Hi,

I'm just about to bite the bullet and fit whole house A/C.
I already have gas powered water filled radiators but since the cost
of a heat pump is only $250 more than straight A/C I was thinking for
spring/Fall heating (in DC) it might be a good idea.
Never owned a heat pump but the sales guy claims they are just as
efficient at making cold as regular A/C.
Anyone wish to share the pros/cons?

Thanks

Nick..

Find your cost per btu, for Ng electric. For me in the midwest
electricity is 3x the cost of Ng. So electric will never pay for me.
Post your Kwh and Ng costs with all taxes etc included. Radiators
heat better - more evenly . You Sales Guy ? is a Sales guy, Is he
BuBBA

"Nick" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I'm just about to bite the bullet and fit whole house A/C.
I already have gas powered water filled radiators but since the cost
of a heat pump is only $250 more than straight A/C I was thinking for
spring/Fall heating (in DC) it might be a good idea.
Never owned a heat pump but the sales guy claims they are just as
efficient at making cold as regular A/C.
Anyone wish to share the pros/cons?

Thanks

Nick..

This is turtle.

Now speaking about Heat Pump verses the straight A/C system as cooling only.
There is no difference between the two as efficient ability. They are rated in
SEER .

Now Heat Pump verses the gas type hot water circulation systems. Here in
Louisiana NO way use the Hot water circulation for we don't have winter. If you
live in the Northern states AWWWW it is hard to figure but you will have to get
with the locals and see what is right for your area.

TURTLE

TURTLE wrote:
"Nick" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I'm just about to bite the bullet and fit whole house A/C.
I already have gas powered water filled radiators but since the
cost
of a heat pump is only $250 more than straight A/C I was thinking
for
spring/Fall heating (in DC) it might be a good idea.
Never owned a heat pump but the sales guy claims they are just as
efficient at making cold as regular A/C.
Anyone wish to share the pros/cons?

Thanks

Nick..

This is turtle.

Now speaking about Heat Pump verses the straight A/C system as
cooling only.
There is no difference between the two as efficient ability. They are
rated in
SEER .

Now Heat Pump verses the gas type hot water circulation systems. Here
in
Louisiana NO way use the Hot water circulation for we don't have
winter. If you
live in the Northern states AWWWW it is hard to figure but you will
have to get
with the locals and see what is right for your area.

TURTLE

I live in the Philadelphia area.
When it gets much below 40 deg outside, I find the heat pump pretty
useless.

When it gets below 32 outside, the heat pump coils can ice up and the
defrost cycle pretty much negates any efficency savings the heat pump
may buy you.

It is pretty good to take the chill off the house when its 45 or so
outside. If thats worth $250 to you, then go for it.

Mark

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:08:16 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote:

Find your cost per btu, for Ng electric. For me in the midwest
electricity is 3x the cost of Ng. So electric will never pay for me.
Post your Kwh and Ng costs with all taxes etc included. Radiators
heat better - more evenly . You Sales Guy ? is a Sales guy, Is he
BuBBA

Nahh,
Probably just some stupid uninformed dork wanna be trailer trash webtv
idiot.........like you Ransley.

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:40:44 GMT, Nick
wrote:

Hi,

I'm just about to bite the bullet and fit whole house A/C.
I already have gas powered water filled radiators but since the cost
of a heat pump is only $250 more than straight A/C I was thinking for
spring/Fall heating (in DC) it might be a good idea.
Never owned a heat pump but the sales guy claims they are just as
efficient at making cold as regular A/C.
Anyone wish to share the pros/cons?

Thanks

Nick..

If you compare SEER to SEER there is no difference in cooling
efficiency. The heat pump is just an air conditioner that can be
reversed to take heat out of the air instead of the opposite.

If you intend to keep your existing heat system, there may be no
compelling reason to get a heat pump until you examine the costs of
electricity and NG where you live. In our case, we heat and cool with
the same unit. Called a gaspack. Electrical A/C combined with NG
forced air heat. We have on order a dual-fuel heat pump which
switches over to natural gas at about 38F. This gives us the best of
both worlds. We can use electricity to heat until it is less
efficient than NG, then it switches over. If I had a separate heat
system as you do, I would have to do a completely different
evaluation.

Dick

Because there are advantages and disadvantages to both a heat pump and
gas furnace based on the outdoor temperature, the dual-fuel solution
really does give you the best of both worlds. It's the most
comfortable heating system at any outdoor temperature, as well as one
of the most efficient, versatile, and economical heating-and-cooling
systems you can buy.

A dual-fuel heat pump is an electric heat pump and a gas furnace all
in one. In the Tennessee Valley, where temperatures are typically
above freezing and we enjoy some of the lowest electric rates in the
U.S., a heat pump is the most efficient way to heat your home. In
those few instances when the temperature drops below freezing, a gas
furnace provides heat more economically. By combining the two, you can
have the benefits of both systems.

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:40:44 GMT, Nick
wrote:

Hi,

I'm just about to bite the bullet and fit whole house A/C.
I already have gas powered water filled radiators but since the cost
of a heat pump is only $250 more than straight A/C I was thinking for
spring/Fall heating (in DC) it might be a good idea.
Never owned a heat pump but the sales guy claims they are just as
efficient at making cold as regular A/C.
Anyone wish to share the pros/cons?

Thanks

Nick..

I'm just about to bite the bullet and fit whole house A/C.
I already have gas powered water filled radiators but since the cost
of a heat pump is only $250 more than straight A/C I was thinking for
spring/Fall heating (in DC) it might be a good idea.
Never owned a heat pump but the sales guy claims they are just as
efficient at making cold as regular A/C.
Anyone wish to share the pros/cons?

Thanks



Well if you regular heat went out on any given weekend in the next 20
years you could probably save the additional cost by turning on the
heat pump and waiting until Monday to call out the repair person :-)
Seems it would be worth the extra expense just for that reason alone.

Steve B.

"Mark" wrote in message
oups.com...

TURTLE wrote:
"Nick" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I'm just about to bite the bullet and fit whole house A/C.
I already have gas powered water filled radiators but since the
cost
of a heat pump is only $250 more than straight A/C I was thinking
for
spring/Fall heating (in DC) it might be a good idea.
Never owned a heat pump but the sales guy claims they are just as
efficient at making cold as regular A/C.
Anyone wish to share the pros/cons?

Thanks

Nick..

This is turtle.

Now speaking about Heat Pump verses the straight A/C system as
cooling only.
There is no difference between the two as efficient ability. They are
rated in
SEER .

Now Heat Pump verses the gas type hot water circulation systems. Here
in
Louisiana NO way use the Hot water circulation for we don't have
winter. If you
live in the Northern states AWWWW it is hard to figure but you will
have to get
with the locals and see what is right for your area.

TURTLE

I live in the Philadelphia area.
When it gets much below 40 deg outside, I find the heat pump pretty
useless.

When it gets below 32 outside, the heat pump coils can ice up and the
defrost cycle pretty much negates any efficency savings the heat pump
may buy you.

It is pretty good to take the chill off the house when its 45 or so
outside. If thats worth $250 to you, then go for it.

Mark

This is Turtle.

Here when they say we are going to have a hard freeze over nite they are talking
about 25ºF or so. We have only about 3 or 5 days a year where back up heat on
the heat pumps will have to kick in.

When you start talking about weather below 20ºF for week on end , well My
thoughts on which system would work best would have to be just go Gas Hot air
furnaces to keep up. Now here heat pump is fair to use but the state of
Louisiana produces a lot of the Nature Gas supply of the 50 states and Natural
Gas is fairly cheap here compaired to electric. Louisiana pipes a lot of Natural
gas to the Ohio and Illinois area for their supply of gas. By the time the gas
gets up there it cost about 35% higher than what it sells here for. This also
changes too much for me to try to speak as which would be best up there.

TURTLE

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:43:45 -0700, Dick LeadWinger wrote:

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:40:44 GMT, Nick
wrote:

Hi,

I'm just about to bite the bullet and fit whole house A/C.
I already have gas powered water filled radiators but since the cost
of a heat pump is only $250 more than straight A/C I was thinking for
spring/Fall heating (in DC) it might be a good idea.
Never owned a heat pump but the sales guy claims they are just as
efficient at making cold as regular A/C.
Anyone wish to share the pros/cons?

Thanks

Nick..

If you compare SEER to SEER there is no difference in cooling
efficiency. The heat pump is just an air conditioner that can be
reversed to take heat out of the air instead of the opposite.

If you intend to keep your existing heat system, there may be no
compelling reason to get a heat pump until you examine the costs of
electricity and NG where you live. In our case, we heat and cool with
the same unit. Called a gaspack. Electrical A/C combined with NG
forced air heat. We have on order a dual-fuel heat pump which
switches over to natural gas at about 38F. This gives us the best of
both worlds. We can use electricity to heat until it is less
efficient than NG, then it switches over. If I had a separate heat
system as you do, I would have to do a completely different
evaluation.

Dick


Another thought too. In my home, I have oil fired baseboard hot water and
replaced my conventional A/C with a heat pump this winter. Since the HP
becomes my primary heating, I qualify for an electricity discount in my
area (Philly region). The discount is such that after paying for the
electricity for running the heat pump, my total electric bill is barely
higher than it was without the heat pump but paying full electric rates.
So in essence, I get very low cost heating for ~75% of my winter.

One additional piece of information - my heat pump is a geothermal unit.
BUT it was installed in such a (crappy) manner that the efficiency of a
good air source heat pump (2.5) is better any time the temp is ~30 out.
So if you do get electric discounts and your KWh usage is pretty high (my
daily usage runs 60-120KWh), then you'll probably find your total utility
bill to be very favorable when using a HP as much as possible when the
temps are above freezing.

Here's an example. Numbers are based on my typical usage patterns when
temps are in the mid 30's.
non-discounted electric: $0.142/KWh
discounted electric: $0.11/KWh
daily usage before heat pump: 56KWh
usage with HP, 6 hours/day: 80KWh
electric cost, non-discounted: $239
HP cost, discounted: $264

actual cost to heat house using HP: $25.

If I were using oil as my primary heat, I'd still be paying the $239 for
electricity then add on top of that the oil costs and electricity to run
the circulators and burner. For me at current oil costs, this adds
$100+/month under the above conditions (i.e. 30+ degree weather). So,
roughly speaking, I would save $75/month during the winter.

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:13:20 -0500, Astro wrote:


Here's an example. Numbers are based on my typical usage patterns when
temps are in the mid 30's.
non-discounted electric: $0.142/KWh
discounted electric: $0.11/KWh
daily usage before heat pump: 56KWh
usage with HP, 6 hours/day: 80KWh
electric cost, non-discounted: $239
HP cost, discounted: $264

actual cost to heat house using HP: $25.

If I were using oil as my primary heat, I'd still be paying the $239 for
electricity then add on top of that the oil costs and electricity to run
the circulators and burner. For me at current oil costs, this adds
$100+/month under the above conditions (i.e. 30+ degree weather). So,
roughly speaking, I would save $75/month during the winter.


Interesting numbers. I also looked at those costs when making a
decision on a dual-fuel heat pump vs our current gaspack. We have
timed electrical service where we live. You have to apply for it.
The meter measures power consumed during on-peak (9:00 A.M. to 9:00
P.M weekdays) and off-peak (week-day nights and week-ends.) The cost
varies slightly between summer and winter, but right now we are paying
$0.107/kwh on-peak, and $0.041/kwh off -peak. We try to shove as much
useage into off-peak as we can. Hot-tub heating, dish washing and
clothes washing are all done off-peak. We bring the house down to 65F
at night in the summer, so we set the thermostat to start cooling down
after 9:00 P.M. weekdays.

At the same time our natural gas runs as high as $1.14 per therm and
continues to climb. Our heating cost in the winter can be as high as
$200/month. By using the dual-fuel heat pump, I can heat the house
with electricity down to about 38F. Anything below that will require
natural gas. There is a large part of the year when our temperatures
are above 38F, but we still need heat. Whereas now we use natural gas
for all heating, I can limit it to those times we get below that.
Also, with a SEER rating of 12.0 vs the 8.0 we have now, cooling costs
will be significantly lower too. We should be getting our new system
within the next 2 or 3 weeks.

Dick

Those are all good points....

Another factor to throw in is the wear and tear on the compressor.
How often does the compressor need to be replaced and how much does
that cost. You'd have to save a lot of oil to cover the $250 inital
cost plus wear and tear on your A/C system.

There used to be a funny ad in Phoenix regarding heat pumps (yep we
needed heat in Phoenix in the winter)

it's a pumpin in the sumer and it's a pumpin in the winter until it
pumps its little guts out.

On 14 Feb 2005 10:41:53 -0800, "Mark" wrote:

Those are all good points....

Another factor to throw in is the wear and tear on the compressor.
How often does the compressor need to be replaced and how much does
that cost. You'd have to save a lot of oil to cover the $250 inital
cost plus wear and tear on your A/C system.

There used to be a funny ad in Phoenix regarding heat pumps (yep we
needed heat in Phoenix in the winter)

it's a pumpin in the sumer and it's a pumpin in the winter until it
pumps its little guts out.

The Trane dual-fuel heat pump we are buying has a 20-year warranty on
the heat exchanger, and 10-years on everything else, including the
compressor. Hopefully, it won't break right at 10-years. We do live
in Arizona, but at 5,000 feet.

Dick

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:48:55 -0700, Dick LeadWinger wrote:

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:13:20 -0500, Astro wrote:


Here's an example. Numbers are based on my typical usage patterns when
temps are in the mid 30's.
non-discounted electric: $0.142/KWh
discounted electric: $0.11/KWh
daily usage before heat pump: 56KWh
usage with HP, 6 hours/day: 80KWh
electric cost, non-discounted: $239
HP cost, discounted: $264

actual cost to heat house using HP: $25.

If I were using oil as my primary heat, I'd still be paying the $239 for
electricity then add on top of that the oil costs and electricity to run
the circulators and burner. For me at current oil costs, this adds
$100+/month under the above conditions (i.e. 30+ degree weather). So,
roughly speaking, I would save $75/month during the winter.


Interesting numbers. I also looked at those costs when making a
decision on a dual-fuel heat pump vs our current gaspack. We have
timed electrical service where we live. You have to apply for it.
The meter measures power consumed during on-peak (9:00 A.M. to 9:00
P.M weekdays) and off-peak (week-day nights and week-ends.) The cost
varies slightly between summer and winter, but right now we are paying
$0.107/kwh on-peak, and $0.041/kwh off -peak. We try to shove as much
useage into off-peak as we can. Hot-tub heating, dish washing and
clothes washing are all done off-peak. We bring the house down to 65F
at night in the summer, so we set the thermostat to start cooling down
after 9:00 P.M. weekdays.

At the same time our natural gas runs as high as $1.14 per therm and
continues to climb. Our heating cost in the winter can be as high as
$200/month. By using the dual-fuel heat pump, I can heat the house
with electricity down to about 38F. Anything below that will require
natural gas. There is a large part of the year when our temperatures
are above 38F, but we still need heat. Whereas now we use natural gas
for all heating, I can limit it to those times we get below that.
Also, with a SEER rating of 12.0 vs the 8.0 we have now, cooling costs
will be significantly lower too. We should be getting our new system
within the next 2 or 3 weeks.

Dick

I went over the electric costs again today and found that my numbers were
in error. My providers have altered their rate plans quite a bit, so now,
after the first 600kwh, my electric is $0.061/kwh (after the first 600kwh
at normal rates) compared to $.125 non-discount. So the above numbers
should be $210 and $185 discounted rate, making it $25 cheaper to heat the
house with the heat pump than just the normal electric bill with no heat!
The savings then increase to about $150/month below regular electric + oil
heat.

Good luck on our new system. Let us know how it works out for you.

m Ransley wrote:
Find your cost per btu, for Ng electric. For me in the midwest
electricity is 3x the cost of Ng. So electric will never pay for me.
Post your Kwh and Ng costs with all taxes etc included.


Yes, but the heat pump has a COP (coefficient of performance) that may
exceed 3, meaning the BTU of heat is a factor of 3 higher than the BTU
of electricity put in. Thus there could be monetary savings even though
electric costs more per BTU.

%mod%