OK, so my old furnace dies, and I blow $3850 on a new one + some major
duct rework.

Maytag 100 BTU, 2 stage furnace, 1 year old Trane AC units

They completely redo the supply side to my E side of the house (ranch
w/ BRs there) and completely redo the return to the E side (since one
was never done). The BRs did not have returns, so those were added.

Here are my Qs:
What does the 2 stage furnace buy me? Do I need a 2 stage thermostat
then?

They suggested I just leave my blower on 24x7 to get more even heat/ac
distribution and to continuously filter the air. Sounds logical -- is
it?

On my ac evaporator they plumbed 2 drain lines (Trane unit). One has
PVC pipe all the way to the drain, the other has just a short pvc line
directed towards the floor.

What is the significance to bending the refrigerant lines? The lines
come into the house, are bent 90 to the N then 90 to the W then 90
down then 45, then back 45, and then 90 into the evaporator. The last
45-45-90 could be replace by two 45s (they just left the old 90 on and
used the pair of 45s redirect the bad 90. Should I make them simplify
the connection? or is the extra 90 no big deal?

Thanks, this will be a big relief.

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 15:18:46 -0700,
wrote:

OK, so my old furnace dies, and I blow $3850 on a new one + some major
duct rework.

Maytag 100 BTU, 2 stage furnace, 1 year old Trane AC units

They completely redo the supply side to my E side of the house (ranch
w/ BRs there) and completely redo the return to the E side (since one
was never done). The BRs did not have returns, so those were added.

Here are my Qs:
What does the 2 stage furnace buy me? Do I need a 2 stage thermostat
then?

They suggested I just leave my blower on 24x7 to get more even heat/ac
distribution and to continuously filter the air. Sounds logical -- is
it?

On my ac evaporator they plumbed 2 drain lines (Trane unit). One has
PVC pipe all the way to the drain, the other has just a short pvc line
directed towards the floor.

What is the significance to bending the refrigerant lines? The lines
come into the house, are bent 90 to the N then 90 to the W then 90
down then 45, then back 45, and then 90 into the evaporator. The last
45-45-90 could be replace by two 45s (they just left the old 90 on and
used the pair of 45s redirect the bad 90. Should I make them simplify
the connection? or is the extra 90 no big deal?

Thanks, this will be a big relief.

Maytag is made by Nordyne. I find lots of these (Maytag, Nordyne,
Gibson, Frigidare, Intertherm, etc) installed in trailers. Its a unit.
Nothing to brag about here.
2 stage gives you 2 different heating btus. 100K on high fire and
about 80K on low fire.
If you paid for a 2 stage unit you should have a 2 stage thermostat
installed. This way the thermostat senses whether you should have low
or high fire going. With a single stage stat, the high fire is
initiated by time set on your furnace circuit board (somewhere between
8 and 15 mins).
If they suggested you leave the blower on 24x7 then you should have
gotten the variable speed unit. You can still add that as an option.
It will save you on your electrical consumption if you plan on running
your blower 24x7. Running it constantly will cause your home to have
more even temperatures throughout your home however a constantly
blowing unit can feel drafty in the winter after the burners have gone
off. Its mainly up to you as a comfort level.
Your second drain piped halfway down is an overflow drain. IF you look
at them, you will see that one is slightly higher where it comes out
of your coil. If you see water coming from that one, your main drain
is clogged.
Bending the refrigerant lines?
It sounds like you are describing some sort of "P-trap" in your
refrigerant lines? Most manufacturers, including Trane dont use them
anymore unless your cooling coil and your outdoor unit are separated
in height by more than 20 feet or so. You will need to look in your
A/C installation manual for the exact heights and requirements.
Otherwise, in general, the fewer bends and elbows, the better. It just
ads up to more friction/restriction in the line.
Bubba

wrote:
OK, so my old furnace dies, and I blow $3850 on a new one + some major
duct rework.

Maytag 100 BTU, 2 stage furnace, 1 year old Trane AC units

They completely redo the supply side to my E side of the house (ranch
w/ BRs there) and completely redo the return to the E side (since one
was never done). The BRs did not have returns, so those were added.

Here are my Qs:
What does the 2 stage furnace buy me? Do I need a 2 stage thermostat
then?

You should have a two stage thermostat to get the most out of your new
furnace, but it should work on a single stage.

As to why a two stage is good, I stole this off the Lennox site, I doubt
if they will mind. It is good information.


Two-stage heating means the furnace has two levels of heat output: high for
cold winter days and low for milder days. Since the low setting is adequate
to meet household-cooling demands 80% of the time, a two-stage unit runs for
longer periods and provides more even heat distribution.

Longer, low-capacity operation has many advantages:
Consistent comfort
Two-stage heating eliminates the temperature swings associated with standard
furnaces, regulating temperature to within as little as one degree of the
thermostat setting.

Quiet operation
Two-stage furnaces start in the first stage, when the amount of heat
required is lower, instead of reaching full capacity all at once. That means
there's no sudden "kick" or blast of air.

Improved air filtration
Low-speed operation allows your filters to capture more contaminants
(because air is constantly passing through them), so you can breathe easier.

Efficient performance
Because the furnace operates mostly in its lower-capacity first stage, it
burns less fuel than a standard furnace that always runs at full capacity
and shuts off when the heating demand has been met.


They suggested I just leave my blower on 24x7 to get more even heat/ac
distribution and to continuously filter the air. Sounds logical -- is
it?


You should get most of the advantages with the two stage unit. 24x7
will give you even more advantage, but also more cost and noise etc. It's
your call.

On my ac evaporator they plumbed 2 drain lines (Trane unit). One has
PVC pipe all the way to the drain, the other has just a short pvc line
directed towards the floor.

Just guessing, the second one is an overflow and when you see it
draining you know the other is clogged. Not a bad idea if you don't have
anything valuable on the floor between it and the drain.


What is the significance to bending the refrigerant lines? The lines
come into the house, are bent 90 to the N then 90 to the W then 90
down then 45, then back 45, and then 90 into the evaporator. The last
45-45-90 could be replace by two 45s (they just left the old 90 on and
used the pair of 45s redirect the bad 90. Should I make them simplify
the connection? or is the extra 90 no big deal?

Total SWAG with very little "S" work here. It may help in vibration,
expansion and contraction or maybe they needed to use up a couple feet of
pipe.


Thanks, this will be a big relief.

--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

So I took out my Coleman (which everyone told me was for trailer
homes) and put in a Maytag (which at least you are telling me is about
the same). I thought Maytag has somewhat of a high quality perception
(at least a perception). The warranty was good, I guess. 10 years
with a full replacement up to 5. Personally, both seem pretty
pathetic. I know a lot of old houses where the furnaces have been
running for 20 or 30 or more years.

The refrigerant "extra bends" is unlikely by design. When they put in
the new furnace they "cleaned up" some of their shoddy work from the
AC install. They spun the evap. 180 degress to put the lines on the
same side as the furnace connections (back side is now clear of lines,
etc). There was an elbow on the line into the evap. They pulled the
new lines down at about a 90 deg. angle (imagine line coming from East
and making a 90 to be bending down. Line is now running straight
down, let's call this 180 deg.) They then put on a 45 (225 deg)
attached to about 12" of pipe to another 45 back (back to 180 deg. or
straight down) and into that 90 that turns (270 deg now) and goes into
evap. IMO, that 90 is NOT needed. the straight down could hit a 45
then extend to evap and then attach to another 45. If they had enough
line, they could have just made a 180 sweeping curve and been done
with it. Not enough line and they had to muck around with fittings
and short sections of pipe.

as best as I can draw is he

90 curve furn rm--90 curve to W--90 curve to N--condensor
| (downward)
|
|
45 fitting
\
\
45 fitting
|
|
90 fitting --- evaporator


the small dia. pipe is just bent around to go straight into the evap.
the small pipe i understand is the return refrigerant.

i'm no fluid mechanices expert, but I've setup a dust collection
system in my shop, and rule #1 is minimize bends.


On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 00:01:47 GMT, Bubba
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 15:18:46 -0700,
wrote:

OK, so my old furnace dies, and I blow $3850 on a new one + some major
duct rework.

Maytag 100 BTU, 2 stage furnace, 1 year old Trane AC units

They completely redo the supply side to my E side of the house (ranch
w/ BRs there) and completely redo the return to the E side (since one
was never done). The BRs did not have returns, so those were added.

Here are my Qs:
What does the 2 stage furnace buy me? Do I need a 2 stage thermostat
then?

They suggested I just leave my blower on 24x7 to get more even heat/ac
distribution and to continuously filter the air. Sounds logical -- is
it?

On my ac evaporator they plumbed 2 drain lines (Trane unit). One has
PVC pipe all the way to the drain, the other has just a short pvc line
directed towards the floor.

What is the significance to bending the refrigerant lines? The lines
come into the house, are bent 90 to the N then 90 to the W then 90
down then 45, then back 45, and then 90 into the evaporator. The last
45-45-90 could be replace by two 45s (they just left the old 90 on and
used the pair of 45s redirect the bad 90. Should I make them simplify
the connection? or is the extra 90 no big deal?

Thanks, this will be a big relief.

Maytag is made by Nordyne. I find lots of these (Maytag, Nordyne,
Gibson, Frigidare, Intertherm, etc) installed in trailers. Its a unit.
Nothing to brag about here.
2 stage gives you 2 different heating btus. 100K on high fire and
about 80K on low fire.
If you paid for a 2 stage unit you should have a 2 stage thermostat
installed. This way the thermostat senses whether you should have low
or high fire going. With a single stage stat, the high fire is
initiated by time set on your furnace circuit board (somewhere between
8 and 15 mins).
If they suggested you leave the blower on 24x7 then you should have
gotten the variable speed unit. You can still add that as an option.
It will save you on your electrical consumption if you plan on running
your blower 24x7. Running it constantly will cause your home to have
more even temperatures throughout your home however a constantly
blowing unit can feel drafty in the winter after the burners have gone
off. Its mainly up to you as a comfort level.
Your second drain piped halfway down is an overflow drain. IF you look
at them, you will see that one is slightly higher where it comes out
of your coil. If you see water coming from that one, your main drain
is clogged.
Bending the refrigerant lines?
It sounds like you are describing some sort of "P-trap" in your
refrigerant lines? Most manufacturers, including Trane dont use them
anymore unless your cooling coil and your outdoor unit are separated
in height by more than 20 feet or so. You will need to look in your
A/C installation manual for the exact heights and requirements.
Otherwise, in general, the fewer bends and elbows, the better. It just
ads up to more friction/restriction in the line.
Bubba

'Here are my Qs:
What does the 2 stage furnace buy me? Do I need a 2 stage thermostat
then?'

The 2 stage furnace buys you some greater economy during times of the
heating season when you are not at full heating load (as determined by
the outdoor temperature for your locale). THis is obviously most of the
time. So, 2 stage operation of a furnace is almost always a good
feature. You dont necessarily need a 2 stage thermostat ; some
manufacturers of furnaces bring on the 2nd stage after 'x' amount of
minutes while others base it on how long it took the previous cycle to
complete the task of satisfying the thermostat (runtime). The installer
should know if a 2stage stat was absolutely required or not.

'They suggested I just leave my blower on 24x7 to get more even heat/ac
distribution and to continuously filter the air. Sounds logical -- is
it?'

Its good if you want a cleaner house ; it tends to work out ok for a/c
use, but, for heating...when the burners are not firing, youll feel the
cooler air objectionable especially if youre anywhere near a supply air
register. Try it and see how it is for you.

'On my ac evaporator they plumbed 2 drain lines (Trane unit). One has
PVC pipe all the way to the drain, the other has just a short pvc line
directed towards the floor.'

THis is common. The pvc drain plumbed toward the floor is your
backup/secondary overflow in case the other one becomes plugged up .

'What is the significance to bending the refrigerant lines? The lines
come into the house, are bent 90 to the N then 90 to the W then 90 down
then 45, then back 45, and then 90 into the evaporator. The last
45-45-90 could be replace by two 45s (they just left the old 90 on and
used the pair of 45s redirect the bad 90. Should I make them simplify
the connection? or is the extra 90 no big deal?'

Its not a big deal 99..9 percent of the time. When running freon lines,
you always want to try to make long radius turns or 45's if practical ;
It reduces the internal friction and reduces the change of kinking which
is more prone to doing 90's especially with the larger suction tubing
which is insulated. It also enables better oil return to the compressor
under many situations. I wouldnt insist they redo it.

Regards.

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:32:39 -0600, (Hello
Friend) wrote:

'Here are my Qs:
What does the 2 stage furnace buy me? Do I need a 2 stage thermostat
then?'

The 2 stage furnace buys you some greater economy during times of the
heating season when you are not at full heating load (as determined by
the outdoor temperature for your locale). THis is obviously most of the
time. So, 2 stage operation of a furnace is almost always a good
feature. You dont necessarily need a 2 stage thermostat ; some
manufacturers of furnaces bring on the 2nd stage after 'x' amount of
minutes while others base it on how long it took the previous cycle to
complete the task of satisfying the thermostat (runtime). The installer
should know if a 2stage stat was absolutely required or not.


Hey Hello Friend.
You are a clueless dolt. You dont get "greater economy" from a 2 stage
furnace. You get greater comfort. If you heat on low fire it runs
longer. High fire heats faster. You still have to heat it.
You also dont know thermostats. IF you pay for a 2 stage furnace you
should insist on a two stage stat.

'They suggested I just leave my blower on 24x7 to get more even heat/ac
distribution and to continuously filter the air. Sounds logical -- is
it?'

Its good if you want a cleaner house ; it tends to work out ok for a/c
use, but, for heating...when the burners are not firing, youll feel the
cooler air objectionable especially if youre anywhere near a supply air
register. Try it and see how it is for you.


A "24x7" blower gives you a cleaner house? Ok, You are a ****ing idiot
now. What do you do in your spare time? Locksmithing?

'On my ac evaporator they plumbed 2 drain lines (Trane unit). One has
PVC pipe all the way to the drain, the other has just a short pvc line
directed towards the floor.'

THis is common. The pvc drain plumbed toward the floor is your
backup/secondary overflow in case the other one becomes plugged up .

'What is the significance to bending the refrigerant lines? The lines
come into the house, are bent 90 to the N then 90 to the W then 90 down
then 45, then back 45, and then 90 into the evaporator. The last
45-45-90 could be replace by two 45s (they just left the old 90 on and
used the pair of 45s redirect the bad 90. Should I make them simplify
the connection? or is the extra 90 no big deal?'

Its not a big deal 99..9 percent of the time. When running freon lines,
you always want to try to make long radius turns or 45's if practical ;
It reduces the internal friction and reduces the change of kinking which
is more prone to doing 90's especially with the larger suction tubing
which is insulated. It also enables better oil return to the compressor
under many situations. I wouldnt insist they redo it.

Regards.

Wrong again duffus. Kinking is done by improperly bending pipe. Thats
why they make tube benders and bending springs. Oh, thats right, You
cant afford either. You live in a trailer.
Oil return is accomplished with a properly sized line set, you bone
head. Longer vertical lengths require P-traps to accomplish the oil
return. Manufacturers specs need to be checked for proper sizes and
lengths. You need to stick to something you know how to do and HVAC
AINT one of them.
Bubba

The furnace model is Maytag PGF1TA100CVBB, which I interpret to be the
80 effciency, variable speed, 2 stage, 100 btu (per the Maytag
website)

a 2 stage thermostat, I looked at the wiring diagram on the
furnace and it shows the normal 4 wires from the thermostat, R, W, G,
Y; nothing near as I can tell about some extra wires for a 2 stage
thermostat. Now, there are a pair of wires coming in from the AC
condensor, apparently an outside air temperature. Those go to both
the humidifier and furnace. The website mentions using the outside
air temp to determine the low or high output.

leaving furnace on 24x7. The fan only option runs the fan at a
slower speed than when the furnace fires. According the the specs,
the is a VS unit. If VS though, doesn't that imply many speeds from 0
to X? Is there a way to set those? Or is there some optimal logic
to set both fan-only speed and heat/ac speed?

ac evaporator drain lines. It kindof makes sense to have a main
drain and backup drain. With my logic though, it does not make sense
to drain one to the floor drain and the other just onto the floor next
to the furnace. When I'm on vacation for 2 weeks, that 2nd option is
going to aggrevate me. Why not route both to the floor drain? I
suppose the opposing logic is then the "user" will realize they have a
block in the mainline.

the extra 90 bend in the incoming refrigerant line. This IMO is
just common sense -- minimize bends in any fluid or gas line. They
just did not want to cut off the 90 that was already there. So they
added an extra 90 degress of bend to make it work. Shody IMO.

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 15:18:46 -0700,
wrote:

OK, so my old furnace dies, and I blow $3850 on a new one + some major
duct rework.

Maytag 100 BTU, 2 stage furnace, 1 year old Trane AC units

They completely redo the supply side to my E side of the house (ranch
w/ BRs there) and completely redo the return to the E side (since one
was never done). The BRs did not have returns, so those were added.

Here are my Qs:
What does the 2 stage furnace buy me? Do I need a 2 stage thermostat
then?

They suggested I just leave my blower on 24x7 to get more even heat/ac
distribution and to continuously filter the air. Sounds logical -- is
it?

On my ac evaporator they plumbed 2 drain lines (Trane unit). One has
PVC pipe all the way to the drain, the other has just a short pvc line
directed towards the floor.

What is the significance to bending the refrigerant lines? The lines
come into the house, are bent 90 to the N then 90 to the W then 90
down then 45, then back 45, and then 90 into the evaporator. The last
45-45-90 could be replace by two 45s (they just left the old 90 on and
used the pair of 45s redirect the bad 90. Should I make them simplify
the connection? or is the extra 90 no big deal?

Thanks, this will be a big relief.

'Hey Hello Friend.
You are a clueless dolt. You dont get "greater economy" from a 2 stage
furnace. You get greater comfort. If you heat on low fire it runs
longer. High fire heats faster. You still have to heat it. You also dont
know thermostats. IF you pay for a 2 stage furnace you should insist on
a two stage stat.'

Hey ! Hows it going ?! YOURE WRONG ! Matching the load to the
appropriate stage ... offers economy. Just ask Trane ! Also, you dont
necessarily need a 2 stage thermostat ; some manufacturers use an
adaptive type of 2nd stage determination which is built into the circuit
board. Carrier is one such manufacturer. Just ask Carrier !

'A "24x7" blower gives you a cleaner house? Ok, You are a ****ing idiot
now. What do you do in your spare time? Locksmithing?'

If you run the blower all the time, you are continually cleaning the air
all the time thru the filter. This is soooo fundamental ! Just ask
Honneywell !

'Wrong again duffus. Kinking is done by improperly bending pipe. Thats
why they make tube benders and bending springs. Oh, thats right, You
cant afford either. You live in a trailer.'

Thats right...making sharp bends increases the chance of kinking. Thats
why i said make large radius bends or 45's. No...i dont live in a
trailer ; Just ask my Accountant !

'Oil return is accomplished with a properly sized line set, you bone
head. Longer vertical lengths require P-traps to accomplish the oil
return.'

I never said it wasnt. Oil return is favorable to running the line set
as direct as possible and with as few turns as practical. Just refer to
the a/c manufacturers instuction manual !

'You need to stick to something you know how to do and HVAC AINT one of
them.
Bubba'

ITs too bad you feel insecure when its so unnecessary ; and its too bad
that you have willingly adopted a crummy persona with a chip on your
shoulder . Just read the book : How to win friends and influence people
!

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:45:06 -0600, (Hello
Friend) wrote:

'Hey Hello Friend.
You are a clueless dolt. You dont get "greater economy" from a 2 stage
furnace. You get greater comfort. If you heat on low fire it runs
longer. High fire heats faster. You still have to heat it. You also dont
know thermostats. IF you pay for a 2 stage furnace you should insist on
a two stage stat.'

Hey ! Hows it going ?! YOURE WRONG ! Matching the load to the
appropriate stage ... offers economy. Just ask Trane ! Also, you dont
necessarily need a 2 stage thermostat ; some manufacturers use an
adaptive type of 2nd stage determination which is built into the circuit
board. Carrier is one such manufacturer. Just ask Carrier !

Again! You are WRONG! A 2 Stg stats offers much more accurate heating
needs than some circuit board on a furnace with a 8, 12, or 15 minute
guess. The board is programmed to turn the second stage of heat on
after the time selected by the technician using whatever pin selection
he picked during the install (if that even gets done). The thermostat
method is much more accurate and senses actual conditions.
If you put a single stage thermostat on a 2 stage system, you are a
cheap hack. Spend a few more dollars on the proper 2 stage thermostat
and make it work like it should.

'A "24x7" blower gives you a cleaner house? Ok, You are a ****ing idiot
now. What do you do in your spare time? Locksmithing?'

If you run the blower all the time, you are continually cleaning the air
all the time thru the filter. This is soooo fundamental ! Just ask
Honneywell !

Wrong! Blowing air does not clean air. A properly sized, properly
selected, properly installed air filtration system cleans your air.
Hint: Those .95 cent fiberglass spun filters do not clean air.

'Wrong again duffus. Kinking is done by improperly bending pipe. Thats
why they make tube benders and bending springs. Oh, thats right, You
cant afford either. You live in a trailer.'

Thats right...making sharp bends increases the chance of kinking. Thats
why i said make large radius bends or 45's. No...i dont live in a
trailer ; Just ask my Accountant !

Why? Does he live with you?

'Oil return is accomplished with a properly sized line set, you bone
head. Longer vertical lengths require P-traps to accomplish the oil
return.'

I never said it wasnt. Oil return is favorable to running the line set
as direct as possible and with as few turns as practical. Just refer to
the a/c manufacturers instuction manual !

It doesnt have to be run direct and I can use lots of elbows if I
want. I just have to make sure it is properly sized so as to not
increase the friction enough that it wont return the proper amount of
oil and of course, refrigerant.



'You need to stick to something you know how to do and HVAC AINT one of
them.
Bubba'

ITs too bad you feel insecure when its so unnecessary ; and its too bad
that you have willingly adopted a crummy persona with a chip on your
shoulder . Just read the book : How to win friends and influence people
!

Its too bad you dont have a clue what you think you know nothing
about. Regirgitating bullcrap that you know nothing about helps no
one.
Bubba