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  #1   Report Post  
William Deans
 
Posts: n/a
Default grounding water pipe

Greetings,

I understand that I must ground my water pipe within 6 feet of where it
enters the basement. My circuit breaker box is 40 feet away on the other
side of the basement. Is there any reason why I cannot just insert another
grounding rod near where the water pipe enters the basement and ground it
there? Is there some requirement that the two grounding rods be tied
together by anything but the water pipe?

Thank you for your time and energy,
William


  #2   Report Post  
toller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Presumably your water pipe comes in through the ground; why isn't it
grounded already?
I must be missing something; I don't even know why you would want it
grounded. Is this a plumbing or electrical issue?


  #3   Report Post  
William Deans
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Greetings,

I think what the inspector means is that he won't count my grounding from
the circuit breaker to the water pipe as a second grounding rod because it
is grounded to the water pipe more than 6 feet from where the water pipe
enters the building. What he actually said though was that the water pipe
needed to be grounded within six feet of where it enters the building.

I called up to ask for clarification and it was reiterated that I needed to
ground the water pipe within six feet of where it enters the building. This
sounded like nonsense to me but I didn't want to argue with the inspector
any more than I already was. Does this rule exist? Every word I say to
this guy he somehow seems to turn into an argument in seconds so I don't
want to get back into it with him. He is very clear on what he wants
"GROUND THE WATER PIPE WITHIN SIX FEET OF ENTERING THE BUILDING" but it
makes no sense to my little non-inspector brain.

Maybe there is a very good reason for it that I just don't understand.

Thank you for your time and energy,
William

"toller" wrote in message
...
Presumably your water pipe comes in through the ground; why isn't it
grounded already?
I must be missing something; I don't even know why you would want it
grounded. Is this a plumbing or electrical issue?




  #4   Report Post  
Percival P. Cassidy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The water pipe must be grounded in case a live wire contacts it
somewhere, causing a possibly lethal hazard for the plumber.

It may not be well grounded already even if the underground pipe outside
the building is metal: soil, even when wet, is not a wonderful
conductor. And who knows whether the pipe outside *is* even metal.

Perce


On 02/11/05 06:49 pm toller tossed the following ingredients into the
ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

Presumably your water pipe comes in through the ground; why isn't it
grounded already?
I must be missing something; I don't even know why you would want it
grounded. Is this a plumbing or electrical issue?

  #5   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article 1108165344.086189350038cb1a4aa23a6256ddc271@teran ews, "William Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

I understand that I must ground my water pipe within 6 feet of where it
enters the basement. My circuit breaker box is 40 feet away on the other
side of the basement. Is there any reason why I cannot just insert another
grounding rod near where the water pipe enters the basement and ground it
there? Is there some requirement that the two grounding rods be tied
together by anything but the water pipe?


You're missing the point about this. The idea is not that the water pipe needs
to be grounded (it already is, by virtue of being buried in the ground). The
point is that the electrical code requires that metal water piping be bonded
to the grounding electrode(s) for the electrical service to ensure that there
cannot be any voltage differential between the plumbing and the electrical
safety ground. Verify this with the inspector before doing anything, but I
imagine what he means is that you need to have the grounding bus in your
electrical panel connected to the water pipe, within six feet of where the
water pipe enters the building -- most readily accomplished by running an
appropriately-sized copper wire from the panel to within six feet of where the
water pipe comes in.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?


  #6   Report Post  
William Deans
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Greetings,

The water pipe is connected to the grounding bus and the grounding bus is
connected to a grounding rod -- all within 3 feet of the circuit breaker. I
have jumpers over the hot water meter and between the cold and hot pipes
to/from the hot water heater.

Hope this helps,
William


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
news
In article 1108165344.086189350038cb1a4aa23a6256ddc271@teran ews,

"William Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

I understand that I must ground my water pipe within 6 feet of where it
enters the basement. My circuit breaker box is 40 feet away on the other
side of the basement. Is there any reason why I cannot just insert

another
grounding rod near where the water pipe enters the basement and ground it
there? Is there some requirement that the two grounding rods be tied
together by anything but the water pipe?


You're missing the point about this. The idea is not that the water pipe

needs
to be grounded (it already is, by virtue of being buried in the ground).

The
point is that the electrical code requires that metal water piping be

bonded
to the grounding electrode(s) for the electrical service to ensure that

there
cannot be any voltage differential between the plumbing and the electrical
safety ground. Verify this with the inspector before doing anything, but I
imagine what he means is that you need to have the grounding bus in your
electrical panel connected to the water pipe, within six feet of where the
water pipe enters the building -- most readily accomplished by running an
appropriately-sized copper wire from the panel to within six feet of where

the
water pipe comes in.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?



  #7   Report Post  
RBM
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Doug is absolutely correct. The reason they want it connected close to the
point the water pipe enters the building is to prevent fault currents from
hurting anyone if a fitting along the pipe gets disconnected. Which is the
same reason you install a jumper around water meters
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
news
In article 1108165344.086189350038cb1a4aa23a6256ddc271@teran ews,
"William Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

I understand that I must ground my water pipe within 6 feet of where it
enters the basement. My circuit breaker box is 40 feet away on the other
side of the basement. Is there any reason why I cannot just insert
another
grounding rod near where the water pipe enters the basement and ground it
there? Is there some requirement that the two grounding rods be tied
together by anything but the water pipe?


You're missing the point about this. The idea is not that the water pipe
needs
to be grounded (it already is, by virtue of being buried in the ground).
The
point is that the electrical code requires that metal water piping be
bonded
to the grounding electrode(s) for the electrical service to ensure that
there
cannot be any voltage differential between the plumbing and the electrical
safety ground. Verify this with the inspector before doing anything, but I
imagine what he means is that you need to have the grounding bus in your
electrical panel connected to the water pipe, within six feet of where the
water pipe enters the building -- most readily accomplished by running an
appropriately-sized copper wire from the panel to within six feet of where
the
water pipe comes in.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?



  #8   Report Post  
William Deans
 
Posts: n/a
Default

So I still don't get it -- where does it say this thing about the 6 feet in
the NEC or plumbing codes?

"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1108170460.1e62c1888fb07c2b52993165be651fe7@t eranews...
Greetings,

The water pipe is connected to the grounding bus and the grounding bus is
connected to a grounding rod -- all within 3 feet of the circuit breaker.

I
have jumpers over the hot water meter and between the cold and hot pipes
to/from the hot water heater.

Hope this helps,
William


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
news
In article 1108165344.086189350038cb1a4aa23a6256ddc271@teran ews,

"William Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

I understand that I must ground my water pipe within 6 feet of where it
enters the basement. My circuit breaker box is 40 feet away on the

other
side of the basement. Is there any reason why I cannot just insert

another
grounding rod near where the water pipe enters the basement and ground

it
there? Is there some requirement that the two grounding rods be tied
together by anything but the water pipe?


You're missing the point about this. The idea is not that the water pipe

needs
to be grounded (it already is, by virtue of being buried in the ground).

The
point is that the electrical code requires that metal water piping be

bonded
to the grounding electrode(s) for the electrical service to ensure that

there
cannot be any voltage differential between the plumbing and the

electrical
safety ground. Verify this with the inspector before doing anything, but

I
imagine what he means is that you need to have the grounding bus in your
electrical panel connected to the water pipe, within six feet of where

the
water pipe enters the building -- most readily accomplished by running

an
appropriately-sized copper wire from the panel to within six feet of

where
the
water pipe comes in.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?





  #9   Report Post  
William Deans
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Greetings,

The water pipe is connected to the grounding bus but not within 6 feet of
where it enters the house. Why the 6 foot rule? As you say who knows
whether the pipe outside *is* even metal?

William


"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
The water pipe must be grounded in case a live wire contacts it
somewhere, causing a possibly lethal hazard for the plumber.

It may not be well grounded already even if the underground pipe outside
the building is metal: soil, even when wet, is not a wonderful
conductor. And who knows whether the pipe outside *is* even metal.

Perce


On 02/11/05 06:49 pm toller tossed the following ingredients into the
ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

Presumably your water pipe comes in through the ground; why isn't it
grounded already?
I must be missing something; I don't even know why you would want it
grounded. Is this a plumbing or electrical issue?



  #10   Report Post  
William Deans
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Greetings,

I understand your logic for why they want it connected -- and it already is
connected with 4 awg solid copper -- but why must it be connected within 6
feet of where it enters the house? The water enters the house on the
opposite side of the basement from where the electrical comes in. There is
a water-pipe which runs right by the circuit breaker. Why run a 40 foot
grounding wire when a 3 foot will do?

William


"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...
Doug is absolutely correct. The reason they want it connected close to the
point the water pipe enters the building is to prevent fault currents from
hurting anyone if a fitting along the pipe gets disconnected. Which is the
same reason you install a jumper around water meters
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
news
In article 1108165344.086189350038cb1a4aa23a6256ddc271@teran ews,
"William Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

I understand that I must ground my water pipe within 6 feet of where it
enters the basement. My circuit breaker box is 40 feet away on the

other
side of the basement. Is there any reason why I cannot just insert
another
grounding rod near where the water pipe enters the basement and ground

it
there? Is there some requirement that the two grounding rods be tied
together by anything but the water pipe?


You're missing the point about this. The idea is not that the water pipe
needs
to be grounded (it already is, by virtue of being buried in the ground).
The
point is that the electrical code requires that metal water piping be
bonded
to the grounding electrode(s) for the electrical service to ensure that
there
cannot be any voltage differential between the plumbing and the

electrical
safety ground. Verify this with the inspector before doing anything, but

I
imagine what he means is that you need to have the grounding bus in your
electrical panel connected to the water pipe, within six feet of where

the
water pipe enters the building -- most readily accomplished by running

an
appropriately-sized copper wire from the panel to within six feet of

where
the
water pipe comes in.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?







  #11   Report Post  
RBM
 
Posts: n/a
Default

William, if you attach the wire to the pipe close to the electric panel and
someone like a plumber,disconnects the pipe between your ground wire and
where the pipe enters the house, and there is a fault current, the plumber
can get electrocuted. I know there are a lot of if's here, but that's the
reason
"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1108170958.2f5d79f7d165805f48344067ea94cc4a@t eranews...
Greetings,

I understand your logic for why they want it connected -- and it already
is
connected with 4 awg solid copper -- but why must it be connected within 6
feet of where it enters the house? The water enters the house on the
opposite side of the basement from where the electrical comes in. There
is
a water-pipe which runs right by the circuit breaker. Why run a 40 foot
grounding wire when a 3 foot will do?

William


"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...
Doug is absolutely correct. The reason they want it connected close to
the
point the water pipe enters the building is to prevent fault currents
from
hurting anyone if a fitting along the pipe gets disconnected. Which is
the
same reason you install a jumper around water meters
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
news
In article 1108165344.086189350038cb1a4aa23a6256ddc271@teran ews,
"William Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

I understand that I must ground my water pipe within 6 feet of where it
enters the basement. My circuit breaker box is 40 feet away on the

other
side of the basement. Is there any reason why I cannot just insert
another
grounding rod near where the water pipe enters the basement and ground

it
there? Is there some requirement that the two grounding rods be tied
together by anything but the water pipe?

You're missing the point about this. The idea is not that the water
pipe
needs
to be grounded (it already is, by virtue of being buried in the
ground).
The
point is that the electrical code requires that metal water piping be
bonded
to the grounding electrode(s) for the electrical service to ensure that
there
cannot be any voltage differential between the plumbing and the

electrical
safety ground. Verify this with the inspector before doing anything,
but

I
imagine what he means is that you need to have the grounding bus in
your
electrical panel connected to the water pipe, within six feet of where

the
water pipe enters the building -- most readily accomplished by running

an
appropriately-sized copper wire from the panel to within six feet of

where
the
water pipe comes in.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his
butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?







  #12   Report Post  
John Grabowski
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Article 250.52(A)(1) of the 2005 NEC: ..... "Interior metal water piping
located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building
shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a
conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding
electrode system."



"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1108170958.2f5d79f7d165805f48344067ea94cc4a@t eranews...
Greetings,

I understand your logic for why they want it connected -- and it already

is
connected with 4 awg solid copper -- but why must it be connected within 6
feet of where it enters the house? The water enters the house on the
opposite side of the basement from where the electrical comes in. There

is
a water-pipe which runs right by the circuit breaker. Why run a 40 foot
grounding wire when a 3 foot will do?

William


"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...
Doug is absolutely correct. The reason they want it connected close to

the
point the water pipe enters the building is to prevent fault currents

from
hurting anyone if a fitting along the pipe gets disconnected. Which is

the
same reason you install a jumper around water meters
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
news
In article 1108165344.086189350038cb1a4aa23a6256ddc271@teran ews,
"William Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

I understand that I must ground my water pipe within 6 feet of where

it
enters the basement. My circuit breaker box is 40 feet away on the

other
side of the basement. Is there any reason why I cannot just insert
another
grounding rod near where the water pipe enters the basement and ground

it
there? Is there some requirement that the two grounding rods be tied
together by anything but the water pipe?

You're missing the point about this. The idea is not that the water

pipe
needs
to be grounded (it already is, by virtue of being buried in the

ground).
The
point is that the electrical code requires that metal water piping be
bonded
to the grounding electrode(s) for the electrical service to ensure

that
there
cannot be any voltage differential between the plumbing and the

electrical
safety ground. Verify this with the inspector before doing anything,

but
I
imagine what he means is that you need to have the grounding bus in

your
electrical panel connected to the water pipe, within six feet of where

the
water pipe enters the building -- most readily accomplished by running

an
appropriately-sized copper wire from the panel to within six feet of

where
the
water pipe comes in.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his

butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?






  #13   Report Post  
William Deans
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Greetings,
Does it actually say that somewhere in the NEC, etc? I don't want my code
inspector making up code to enforce as he goes along. You are allowed to
ground receptacle outlets to pipes when you replace a non-grounding
receptacle outlet with a grounding one. Why don't the plumbers freak out
about that? If the plumber disconnects the pipe between recepticle ground
and the rest of the plumbing system the same problem could occur.

William

"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...
William, if you attach the wire to the pipe close to the electric panel

and
someone like a plumber,disconnects the pipe between your ground wire and
where the pipe enters the house, and there is a fault current, the plumber
can get electrocuted. I know there are a lot of if's here, but that's the
reason
"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1108170958.2f5d79f7d165805f48344067ea94cc4a@t eranews...
Greetings,

I understand your logic for why they want it connected -- and it already
is
connected with 4 awg solid copper -- but why must it be connected within

6
feet of where it enters the house? The water enters the house on the
opposite side of the basement from where the electrical comes in. There
is
a water-pipe which runs right by the circuit breaker. Why run a 40 foot
grounding wire when a 3 foot will do?

William


"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...
Doug is absolutely correct. The reason they want it connected close to
the
point the water pipe enters the building is to prevent fault currents
from
hurting anyone if a fitting along the pipe gets disconnected. Which is
the
same reason you install a jumper around water meters
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
news In article 1108165344.086189350038cb1a4aa23a6256ddc271@teran ews,
"William Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

I understand that I must ground my water pipe within 6 feet of where

it
enters the basement. My circuit breaker box is 40 feet away on the

other
side of the basement. Is there any reason why I cannot just insert
another
grounding rod near where the water pipe enters the basement and

ground
it
there? Is there some requirement that the two grounding rods be tied
together by anything but the water pipe?

You're missing the point about this. The idea is not that the water
pipe
needs
to be grounded (it already is, by virtue of being buried in the
ground).
The
point is that the electrical code requires that metal water piping be
bonded
to the grounding electrode(s) for the electrical service to ensure

that
there
cannot be any voltage differential between the plumbing and the

electrical
safety ground. Verify this with the inspector before doing anything,
but

I
imagine what he means is that you need to have the grounding bus in
your
electrical panel connected to the water pipe, within six feet of

where
the
water pipe enters the building -- most readily accomplished by

running
an
appropriately-sized copper wire from the panel to within six feet of

where
the
water pipe comes in.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his
butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?








  #14   Report Post  
William Deans
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Greetings,

This still doesn't create a requirement for me to ground the circuit breaker
to within a specific number of feet of where the water pipe enters the
building does it? It is only 100 amps service and there is already a
grounding rod with 25 ohms impedance.

Thanks,
William

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...
Article 250.52(A)(1) of the 2005 NEC: ..... "Interior metal water piping
located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building
shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a
conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding
electrode system."



"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1108170958.2f5d79f7d165805f48344067ea94cc4a@t eranews...
Greetings,

I understand your logic for why they want it connected -- and it already

is
connected with 4 awg solid copper -- but why must it be connected within

6
feet of where it enters the house? The water enters the house on the
opposite side of the basement from where the electrical comes in. There

is
a water-pipe which runs right by the circuit breaker. Why run a 40 foot
grounding wire when a 3 foot will do?

William


"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...
Doug is absolutely correct. The reason they want it connected close to

the
point the water pipe enters the building is to prevent fault currents

from
hurting anyone if a fitting along the pipe gets disconnected. Which is

the
same reason you install a jumper around water meters
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
news In article 1108165344.086189350038cb1a4aa23a6256ddc271@teran ews,
"William Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

I understand that I must ground my water pipe within 6 feet of where

it
enters the basement. My circuit breaker box is 40 feet away on the

other
side of the basement. Is there any reason why I cannot just insert
another
grounding rod near where the water pipe enters the basement and

ground
it
there? Is there some requirement that the two grounding rods be

tied
together by anything but the water pipe?

You're missing the point about this. The idea is not that the water

pipe
needs
to be grounded (it already is, by virtue of being buried in the

ground).
The
point is that the electrical code requires that metal water piping

be
bonded
to the grounding electrode(s) for the electrical service to ensure

that
there
cannot be any voltage differential between the plumbing and the

electrical
safety ground. Verify this with the inspector before doing anything,

but
I
imagine what he means is that you need to have the grounding bus in

your
electrical panel connected to the water pipe, within six feet of

where
the
water pipe enters the building -- most readily accomplished by

running
an
appropriately-sized copper wire from the panel to within six feet of

where
the
water pipe comes in.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his

butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?







  #15   Report Post  
RBM
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You may be correct, I think John gave you the exact code. Where I live, it
doesn't matter if its code or inspectors interpretation of code. You need a
certificate and the inspector hold it
"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1108173166.c75a734b6f6a7c00b08e55c59c1095d7@t eranews...
Greetings,
Does it actually say that somewhere in the NEC, etc? I don't want my code
inspector making up code to enforce as he goes along. You are allowed to
ground receptacle outlets to pipes when you replace a non-grounding
receptacle outlet with a grounding one. Why don't the plumbers freak out
about that? If the plumber disconnects the pipe between recepticle ground
and the rest of the plumbing system the same problem could occur.

William

"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...
William, if you attach the wire to the pipe close to the electric panel

and
someone like a plumber,disconnects the pipe between your ground wire and
where the pipe enters the house, and there is a fault current, the
plumber
can get electrocuted. I know there are a lot of if's here, but that's the
reason
"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1108170958.2f5d79f7d165805f48344067ea94cc4a@t eranews...
Greetings,

I understand your logic for why they want it connected -- and it
already
is
connected with 4 awg solid copper -- but why must it be connected
within

6
feet of where it enters the house? The water enters the house on the
opposite side of the basement from where the electrical comes in.
There
is
a water-pipe which runs right by the circuit breaker. Why run a 40
foot
grounding wire when a 3 foot will do?

William


"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...
Doug is absolutely correct. The reason they want it connected close to
the
point the water pipe enters the building is to prevent fault currents
from
hurting anyone if a fitting along the pipe gets disconnected. Which is
the
same reason you install a jumper around water meters
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
news In article 1108165344.086189350038cb1a4aa23a6256ddc271@teran ews,
"William Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

I understand that I must ground my water pipe within 6 feet of where

it
enters the basement. My circuit breaker box is 40 feet away on the
other
side of the basement. Is there any reason why I cannot just insert
another
grounding rod near where the water pipe enters the basement and

ground
it
there? Is there some requirement that the two grounding rods be
tied
together by anything but the water pipe?

You're missing the point about this. The idea is not that the water
pipe
needs
to be grounded (it already is, by virtue of being buried in the
ground).
The
point is that the electrical code requires that metal water piping
be
bonded
to the grounding electrode(s) for the electrical service to ensure

that
there
cannot be any voltage differential between the plumbing and the
electrical
safety ground. Verify this with the inspector before doing anything,
but
I
imagine what he means is that you need to have the grounding bus in
your
electrical panel connected to the water pipe, within six feet of

where
the
water pipe enters the building -- most readily accomplished by

running
an
appropriately-sized copper wire from the panel to within six feet of
where
the
water pipe comes in.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his
butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?












  #16   Report Post  
William Deans
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Greetings,

The code section that John quoted did not appear to establish a requirement
for me to ground to the water pipe within 5/6 feet unless I wanted to use
the water pipe as part of the grounding electrode system which I don't think
I need to do. I already have a grounding rod and the service is 100 amps.
Is there a section within the NEC which requires this?

William

Article 250.52(A)(1) of the 2005 NEC: ..... "Interior metal water piping
located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building
shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a
conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding
electrode system."

William


"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...
You may be correct, I think John gave you the exact code. Where I live, it
doesn't matter if its code or inspectors interpretation of code. You need

a
certificate and the inspector hold it
"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1108173166.c75a734b6f6a7c00b08e55c59c1095d7@t eranews...
Greetings,
Does it actually say that somewhere in the NEC, etc? I don't want my

code
inspector making up code to enforce as he goes along. You are allowed to
ground receptacle outlets to pipes when you replace a non-grounding
receptacle outlet with a grounding one. Why don't the plumbers freak out
about that? If the plumber disconnects the pipe between recepticle

ground
and the rest of the plumbing system the same problem could occur.

William

"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...
William, if you attach the wire to the pipe close to the electric panel

and
someone like a plumber,disconnects the pipe between your ground wire

and
where the pipe enters the house, and there is a fault current, the
plumber
can get electrocuted. I know there are a lot of if's here, but that's

the
reason
"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1108170958.2f5d79f7d165805f48344067ea94cc4a@t eranews...
Greetings,

I understand your logic for why they want it connected -- and it
already
is
connected with 4 awg solid copper -- but why must it be connected
within

6
feet of where it enters the house? The water enters the house on the
opposite side of the basement from where the electrical comes in.
There
is
a water-pipe which runs right by the circuit breaker. Why run a 40
foot
grounding wire when a 3 foot will do?

William


"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...
Doug is absolutely correct. The reason they want it connected close

to
the
point the water pipe enters the building is to prevent fault

currents
from
hurting anyone if a fitting along the pipe gets disconnected. Which

is
the
same reason you install a jumper around water meters
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
news In article 1108165344.086189350038cb1a4aa23a6256ddc271@teran ews,
"William Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

I understand that I must ground my water pipe within 6 feet of

where
it
enters the basement. My circuit breaker box is 40 feet away on

the
other
side of the basement. Is there any reason why I cannot just

insert
another
grounding rod near where the water pipe enters the basement and

ground
it
there? Is there some requirement that the two grounding rods be
tied
together by anything but the water pipe?

You're missing the point about this. The idea is not that the

water
pipe
needs
to be grounded (it already is, by virtue of being buried in the
ground).
The
point is that the electrical code requires that metal water piping
be
bonded
to the grounding electrode(s) for the electrical service to ensure

that
there
cannot be any voltage differential between the plumbing and the
electrical
safety ground. Verify this with the inspector before doing

anything,
but
I
imagine what he means is that you need to have the grounding bus

in
your
electrical panel connected to the water pipe, within six feet of

where
the
water pipe enters the building -- most readily accomplished by

running
an
appropriately-sized copper wire from the panel to within six feet

of
where
the
water pipe comes in.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his
butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?












  #17   Report Post  
toller
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...
Article 250.52(A)(1) of the 2005 NEC: ..... "Interior metal water piping
located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building
shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a
conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding
electrode system."

Okay, a wire to a water pipe does not count as a ground unless it is within
the first 5 feet.
What does that have to do with the inspector's requirement that the pipe be
connected to a ground within the first 6 feet.


  #18   Report Post  
toller
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...
William, if you attach the wire to the pipe close to the electric panel
and someone like a plumber,disconnects the pipe between your ground wire
and where the pipe enters the house, and there is a fault current, the
plumber can get electrocuted. I know there are a lot of if's here, but
that's the reason

That assumes
1) the electrical system is grounded to the water pipes, which appears not
to be the case
2) the ground connection between the electrical system and the utility and
the grounding rod are both open (as they are many times better path to
ground than a plumber could possibly be)

This is pretty silly, but then that doesn't mean you are wrong.


  #19   Report Post  
William Deans
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I think I am going to replace the first 6 feet of water pipe with plastic
and invite the inspector back over.

Deans


"toller" wrote in message
news

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...
Article 250.52(A)(1) of the 2005 NEC: ..... "Interior metal water piping
located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the

building
shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a
conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding
electrode system."

Okay, a wire to a water pipe does not count as a ground unless it is

within
the first 5 feet.
What does that have to do with the inspector's requirement that the pipe

be
connected to a ground within the first 6 feet.




  #20   Report Post  
Steve B.
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:27:56 -0500, "William Deans"
wrote:

I think I am going to replace the first 6 feet of water pipe with plastic
and invite the inspector back over.

Deans

**** off the inspector and see how many things suddenly fail
inspection..... Keep in mind the electrical inspector knows all the
other inspectors and one little Nextel beep can cause you enormous
amounts of grief.

Steve B.




  #21   Report Post  
toller
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1108178866.32048c496692205852b8ada4e5768e80@t eranews...
I think I am going to replace the first 6 feet of water pipe with plastic
and invite the inspector back over.

Sorry, I think you have a moron; but as someone pointed out, he's the
inspector.
I put an addition on my house that removed one window from a bedroom. The
remaining window provided only 90% of the required ventilation. Since the
house had central AC that was pretty irrelevant, but I had to spend $500 to
put in a window 2" wider. (Maybe a bribe would have been cheaper?)
In otherwords, while I would ask him to specify the code section you are in
violation of, you will probably have to put in a ground rod.


  #22   Report Post  
HorneTD
 
Posts: n/a
Default

William Deans wrote:
Greetings,

I think what the inspector means is that he won't count my grounding from
the circuit breaker to the water pipe as a second grounding rod because it
is grounded to the water pipe more than 6 feet from where the water pipe
enters the building. What he actually said though was that the water pipe
needed to be grounded within six feet of where it enters the building.

I called up to ask for clarification and it was reiterated that I needed to
ground the water pipe within six feet of where it enters the building. This
sounded like nonsense to me but I didn't want to argue with the inspector
any more than I already was. Does this rule exist? Every word I say to
this guy he somehow seems to turn into an argument in seconds so I don't
want to get back into it with him. He is very clear on what he wants
"GROUND THE WATER PIPE WITHIN SIX FEET OF ENTERING THE BUILDING" but it
makes no sense to my little non-inspector brain.

Maybe there is a very good reason for it that I just don't understand.

Thank you for your time and energy,
William


William
As you can see by reading the section below the underground metal water
pipe must be used as a grounding electrode. The piping is grounding the
system rather than being grounded. If the interior water piping were
metallic and the underground supply piping were not you would still have
to bond the piping to the grounded service conductor. Bonding
connections can be made at any convenient point in an interior metallic
piping system. A grounding connection to underground metal piping must
be made close to were the piping enters the building in order to reduce
the chance of the grounding connection being isolated from the
underground piping by later changes in the interior piping system. The
conductor that is used to ground the grounded service conductor to the
water piping must be number four AWG copper. The fact that it is over
forty feet away is just tough luck.

250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
If available on the premises at each building or structure served, each
item in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to form the
grounding electrode system. Where none of these electrodes are
available, one or more of the electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4)
through (A)(7) shall be installed and used.
250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in
direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any
metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically
continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating
joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding
electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water
piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the
building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system
or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the
grounding electrode system.
(5) Rod and Pipe Electrodes. Rod and pipe electrodes shall not be less
than 2.5 m (8 ft) in length and shall consist of the following materials.
(a) Electrodes of pipe or conduit shall not be smaller than metric
designator 21 (trade size 3/4) and, where of iron or steel, shall have
the outer surface galvanized or otherwise metal-coated for corrosion
protection.
(b) Electrodes of rods of iron or steel shall be at least 15.87 mm (5/8
in.) in diameter. Stainless steel rods less than 16 mm (5/8 in.) in
diameter, nonferrous rods, or their equivalent shall be listed and shall
not be less than 13 mm (1/2 in.) in diameter.

This next section covers how the Grounding Electrode System is
installed. As you can see it requires that the underground metal water
piping be supplemented by one other electrode to guard against the
possibility that the continuity of the underground metal water piping
will be broken by future plumbing work.

250.53 Grounding Electrode System Installation.
FPN:See 547.9 and 547.10 for special grounding and bonding requirements
for agricultural buildings.
(A) Rod, Pipe, and Plate Electrodes. Where practicable, rod, pipe, and
plate electrodes shall be embedded below permanent moisture level. Rod,
pipe, and plate electrodes shall be free from nonconductive coatings
such as paint or enamel.
(B) Electrode Spacing. Where more than one of the electrodes of the type
specified in 250.52(A)(5) or (A)(6) are used, each electrode of one
grounding system (including that used for air terminals) shall not be
less than 1.83 m (6 ft) from any other electrode of another grounding
system. Two or more grounding electrodes that are effectively bonded
together shall be considered a single grounding electrode system.
(C) Bonding Jumper. The bonding jumper(s) used to connect the grounding
electrodes together to form the grounding electrode system shall be
installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E), shall be sized in
accordance with 250.66, and shall be connected in the manner specified
in 250.70.
(D) Metal Underground Water Pipe. Where used as a grounding electrode,
metal underground water pipe shall meet the requirements of 250.53(D)(1)
and (D)(2).
(1) Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding
connection to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or
filtering devices and similar equipment.
(2) Supplemental Electrode Required. A metal underground water pipe
shall be supplemented by an additional electrode of a type specified in
250.52(A)(2) through (A)(7). Where the supplemental electrode is a rod,
pipe, or plate type, it shall comply with 250.56. The supplemental
electrode shall be permitted to be bonded to the grounding electrode
conductor, the grounded service-entrance conductor, the nonflexible
grounded service raceway, or any grounded service enclosure.

The point of attachment of the Grounding Electrode Conductor is a local
matter. Some electric utilities require that the connection be made in
the meter enclosure while others specifically forbid this. Some
utilities require that it be connected to the grounded service conductor
immediately adjacent to the demarcation point. For an overhead service
the demarcation point is the splices between the overhead service
drop, which is owned and maintained by the utility, and the service
entry conductors, that are owned and maintained by the building owner.

I hope that this answers your question if you have more just ask.
--
Tom H
  #23   Report Post  
Richard B. \(Bruce\) Leiby
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Your local electrical inspector Does NOT know code as well as he would like
to think he does, although he is right up to a certain point. NEC Article
250.52 (A) (1) is what he is "alluding" to!! 250-52 Grounding Electrodes (A)
Electrodes Permitted For Grounding (and then it lists them by numerical
ascension) (1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe
in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any
metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically
continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating
joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding
electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. INTERIOR METAL WATER PIPING
LOCATED MORE THAN 1.52 m (5 ft) FROM THE POINT OF ENTRANCE TO THE BUILDING
"SHALL NOT" BE USED AS A PART OF THE GROUNDING ELECTRODE SYSTEM OR AS A
CONDUCTOR TO INTERCONNECT ELECTRODES THAT ARE PART OF THE GROUNDING
ELECTRODE SYSTEM.
As you can see, it says in the first part that the water supply into the
house CAN be used as an electrode!! The 2nd part is saying if you do use the
water pipe as one of the electrodes, you MUST make the connection WITHIN 5
feet of the "point of entrance" of the water pipe coming into the building!!
So, as you can see, your local electrical inspector is wrong when he
says 6 feet. NEC means 5 feet or LESS!!!!! He needs to get enrolled in a
continuing ed program and stay on top of things!!
And where I live, many is the electrical inspector that has tried to
interprete code his way and I have always "called them" on it. I know the
code well enough that I don't argue with them when I know they may be right,
BUT they know that when I DO argue with them, they are in deep sh_t!!!!!
I make it a habit to make my "grounding electrode connection" on the
street side of the "house" shut-off valve and get it as close to the "point
of entrance" as I can without "straddling" a fitting!!!!!
Hope this helps you.
Bruce Leiby


___________________________________________
RBM wrote:
You may be correct, I think John gave you the exact code. Where I
live, it doesn't matter if its code or inspectors interpretation of
code. You need a certificate and the inspector hold it
"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1108173166.c75a734b6f6a7c00b08e55c59c1095d7@t eranews...
Greetings,
Does it actually say that somewhere in the NEC, etc? I don't want my
code inspector making up code to enforce as he goes along. You are
allowed to ground receptacle outlets to pipes when you replace a
non-grounding receptacle outlet with a grounding one. Why don't the
plumbers freak out about that? If the plumber disconnects the pipe
between recepticle ground and the rest of the plumbing system the
same problem could occur. William

"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...
William, if you attach the wire to the pipe close to the electric
panel and someone like a plumber,disconnects the pipe between your
ground wire and where the pipe enters the house, and there is a
fault current, the plumber
can get electrocuted. I know there are a lot of if's here, but
that's the reason
"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1108170958.2f5d79f7d165805f48344067ea94cc4a@t eranews...
Greetings,

I understand your logic for why they want it connected -- and it
already
is
connected with 4 awg solid copper -- but why must it be connected
within

6
feet of where it enters the house? The water enters the house on
the opposite side of the basement from where the electrical comes
in. There
is
a water-pipe which runs right by the circuit breaker. Why run a 40
foot
grounding wire when a 3 foot will do?

William


"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...
Doug is absolutely correct. The reason they want it connected
close to the
point the water pipe enters the building is to prevent fault
currents from
hurting anyone if a fitting along the pipe gets disconnected.
Which is the
same reason you install a jumper around water meters
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
news In article
1108165344.086189350038cb1a4aa23a6256ddc271@teran ews, "William
Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

I understand that I must ground my water pipe within 6 feet of
where it enters the basement. My circuit breaker box is 40
feet away on the other side of the basement. Is there any
reason why I cannot just insert another
grounding rod near where the water pipe enters the basement and
ground it there? Is there some requirement that the two
grounding rods be tied
together by anything but the water pipe?

You're missing the point about this. The idea is not that the
water pipe
needs
to be grounded (it already is, by virtue of being buried in the
ground).
The
point is that the electrical code requires that metal water
piping be
bonded
to the grounding electrode(s) for the electrical service to
ensure that there
cannot be any voltage differential between the plumbing and the
electrical safety ground. Verify this with the inspector before
doing anything, but
I
imagine what he means is that you need to have the grounding bus
in your
electrical panel connected to the water pipe, within six feet of
where the water pipe enters the building -- most readily
accomplished by running an appropriately-sized copper wire from
the panel to within six feet of where the
water pipe comes in.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on
his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?



  #24   Report Post  
William Deans
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Greetings,

You are right. I thank everyone very very much for their help. This is the
post which clearly shows me the requirements set forth by the NEC requiring
me to run an additional 40 feet of grounding wire in parallel with a 3/4"
copper pipe to within 5 feet of where the water pipe enters the building. I
am still a little worried about the inspector's "six feet" "ground the water
pipe" wording but I am going to try this and see what he says when he comes
back.

You guys are great,
William


"HorneTD" wrote in message
nk.net...
William Deans wrote:
Greetings,

I think what the inspector means is that he won't count my grounding

from
the circuit breaker to the water pipe as a second grounding rod because

it
is grounded to the water pipe more than 6 feet from where the water pipe
enters the building. What he actually said though was that the water

pipe
needed to be grounded within six feet of where it enters the building.

I called up to ask for clarification and it was reiterated that I needed

to
ground the water pipe within six feet of where it enters the building.

This
sounded like nonsense to me but I didn't want to argue with the

inspector
any more than I already was. Does this rule exist? Every word I say to
this guy he somehow seems to turn into an argument in seconds so I don't
want to get back into it with him. He is very clear on what he wants
"GROUND THE WATER PIPE WITHIN SIX FEET OF ENTERING THE BUILDING" but it
makes no sense to my little non-inspector brain.

Maybe there is a very good reason for it that I just don't understand.

Thank you for your time and energy,
William


William
As you can see by reading the section below the underground metal water
pipe must be used as a grounding electrode. The piping is grounding the
system rather than being grounded. If the interior water piping were
metallic and the underground supply piping were not you would still have
to bond the piping to the grounded service conductor. Bonding
connections can be made at any convenient point in an interior metallic
piping system. A grounding connection to underground metal piping must
be made close to were the piping enters the building in order to reduce
the chance of the grounding connection being isolated from the
underground piping by later changes in the interior piping system. The
conductor that is used to ground the grounded service conductor to the
water piping must be number four AWG copper. The fact that it is over
forty feet away is just tough luck.

250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
If available on the premises at each building or structure served, each
item in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to form the
grounding electrode system. Where none of these electrodes are
available, one or more of the electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4)
through (A)(7) shall be installed and used.
250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in
direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any
metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically
continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating
joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding
electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water
piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the
building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system
or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the
grounding electrode system.
(5) Rod and Pipe Electrodes. Rod and pipe electrodes shall not be less
than 2.5 m (8 ft) in length and shall consist of the following materials.
(a) Electrodes of pipe or conduit shall not be smaller than metric
designator 21 (trade size 3/4) and, where of iron or steel, shall have
the outer surface galvanized or otherwise metal-coated for corrosion
protection.
(b) Electrodes of rods of iron or steel shall be at least 15.87 mm (5/8
in.) in diameter. Stainless steel rods less than 16 mm (5/8 in.) in
diameter, nonferrous rods, or their equivalent shall be listed and shall
not be less than 13 mm (1/2 in.) in diameter.

This next section covers how the Grounding Electrode System is
installed. As you can see it requires that the underground metal water
piping be supplemented by one other electrode to guard against the
possibility that the continuity of the underground metal water piping
will be broken by future plumbing work.

250.53 Grounding Electrode System Installation.
FPN:See 547.9 and 547.10 for special grounding and bonding requirements
for agricultural buildings.
(A) Rod, Pipe, and Plate Electrodes. Where practicable, rod, pipe, and
plate electrodes shall be embedded below permanent moisture level. Rod,
pipe, and plate electrodes shall be free from nonconductive coatings
such as paint or enamel.
(B) Electrode Spacing. Where more than one of the electrodes of the type
specified in 250.52(A)(5) or (A)(6) are used, each electrode of one
grounding system (including that used for air terminals) shall not be
less than 1.83 m (6 ft) from any other electrode of another grounding
system. Two or more grounding electrodes that are effectively bonded
together shall be considered a single grounding electrode system.
(C) Bonding Jumper. The bonding jumper(s) used to connect the grounding
electrodes together to form the grounding electrode system shall be
installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E), shall be sized in
accordance with 250.66, and shall be connected in the manner specified
in 250.70.
(D) Metal Underground Water Pipe. Where used as a grounding electrode,
metal underground water pipe shall meet the requirements of 250.53(D)(1)
and (D)(2).
(1) Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding
connection to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or
filtering devices and similar equipment.
(2) Supplemental Electrode Required. A metal underground water pipe
shall be supplemented by an additional electrode of a type specified in
250.52(A)(2) through (A)(7). Where the supplemental electrode is a rod,
pipe, or plate type, it shall comply with 250.56. The supplemental
electrode shall be permitted to be bonded to the grounding electrode
conductor, the grounded service-entrance conductor, the nonflexible
grounded service raceway, or any grounded service enclosure.

The point of attachment of the Grounding Electrode Conductor is a local
matter. Some electric utilities require that the connection be made in
the meter enclosure while others specifically forbid this. Some
utilities require that it be connected to the grounded service conductor
immediately adjacent to the demarcation point. For an overhead service
the demarcation point is the splices between the overhead service
drop, which is owned and maintained by the utility, and the service
entry conductors, that are owned and maintained by the building owner.

I hope that this answers your question if you have more just ask.
--
Tom H



  #25   Report Post  
William Deans
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Greetings,

As it turns out if you have metal water pipe available it "shall be bonded
.... to form the
grounding electrode system" and "interior metal water
piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the
building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system".

William

Thanks to Tom H for the following
==================================
250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
If available on the premises at each building or structure served, each
item in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to form the
grounding electrode system. Where none of these electrodes are
available, one or more of the electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4)
through (A)(7) shall be installed and used.
250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in
direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any
metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically
continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating
joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding
electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water
piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the
building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system
or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the
grounding electrode system.



"Richard B. (Bruce) Leiby" wrote in
message ...
Your local electrical inspector Does NOT know code as well as he would

like
to think he does, although he is right up to a certain point. NEC Article
250.52 (A) (1) is what he is "alluding" to!! 250-52 Grounding Electrodes

(A)
Electrodes Permitted For Grounding (and then it lists them by numerical
ascension) (1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water

pipe
in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any
metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically
continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating
joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding
electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. INTERIOR METAL WATER

PIPING
LOCATED MORE THAN 1.52 m (5 ft) FROM THE POINT OF ENTRANCE TO THE BUILDING
"SHALL NOT" BE USED AS A PART OF THE GROUNDING ELECTRODE SYSTEM OR AS A
CONDUCTOR TO INTERCONNECT ELECTRODES THAT ARE PART OF THE GROUNDING
ELECTRODE SYSTEM.
As you can see, it says in the first part that the water supply into

the
house CAN be used as an electrode!! The 2nd part is saying if you do use

the
water pipe as one of the electrodes, you MUST make the connection WITHIN 5
feet of the "point of entrance" of the water pipe coming into the

building!!
So, as you can see, your local electrical inspector is wrong when he
says 6 feet. NEC means 5 feet or LESS!!!!! He needs to get enrolled in a
continuing ed program and stay on top of things!!
And where I live, many is the electrical inspector that has tried to
interprete code his way and I have always "called them" on it. I know the
code well enough that I don't argue with them when I know they may be

right,
BUT they know that when I DO argue with them, they are in deep sh_t!!!!!
I make it a habit to make my "grounding electrode connection" on the
street side of the "house" shut-off valve and get it as close to the

"point
of entrance" as I can without "straddling" a fitting!!!!!
Hope this helps you.
Bruce Leiby


___________________________________________
RBM wrote:
You may be correct, I think John gave you the exact code. Where I
live, it doesn't matter if its code or inspectors interpretation of
code. You need a certificate and the inspector hold it
"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1108173166.c75a734b6f6a7c00b08e55c59c1095d7@t eranews...
Greetings,
Does it actually say that somewhere in the NEC, etc? I don't want my
code inspector making up code to enforce as he goes along. You are
allowed to ground receptacle outlets to pipes when you replace a
non-grounding receptacle outlet with a grounding one. Why don't the
plumbers freak out about that? If the plumber disconnects the pipe
between recepticle ground and the rest of the plumbing system the
same problem could occur. William

"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...
William, if you attach the wire to the pipe close to the electric
panel and someone like a plumber,disconnects the pipe between your
ground wire and where the pipe enters the house, and there is a
fault current, the plumber
can get electrocuted. I know there are a lot of if's here, but
that's the reason
"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1108170958.2f5d79f7d165805f48344067ea94cc4a@t eranews...
Greetings,

I understand your logic for why they want it connected -- and it
already
is
connected with 4 awg solid copper -- but why must it be connected
within
6
feet of where it enters the house? The water enters the house on
the opposite side of the basement from where the electrical comes
in. There
is
a water-pipe which runs right by the circuit breaker. Why run a 40
foot
grounding wire when a 3 foot will do?

William


"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...
Doug is absolutely correct. The reason they want it connected
close to the
point the water pipe enters the building is to prevent fault
currents from
hurting anyone if a fitting along the pipe gets disconnected.
Which is the
same reason you install a jumper around water meters
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
news In article
1108165344.086189350038cb1a4aa23a6256ddc271@teran ews, "William
Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

I understand that I must ground my water pipe within 6 feet of
where it enters the basement. My circuit breaker box is 40
feet away on the other side of the basement. Is there any
reason why I cannot just insert another
grounding rod near where the water pipe enters the basement and
ground it there? Is there some requirement that the two
grounding rods be tied
together by anything but the water pipe?

You're missing the point about this. The idea is not that the
water pipe
needs
to be grounded (it already is, by virtue of being buried in the
ground).
The
point is that the electrical code requires that metal water
piping be
bonded
to the grounding electrode(s) for the electrical service to
ensure that there
cannot be any voltage differential between the plumbing and the
electrical safety ground. Verify this with the inspector before
doing anything, but
I
imagine what he means is that you need to have the grounding bus
in your
electrical panel connected to the water pipe, within six feet of
where the water pipe enters the building -- most readily
accomplished by running an appropriately-sized copper wire from
the panel to within six feet of where the
water pipe comes in.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on
his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?







  #26   Report Post  
William Deans
 
Posts: n/a
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Greetings,

It's too bad you don't own your own property in (at least some parts of)
America and you couldn't instead use the $500 to take your family on a nice
weekend vacation.

William

"toller" wrote in message
...

"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1108178866.32048c496692205852b8ada4e5768e80@t eranews...
I think I am going to replace the first 6 feet of water pipe with plastic
and invite the inspector back over.

Sorry, I think you have a moron; but as someone pointed out, he's the
inspector.
I put an addition on my house that removed one window from a bedroom. The
remaining window provided only 90% of the required ventilation. Since the
house had central AC that was pretty irrelevant, but I had to spend $500

to
put in a window 2" wider. (Maybe a bribe would have been cheaper?)
In otherwords, while I would ask him to specify the code section you are

in
violation of, you will probably have to put in a ground rod.




  #27   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article 1108173166.c75a734b6f6a7c00b08e55c59c1095d7@teran ews, "William Deans" wrote:
Greetings,
Does it actually say that somewhere in the NEC, etc?


Yes, it does, and it has for quite a while.

"Interior metal water piping located more than 5 feet from the point
of entrance to the building shall not be used as a conductor to interconnect
the [grounding] electrodes and the grounding electrode conductor." [1993 NEC,
Article 250-81]

I don't want my code
inspector making up code to enforce as he goes along.


You're missing several key points here.

First, the NEC *defines* the local inspection authority as the authority on
what's permitted in that jurisdiction:

"The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of the Code will have
the responsibility for making interpretations of the rules... " [Article
90-4]

Note also the Code's definition of the word "approved" as used in the
Code: "Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction."

Second, the Code is *voluntary*. It has no force of law until a jurisdiction
adopts it as the governing electrical code within that jurisdiction, and when
they do so they are free to enact by law whatever exceptions or extensions to
it that they please. Your *local* code may very well be considerably more
restrictive than the NEC. If you have questions about interpretation of
the Code, refer to the portion of Article 90-4 quoted above.

Third, the inspector knows the Code much better than you do, particularly with
respect to what exceptions or extensions may be in force in his jurisdiction.
You have *no* idea whether he's "making up code as he goes along."

Fourth, you don't want to **** him off by suggesting that that's what he's
doing, or he may decide to go *looking* for Code violations that need to be
corrected. He won't have to make any of those up, I guarantee it. I have yet
to see *any* house that doesn't have some violations in it *somewhere*. If the
inspector starts looking for them, he *will* find them. And you'll have to fix
them.

Fifth, the Code says "within 5 feet." The inspector is allowing "within 6
feet". Quit complaining already.

You are allowed to
ground receptacle outlets to pipes when you replace a non-grounding
receptacle outlet with a grounding one.


Wrong, wrong, wrong. Water pipe is *never* permitted to be the *only*
grounding means.

"A metal underground water pipe shall be supplemented by an additional
electrode of a type specified in Section 250-81 or in Section 250-83."
[Article 250-81(a)]

Since it's quite clear that you are not familiar with the Code, may I
respectfully suggest that you stop arguing with your electrical inspector?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
  #28   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article 1108176038.4abe9f130c32678261d87f4b7e2696cc@teran ews, "William Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

The code section that John quoted did not appear to establish a requirement
for me to ground to the water pipe within 5/6 feet unless I wanted to use
the water pipe as part of the grounding electrode system which I don't think
I need to do. I already have a grounding rod and the service is 100 amps.
Is there a section within the NEC which requires this?


Yes, there is. Article 250-81(a) in the 1993 Code (which is all I have at hand
at the moment) *requires* that metal water piping be bonded to the grounding
electrode system. Whether or not you "want" to use the water pipe as part of
the grounding electrode system is immaterial: the Code *requires* it.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
  #29   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , "Richard B. \(Bruce\) Leiby" wrote:
Your local electrical inspector Does NOT know code as well as he would like
to think he does, although he is right up to a certain point.


Actually, he knows it a lot better than you do!

NEC Article
250.52 (A) (1) is what he is "alluding" to!! 250-52 Grounding Electrodes (A)
Electrodes Permitted For Grounding (and then it lists them by numerical
ascension) (1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe
in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any
metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically
continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating
joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding
electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. INTERIOR METAL WATER PIPING
LOCATED MORE THAN 1.52 m (5 ft) FROM THE POINT OF ENTRANCE TO THE BUILDING
"SHALL NOT" BE USED AS A PART OF THE GROUNDING ELECTRODE SYSTEM OR AS A
CONDUCTOR TO INTERCONNECT ELECTRODES THAT ARE PART OF THE GROUNDING
ELECTRODE SYSTEM.
As you can see, it says in the first part that the water supply into the
house CAN be used as an electrode!!


Note that the Code also says that it canNOT be used as the ONLY electrode.

The 2nd part is saying if you do use the
water pipe as one of the electrodes, you MUST make the connection WITHIN 5
feet of the "point of entrance" of the water pipe coming into the building!!


Right so far... but you missed the part where the Code says that "The interior
metal water piping system SHALL BE BONDED..." [my emphasis] to whatever
grounding means is used for the electrical system. In other words, if the
house has metal water piping, you *must* make the connection, *and* that
connection must be within 5 feet etc etc.

So, as you can see, your local electrical inspector is wrong when he
says 6 feet. NEC means 5 feet or LESS!!!!! He needs to get enrolled in a
continuing ed program and stay on top of things!!


The NEC specifically permits local authorities to make interpretations and
exceptions. The inspector is well within the Code by permitting 6 feet instead
of 5. Perhaps YOU need to "get enrolled in a continuing ed program and stay on
top of things" before dispensing advice on subjects you know little about.

And where I live, many is the electrical inspector that has tried to
interprete code his way and I have always "called them" on it. I know the
code well enough that I don't argue with them when I know they may be right,
BUT they know that when I DO argue with them, they are in deep sh_t!!!!!


You apparently don't know the Code very well at all, or you would realize that
the Code *defines* the local inspectors as having authority to interpret what
the Code means.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
  #30   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article 1108173673.ae5c5429f55a0453b9563da1e1b4d8cb@teran ews, "William Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

This still doesn't create a requirement for me to ground the circuit breaker
to within a specific number of feet of where the water pipe enters the
building does it? It is only 100 amps service and there is already a
grounding rod with 25 ohms impedance.


Yes, it does. You can't meet the requirements of the Code by grounding to
water pipe located 40 feet from the point of entrance to the building because
the portion of the pipe between 5 feet and 40 feet is SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED
from being used as a conductor for that purpose. That's exactly what the
article quoted below means.

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...
Article 250.52(A)(1) of the 2005 NEC: ..... "Interior metal water piping
located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building
shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a
conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding
electrode system."


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?


  #31   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , "toller" wrote:
Okay, a wire to a water pipe does not count as a ground unless it is within
the first 5 feet.
What does that have to do with the inspector's requirement that the pipe be
connected to a ground within the first 6 feet.


Article 90-4, paragraph 2: "The authority having jurisdiction may waive
specific requirements in this Code or permit alternate methods where it is
assured that equivalent objectives can be achieved..." It appears that the
local inspection authority has decided that six feet is good enough.

It's also possible that an older version of the NEC said "six feet", not five,
and this jurisdiction adoped that version and hasn't updated since.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
  #32   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article 1108178866.32048c496692205852b8ada4e5768e80@teran ews, "William Deans" wrote:
I think I am going to replace the first 6 feet of water pipe with plastic
and invite the inspector back over.

If you do that, he'll require you to install a bonding jumper around the
plastic.

See point four in my earlier post, about not ****ing off the inspector.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
  #33   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article 1108170751.89a9bbb9fad44af36058302f2e1c2f7e@teran ews, "William Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

The water pipe is connected to the grounding bus but not within 6 feet of
where it enters the house. Why the 6 foot rule? As you say who knows
whether the pipe outside *is* even metal?


Why the six-foot rule? Electrical impedance, that's why.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
  #34   Report Post  
William Deans
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Greetings,

In this case Electrical impedance will be higher by routing the current
through a 4 AWG wire instead of the lower impedance 3/4" Cu pipe. That
doesn't mean it isn't why the rule is written that way-- only that in my
case it shouldn't matter.

William

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article 1108170751.89a9bbb9fad44af36058302f2e1c2f7e@teran ews,

"William Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

The water pipe is connected to the grounding bus but not within 6 feet of
where it enters the house. Why the 6 foot rule? As you say who knows
whether the pipe outside *is* even metal?


Why the six-foot rule? Electrical impedance, that's why.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?



  #35   Report Post  
William Deans
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Greetings,

I think the inspector probably should have said five but said six instead
because he made a mistake or was unsure of the distance. I don't believe he
was giving me an extra foot to be nice or that local code allows for the
extra foot. The real disservice that the inspector did was knowing the code
too well to explain it to me in a way that I understand. He was not willing
to take the extra second to rethink his "ground the water pipe" wording and
to point me to the sections of the code I was in violation of. I am not
dense and I want to comply with code. I try very hard to ensure that
everything I do is up to code and I don't like having to fight with code to
try to determine how to make a building code compliant when it is their job
to ensure that buildings are code compliant. How hard would it have been
for him to quote me a couple sections of the NEC so that I have a better
understanding of the rules so I do not make the mistake again? I know
someone is going to probably say "not his job" but it's my tax dollars and I
would like to think that fostering a better understanding of the code is his
job.

Also, the inspector cannot interpret the code beyond a point. Otherwise he
would simply interpret the code to mean that you must pay him $100 cash
right this instant. There is a review process -- it is just heavily weighed
in their favor.

Just my two cents,
William


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "Richard B. \(Bruce\) Leiby"

wrote:
Your local electrical inspector Does NOT know code as well as he would

like
to think he does, although he is right up to a certain point.


Actually, he knows it a lot better than you do!

NEC Article
250.52 (A) (1) is what he is "alluding" to!! 250-52 Grounding Electrodes

(A)
Electrodes Permitted For Grounding (and then it lists them by numerical
ascension) (1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water

pipe
in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any
metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically
continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating
joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding
electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. INTERIOR METAL WATER

PIPING
LOCATED MORE THAN 1.52 m (5 ft) FROM THE POINT OF ENTRANCE TO THE

BUILDING
"SHALL NOT" BE USED AS A PART OF THE GROUNDING ELECTRODE SYSTEM OR AS A
CONDUCTOR TO INTERCONNECT ELECTRODES THAT ARE PART OF THE GROUNDING
ELECTRODE SYSTEM.
As you can see, it says in the first part that the water supply into

the
house CAN be used as an electrode!!


Note that the Code also says that it canNOT be used as the ONLY electrode.

The 2nd part is saying if you do use the
water pipe as one of the electrodes, you MUST make the connection WITHIN

5
feet of the "point of entrance" of the water pipe coming into the

building!!

Right so far... but you missed the part where the Code says that "The

interior
metal water piping system SHALL BE BONDED..." [my emphasis] to whatever
grounding means is used for the electrical system. In other words, if the
house has metal water piping, you *must* make the connection, *and* that
connection must be within 5 feet etc etc.

So, as you can see, your local electrical inspector is wrong when he
says 6 feet. NEC means 5 feet or LESS!!!!! He needs to get enrolled in a
continuing ed program and stay on top of things!!


The NEC specifically permits local authorities to make interpretations and
exceptions. The inspector is well within the Code by permitting 6 feet

instead
of 5. Perhaps YOU need to "get enrolled in a continuing ed program and

stay on
top of things" before dispensing advice on subjects you know little about.

And where I live, many is the electrical inspector that has tried to
interprete code his way and I have always "called them" on it. I know the
code well enough that I don't argue with them when I know they may be

right,
BUT they know that when I DO argue with them, they are in deep sh_t!!!!!


You apparently don't know the Code very well at all, or you would realize

that
the Code *defines* the local inspectors as having authority to interpret

what
the Code means.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?





  #36   Report Post  
William Deans
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Greetings,

What you say is true about him being able to give me six feet instead of
five if he wanted to ... in this case I think it was probably a mistake.

William

PS: I am going away for a long weekend. If I cannot respond to more posts
it doesn't mean I won't read them when I get back or that I have clamed up.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "toller"

wrote:
Okay, a wire to a water pipe does not count as a ground unless it is

within
the first 5 feet.
What does that have to do with the inspector's requirement that the pipe

be
connected to a ground within the first 6 feet.


Article 90-4, paragraph 2: "The authority having jurisdiction may waive
specific requirements in this Code or permit alternate methods where it is
assured that equivalent objectives can be achieved..." It appears that the
local inspection authority has decided that six feet is good enough.

It's also possible that an older version of the NEC said "six feet", not

five,
and this jurisdiction adoped that version and hasn't updated since.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?



  #37   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article 1108220327.a3176bdeaa77a43ddf6799eb8958adf8@teran ews, "William Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

I think the inspector probably should have said five but said six instead
because he made a mistake or was unsure of the distance. I don't believe he
was giving me an extra foot to be nice or that local code allows for the
extra foot.


I doubt very much that the inspector was unsure of the distance, or made a
mistake -- and you have no basis for supposing that the local code doesn't
allow for the extra foot. As I pointed out in another post, it's very
possible, perhaps likely, that the governing ordinance in your jurisdiction is
an older version of the NEC in which the requirement *is* 6 feet.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
  #38   Report Post  
HorneTD
 
Posts: n/a
Default

toller wrote:
"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...

William, if you attach the wire to the pipe close to the electric panel
and someone like a plumber,disconnects the pipe between your ground wire
and where the pipe enters the house, and there is a fault current, the
plumber can get electrocuted. I know there are a lot of if's here, but
that's the reason


That assumes
1) the electrical system is grounded to the water pipes, which appears not
to be the case
2) the ground connection between the electrical system and the utility and
the grounding rod are both open (as they are many times better path to
ground than a plumber could possibly be)

This is pretty silly, but then that doesn't mean you are wrong.


I'm a Firefighter / Rescuer (FF/EMT) for my community and I have
responded to four different electrical injuries caused by bad grounding.
Two of those were working codes and one of those didn't make it. I
am only one EMT out of the thousands that serve in the nation so I
cannot believe that such occurrences are as rare as some of you seem to
think.

The impedance of two eight foot ground rods driven only the requisite
six feet apart is often over fifty ohms. The impedance of the
underground metal water piping is usually less than ten ohms because it
is part of a network of underground piping that interconnects the
neutrals of all the electrical services in the area. There are still
many water utilities that do not permit plastic piping for service
laterals. It is your electrical inspectors job to know if yours is one
of them.

If you loose the low impedance underground metal water piping grounding
electrode a plumber or water meter mechanic kneeling on a concrete
basement floor may well have a low enough impedance to suffer an
injurious or fatal shock.

It only takes thirty volts to overcome the skin resistance of a healthy
adult and it only takes ten milliamperes to cause a fatal cardiac
dysrhythmia called ventricular fibrillation. If the neutral service
conductor does fail 120 volts is imposed upon the grounding electrode
system. The resultant current flow divides in proportion to the
impedance of the electrodes that make up the grounding electrode system.
If the plumbing pipe connection has been broken by alterations or
repair a human in contact with any part of the grounding system could
well find themselves in deadly danger.
--
Tom H
  #39   Report Post  
John Grabowski
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Tom,

I just wanted you to know that I found out that you were correct concerning
the need for a ground rod in a separate building. I recently attended some
continuing ed. classes to maintain my license and both instructors brought
that issue up in class without prompting from me. It turns out that it is a
common misconception even among professionals that the equipment grounding
conductor alone will satisfy the code requirements.

As for William Deans; If he had spent half as much time installing that
grounding conductor on the water pipe where the inspector told him to
instead of wasting time trying to find an excuse not to, he would have a
nice, safe, code compliant grounding electrode system. I wonder if the
inspector told him to bond the gas pipe also?


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv



"HorneTD" wrote in message
ink.net...
toller wrote:
"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...

William, if you attach the wire to the pipe close to the electric panel
and someone like a plumber,disconnects the pipe between your ground wire
and where the pipe enters the house, and there is a fault current, the
plumber can get electrocuted. I know there are a lot of if's here, but
that's the reason


That assumes
1) the electrical system is grounded to the water pipes, which appears

not
to be the case
2) the ground connection between the electrical system and the utility

and
the grounding rod are both open (as they are many times better path to
ground than a plumber could possibly be)

This is pretty silly, but then that doesn't mean you are wrong.


I'm a Firefighter / Rescuer (FF/EMT) for my community and I have
responded to four different electrical injuries caused by bad grounding.
Two of those were working codes and one of those didn't make it. I
am only one EMT out of the thousands that serve in the nation so I
cannot believe that such occurrences are as rare as some of you seem to
think.

The impedance of two eight foot ground rods driven only the requisite
six feet apart is often over fifty ohms. The impedance of the
underground metal water piping is usually less than ten ohms because it
is part of a network of underground piping that interconnects the
neutrals of all the electrical services in the area. There are still
many water utilities that do not permit plastic piping for service
laterals. It is your electrical inspectors job to know if yours is one
of them.

If you loose the low impedance underground metal water piping grounding
electrode a plumber or water meter mechanic kneeling on a concrete
basement floor may well have a low enough impedance to suffer an
injurious or fatal shock.

It only takes thirty volts to overcome the skin resistance of a healthy
adult and it only takes ten milliamperes to cause a fatal cardiac
dysrhythmia called ventricular fibrillation. If the neutral service
conductor does fail 120 volts is imposed upon the grounding electrode
system. The resultant current flow divides in proportion to the
impedance of the electrodes that make up the grounding electrode system.
If the plumbing pipe connection has been broken by alterations or
repair a human in contact with any part of the grounding system could
well find themselves in deadly danger.
--
Tom H


  #40   Report Post  
Geoman
 
Posts: n/a
Default

What if the entire home is PVC or PEX, and the service is Plastic as well?
It seems this inspector wants it on both. Or did I read into the first post
something not there?

Rich

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article 1108176038.4abe9f130c32678261d87f4b7e2696cc@teran ews,
"William Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

The code section that John quoted did not appear to establish a
requirement
for me to ground to the water pipe within 5/6 feet unless I wanted to use
the water pipe as part of the grounding electrode system which I don't
think
I need to do. I already have a grounding rod and the service is 100 amps.
Is there a section within the NEC which requires this?


Yes, there is. Article 250-81(a) in the 1993 Code (which is all I have at
hand
at the moment) *requires* that metal water piping be bonded to the
grounding
electrode system. Whether or not you "want" to use the water pipe as part
of
the grounding electrode system is immaterial: the Code *requires* it.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?



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