sometimes I'll even use a union, depending...

In general, I sort of mix threaded w/ copper, like for caps:
Instead of sweating a cap to a tee, I'll first sweat an adapter,
and then screw on a threaded cap--makes subsequent connections
easier, I think.


Each threaded adapter you place in your system increases the cost,
complexity, time to do the job, and the possibility of leaking. If you
practice and learn to solder correctly, you can save a lot (in terms of
money, time, and headache) by eliminating these extra joints.


I always found sweating previously-wet copper
"in line" a real pita.


This really isn't that difficult. First, make sure your joints are very
clean. Water deposits, scale, old flux, and old oxidised solder must be
cleaned away. You should have a bight shiny silver joint. (It's silver
from the *now clean* old solder. It is neither neccessary nor desirable to
remove all the old solder down to the base copper pipe. The old solder
provides a pre-tinned joint for you.) Next, make sure the joint is bone
dry. You may have to drain all the upstream and/or downstream pipes to
make sure no water trickles into your joint as you're trying to solder it
(sometimes it helps to blow air into the pipes). Plumbing supply shops
sell dissolvable capsules that you can press into the pipe to stop any
water from getting into your joint as you're soldering, but an old
plumber's trick is to use the soft white center from a piece of bread to
do the same thing. Frankly, I've never needed to do either: i've just made
sure the pipes are well-drained and that the pipe near my joint is wiped
dry.


Regards,
Michael





  #11   Report Post  
Eric R Snow
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 29 Apr 2005 21:08:55 GMT, Ignoramus1723
wrote:

On 29 Apr 2005 13:45:28 -0700, jim rozen wrote:
In article , Proctologically Violated©® says...

Am I bein a wus??


IMO yes. I was buying 1/2 inch ball valves by the box for a while
after we bought our house. I sweated them all in without taking
them apart and removing the teflon seal, and they all work quite
well.


I also sweated them without removing the ball, everything worked
well. My approach was to use solder as soon as it becomes possible,
rather than wait until the valve overheats.

i

Something that really helps is having enough heat. A small flame will
overheat the valve. I use an air-acetylene torch for doing copper
pipe. It is more of a hassle lugging the little cylinder around, but
it makes the job way faster because the joint heats so fast.
ERS
  #12   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:49:43 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Awl--

Hopefully my last plumbing Q! Man, am I buried here!

I have previously screwed up sweating ball valves, and frankly don't see how
the teflon seals withstand the heat, even with "good technique", which mine
most likely is not, given the rare plumbing that I do.

So what I do is buy threaded ball valves, and separately sweat a suitable
length of copper pipe to copper adapters, screw those in to the threaded
valves, and continue sweating some safe "thermal distance" from sed ball
valve.
Sometimes I'll even use a union, depending...


Never heard of "just for copper"?
It's the cat's ass for assembling hard copper and brass fittings. No
heat required - goes on like crazy-glue and holds like a weld. Not gap
filling, so not recommended for soft copper tubing, but approved for
hot/cold water as well as oil and gas (natural, propane, or gasoline)

Am I bein a wus?? Is there a more reliable way to sweat ball valves?
I know there is some precedence for this, as I have seen sweat valves w/
removable flange-type ends, presumably for just this problem--but of course
they cost big(ger) $$.

In general, I sort of mix threaded w/ copper, like for caps: Instead of
sweating a cap to a tee, I'll first sweat an adapter, and then screw on a
threaded cap--makes subsequent connections easier, I think. I always found
sweating previously-wet copper "in line" a real pita.

Also, along the lines of ball valves, I noticed diff. 1/2 threaded valves
have diff IDs!
Gas ball valves have the smallest, but a nice thumb-handle. Can I use these
for water, as well?
Water ball valves have the longer handle, but even these have diff. IDs,
which I find surprising. Any idears on why? Just diff. mfrs?

A'ight, thanks! I hope this it, fer plumbing!!

----------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll


  #13   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 30 Apr 2005 00:40:38 GMT, Ignoramus1723
wrote:

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:19:17 -0700, Eric R Snow wrote:
On 29 Apr 2005 21:08:55 GMT, Ignoramus1723
wrote:

On 29 Apr 2005 13:45:28 -0700, jim rozen wrote:
In article , Proctologically Violated©® says...

Am I bein a wus??

IMO yes. I was buying 1/2 inch ball valves by the box for a while
after we bought our house. I sweated them all in without taking
them apart and removing the teflon seal, and they all work quite
well.

I also sweated them without removing the ball, everything worked
well. My approach was to use solder as soon as it becomes possible,
rather than wait until the valve overheats.

i

Something that really helps is having enough heat. A small flame will
overheat the valve. I use an air-acetylene torch for doing copper
pipe. It is more of a hassle lugging the little cylinder around, but
it makes the job way faster because the joint heats so fast.


I have a relatively decent $20 propane torch.

i

If it isn't a "turbo torch" or other high swirl type torch, you are
wasting your time, and gas. The old bernz-o-matic mixer heads are
obsolete.
  #14   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , Eric R Snow says...

Something that really helps is having enough heat. A small flame will
overheat the valve. I use an air-acetylene torch for doing copper
pipe. It is more of a hassle lugging the little cylinder around, but
it makes the job way faster because the joint heats so fast.


I also prefer to use an MC sized cylinder and a small smiths
air/acet torch for this kind of stuff.

If you want to see soft solder fittings like that go on *real*
fast, use an oxyacetylene rig. With just about the smallest
tip you own.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================
  #15   Report Post  
DanG
 
Posts: n/a
Default

We go through a lot of ball valves in a lot of sizes. We start to
find that if the ball valve was installed with the valve open, it
creates a very small imperfection that will seal ok when it is
new, but will not hold drip free with age. Our plumbers have gone
to working the valves in the closed position (this assumes new
piping, no water or steam present) with a wet rag on the valve.
The imperfection that is created is in the open position and the
closed position is smooth and functional.

(top posted for your convenience)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...
Awl--

Hopefully my last plumbing Q! Man, am I buried here!

I have previously screwed up sweating ball valves, and frankly
don't see how the teflon seals withstand the heat, even with
"good technique", which mine most likely is not, given the rare
plumbing that I do.

So what I do is buy threaded ball valves, and separately sweat a
suitable length of copper pipe to copper adapters, screw those
in to the threaded valves, and continue sweating some safe
"thermal distance" from sed ball valve.
Sometimes I'll even use a union, depending...

Am I bein a wus?? Is there a more reliable way to sweat ball
valves?
I know there is some precedence for this, as I have seen sweat
valves w/ removable flange-type ends, presumably for just this
problem--but of course they cost big(ger) $$.

In general, I sort of mix threaded w/ copper, like for caps:
Instead of sweating a cap to a tee, I'll first sweat an adapter,
and then screw on a threaded cap--makes subsequent connections
easier, I think. I always found sweating previously-wet copper
"in line" a real pita.

Also, along the lines of ball valves, I noticed diff. 1/2
threaded valves have diff IDs!
Gas ball valves have the smallest, but a nice thumb-handle. Can
I use these for water, as well?
Water ball valves have the longer handle, but even these have
diff. IDs, which I find surprising. Any idears on why? Just
diff. mfrs?

A'ight, thanks! I hope this it, fer plumbing!!

----------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll





  #16   Report Post  
DeepDiver
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"DanG" wrote in message
news:JqLce.334$yV4.173@okepread03...

Our plumbers have gone to working the valves in the closed
position (this assumes new piping, no water or steam present)
with a wet rag on the valve. The imperfection that is created
is in the open position and the closed position is smooth and
functional.


Hi Dan,

Are you sure about the valve orientation that's causing the leaking? What
you've described seems counter-intuitive to me.

When a ball valve is open, then the smooth, solid, uninterrupted sides of
the chromed ball are against the Teflon seal. When a ball valve is closed,
then the through-hole of the ball is pressing against the Teflon. If the
Teflon were to get hot enough to deform, then it would seem that it would be
better to have the smooth, uninterrupted sides of the ball pressing against
the Teflon, rather than the part of the ball with the through-hole in it
(which would allow for an impression of the hole in the deformed Teflon
seal).

Have you tried taking two ball valves apart (one heated with the valve open
and one heated with the valve closed) to examine the seals and see what is
causing the leakage that you've encountered?

Regards,
Michael


  #18   Report Post  
Proctologically Violated©®
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Someone earlier mentioned sweating ball valves disassembled. The $5 generic
ball valves I see don't seem to be dis-assemble-able.
Are they? Only some makes??
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"DanG" wrote in message
news:1SMce.340$yV4.215@okepread03...
I wrote correctly. Yes we have cut apart and disassembled more than one
valve.

(top posted for your convenience)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"DeepDiver" wrote in message
...
"DanG" wrote in message
news:JqLce.334$yV4.173@okepread03...

Our plumbers have gone to working the valves in the closed
position (this assumes new piping, no water or steam present)
with a wet rag on the valve. The imperfection that is created
is in the open position and the closed position is smooth and
functional.


Hi Dan,

Are you sure about the valve orientation that's causing the leaking? What
you've described seems counter-intuitive to me.

When a ball valve is open, then the smooth, solid, uninterrupted sides of
the chromed ball are against the Teflon seal. When a ball valve is
closed, then the through-hole of the ball is pressing against the Teflon.
If the Teflon were to get hot enough to deform, then it would seem that
it would be better to have the smooth, uninterrupted sides of the ball
pressing against the Teflon, rather than the part of the ball with the
through-hole in it (which would allow for an impression of the hole in
the deformed Teflon seal).

Have you tried taking two ball valves apart (one heated with the valve
open and one heated with the valve closed) to examine the seals and see
what is causing the leakage that you've encountered?

Regards,
Michael





  #19   Report Post  
Ted Edwards
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Lane wrote:
I'm going to be watching the answers on this one, I've worried about it also
and ended up using threaded ones.


I did all the plumbing in this house. All the shutoff valves are ball
valves with teflon seals. (Look into the valve. Teflon seals are
white.) I soldered all the connection and had zero leaks or failures.

Clean both the valve and the copper pipe with steel wool, apply flux,
fit together and solder with a propane torch. Apply heat to the joint
area until the solder melts on contact with the joint and flows into it.

When soldering, cleanliness is not next to Godliness. It's way out in
front.

Ted
  #20   Report Post  
DeepDiver
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"DanG" wrote in message
news:1SMce.340$yV4.215@okepread03...

I wrote correctly. Yes we have cut apart and disassembled more than one
valve.


Interesting. What did you discover on the disassembled valves that accounted
for the leakage when the valves were heated in the "open" position?

- Michael




  #21   Report Post  
DanG
 
Posts: n/a
Default

deformation of the Teflon and calcium deposits where the Teflon
was in contact with the edges of the hole. When the valve is
closed it is in full contact with the ball.

(top posted for your convenience)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"DeepDiver" wrote in message
...
"DanG" wrote in message
news:1SMce.340$yV4.215@okepread03...

I wrote correctly. Yes we have cut apart and disassembled more
than one valve.


Interesting. What did you discover on the disassembled valves
that accounted for the leakage when the valves were heated in
the "open" position?

- Michael



  #22   Report Post  
Harold and Susan Vordos
 
Posts: n/a
Default


wrote in message
...
On 30 Apr 2005 00:40:38 GMT, Ignoramus1723
wrote:

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:19:17 -0700, Eric R Snow wrote:
On 29 Apr 2005 21:08:55 GMT, Ignoramus1723
wrote:

On 29 Apr 2005 13:45:28 -0700, jim rozen

wrote:
In article , Proctologically

Violated©® says...

Am I bein a wus??

IMO yes. I was buying 1/2 inch ball valves by the box for a while
after we bought our house. I sweated them all in without taking
them apart and removing the teflon seal, and they all work quite
well.

I also sweated them without removing the ball, everything worked
well. My approach was to use solder as soon as it becomes possible,
rather than wait until the valve overheats.

i
Something that really helps is having enough heat. A small flame will
overheat the valve. I use an air-acetylene torch for doing copper
pipe. It is more of a hassle lugging the little cylinder around, but
it makes the job way faster because the joint heats so fast.


I have a relatively decent $20 propane torch.

i

If it isn't a "turbo torch" or other high swirl type torch, you are
wasting your time, and gas. The old bernz-o-matic mixer heads are
obsolete.


Yep! The Turbo Torch is the best thing to hit the market. They will
easily solder 1" copper fittings. Try that with the standard propane torch!
(Ain't gonna happen).

When soldering ball valves, clean perfectly to bright metal, flux
sparingly, get the heat in as fast as possible, solder, and cool it with a
wet rag. That removes the unwanted flux and heat. I've done several of
them with no failures.

Harold


  #23   Report Post  
Lane
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
Yep! The Turbo Torch is the best thing to hit the market. They will
easily solder 1" copper fittings. Try that with the standard propane
torch!
(Ain't gonna happen).


Harold



But Harold, I have sweated 1" before with propane without any problem.

Lane


  #24   Report Post  
Rick R
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Air acetylene is the hot ticket, or mapp or propane with a Turbo tip.
Do not waste time to disassemble the valve.
Clean valve with wire brush. And Copper with emery cloth. Cleaning is the
most important step.
Use Self cleaning flux. It is stronger and cleans better.
Sweat them the same day that you clean them.
Heat the valve at the fitting only, not the pipe. Sweat other end
immediately.
Heat only enough to get solder to flow. Heat opposite sides of the joint or
on larger tubing heat around the perimeter keep torch moving do not Dwell in
one spot. You can actually get it hot enough to burn the flux. And the joint
will never sweat properly unless you take it apart and re clean it.
Get in and out quickly. That is where the air acetylene comes in. The turbo
torch with propane is acceptable up to about 3/4 Diameter.
Start counting in your head as soon as you apply the heat. after doing a
couple you will get the feel for it and you can do them pretty fast. If you
burn the seal you got it waaaay too hot.
If you have to wipe the joint you used too much solder. It should have a
small fillet.
Good luck.
RR


"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...
Awl--

Hopefully my last plumbing Q! Man, am I buried here!

I have previously screwed up sweating ball valves, and frankly don't see
how the teflon seals withstand the heat, even with "good technique", which
mine most likely is not, given the rare plumbing that I do.

So what I do is buy threaded ball valves, and separately sweat a suitable
length of copper pipe to copper adapters, screw those in to the threaded
valves, and continue sweating some safe "thermal distance" from sed ball
valve.
Sometimes I'll even use a union, depending...

Am I bein a wus?? Is there a more reliable way to sweat ball valves?
I know there is some precedence for this, as I have seen sweat valves w/
removable flange-type ends, presumably for just this problem--but of
course they cost big(ger) $$.

In general, I sort of mix threaded w/ copper, like for caps: Instead of
sweating a cap to a tee, I'll first sweat an adapter, and then screw on a
threaded cap--makes subsequent connections easier, I think. I always
found sweating previously-wet copper "in line" a real pita.

Also, along the lines of ball valves, I noticed diff. 1/2 threaded valves
have diff IDs!
Gas ball valves have the smallest, but a nice thumb-handle. Can I use
these for water, as well?
Water ball valves have the longer handle, but even these have diff. IDs,
which I find surprising. Any idears on why? Just diff. mfrs?

A'ight, thanks! I hope this it, fer plumbing!!

----------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll



  #25   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , Rick R says...

If you have to wipe the joint you used too much solder. It should have a
small fillet.


The rule I've heard is you need about 1/2 inch of plumbers (1/8 dia)
solder to do one joint on 1/2 inch copper, 3/4 for 3/4 inch, and
so on.

I always wind up using a bit more though, and have to flip off the
extra drop at the bottom with the solder.

Jim


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