I wired my finished basement myself. In general everything was fine, I had
it inspected before insulating walls and ceiling and putting drywall. I have
been using power in basement for over the year and nothing was wrong.
However, on final inspection the electrical inspector and I found a very
weird problem that I need now to correct. I have the following wiring
diagram in basement:

- dedicated 20 A circuit to basement lighting, total 26 recessed lights 65 W
and 50 W
- dedicated 20 A circuit for basement rooms receptacles
- dedicated 20 A circuit for sump pump
- dedicated 20 A circuit for washer / gas dryer
- dedicated 20 A circuit sewer ejector pump
- dedicated 20 A circuit for basement bath
- dedicated 20 A circuit for garage receptacles
- 50 A basement workshop sub-panel powering 5 dedicated 115 V / 20 A, 2 220
V / 20 A shop receptacles circuits, and 1 15 A shop lights circuit

When I switched off basement room receptacles circuit breaker while all
others except sub-panel which does not seem to affect the problem were on we
found there is 8 V power in that circuit. Switching off some of other
circuits reducing this voltage to about 2 V and only switching off all new
circuits brings disconnected voltage to zero as it should be.

Can anyone give me a clue what cane be a source of this weird residual
voltage in disconnected circuit?

Sounds as if you are bleeding back some current on a neutral some
where. Check polarity issues in the problem circuits.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"Alexander Galkin" wrote in message
...
I wired my finished basement myself. In general everything was
fine, I had it inspected before insulating walls and ceiling and
putting drywall. I have been using power in basement for over the
year and nothing was wrong. However, on final inspection the
electrical inspector and I found a very weird problem that I need
now to correct. I have the following wiring diagram in basement:

- dedicated 20 A circuit to basement lighting, total 26 recessed
lights 65 W and 50 W
- dedicated 20 A circuit for basement rooms receptacles
- dedicated 20 A circuit for sump pump
- dedicated 20 A circuit for washer / gas dryer
- dedicated 20 A circuit sewer ejector pump
- dedicated 20 A circuit for basement bath
- dedicated 20 A circuit for garage receptacles
- 50 A basement workshop sub-panel powering 5 dedicated 115 V /
20 A, 2 220 V / 20 A shop receptacles circuits, and 1 15 A shop
lights circuit

When I switched off basement room receptacles circuit breaker
while all others except sub-panel which does not seem to affect
the problem were on we found there is 8 V power in that circuit.
Switching off some of other circuits reducing this voltage to
about 2 V and only switching off all new circuits brings
disconnected voltage to zero as it should be.

Can anyone give me a clue what cane be a source of this weird
residual voltage in disconnected circuit?

You may be using a digital meter that is so sensitive that it is picking
up induced current. Do you have an old analog meter you could try. I
suspect it will read 0

--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
"Alexander Galkin" wrote in message
...
I wired my finished basement myself. In general everything was fine, I had
it inspected before insulating walls and ceiling and putting drywall. I
have been using power in basement for over the year and nothing was wrong.
However, on final inspection the electrical inspector and I found a very
weird problem that I need now to correct. I have the following wiring
diagram in basement:

- dedicated 20 A circuit to basement lighting, total 26 recessed lights 65
W and 50 W
- dedicated 20 A circuit for basement rooms receptacles
- dedicated 20 A circuit for sump pump
- dedicated 20 A circuit for washer / gas dryer
- dedicated 20 A circuit sewer ejector pump
- dedicated 20 A circuit for basement bath
- dedicated 20 A circuit for garage receptacles
- 50 A basement workshop sub-panel powering 5 dedicated 115 V / 20 A, 2
220 V / 20 A shop receptacles circuits, and 1 15 A shop lights circuit

When I switched off basement room receptacles circuit breaker while all
others except sub-panel which does not seem to affect the problem were on
we found there is 8 V power in that circuit. Switching off some of other
circuits reducing this voltage to about 2 V and only switching off all new
circuits brings disconnected voltage to zero as it should be.

Can anyone give me a clue what cane be a source of this weird residual
voltage in disconnected circuit?

Alexander Galkin wrote:

I wired my finished basement myself.
SNIP

When I switched off basement room receptacles circuit breaker while all
others except sub-panel which does not seem to affect the problem were on we
found there is 8 V power in that circuit. Switching off some of other
circuits reducing this voltage to about 2 V and only switching off all new
circuits brings disconnected voltage to zero as it should be.

If you were reading this voltage at the recept with nothing plugged in
on that circuit, then the 8V is perfectly normal reading and is due to
stray coupling between conductors.

Try the reading again with a lamp or other load plugged in.

Jim

"Alexander Galkin" wrote in message
...
I wired my finished basement myself. In general everything was fine, I had
it inspected before insulating walls and ceiling and putting drywall. I
have been using power in basement for over the year and nothing was wrong.
However, on final inspection the electrical inspector and I found a very
weird problem that I need now to correct. I have the following wiring
diagram in basement:

The false indication of voltage caused by a high impedance voltmeter is
pretty well known.
If that is really the problem, it worries me that the inspector didn't pick
up on it.

Charlie

Alexander Galkin wrote:

I wired my finished basement myself. In general everything was fine, I had
it inspected before insulating walls and ceiling and putting drywall. I have
been using power in basement for over the year and nothing was wrong.
However, on final inspection the electrical inspector and I found a very
weird problem that I need now to correct. I have the following wiring
diagram in basement:

- dedicated 20 A circuit to basement lighting, total 26 recessed lights 65 W
and 50 W
- dedicated 20 A circuit for basement rooms receptacles
- dedicated 20 A circuit for sump pump
- dedicated 20 A circuit for washer / gas dryer
- dedicated 20 A circuit sewer ejector pump
- dedicated 20 A circuit for basement bath
- dedicated 20 A circuit for garage receptacles
- 50 A basement workshop sub-panel powering 5 dedicated 115 V / 20 A, 2 220
V / 20 A shop receptacles circuits, and 1 15 A shop lights circuit

When I switched off basement room receptacles circuit breaker while all
others except sub-panel which does not seem to affect the problem were on we
found there is 8 V power in that circuit. Switching off some of other
circuits reducing this voltage to about 2 V and only switching off all new
circuits brings disconnected voltage to zero as it should be.

Can anyone give me a clue what cane be a source of this weird residual
voltage in disconnected circuit?



Are a bunch of your wires running for long lengths in parallel through
the same holes in the studs? It is a long shot, but it might be
inductive coupling. Were the circuits that had the breakers still on
loaded? That is, were lights or other things on such that the circuits
had current flowing in them?

Typically, if Romex-style cable is used the return current in the white
wire should cancel the field from the black wire and thus there
shouldn't be any significant net field to affect adjacent wires,
however, sometimes strange things can happen.


Matt

Speedy Jim wrote:

Alexander Galkin wrote:

I wired my finished basement myself.

SNIP


When I switched off basement room receptacles circuit breaker while
all others except sub-panel which does not seem to affect the problem
were on we found there is 8 V power in that circuit. Switching off
some of other circuits reducing this voltage to about 2 V and only
switching off all new circuits brings disconnected voltage to zero as
it should be.


If you were reading this voltage at the recept with nothing plugged in
on that circuit, then the 8V is perfectly normal reading and is due to
stray coupling between conductors.

8V seems high. I rarely see more than a few hundred mV from inductive
coupling alone.

To the OP: Did you test every outlet with a tester to verify that all
neutrals are connected? I wonder if you have a floating neutral somewhere.


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:

Speedy Jim wrote:

Alexander Galkin wrote:

I wired my finished basement myself.


SNIP


When I switched off basement room receptacles circuit breaker while
all others except sub-panel which does not seem to affect the problem
were on we found there is 8 V power in that circuit. Switching off
some of other circuits reducing this voltage to about 2 V and only
switching off all new circuits brings disconnected voltage to zero as
it should be.



If you were reading this voltage at the recept with nothing plugged in
on that circuit, then the 8V is perfectly normal reading and is due to
stray coupling between conductors.


8V seems high. I rarely see more than a few hundred mV from inductive
coupling alone.

Really? I've often seen over 50 VAC, and still with a load as small as
a 7 watt night light, it went down to zero VAC.

--
Tony

Tony Miklos wrote:

Alexander Galkin wrote:

Actually, the problem was accidentally discovered by the inspector
that had usual bulb light tester that does not have any scale but just
light bulb.


What kind of "usual bulb light tester" are you talking about? Are you
talking about a little thing with three LED's or neon lights something
like this:

http://www.inspectortools.com/gfciouttesbu.html

If so, it's a worthless piece of crap way to test outlets. I can't
believe inspectors are allowed to use them.

If the inspector didn't use something like that, what kind of bulb and
what wattage is the bulb in the tester he did use?

Did you plug in a regular lamp (turned on of course) and at the same
time test to see if there was any voltage on the circuit with your
multi-meter when the circuit was turned off?


I don't see how plugging in a lamp that is switched off should make a
difference. The outlet itself is an open circuit. A lamp switched off
should also be an open circuit. Please explain how the lamp should
affect the open circuit voltage? I'm an EE so don't be afraid to get
technical.


Matt

Tony Miklos wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:

Speedy Jim wrote:

Alexander Galkin wrote:

I wired my finished basement myself.



SNIP


When I switched off basement room receptacles circuit breaker while
all others except sub-panel which does not seem to affect the
problem were on we found there is 8 V power in that circuit.
Switching off some of other circuits reducing this voltage to about
2 V and only switching off all new circuits brings disconnected
voltage to zero as it should be.




If you were reading this voltage at the recept with nothing plugged in
on that circuit, then the 8V is perfectly normal reading and is due to
stray coupling between conductors.



8V seems high. I rarely see more than a few hundred mV from inductive
coupling alone.


Really? I've often seen over 50 VAC, and still with a load as small as
a 7 watt night light, it went down to zero VAC.

Something doesn't jive here. The voltage shouldn't go to zero unless
you short circuit the wires. Any light has resistance and any
resistance that has current flowing through it will have a voltage
across it. The only way the voltage can be zero with current flowing is
if the resistance is also zero (a dead short - with a very short piece
of wire!).

How are you measuring the voltage? Across what terminals?


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:

Tony Miklos wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:

Speedy Jim wrote:

Alexander Galkin wrote:

I wired my finished basement myself.




SNIP


When I switched off basement room receptacles circuit breaker while
all others except sub-panel which does not seem to affect the
problem were on we found there is 8 V power in that circuit.
Switching off some of other circuits reducing this voltage to about
2 V and only switching off all new circuits brings disconnected
voltage to zero as it should be.





If you were reading this voltage at the recept with nothing
plugged in
on that circuit, then the 8V is perfectly normal reading and is
due to
stray coupling between conductors.




8V seems high. I rarely see more than a few hundred mV from
inductive coupling alone.



Really? I've often seen over 50 VAC, and still with a load as small
as a 7 watt night light, it went down to zero VAC.


Something doesn't jive here. The voltage shouldn't go to zero unless
you short circuit the wires. Any light has resistance and any
resistance that has current flowing through it will have a voltage
across it. The only way the voltage can be zero with current flowing is
if the resistance is also zero (a dead short - with a very short piece
of wire!).

Are we mixed up again? I thought we were talking about inductive
coupling, not a transformer. To keep it in layman's terms, "the voltage
ain't got no balls" or *amperage* to back it up. So the slightest load
across the outlet will bring it to zero VAC, (close enough for this
forum anyway). I've even simply touched across the two meter leads by
accident, with no other load on the circuit, and the voltage went from
close to 50VAC to below 1 volt. Remember, this is with the circuit off
of course, and inductive coupling, not a short or an open neutral, and
me as the only load, even with sweaty hands, still probably over 10K ohms.


How are you measuring the voltage? Across what terminals?

In the outlet, from hot to neutral, with the night light in the other
socket of the same outlet.

--
Tony

Tony Miklos wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:

Tony Miklos wrote:

Alexander Galkin wrote:

Actually, the problem was accidentally discovered by the inspector
that had usual bulb light tester that does not have any scale but
just light bulb.




What kind of "usual bulb light tester" are you talking about? Are
you talking about a little thing with three LED's or neon lights
something like this:

http://www.inspectortools.com/gfciouttesbu.html

If so, it's a worthless piece of crap way to test outlets. I can't
believe inspectors are allowed to use them.

If the inspector didn't use something like that, what kind of bulb
and what wattage is the bulb in the tester he did use?

Did you plug in a regular lamp (turned on of course) and at the same
time test to see if there was any voltage on the circuit with your
multi-meter when the circuit was turned off?


I don't see how plugging in a lamp that is switched off should make a
difference. The outlet itself is an open circuit. A lamp switched
off should also be an open circuit. Please explain how the lamp
should affect the open circuit voltage? I'm an EE so don't be afraid
to get technical.


This time you misread my post. I wrote that the lamp would be turned
ON. To quote myself "(turned on of course)" I don't think we need to
get technical!

Oh crap, now I think I see what you meant. My last line "when the
circuit was turned off?" What I had meant, was that the breaker to that
circuit of outlets was turned off, but the lamp circuit on.

--
Tony

Alexander Galkin wrote:
I wired my finished basement myself. In general everything was fine, I had
it inspected before insulating walls and ceiling and putting drywall. I have
been using power in basement for over the year and nothing was wrong.
However, on final inspection the electrical inspector and I found a very
weird problem that I need now to correct. I have the following wiring
diagram in basement:

- dedicated 20 A circuit to basement lighting, total 26 recessed lights 65 W
and 50 W
- dedicated 20 A circuit for basement rooms receptacles
- dedicated 20 A circuit for sump pump
- dedicated 20 A circuit for washer / gas dryer
- dedicated 20 A circuit sewer ejector pump
- dedicated 20 A circuit for basement bath
- dedicated 20 A circuit for garage receptacles
- 50 A basement workshop sub-panel powering 5 dedicated 115 V / 20 A, 2 220
V / 20 A shop receptacles circuits, and 1 15 A shop lights circuit

When I switched off basement room receptacles circuit breaker while all
others except sub-panel which does not seem to affect the problem were on we
found there is 8 V power in that circuit. Switching off some of other
circuits reducing this voltage to about 2 V and only switching off all new
circuits brings disconnected voltage to zero as it should be.

Can anyone give me a clue what cane be a source of this weird residual
voltage in disconnected circuit?


Hi,
Tried using both DVM and analog meter?
Tony

Matt Whiting wrote:

I don't see how plugging in a lamp that is switched off should make a
difference. The outlet itself is an open circuit. A lamp switched
off should also be an open circuit. Please explain how the lamp
should affect the open circuit voltage? I'm an EE so don't be afraid
to get technical.


Betcha the lamp was on and the circuit off.

Osmotic voltage (hope you don't mind technical jargon) does something I call
"drains."

JerryMouse wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:

I don't see how plugging in a lamp that is switched off should make a
difference. The outlet itself is an open circuit. A lamp switched
off should also be an open circuit. Please explain how the lamp
should affect the open circuit voltage? I'm an EE so don't be afraid
to get technical.



Betcha the lamp was on and the circuit off.

Osmotic voltage (hope you don't mind technical jargon) does something I call
"drains."



Ha, ha, ha... Good one.


Matt

"Alexander Galkin" wrote in
message ...
I wired my finished basement myself. In general everything
was fine, I had
it inspected before insulating walls and ceiling and putting
drywall. I have
been using power in basement for over the year and nothing
was wrong.
However, on final inspection the electrical inspector and I
found a very
weird problem that I need now to correct. I have the
following wiring
diagram in basement:

- dedicated 20 A circuit to basement lighting, total 26
recessed lights 65 W
and 50 W
- dedicated 20 A circuit for basement rooms receptacles
- dedicated 20 A circuit for sump pump
- dedicated 20 A circuit for washer / gas dryer
- dedicated 20 A circuit sewer ejector pump
- dedicated 20 A circuit for basement bath
- dedicated 20 A circuit for garage receptacles
- 50 A basement workshop sub-panel powering 5 dedicated 115
V / 20 A, 2 220
V / 20 A shop receptacles circuits, and 1 15 A shop lights
circuit

When I switched off basement room receptacles circuit
breaker while all
others except sub-panel which does not seem to affect the
problem were on we
found there is 8 V power in that circuit. Switching off some
of other
circuits reducing this voltage to about 2 V and only
switching off all new
circuits brings disconnected voltage to zero as it should
be.



Can anyone give me a clue what cane be a source of this
weird residual
voltage in disconnected circuit?

voltage is being induced in the disconnected circuit due
to its close proximity with live current carrying wires.. the
electro magnetic effect created by an conductor.

I am currently revamping a 20 year old control system, no
big deal, a few pumps, a boiler and a cooling tower... very
nice control job these guys put in... 24vdc, the wires are
all bundled nicely.. and the job as worked more or less fine
for 20 years with a few bugs no one has figured out.

in checking out I noticed all kinds of 2 to 9 volt reads in
open circuits. Fortunately there were no electronics or
logic controllers in this old system so the stray voltages
were not sending bogus signals to the electronics... but at
9vdc, and sometimes AC.. and relays operating at 24vdc... I
think they got a little sticky at times and is the source of
the unfathomable bugs.


However moi here is adding a PLC to the mix (dinky solid state
computer that does simple logic functions, 256 various
combinations)... and If I am not careful the wiring I install
will be next to higher voltage conductors that will induce
current in my PLC feed wiring.... and the PLC will go nutz...
and produce all sorts of bogus output.

a bad thang.


Fortunately I am putting this low voltage wiring in a separate
cabinet and not bundling the wire as the other stuff is
bundled so I wont get stray signals.

I almost decided to run some 110 vac transformer power wire in
the same conduit as the 24 vac control and alarm wiring some
of which would go directly to dialers.. no relay in between.
that could have been a mess because both the dialers and the
PLC are AC voltage.. *any& AC voltage... so say 15vac or 120
vac signal is acceptable as an input to the plc. That would
have been messy. The instructions with these particular
devices even say you can use DC inputs over a wide range to
trigger the PLC switching actions even though they are rated
for AC only and sell a strictly DC unit if you want one.

So what does that tell a person? That all those trace stray
voltages will create havoc in yer electronic gismo's.


Sigh.




Getting back to your case. Dont worry about it...while there
is voltage in the disconnected circuit, its induced and not
capable of pushing much amperage, so its harmless in a home
wiring sort of scenario/... just a faint distortion to a
circuit under load.




Phil Scott

Phil Scott posted for all of us....

I almost decided to run some 110 vac transformer power wire in
the same conduit as the 24 vac control and alarm wiring some


Which would be a code violation.
--
Tekkie

JerryMouse wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote:

I don't see how plugging in a lamp that is switched off should make a
difference. The outlet itself is an open circuit. A lamp switched
off should also be an open circuit. Please explain how the lamp
should affect the open circuit voltage? I'm an EE so don't be afraid
to get technical.



Betcha the lamp was on and the circuit off.

Yes, I guess I'll have to learn English! ;-)

--
Tony

Following advise I plug-in the load (TV) into one of receptacles. Residual
voltage dropped to zero immediately in switched off circuit even when
measured by digital multimeter. To verify this I unplugged the TV and
voltage jumped to previous ~8-9V. Now I am convinced it is inductive voltage
induced by other hot circuit wires running close to the disconnected one. I
am calling the electrical inspector to re-inspection.

"Alexander Galkin" wrote in message
...
I wired my finished basement myself. In general everything was fine, I had
it inspected before insulating walls and ceiling and putting drywall. I
have been using power in basement for over the year and nothing was wrong.
However, on final inspection the electrical inspector and I found a very
weird problem that I need now to correct. I have the following wiring
diagram in basement:

- dedicated 20 A circuit to basement lighting, total 26 recessed lights 65
W and 50 W
- dedicated 20 A circuit for basement rooms receptacles
- dedicated 20 A circuit for sump pump
- dedicated 20 A circuit for washer / gas dryer
- dedicated 20 A circuit sewer ejector pump
- dedicated 20 A circuit for basement bath
- dedicated 20 A circuit for garage receptacles
- 50 A basement workshop sub-panel powering 5 dedicated 115 V / 20 A, 2
220 V / 20 A shop receptacles circuits, and 1 15 A shop lights circuit

When I switched off basement room receptacles circuit breaker while all
others except sub-panel which does not seem to affect the problem were on
we found there is 8 V power in that circuit. Switching off some of other
circuits reducing this voltage to about 2 V and only switching off all new
circuits brings disconnected voltage to zero as it should be.

Can anyone give me a clue what cane be a source of this weird residual
voltage in disconnected circuit?