I am going to be running a hot water line up and over from the water
heater to a kitchen sink about 90 feet away. Presently the water goes
through a 3/4 copper pipe buried in the concert slab. I am going to run
a 1/2 inch overhead pipe covered by insulation. I am doing this to get
hot water faster - and not lose a lot of heat to the concrete slab.

I am the guy that was asking how much water is in a 1/2 inch by 100 feet
copper tube.

I went to Lowes and Home Depot and talked to the help there. I have
always used copper in the past sweating my own fittings. Both places
asked me to consider CPVC - it is much cheaper and they said easier to
work with. Is it durable?

They also showed me coils of copper tubing - in K and L category. What
is the difference in K and L copper tubing? It is more expensive than
CPVC - but you would have only one coupling overhead - not like the CPVC.

They also showed me union joints that join CPVC and copper.

I appreciate comments on this job.

Harry

Cpvc for hot water, I believe the pipes the pipes will never calcify
and will not radiate heat as fast as copper. You need more supports as
there is more flex. For less heat loss use Cpvc and closed cell foam
insulation, get the type of foam with pre glued seams you just pull of
the plastic and push together.

My dad's house is plumbed all in PVC and CPVC, he has not had any problems
with it in over 25 years. Taht said I don't like the stuff, I can't say why
for sure, I just like copper better.
Greg

Copper will withstand freezing better.
CPVC will be better if is buried.
Michelle

Harry Everhart wrote:

I am going to be running a hot water line up and over from the water
heater to a kitchen sink about 90 feet away. Presently the water goes
through a 3/4 copper pipe buried in the concert slab. I am going to run
a 1/2 inch overhead pipe covered by insulation. I am doing this to get
hot water faster - and not lose a lot of heat to the concrete slab.

I am the guy that was asking how much water is in a 1/2 inch by 100 feet
copper tube.

I went to Lowes and Home Depot and talked to the help there. I have
always used copper in the past sweating my own fittings. Both places
asked me to consider CPVC - it is much cheaper and they said easier to
work with. Is it durable?

They also showed me coils of copper tubing - in K and L category. What
is the difference in K and L copper tubing? It is more expensive than
CPVC - but you would have only one coupling overhead - not like the CPVC.

They also showed me union joints that join CPVC and copper.

I appreciate comments on this job.

Harry

"Harry Everhart" wrote in message
...

They also showed me coils of copper tubing - in K and L category. What
is the difference in K and L copper tubing? It is more expensive than
CPVC - but you would have only one coupling overhead - not like the CPVC.



I have used the PVC/CPVC. I prefer copper. The plastic pipe needs
expansion room.

I'm not sure about the K and L ratings on the copper tubing. I do know that
a lot of copper tubing sold is rated "not for potable water". The reason is
lead contamination. I think that is the difference. It may also refer to the
thickness of the pipe walls.

The number of joints should not be a consider for durability. Once sweated
they are as strong as the pipe. Ease of installation might be a
consideration.

I just did an attic run in a house I own. I used copper, enclosed it in the
best foam pipe insulation I could find and covered it with 10" of
insulation. The problem with pipe in the attic is not caused by the
temperature but by the wind chill that reaches the pipe. Tradition
fiberglass does not block blown air hence the use of the foam insulation.
Cellulose is a tad better for blown air but then you have the corrosive
effect of the chemicals used to treat it

Best wishes

Colbyt

Are you doing this to add a continous loop of hot at the sink? You will
definitely get the hot water quicker, but you will have loss. Your HWH may
cycle a little more than usual.

That being said I would definitely use copper, and pray that the copper
under slab is insulated. We are replacing alot of radiant tubing inn
concrete slabs due to breakdown of the pipes from the concrete ( at least I
think that is why it is breaking down) too late had a long week brain is
dead. Why not just put in a point of use hot water heater under the sink.
Depending on your electric rate that may be alot cheaper.

--
Bob Pietrangelo


www.comfort-solution.biz
On Time or Your Service Call is FREE
Preventive Maintenance Specialist




"Harry Everhart" wrote in message
...
I am going to be running a hot water line up and over from the water
heater to a kitchen sink about 90 feet away. Presently the water goes
through a 3/4 copper pipe buried in the concert slab. I am going to run
a 1/2 inch overhead pipe covered by insulation. I am doing this to get
hot water faster - and not lose a lot of heat to the concrete slab.

I am the guy that was asking how much water is in a 1/2 inch by 100 feet
copper tube.

I went to Lowes and Home Depot and talked to the help there. I have
always used copper in the past sweating my own fittings. Both places
asked me to consider CPVC - it is much cheaper and they said easier to
work with. Is it durable?

They also showed me coils of copper tubing - in K and L category. What
is the difference in K and L copper tubing? It is more expensive than
CPVC - but you would have only one coupling overhead - not like the CPVC.

They also showed me union joints that join CPVC and copper.

I appreciate comments on this job.

Harry

They also showed me coils of copper tubing - in K and L category. What
is the difference in K and L copper tubing? It is more expensive than
CPVC - but you would have only one coupling overhead - not like the CPVC.

They also showed me union joints that join CPVC and copper.

I appreciate comments on this job.

Of the copper, one it thicker than the other. Don't remember offhand which
is the thicker, but should be the one that costs the most.

Also look at the Plex (however it is spelled) type of pipe. It had a bad
reputation in the past, but it was not the pipe but the couplings. I just
had my house replumbed from copper a couple of years ago.

"Bob Pietrangelo" wrote:
Are you doing this to add a continous loop of hot at the sink? You will
definitely get the hot water quicker, but you will have loss. Your HWH may
cycle a little more than usual.

No loop - I am replacing a 3/4 copper that is in the concrete with a 1/2
inch copper that will run overhead and be insulated.

I have considered a POU small water heater under the sink.

Michelle P wrote:
Copper will withstand freezing better.
CPVC will be better if is buried.
Michelle
Not much chance of freezing in Florida especially with the pipe
insulated.
The main water line into the house is CPVC 3/4 inch plastic about two
feet underground.

(m Ransley) wrote:
Cpvc for hot water, I believe the pipes the pipes will never calcify
and will not radiate heat as fast as copper. You need more supports as
there is more flex. For less heat loss use Cpvc and closed cell foam
insulation, get the type of foam with pre glued seams you just pull of
the plastic and push together.

I looked at the pre glue insulation - there is some that is pretty rigid
- and then stuff that looks soft and rubbery. Which one is closed foam
insulation?

Harry Everhart wrote:
I am going to be running a hot water line up and over from the water

heater to a kitchen sink about 90 feet away. Presently the water goes

through a 3/4 copper pipe buried in the concert slab. I am going to
run
a 1/2 inch overhead pipe covered by insulation. I am doing this to
get
hot water faster - and not lose a lot of heat to the concrete slab.

I am the guy that was asking how much water is in a 1/2 inch by 100
feet
copper tube.

I went to Lowes and Home Depot and talked to the help there. I have
always used copper in the past sweating my own fittings. Both places
asked me to consider CPVC - it is much cheaper and they said easier
to
work with. Is it durable?

They also showed me coils of copper tubing - in K and L category.
What
is the difference in K and L copper tubing? It is more expensive than

CPVC - but you would have only one coupling overhead - not like the
CPVC.

They also showed me union joints that join CPVC and copper.

I appreciate comments on this job.

Harry

CPVC/PVC = easy, usually cheaper than copper a0nd very simple to repair
or make corrections/additions. Got a leaking joint, a can of glue, a
piece of pipe, couple fitting and a hacksaw, job done in a few minutes
at very little cost. My experiences in repair are from my sprinkler
system that has frozen at times. They are both as durable, if not more
so, than copper (they don't corrode). For looks use copper. Me, I
redid my entire house with CPVC 20 years ago and haven't had any
problems at all.

Harry K

Many years ago my grandfather had been suffering for many years with
illness, The doctor finally determined that corrosion from the copper pipes
in his house was poisoning him with small amounts of copper sulfate over the
years.

My father ripped out all the copper pipes and replaced with CPVC and also
used it in his own house when he built it. My grandfathers health improved
then. My mother still lives in the house my father built (he built it all
himself) using the CPVC, been 35 years now. Never had one problem and is in
a crawl space, not insulated.


MC
"Harry K" wrote in message
oups.com...

Harry Everhart wrote:
I am going to be running a hot water line up and over from the water

heater to a kitchen sink about 90 feet away. Presently the water goes

through a 3/4 copper pipe buried in the concert slab. I am going to
run
a 1/2 inch overhead pipe covered by insulation. I am doing this to
get
hot water faster - and not lose a lot of heat to the concrete slab.

I am the guy that was asking how much water is in a 1/2 inch by 100
feet
copper tube.

I went to Lowes and Home Depot and talked to the help there. I have
always used copper in the past sweating my own fittings. Both places
asked me to consider CPVC - it is much cheaper and they said easier
to
work with. Is it durable?

They also showed me coils of copper tubing - in K and L category.
What
is the difference in K and L copper tubing? It is more expensive than

CPVC - but you would have only one coupling overhead - not like the
CPVC.

They also showed me union joints that join CPVC and copper.

I appreciate comments on this job.

Harry

CPVC/PVC = easy, usually cheaper than copper a0nd very simple to repair
or make corrections/additions. Got a leaking joint, a can of glue, a
piece of pipe, couple fitting and a hacksaw, job done in a few minutes
at very little cost. My experiences in repair are from my sprinkler
system that has frozen at times. They are both as durable, if not more
so, than copper (they don't corrode). For looks use copper. Me, I
redid my entire house with CPVC 20 years ago and haven't had any
problems at all.

Harry K

Go with Pex or copper.

Pex is better IMHO

In article .com,
"Brian" wrote:
Go with Pex or copper.
Pex is better IMHO

What is pex Brian - never heard of it.
Harry

Just to get you started.
Approved for hot and cold potable water supply.
http://www.wattsradiant.com/waterpex.html

"Harry Everhart" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
"Brian" wrote:
Go with Pex or copper.
Pex is better IMHO

What is pex Brian - never heard of it.
Harry

Michael Baugh wrote:
Just to get you started.
Approved for hot and cold potable water supply.
http://www.wattsradiant.com/waterpex.html

"Harry Everhart" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
"Brian" wrote:
Go with Pex or copper.
Pex is better IMHO

What is pex Brian - never heard of it.
Harry

Doesn't it require some expensive tools to make the joints? From what
little reading I have done on it it sounds like a good to excellent
system but I see nothing in it to recommend it over CPVC other than it
being flexible for easy old construction rehab.

Harry K

Far as I'm concerned, the price of the tools, and the
lack of rigidity of the tubing are the main reasons for CPVC
being seen as more suited.
For applications such as radiant heating, being installed by
the pros, it seems like a natural.
Here's a site
http://www.pexconnection.com/products.php?catID=124
showing crimping tools that cost nearly or over a hundred dollars because
of their limited application and utilization. Seems to me that they should
give you the tool when you ask for it with an order of over 500 feet of
tubing.

As to the question, my vote is for copper. And Copper-Bond.

"Harry K" wrote in message
oups.com...

Michael Baugh wrote:
Just to get you started.
Approved for hot and cold potable water supply.
http://www.wattsradiant.com/waterpex.html

"Harry Everhart" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
"Brian" wrote:
Go with Pex or copper.
Pex is better IMHO

What is pex Brian - never heard of it.
Harry

Doesn't it require some expensive tools to make the joints? From what
little reading I have done on it it sounds like a good to excellent
system but I see nothing in it to recommend it over CPVC other than it
being flexible for easy old construction rehab.

Harry K

"Michael Baugh" wrote in message
Here's a site
http://www.pexconnection.com/products.php?catID=124
showing crimping tools that cost nearly or over a hundred dollars because
of their limited application and utilization. Seems to me that they should
give you the tool when you ask for it with an order of over 500 feet of
tubing.

And who would really pay for that tool? Nothing is truly free.

No assumption of 'free' involved.
If it had different configuration, it would be a 12 dollar tool for crimping
coaxial cable, vinyl siding, whatever. I see it as a
grotesquely overpriced tool.
Ya know, the cell phone industry has made such strides because the true
product is not the phone, but the use of the communication system it
connects with. So the phones are virtually 'free', but necessary for the
connection.
I see PEX in similar fashion. They could 'bundle' tools with the tubing,
put it into installers hands, and if a tool gets lost, pay list price for a
roll of 500 feet and get another tool.
PEX has considerable future if they stop seeing it as an opportunity to
gouge the users on the price of the tools. And if they continue, they will
get the attention of the Chinese 'knockoff artists' who will provide the
tools for 'free' if you buy the PEX from a Chinese manufacturer, and there
goes another U.S. company down the tubes because of failure to acknowledge
international marketing patterns.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. com...

"Michael Baugh" wrote in message
Here's a site
http://www.pexconnection.com/products.php?catID=124
showing crimping tools that cost nearly or over a hundred dollars
because
of their limited application and utilization. Seems to me that they
should
give you the tool when you ask for it with an order of over 500 feet of
tubing.

And who would really pay for that tool? Nothing is truly free.

PEX is cross linked Polyethylene. It is suitable for hot or cold
water. It is less brittle and more freeze resistant than CPVC which is
Chlorinated Poly Vinyl Chloride. PEX comes in 20 foot lengths and 100
foot and 500 foot coils. You can get compression fittings for PEX.
They are made by Qest and are called Quick-Tite fittings. You can run
one loop through the attic with the only joints being at the ends. It
is just like pulling romex, only for water. PEX comes in 1/2" and 3/4".
The smaller size will get you hot water faster, but you will have
lower pressure at the faucet.

Copper cones in 50 foot coils and 20' Sticks. It can also be ordered
in 100 foot coils, but not all suppliers cary those lengths. K is the
heaviest, followed by L, then M which is the lightest pressure rated
grade. DWV is availible in 1-1/4 inch and larger. It is Drainage,
Waste and Vent (Sewer Pipe). It is lighter than M and not rated for
Pressure. DWV only comes in sticks and is not widely used in my part
of the country. AC&R is pressure rated for Air Conditioning and
Refrigeration. It is dehydrated and sealed. It is more expensive than
water tubing. It is approximately equal to type L in pressure rating.

This may be more information than you wanted, but should help you make
an informed decission. I would recommend the PEX with Quick Tite
Fittings as the best choice in your situation. It is up to you if you
use the sticks or coils. If you have to push the pipe through the
attic, the sticks would be better. If you can pull it, I recommend the
coils for fewer joints. Remember, fittings add resistance to water
flow also. An elbow is about equal to 10 feet in resistance, depending
on the size.

Good luck.


Stretch

No assumption of 'free' involved.
If it had different configuration, it would be a 12 dollar tool for
crimping
coaxial cable, vinyl siding, whatever. I see it as a
grotesquely overpriced tool.
Ya know, the cell phone industry has made such strides because the true

product is not the phone, but the use of the communication system it
connects with. So the phones are virtually 'free', but necessary for
the
connection.
I see PEX in similar fashion. They could 'bundle' tools with the
tubing,
put it into installers hands, and if a tool gets lost, pay list price
for a
roll of 500 feet and get another tool.
PEX has considerable future if they stop seeing it as an opportunity to

gouge the users on the price of the tools. And if they continue, they
will
get the attention of the Chinese 'knockoff artists' who will provide
the
tools for 'free' if you buy the PEX from a Chinese manufacturer, and
there
goes another U.S. company down the tubes because of failure to
acknowledge
international marketing patterns.


Michael, GOOD tools are worth the price, especially if you use them a
lot. Everyt time I buy a cheap tool, it bites me in the A--. If you
are just doing a one time project, you can often rent the good tool for
a few bucks. If you are a professional, Buy a good tool, not a cheap
knockoff. You won't regret it in the long run. Most home centers will
rent the tool cheap if you buy the tubing from them. Or you could buy
the Quick-Tite compression fittings and put everything together with a
couple of crescent wrenches.


Stretch

"Michael Baugh" wrote in message ...
No assumption of 'free' involved.
If it had different configuration, it would be a 12 dollar tool for
crimping
coaxial cable, vinyl siding, whatever. I see it as a
grotesquely overpriced tool.

It probably is. I just bought a crimping tool for cable and paid $35 for it
because I wanted a quality tool, not the $9 cheapo. I don't know what makes
the PEX tool so expensive.


I see PEX in similar fashion. They could 'bundle' tools with the tubing,
put it into installers hands, and if a tool gets lost, pay list price for
a
roll of 500 feet and get another tool.

How does that reduce the price of material for those that don't lose tools?
Or for the consumer?

PEX has considerable future if they stop seeing it as an opportunity to
gouge the users on the price of the tools. And if they continue, they will
get the attention of the Chinese 'knockoff artists' who will provide the
tools for 'free' if you buy the PEX from a Chinese manufacturer, and there
goes another U.S. company down the tubes because of failure to acknowledge
international marketing patterns.

The pro knows the value of PEX and will buy the tool he needs. Right now
they are seeming avoiding the DIY market but cheaper tools will come along.
The pro gets a lot of use from his tool if he uses PEX on a regular basis.
Yes, the DIY market is being shunned a bit it seems. The pro will buy 500
feet of tubing, chance are the DIY guy will not so they still don't get the
free tool. OTOH, if you are building a $300,000 house, the cost of the too
versus time save becomes a non-issue.

"Michael Baugh" wrote:
As to the question, my vote is for copper. And Copper-Bond.

Thanks Mike -
I never used copper-bond.
You like it huh?
Tell me why.
Harry

"stretch" wrote:
PEX is cross linked Polyethylene. It is suitable for hot or cold
water. It is less brittle and more freeze resistant than CPVC which is
Chlorinated Poly Vinyl Chloride. PEX comes in 20 foot lengths and 100


Hi Stretch -

Thanks for the great explanation. You gave me a lot of information for
my 100 feet run to the kitchen sink.
Can I buy CPVC in 100 foot coils?
Harry

Longer explanation earlier on earlier thread.
It's a two-part epoxy product that eliminates the soldering
process. And I've used a torch for 30 years, damned good
at it, but that stuff is easier, quicker, no leaks, no fires, no big
deal.
I do, however, use Q-tip sticks without the cotton, instead of the squarish
sticks they used to pvovide. After I told them how the
Q-tip sticks were better, they stopped providing anything to mix
or apply with, which I see as an improvement.

"Harry Everhart" wrote in message
...
"Michael Baugh" wrote:
As to the question, my vote is for copper. And Copper-Bond.

Thanks Mike -
I never used copper-bond.
You like it huh?
Tell me why.
Harry

If your sole purpose is to get hot water to the kitchen sink,
you can save yourself alot of bother;

Put a 4(?) gallon water heater under your sink.
They're little larger than a Coleman picnic jug,
plug into a wall socket,
and flex-connect between the hot water supply
and the faucet.

I've seen them on the net for about $130

It's rare that you will use that much hot water at the sink.
and if you need more, by then, the hot water will have
arrived from the main water heater.




On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:38:47 -0500, Harry Everhart wrote:

I am going to be running a hot water line up and over from the water
heater to a kitchen sink about 90 feet away. Presently the water goes
through a 3/4 copper pipe buried in the concert slab. I am going to run
a 1/2 inch overhead pipe covered by insulation. I am doing this to get
hot water faster - and not lose a lot of heat to the concrete slab.

I am the guy that was asking how much water is in a 1/2 inch by 100 feet
copper tube.

I went to Lowes and Home Depot and talked to the help there. I have
always used copper in the past sweating my own fittings. Both places
asked me to consider CPVC - it is much cheaper and they said easier to
work with. Is it durable?

They also showed me coils of copper tubing - in K and L category. What
is the difference in K and L copper tubing? It is more expensive than
CPVC - but you would have only one coupling overhead - not like the CPVC.

They also showed me union joints that join CPVC and copper.

I appreciate comments on this job.

Harry

rj

Harry Everhart wrote:
"stretch" wrote:
PEX is cross linked Polyethylene. It is suitable for hot or cold
water. It is less brittle and more freeze resistant than CPVC which is
Chlorinated Poly Vinyl Chloride. PEX comes in 20 foot lengths and 100

Thanks for the great explanation. You gave me a lot of information for
my 100 feet run to the kitchen sink.
Can I buy CPVC in 100 foot coils?

CPVC is way too stiff to coil. Straight lengths (and fittings) only.

"Harry K" wrote:
Michael Baugh wrote:
Just to get you started.
Approved for hot and cold potable water supply.
http://www.wattsradiant.com/waterpex.html

"Harry Everhart" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
"Brian" wrote:
Go with Pex or copper.
Pex is better IMHO

What is pex Brian - never heard of it.
Harry

Doesn't it require some expensive tools to make the joints? From what
little reading I have done on it it sounds like a good to excellent
system but I see nothing in it to recommend it over CPVC other than it
being flexible for easy old construction rehab.

Harry K

You can usually rent the tool. From your description, you'd only have to do a
couple of crimps, so you could probably get by with whatever the minimum rental
fee would be.

PEX doesn't require as many joins for long runs as CPVC. It's also more
forgiving than CPVC if you get a frozen pipe. Even Florida gets the occasional
Arctic Clipper -- if you're going into the attic, having a pipe that will "flex"
with the freeze instead of taking our your ceiling drywall when it splits is a
nice plus.

My local builder supply rents the crimping tool for $10/day. The little
rings and the fittings as usual cost more than the tubing. I buy a few
extras and return the leftovers with the tool. Take care to hold the
tool straight when crimping.
The tubing is white and flexible.
A few years back, I installed the grey plastic tubing in the wall for a
future bathroom. Before I got to that stage (long term building
projects are my forte),the grey plastic was outlawed for being prone to
leaks. That system used plastic compression fittings, no longer
available. I fished the new tubing in by clamping it to the grey stuff,
crimped on the fittings and was all done in about 20 minutes.
I also have the hard white CPVC in my house, and have had one joint
blow apart, luckly it was in the crawl space. This was years after
installation and that's kind of scary. The crimped-on ring is
definitely an improvement over glued joints.

JohnK

John,

I also have the hard white CPVC in my house, and have had one joint
blow apart, luckly it was in the crawl space.

CPVC is usually more cream colored than white PVC. In any case, my guess is
that joint was not glued together, or wasn't cleaned properly (primed)
before gluing.

I had one joint in my own installation that blew apart like that. I turned
on the water, everything was quiet for a while, then a pop and the sound of
rushing water in the crawlspace. When I climbed under I discovered the one
joint I forgot to glue up. Ooops... The glue and primer are colored, so
I went back over the entire installation and verified I hadn't missed any
other spots!

Once a joint has been solvent welded, I've never seen any way to get them
apart. They basically melt into one solid piece.

Anthony