OK, this is off topic for alt.home.repair but I can't resist putting it
in my crosspost, there's so many canny folks who check out that NG, and
I know almost all of them drive.

I was chatting with my auto mechanic the other day and I asked him if he
thought all gas was pretty much the same these days - an idea I'd been
encountering. He didn't agree at all.

Now I guess I should say that I have no connections with the petroleum
industry of any kind, none in the auto industry either, or any other
industry associated in any way with gasoline.

He said his truck was running sluggishly and he put in a tank of 76 high
octane and could hardly believe the difference it made. Suddenly the
truck ran smoothly. He said he has a lot of evidence that he and other
people are getting very significantly better mileage since switching to
76. I guess that's 76 Union, unless they've changed their name.

I asked him if he had any experience with their regular gas, and he
couldn't really say, it seemed.

I thought I'd throw this out there and see what other people think.

Myself, I've been using the cheapest regular I can find, usually from
Costco, or a station I know where they sell pretty cheap if you give
them cash. I drive less than 2000/year with my two cars, so it isn't a
giant deal for me, but more mileage and smoother performance would be
reason enough for me to switch to a recommended brand.

Dan

"Dan_Musicant" wrote in message
...

I was chatting with my auto mechanic the other day and I asked him if he
thought all gas was pretty much the same these days - an idea I'd been
encountering. He didn't agree at all.

Did he tell you about
1. Octane levels
2. Leaded vs. lead-free gasoline
3. Additives e.g. MMT
4. Supplementary mixed fuels e.g. alcohol ?
Most pumps are labeled for what they contain in all
four respects.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Dan_Musicant wrote:
OK, this is off topic for alt.home.repair but I can't resist putting
it in my crosspost, there's so many canny folks who check out that
NG, and I know almost all of them drive.

I was chatting with my auto mechanic the other day and I asked him if
he thought all gas was pretty much the same these days - an idea I'd
been encountering. He didn't agree at all.


Gasoline can vary in many ways. Octane is just one. Additives, age of
the gas, cleanliness formula (winter vs. summer) etc. all make differences.
Brands are not very different in NA as regulations and market forces tend to
keep them the same.

My recommendation is simple. Only buy from stations that do a lot of
business and buy the octane specified for your engine by the manufacturer or
if the engine is old and starting to show signs that it needs higher go a
little higher. (higher octane does not mean more power, better gas or
better additives)

--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 09:09:34 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
wrote:

:"Dan_Musicant" wrote in message
.. .
:
: I was chatting with my auto mechanic the other day and I asked him if he
: thought all gas was pretty much the same these days - an idea I'd been
: encountering. He didn't agree at all.
:
id he tell you about
:1. Octane levels
:2. Leaded vs. lead-free gasoline
:3. Additives e.g. MMT
:4. Supplementary mixed fuels e.g. alcohol ?
:Most pumps are labeled for what they contain in all
:four respects.

No, we didn't talk about all that. I'm in California and I don't think
they're selling leaded gasoline. We do have additives and the CA
standards are different from most of the USA, making the gas a fair
amount more expensive, probably in the neighborhood of 10%. Gasohol is
starting to take off, at least in some places I guess. Can most cars
burn gasohol? I should take the time to read the pumps, like you say.


I want to die calm and peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not
kicking and screaming like the passengers of his car.

"Dan_Musicant" wrote in message

I was chatting with my auto mechanic the other day and I asked him if he
thought all gas was pretty much the same these days - an idea I'd been
encountering. He didn't agree at all.


He said his truck was running sluggishly and he put in a tank of 76 high
octane and could hardly believe the difference it made. Suddenly the
truck ran smoothly. He said he has a lot of evidence that he and other
people are getting very significantly better mileage since switching to
76. I guess that's 76 Union, unless they've changed their name.

I asked him if he had any experience with their regular gas, and he
couldn't really say, it seemed.

Spend a day at the docks and the gas storage places. You'll see all sorts
of truck getting the same gas for different brand stations.

It may be possible that the truck responded to a different gas, but there
may be other reasons. Why was it sluggish? Is there some mechanical reason
that it was not running properly?
Unless something was different than normal (he may have changed computers
for all I know) there is no difference in 99% of the cars designed for 87
octane.

I drive about 30,000 miles a year, sometimes as much as 50,000. I've tried
different brands, different octanes, and if the car is running properly I've
not see any difference. This is in a half dozen cars I've driven over the
past 15 or 20 years.

I go for cheap and have no problems. My older car has 139,000 miles (the
plugs were changed at 75,000) and it starts, runs, and gets the same gas
mileage as the day it was new. My new car has 90,000 miles, original plugs,
same deal.

Try the 76 and report back. Chances are thee will be no difference except a
few $ out of your wallet.

On 1/1/2005 10:15 AM US(ET), Dan_Musicant took fingers to keys, and
typed the following:

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 09:09:34 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
wrote:

:"Dan_Musicant" wrote in message
. ..
:
: I was chatting with my auto mechanic the other day and I asked him if he
: thought all gas was pretty much the same these days - an idea I'd been
: encountering. He didn't agree at all.
:
id he tell you about
:1. Octane levels
:2. Leaded vs. lead-free gasoline
:3. Additives e.g. MMT
:4. Supplementary mixed fuels e.g. alcohol ?
:Most pumps are labeled for what they contain in all
:four respects.

No, we didn't talk about all that. I'm in California and I don't think
they're selling leaded gasoline. We do have additives and the CA
standards are different from most of the USA, making the gas a fair
amount more expensive, probably in the neighborhood of 10%. Gasohol is
starting to take off, at least in some places I guess. Can most cars
burn gasohol? I should take the time to read the pumps, like you say.



In my area of NY, the Getty gas stations are the cheapest. They could be
up to $0.10 (10 cents) per gallon cheaper than other stations in the
same general area. If you look on the Getty pumps, you will see a
sticker saying that the gas contains 10% Ethanol, rather than the ground
polluting, mpg lowering, and more expensive MBTE, which other gas
stations have added to their winter gas. I have been using the Getty
gas, and don't find any difference in engine performance.


--
Bill

waste of money using premium gas when your motor will run on
regular..The really old cars run like **** on the 10% ethanol/gasoline
fuel

"willshak" wrote in message
If you look on the Getty pumps, you will see a sticker saying that the
gas contains 10% Ethanol, rather than the ground polluting, mpg lowering,
and more expensive MBTE, which other gas stations have added to their
winter gas.

I think most stations are using ethanol now. MBTE is being banned in many
areas.

Is your friend buying his gas accross the border in Nevada?
This is a common practice for some folks who live near the border and
live in Cali..................It's cheaper and it's better gas too,
with less additive crap in it. I read recently that California is
fairly PO'd about Truckers doing that before they drive into Theor
state to avoid the cost, so They are going to ( may have already done
so) make it where there is a cost per mile to operate vehicles in
California..........although I don't think they have yet.



Remove "YOURPANTIES" to reply

MUADIB®

http://www.angelfire.com/retro/sster...IN%20PAGE.html

one small step for man,.....
One giant leap for attorneys.

"MUADIB®" wrote in message
. I read recently that California is
fairly PO'd about Truckers doing that before they drive into Theor
state to avoid the cost, so They are going to ( may have already done
so) make it where there is a cost per mile to operate vehicles in
California..........although I don't think they have yet.

Don't know about CA or other western states, but here in the east, truckers
must have fuel use permits for each state. They report the miles driven and
pay the fuel tax accordingly. You get a credit for fuel purchased in that
state.

Dan_Musicant wrote:

Myself, I've been using the cheapest regular I can find, usually from
Costco, or a station I know where they sell pretty cheap if you give
them cash. I drive less than 2000/year with my two cars, so it isn't a
giant deal for me, but more mileage and smoother performance would be
reason enough for me to switch to a recommended brand.

to me, there are 3 tiers of gas...

the full price, like chevron, 76, etc.
the discounters, like costco, sams, vons
the unknown mom n pop places.

the discounters have a reputation to uphold, so their stations are
generally clean, and they still have a good price. i just dont trust the
unknowns. yes, they all get gas from the same sources. but who knows
when the mom n pop places replace their gas pump fuel filters, etc.

Joe Bobst wrote:
Addendum to Mr. Meehan's fuel purchasing rules:

1) Never buy gas first thing in the morning. Let the early birds have
the best chance of getting the grunge from the bottom of the tank.
Pickup pipes in the tanks don't draw from the top, you know.

While I agree with #2 and #3, both are for real. I would not worry
about #1. First, as you may already know, the pickups are not at the very
bottom, the are a few inches above it. The fuel and grunge below that (and
most tanks do have grunge and water below that level) is called bottoms.
Good dealers have the the tanks pumped out from time to time to keep the
level low so it does not get in the pickups.

Morning is the best time for two reasons. First all the grunge has had
all night to settle to the bottom, not yet steered up by pumping gas, and
the gas is a little cooler and you get a little more for your money. Nether
is really important in my book

BTW I would recommend passing on any station that is getting or just got
a fuel delivery. That is when the grunge gets steered up for real.
2) Never fuel up at a station at the bottom of a hill, especially in
rainy or snowy weather. Remember water flows downhill, and
underground tank inlets aren't totally trustworthy.
3) The further from an interstate highway, the lower the price. And
sometime the lower the quality. Shop warily when traveling. HTH

Joe

--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 13:54:29 GMT, Dan_Musicant
wrote:

OK, this is off topic for alt.home.repair but I can't resist putting it
in my crosspost, there's so many canny folks who check out that NG, and
I know almost all of them drive.

I was chatting with my auto mechanic the other day and I asked him if he
thought all gas was pretty much the same these days - an idea I'd been
encountering. He didn't agree at all.

Now I guess I should say that I have no connections with the petroleum
industry of any kind, none in the auto industry either, or any other
industry associated in any way with gasoline.

He said his truck was running sluggishly and he put in a tank of 76 high
octane and could hardly believe the difference it made. Suddenly the
truck ran smoothly. He said he has a lot of evidence that he and other
people are getting very significantly better mileage since switching to
76. I guess that's 76 Union, unless they've changed their name.

I asked him if he had any experience with their regular gas, and he
couldn't really say, it seemed.

I thought I'd throw this out there and see what other people think.

Myself, I've been using the cheapest regular I can find, usually from
Costco, or a station I know where they sell pretty cheap if you give
them cash. I drive less than 2000/year with my two cars, so it isn't a
giant deal for me, but more mileage and smoother performance would be
reason enough for me to switch to a recommended brand.

Dan


I found that premium BP, Amoco or Shell makes my car run smooth and
efficiently. If I buy Racetrack or Direct premium gas, my car tends
to run rough and stalls. My car is a 1983 model and it is very
sensitive. Some gas stations will have higher water content which
will cause rough idling, especially during the winter months. I've
heard truckers say that 76 gas is all they buy.

"Phisherman" wrote in message
I've
heard truckers say that 76 gas is all they buy.

Real truckers buy diesel

Joseph Meehan wrote:

Morning is the best time... the gas is a little cooler and you get
a little more for your money.

You might be surprised to discover how little :-)

How much would you save if a 10K gallon tank lives in 55 F soil and the
air temp above it drops from 34 F in the afternoon to 26 F in the morning?

Nick

--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
wrote in message
...
Joseph Meehan wrote:

Morning is the best time... the gas is a little cooler and you get
a little more for your money.

You might be surprised to discover how little :-)

No I would not. I would hate to try and measure it. :-)


How much would you save if a 10K gallon tank lives in 55 F soil and the
air temp above it drops from 34 F in the afternoon to 26 F in the morning?

You are forgetting that during the day they may have received a shipment
and that would be at a higher temp.

This is of course 99.98% theory as there is not significant difference.


Nick

wrote in message
...
Joseph Meehan wrote:

Morning is the best time... the gas is a little cooler and you get
a little more for your money.

You might be surprised to discover how little :-)

How much would you save if a 10K gallon tank lives in 55 F soil and the
air temp above it drops from 34 F in the afternoon to 26 F in the morning?

Nick


Now you tell me. I've been getting up at 5 AM for the past 40 years just to
top of my gas tank.

Dan_Musicant wrote:

OK, this is off topic for alt.home.repair but I can't resist putting it
in my crosspost, there's so many canny folks who check out that NG, and
I know almost all of them drive.

I was chatting with my auto mechanic the other day and I asked him if he
thought all gas was pretty much the same these days - an idea I'd been
encountering. He didn't agree at all.

Now I guess I should say that I have no connections with the petroleum
industry of any kind, none in the auto industry either, or any other
industry associated in any way with gasoline.

He said his truck was running sluggishly and he put in a tank of 76 high
octane and could hardly believe the difference it made. Suddenly the
truck ran smoothly. He said he has a lot of evidence that he and other
people are getting very significantly better mileage since switching to
76. I guess that's 76 Union, unless they've changed their name.

In Australia it seems we have different octane ratings to you. Ordinary unleaded gas (we call it petrol) is 91
octane. Premium is 95 or 96. There are some super premiums at 98 octane.

I have an 89 Ford Telstar (which is a rebadged Mazda 626, made by Mazda in Japan). It has about 100k miles on
it.

My mechanic recommended Shell Premium (96 Octane) as he said while it costs more (approx 10%), the
decreased fuel consumption will often make up the difference, plus the engine will run cooler.

I thought it was hogwash until one day when we were on a long trip in summer (when it was 95-100 degrees F air
temperature), the engine was getting very hot (almost at the top of the gauge) so the next lot of fuel we put in was
preimum. The engine immediately went back to normal temperature. Plus we have found the lower fuel
consumption more than makes up for the extra cost, so we have stuck with premium.

91 octane fuel is below the common octane levels in many other countries, but usually high-selling imported cars
sold here are modified to run ok on 91. However some cars (sporty cars e.g. Mazda RX8, or low selling models
like VW Polo) are not modified so they require 95 octane.

http://www.caltex.com.au/products_oil_detail.asp?id=15
http://www.bp.com.au/catalogue/default.asp
Shell http://tinyurl.com/5hanq

Here we also get coupons for Caltex and Shell from the two major supermarkets. Spend $30 AUD or more and
gets 4c AUD / litre off the next petrol purchase - that's about 4% off.

Petrol here is about $1.00 AUD / litre - that's about $2.95 USD per US gallon. Premium is about 10% dearer.

On 1 Jan 2005 08:16:06 -0800, wrote:

waste of money using premium gas when your motor will run on
regular..The really old cars run like **** on the 10% ethanol/gasoline
fuel

My 1983 Honda Civic manual says "use regular gas," but when I do, my
car runs rough, stalls, and gets low fuel-miles. Auto mechanics say
that if your car runs better with premium, use it. I've even heard
recommendations of occasionally using premium, perhaps every 4th fill
up, which helps clear out injectors, plugs, and exhaust.

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 21:24:49 GMT, Phisherman wrote:

:On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 13:54:29 GMT, Dan_Musicant
:wrote:
:
:OK, this is off topic for alt.home.repair but I can't resist putting it
:in my crosspost, there's so many canny folks who check out that NG, and
:I know almost all of them drive.
:
:I was chatting with my auto mechanic the other day and I asked him if he
:thought all gas was pretty much the same these days - an idea I'd been
:encountering. He didn't agree at all.
:
:Now I guess I should say that I have no connections with the petroleum
:industry of any kind, none in the auto industry either, or any other
:industry associated in any way with gasoline.
:
:He said his truck was running sluggishly and he put in a tank of 76 high
:octane and could hardly believe the difference it made. Suddenly the
:truck ran smoothly. He said he has a lot of evidence that he and other
:people are getting very significantly better mileage since switching to
:76. I guess that's 76 Union, unless they've changed their name.
:
:I asked him if he had any experience with their regular gas, and he
:couldn't really say, it seemed.
:
:I thought I'd throw this out there and see what other people think.
:
:Myself, I've been using the cheapest regular I can find, usually from
:Costco, or a station I know where they sell pretty cheap if you give
:them cash. I drive less than 2000/year with my two cars, so it isn't a
:giant deal for me, but more mileage and smoother performance would be
:reason enough for me to switch to a recommended brand.
:
:Dan
:
:
:I found that premium BP, Amoco or Shell makes my car run smooth and
:efficiently. If I buy Racetrack or Direct premium gas, my car tends
:to run rough and stalls. My car is a 1983 model and it is very
:sensitive. Some gas stations will have higher water content which
:will cause rough idling, especially during the winter months. I've
:heard truckers say that 76 gas is all they buy.

One of my cars is an '83, too. It doesn't run as smoothly as it used to.
Thing is, I rarely use that car. It's a Chrysler Town and Country
mini-wagon, and I only use it for Home Depot runs for big sheets of
plywood and stuff like that. Since I don't do that too frequently, most
of the time I use it is to give it a spin just to keep it running OK. My
mechanic said I should think about keeping the gas tank topped up to
minimize the effect of water condensing from the air in the tank, so I
try to keep it pretty near full. I guess I'll try the 76 in that car and
see if it runs better. My other car's running better. It's my "every
day" car, although I often go a couple of weeks or more without using
it!

Dan

76, huh?

Around here, the Octane ratings are 87, 98, 91, and sometimes 93...


"Dan_Musicant" wrote in message
...
OK, this is off topic for alt.home.repair but I can't resist putting it
in my crosspost, there's so many canny folks who check out that NG, and
I know almost all of them drive.

I was chatting with my auto mechanic the other day and I asked him if he
thought all gas was pretty much the same these days - an idea I'd been
encountering. He didn't agree at all.

Now I guess I should say that I have no connections with the petroleum
industry of any kind, none in the auto industry either, or any other
industry associated in any way with gasoline.

He said his truck was running sluggishly and he put in a tank of 76 high
octane and could hardly believe the difference it made. Suddenly the
truck ran smoothly. He said he has a lot of evidence that he and other
people are getting very significantly better mileage since switching to
76. I guess that's 76 Union, unless they've changed their name.

I asked him if he had any experience with their regular gas, and he
couldn't really say, it seemed.

I thought I'd throw this out there and see what other people think.

Myself, I've been using the cheapest regular I can find, usually from
Costco, or a station I know where they sell pretty cheap if you give
them cash. I drive less than 2000/year with my two cars, so it isn't a
giant deal for me, but more mileage and smoother performance would be
reason enough for me to switch to a recommended brand.

Dan

On 1/2/2005 10:40 AM US(ET), HeatMan took fingers to keys, and typed the
following:

76, huh?

Around here, the Octane ratings are 87, 98, 91, and sometimes 93...


76 is not the octane number, it is the brand of gas. http://www.76.com/


"Dan_Musicant" wrote in message
.. .


OK, this is off topic for alt.home.repair but I can't resist putting it
in my crosspost, there's so many canny folks who check out that NG, and
I know almost all of them drive.

I was chatting with my auto mechanic the other day and I asked him if he
thought all gas was pretty much the same these days - an idea I'd been
encountering. He didn't agree at all.

Now I guess I should say that I have no connections with the petroleum
industry of any kind, none in the auto industry either, or any other
industry associated in any way with gasoline.

He said his truck was running sluggishly and he put in a tank of 76 high
octane and could hardly believe the difference it made. Suddenly the
truck ran smoothly. He said he has a lot of evidence that he and other
people are getting very significantly better mileage since switching to
76. I guess that's 76 Union, unless they've changed their name.

I asked him if he had any experience with their regular gas, and he
couldn't really say, it seemed.

I thought I'd throw this out there and see what other people think.

Myself, I've been using the cheapest regular I can find, usually from
Costco, or a station I know where they sell pretty cheap if you give
them cash. I drive less than 2000/year with my two cars, so it isn't a
giant deal for me, but more mileage and smoother performance would be
reason enough for me to switch to a recommended brand.

Dan








--
Bill

As a poster above this message said: "Read the pump". Most pumps these days
are temperature compensated. That cooler, denser gasoline that you try to
get on a cool morning is adjusted at the pump to give you less. If it is hot
the pump will compensate and give you a little more. Basically you are
getting the same amount no matter what the temperature, as the temperature
compensation adjusts the measurements to supposable supply the same amount
of energy. You can't win in this game.


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. ..

wrote in message
...
Joseph Meehan wrote:

Morning is the best time... the gas is a little cooler and you get
a little more for your money.

You might be surprised to discover how little :-)

How much would you save if a 10K gallon tank lives in 55 F soil and the
air temp above it drops from 34 F in the afternoon to 26 F in the
morning?

Nick


Now you tell me. I've been getting up at 5 AM for the past 40 years just
to
top of my gas tank.

"Dan_Musicant" wrote in message
...
OK, this is off topic for alt.home.repair but I can't resist putting it
in my crosspost, there's so many canny folks who check out that NG, and
I know almost all of them drive.

I was chatting with my auto mechanic the other day and I asked him if he
thought all gas was pretty much the same these days - an idea I'd been
encountering. He didn't agree at all.

Now I guess I should say that I have no connections with the petroleum
industry of any kind, none in the auto industry either, or any other
industry associated in any way with gasoline.

He said his truck was running sluggishly and he put in a tank of 76 high
octane and could hardly believe the difference it made. Suddenly the
truck ran smoothly. He said he has a lot of evidence that he and other
people are getting very significantly better mileage since switching to
76. I guess that's 76 Union, unless they've changed their name.

I asked him if he had any experience with their regular gas, and he
couldn't really say, it seemed.

I thought I'd throw this out there and see what other people think.

Myself, I've been using the cheapest regular I can find, usually from
Costco, or a station I know where they sell pretty cheap if you give
them cash. I drive less than 2000/year with my two cars, so it isn't a
giant deal for me, but more mileage and smoother performance would be
reason enough for me to switch to a recommended brand.

Dan

This is Turtle.

I have been down this road on gas for my company trucks for years and came up
with two things to do and you will do fine with fuel.

1) look in the book that come with the auto and get the Octane Rated gas your
suppose to be burning. Then when going to gas up Get that octane rated fuel only
for your auto is designed to burn that octane fuel. The ratings will be from 86
to 93 octane ratings. Us the one the auto maker say for your computor on the
auto is set to burn that octane fuel. I have my truck that are to be burninmg 87
octane fuel. I can put 93 octane fuel and it seems I get worst mileage than with
87 octane fuel. Now the newer model have a sencer to adjust the fuel flow rate
to the engine to take care of 93 in a 87 octane car but it will take a 1/2 tank
or so for your computor to get use to the higher octane fuel. Pick out the
octane rating your auto should be using from the book in the auto and use it.

2) Alway buy your gas at stations that move a lot of fuel to not get old gas
sitting in the tanks for too long and start to degrade. Gas will be very poor if
left in a tank for 18 months and need rerefining of it.

Tell your Mechanic to go read his book for his auto on what octane fuel he
should be burning and he will solve his problem with fuel.

Now 20+ years ago Amoco had White Gas and others has regular leaded gas. This
white gas was better but when regulation and unleaded gas come along. The white
gas was history. Your Mechanic has these left over thoughts of this era and I
still have them but they are just thoughts now a days.

When all else fails Read the instructions.

TURTLE

"Dan_Musicant" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 09:09:34 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
wrote:

:"Dan_Musicant" wrote in message
.. .
:
: I was chatting with my auto mechanic the other day and I asked him if he
: thought all gas was pretty much the same these days - an idea I'd been
: encountering. He didn't agree at all.
:
id he tell you about
:1. Octane levels
:2. Leaded vs. lead-free gasoline
:3. Additives e.g. MMT
:4. Supplementary mixed fuels e.g. alcohol ?
:Most pumps are labeled for what they contain in all
:four respects.

No, we didn't talk about all that. I'm in California and I don't think
they're selling leaded gasoline. We do have additives and the CA
standards are different from most of the USA, making the gas a fair
amount more expensive, probably in the neighborhood of 10%. Gasohol is
starting to take off, at least in some places I guess. Can most cars
burn gasohol? I should take the time to read the pumps, like you say.


I want to die calm and peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not
kicking and screaming like the passengers of his car.

This is Turtle Again.

*** Octane Burns to make the car run good.
*** Additive clean and fix problems.
*** Yes Gasohol is different but it has a octane rating as the same as not.
Alcohol is a very good fuel to burn for if you will check up here on the fuel
the cars in the Indy 500 are using. You will find out they use pure Alcohol
burning of the fuel. They don't use gas because you can get more power out of
Alcohol fuel than unleaded gas. All the high speed or drag racer prefer Pure
Alcohol over unleaded gas. So if it is me, Give me 90% Alcohol and 10% gas and
get more power and mileage. Now check your book in the auto to see about burning
Alcohol fuel and it will tell you about it.

When all else fails , Read the instructions.

TURTLE

"TURTLE" wrote in message
...

"Dan_Musicant" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 09:09:34 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
wrote:

:"Dan_Musicant" wrote in message
.. .
:
: I was chatting with my auto mechanic the other day and I asked him if he
: thought all gas was pretty much the same these days - an idea I'd been
: encountering. He didn't agree at all.
:
id he tell you about
:1. Octane levels
:2. Leaded vs. lead-free gasoline
:3. Additives e.g. MMT
:4. Supplementary mixed fuels e.g. alcohol ?
:Most pumps are labeled for what they contain in all
:four respects.

No, we didn't talk about all that. I'm in California and I don't think
they're selling leaded gasoline. We do have additives and the CA
standards are different from most of the USA, making the gas a fair
amount more expensive, probably in the neighborhood of 10%. Gasohol is
starting to take off, at least in some places I guess. Can most cars
burn gasohol? I should take the time to read the pumps, like you say.


I want to die calm and peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not
kicking and screaming like the passengers of his car.

This is Turtle Again.

Rather pathetic, really.

*** Octane Burns to make the car run good.

Rather pathetic, really.

*** Additive clean and fix problems.

Rather pathetic, really.

*** Yes Gasohol is different but it has a octane rating as the same as not.

Rather pathetic, really.

Alcohol is a very good fuel to burn for if you will check up here on the fuel
the cars in the Indy 500 are using. You will find out they use pure Alcohol
burning of the fuel.

Pity they are very different engines, and its different alcohol too.

They don't use gas because you can get more power out of Alcohol fuel than
unleaded gas.

Rather pathetic, really.

All the high speed or drag racer prefer Pure Alcohol over unleaded gas. So if
it is me, Give me 90% Alcohol and 10% gas and get more power and mileage.

Rather pathetic, really.

Pity about the price.

Now check your book in the auto to see about burning Alcohol fuel and it will
tell you about it.

Rather pathetic, really.

When all else fails , Read the instructions.

Rather pathetic, really.

TURTLE

Rather pathetic, really.

In article , TURTLE wrote:
SNIP

This is Turtle Again.

*** Octane Burns to make the car run good.
*** Additive clean and fix problems.
*** Yes Gasohol is different but it has a octane rating as the same as not.
Alcohol is a very good fuel to burn for if you will check up here on the fuel
the cars in the Indy 500 are using. You will find out they use pure Alcohol
burning of the fuel. They don't use gas because you can get more power out of
Alcohol fuel than unleaded gas. All the high speed or drag racer prefer Pure
Alcohol over unleaded gas. So if it is me, Give me 90% Alcohol and 10% gas and
get more power and mileage.

Actually, alcohol has such a high octane rating that race car engines
designed to burn it have a higher compression ratio.
Without the higher compression ratio, an engine would actually get less
energy from a gallon of alcohol than from a gallon of gasoline. Fuel
mileage would actually be a little worse.

Cars often get very slightly less mileage with "gasohol" and other
"oxygenated fuel" because these fuels have slightly less chemical energy
per gallon.

Some high octane gasolines have alcohol to boost the octane and as a
result you may get very slightly less fuel economy and power.

----------------------------------------------------------

As for higher octane than the instructions call for being necessary when
the engine has a lot of miles on it: This is *sometimes* true. The usual
cause is bad spark plugs (replace) or carbon deposits in the engine making
detonation occur more easily. Probably less likely if you properly
maintain your engine and air filter. But only use higher octane to the
extent necessary to eliminate knocking.

----------------------------------------------------------

- Don Klipstein )

In article , TURTLE wrote:
SNIP

This is Turtle Again.

*** Octane Burns to make the car run good.
*** Additive clean and fix problems.
*** Yes Gasohol is different but it has a octane rating as the same as not.
Alcohol is a very good fuel to burn for if you will check up here on the fuel
the cars in the Indy 500 are using. You will find out they use pure Alcohol
burning of the fuel. They don't use gas because you can get more power out of
Alcohol fuel than unleaded gas. All the high speed or drag racer prefer Pure
Alcohol over unleaded gas. So if it is me, Give me 90% Alcohol and 10% gas and
get more power and mileage.

Actually, alcohol has such a high octane rating that race car engines
designed to burn it have a higher compression ratio. (Indy cars burn
methanol rather than ethanol, but that does not change any other points.)
Without the higher compression ratio, an engine would actually get less
energy from a gallon of alcohol than from a gallon of gasoline. Fuel
mileage would actually be a little worse.

Cars often get very slightly less mileage with "gasohol" and other
"oxygenated fuel" because these fuels have slightly less chemical energy
per gallon.

Some high octane gasolines have (or at least had several years ago)
alcohol to boost the octane and as a result sometimes get/got very
slightly less fuel economy and power.

----------------------------------------------------------

As for higher octane than the instructions call for being necessary when
the engine has a lot of miles on it: This is *sometimes* true. The usual
cause is bad spark plugs (replace) or carbon deposits in the engine making
detonation occur more easily. Probably less likely if you properly
maintain your engine and air filter. But only use higher octane to the
extent necessary to eliminate knocking.

----------------------------------------------------------

- Don Klipstein )

In article ,
wrote:
Joseph Meehan wrote:

Morning is the best time... the gas is a little cooler and you get
a little more for your money.

You might be surprised to discover how little :-)

How much would you save if a 10K gallon tank lives in 55 F soil and the
air temp above it drops from 34 F in the afternoon to 26 F in the morning?

Actually I remember some little scandal several years ago, when gasoline
that used to be 60 degrees F when delivered was 76 degrees F when
delivered. I know it was something like this, although I may not remember
exactly the temperature figures. I believe I saw it in the Philadelphia
Inquirer.

I now look at "Cubical Expansion of Liquids", CRC Handbook, page 2284 in
the 43rd edition. Pentane is said there to be .001608, and petroleum
(density .8467) according to that source gets .000955. I suspect
gasoline, although it varies, is probably usually not far from at least
one of these - although I suspect lower than the figure for pentane. This
is volumetric coefficient per degree C of thermal expansion.
Looks like 16 degrees F could make a difference of not far from 1 percent.

The way the newspaper story made it out, it appeared to be a scam by the
refinery to deliver less gasoline to gas stations per gallon that they
were paying for.

Now, as for temperature variations in an underground tank: I suspect
that's substantially less than the variation in air temperature throughout
the day. But I don't have any figures for that one. (On an average day
in Philadelphia, the early morning low temperature is 9-11 degrees C
cooler than the afternoon high temperature, depending on the time of year.)

- Don Klipstein )

"Don Klipstein" wrote in message
The way the newspaper story made it out, it appeared to be a scam by the
refinery to deliver less gasoline to gas stations per gallon that they
were paying for.


Sounds more like a reporter with too much time. Did he suggest they deliver
gas only in the winter and not the summer?

ONLY BUY TOPTIER GAS!

http://www.toptiergas.com/




"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 13:54:29 GMT, Dan_Musicant
wrote:

OK, this is off topic for alt.home.repair but I can't resist putting it
in my crosspost, there's so many canny folks who check out that NG, and
I know almost all of them drive.

I was chatting with my auto mechanic the other day and I asked him if he
thought all gas was pretty much the same these days - an idea I'd been
encountering. He didn't agree at all.

Now I guess I should say that I have no connections with the petroleum
industry of any kind, none in the auto industry either, or any other
industry associated in any way with gasoline.

He said his truck was running sluggishly and he put in a tank of 76 high
octane and could hardly believe the difference it made. Suddenly the
truck ran smoothly. He said he has a lot of evidence that he and other
people are getting very significantly better mileage since switching to
76. I guess that's 76 Union, unless they've changed their name.

I asked him if he had any experience with their regular gas, and he
couldn't really say, it seemed.

I thought I'd throw this out there and see what other people think.

Myself, I've been using the cheapest regular I can find, usually from
Costco, or a station I know where they sell pretty cheap if you give
them cash. I drive less than 2000/year with my two cars, so it isn't a
giant deal for me, but more mileage and smoother performance would be
reason enough for me to switch to a recommended brand.

Dan


I found that premium BP, Amoco or Shell makes my car run smooth and
efficiently. If I buy Racetrack or Direct premium gas, my car tends
to run rough and stalls. My car is a 1983 model and it is very
sensitive. Some gas stations will have higher water content which
will cause rough idling, especially during the winter months. I've
heard truckers say that 76 gas is all they buy.

Use only top tier gas: http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html


"Dan_Musicant" wrote in message
...
OK, this is off topic for alt.home.repair but I can't resist putting it
in my crosspost, there's so many canny folks who check out that NG, and
I know almost all of them drive.

I was chatting with my auto mechanic the other day and I asked him if he
thought all gas was pretty much the same these days - an idea I'd been
encountering. He didn't agree at all.

Now I guess I should say that I have no connections with the petroleum
industry of any kind, none in the auto industry either, or any other
industry associated in any way with gasoline.

He said his truck was running sluggishly and he put in a tank of 76 high
octane and could hardly believe the difference it made. Suddenly the
truck ran smoothly. He said he has a lot of evidence that he and other
people are getting very significantly better mileage since switching to
76. I guess that's 76 Union, unless they've changed their name.

I asked him if he had any experience with their regular gas, and he
couldn't really say, it seemed.

I thought I'd throw this out there and see what other people think.

Myself, I've been using the cheapest regular I can find, usually from
Costco, or a station I know where they sell pretty cheap if you give
them cash. I drive less than 2000/year with my two cars, so it isn't a
giant deal for me, but more mileage and smoother performance would be
reason enough for me to switch to a recommended brand.

Dan

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...

"TURTLE" wrote in message
...

"Dan_Musicant" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 09:09:34 -0500, "Don Phillipson"
wrote:

:"Dan_Musicant" wrote in message
.. .
:
: I was chatting with my auto mechanic the other day and I asked him if he
: thought all gas was pretty much the same these days - an idea I'd been
: encountering. He didn't agree at all.
:
id he tell you about
:1. Octane levels
:2. Leaded vs. lead-free gasoline
:3. Additives e.g. MMT
:4. Supplementary mixed fuels e.g. alcohol ?
:Most pumps are labeled for what they contain in all
:four respects.

No, we didn't talk about all that. I'm in California and I don't think
they're selling leaded gasoline. We do have additives and the CA
standards are different from most of the USA, making the gas a fair
amount more expensive, probably in the neighborhood of 10%. Gasohol is
starting to take off, at least in some places I guess. Can most cars
burn gasohol? I should take the time to read the pumps, like you say.


I want to die calm and peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not
kicking and screaming like the passengers of his car.

This is Turtle Again.

Rather pathetic, really.

*** Octane Burns to make the car run good.

Rather pathetic, really.

*** Additive clean and fix problems.

Rather pathetic, really.

*** Yes Gasohol is different but it has a octane rating as the same as not.

Rather pathetic, really.

Alcohol is a very good fuel to burn for if you will check up here on the fuel
the cars in the Indy 500 are using. You will find out they use pure Alcohol
burning of the fuel.

Pity they are very different engines, and its different alcohol too.

They don't use gas because you can get more power out of Alcohol fuel than
unleaded gas.

Rather pathetic, really.

All the high speed or drag racer prefer Pure Alcohol over unleaded gas. So if
it is me, Give me 90% Alcohol and 10% gas and get more power and mileage.

Rather pathetic, really.

Pity about the price.

Now check your book in the auto to see about burning Alcohol fuel and it will
tell you about it.

Rather pathetic, really.

When all else fails , Read the instructions.

Rather pathetic, really.

TURTLE

Rather pathetic, really.


This is Turtle.

Rod You must get better to be called a troll and have some original material.
Your not original.

TURTLE

"Don Klipstein" wrote in message
...
In article , TURTLE wrote:
SNIP

This is Turtle Again.

*** Octane Burns to make the car run good.
*** Additive clean and fix problems.
*** Yes Gasohol is different but it has a octane rating as the same as not.
Alcohol is a very good fuel to burn for if you will check up here on the fuel
the cars in the Indy 500 are using. You will find out they use pure Alcohol
burning of the fuel. They don't use gas because you can get more power out of
Alcohol fuel than unleaded gas. All the high speed or drag racer prefer Pure
Alcohol over unleaded gas. So if it is me, Give me 90% Alcohol and 10% gas and
get more power and mileage.

Actually, alcohol has such a high octane rating that race car engines
designed to burn it have a higher compression ratio. (Indy cars burn
methanol rather than ethanol, but that does not change any other points.)
Without the higher compression ratio, an engine would actually get less
energy from a gallon of alcohol than from a gallon of gasoline. Fuel
mileage would actually be a little worse.

Cars often get very slightly less mileage with "gasohol" and other
"oxygenated fuel" because these fuels have slightly less chemical energy
per gallon.

Some high octane gasolines have (or at least had several years ago)
alcohol to boost the octane and as a result sometimes get/got very
slightly less fuel economy and power.

----------------------------------------------------------

As for higher octane than the instructions call for being necessary when
the engine has a lot of miles on it: This is *sometimes* true. The usual
cause is bad spark plugs (replace) or carbon deposits in the engine making
detonation occur more easily. Probably less likely if you properly
maintain your engine and air filter. But only use higher octane to the
extent necessary to eliminate knocking.

----------------------------------------------------------

- Don Klipstein )

This is Turtle.

You really confuse me with all the does and don't but I have to revert back to
look in the car info book in the glove box and get the octane rating that the
auto is to burn and use it. It the fuel you use has alcohol or any other stuff
in it but the fuel stated by the manufactor , it make little or no difference in
the operation of the auto and if the valve ping. If the engine makes a noise or
ping You have a motor malifuction and need to have it looked at. Now if your
drag racing or racing the autos I would follow your words as to fuel for high
speed driving and super power. In this case you would not want to burn the 87
octane gas and set the injectors , Car computor chip / speed chip , and timing
system to burn the 97 or 104 octane fuel for maxium speed and power.

Now I will tell you what happen to the Alcohol being put in the place of fuel in
the U.S.A. . We here in the area had a Alcohol manufactoring plant and was
making large amounts of alcohol to be used in the cars. I had a friend of mine
who was a engineer for them and when they shut the doors on it and we talked
about the cause of it closing. He said at the time it cost about $.60 a gallon
to get it to the pump and gas was $.60 a gallon at the pump and the oil companys
was going along with the 10% mix of alcohol and 90% gas because of shortage. At
the time there was some research as to using more alcohol and gas. It was
determined that you could run a 50/50 mix alcohol and gas and cars would run
fine. At this time there was a push to do away with alcohol because of it was no
good to use and really was a bad choice for fuel. One year later the Alcohol
manufactoring plant here closed it was running 24 hour a day 7 days a week and
customers was buying it faster than they could make it. They had a 6 month back
log of orders for it but it was no good at all for fuel for cars. He said if the
market ever went with a 50/50 mix in the gas fuel for cars it would cut the oil
market share in half and make the oil company take a super hit on profit that it
expected to make off the 90% mix fuel. at the 50/50 mix it would kill their
business. Then in about 5 years the plant was reopen to make a additive to
remove water from the gas tanks and was nothing but the same alcohol the added
to the gas to have the 10/90 mix of alcohol. It was open for about a year and
the plant had distribitor who was selling the stuff by the gallon to remove the
water but people was just buying it to use as fuel at $.60 a gallon and gas had
gotten up to $1.00 a gallon. They were using a 50/50 mix and worked fine. You
could buy a 5 gal. jug of alcohol for $3.00 and 5 gal. of gas was $5.00 at the
pump. The E.P.A. come down on them because of the people doing what they was
doing and the plant knew about it by making it in a 5 gal. jug. The E.P.A. made
it so hard on them that they closed in about 6 months for them finding
everything under the sun wrong with their plant. The plant now is nothing but a
bunch of big building in the middle of Soy bean and Rice fields in Franklenton,
Louisiana and a warehouse for a oil company to store and work on oil field
equipment in it. Everybody was growing corn at the time but went back to Rice
and Soy bean after it closed. I even burn some of it and it run fine but when
oil speaks Alcohol listens and gets out of the way. Yes the oil company put out
all kinds of data that says it was no good at all but like i said before Oil
speaks -- Alcohol listens and moves on.

So you will never see the alcohol really come back and compete with oil again.

TURTLE

TURTLE wrote:
"Don Klipstein" wrote in message
...

In article , TURTLE wrote:
SNIP

This is Turtle Again.

*** Octane Burns to make the car run good.
*** Additive clean and fix problems.
*** Yes Gasohol is different but it has a octane rating as the same as not.
Alcohol is a very good fuel to burn for if you will check up here on the fuel
the cars in the Indy 500 are using. You will find out they use pure Alcohol
burning of the fuel. They don't use gas because you can get more power out of
Alcohol fuel than unleaded gas. All the high speed or drag racer prefer Pure
Alcohol over unleaded gas. So if it is me, Give me 90% Alcohol and 10% gas and
get more power and mileage.

Actually, alcohol has such a high octane rating that race car engines
designed to burn it have a higher compression ratio. (Indy cars burn
methanol rather than ethanol, but that does not change any other points.)
Without the higher compression ratio, an engine would actually get less
energy from a gallon of alcohol than from a gallon of gasoline. Fuel
mileage would actually be a little worse.

Cars often get very slightly less mileage with "gasohol" and other
"oxygenated fuel" because these fuels have slightly less chemical energy
per gallon.

Some high octane gasolines have (or at least had several years ago)
alcohol to boost the octane and as a result sometimes get/got very
slightly less fuel economy and power.

----------------------------------------------------------

As for higher octane than the instructions call for being necessary when
the engine has a lot of miles on it: This is *sometimes* true. The usual
cause is bad spark plugs (replace) or carbon deposits in the engine making
detonation occur more easily. Probably less likely if you properly
maintain your engine and air filter. But only use higher octane to the
extent necessary to eliminate knocking.

----------------------------------------------------------

- Don Klipstein )


This is Turtle.

You really confuse me with all the does and don't but I have to revert back to
look in the car info book in the glove box and get the octane rating that the
auto is to burn and use it. It the fuel you use has alcohol or any other stuff
in it but the fuel stated by the manufactor , it make little or no difference in
the operation of the auto and if the valve ping. If the engine makes a noise or
ping You have a motor malifuction and need to have it looked at. Now if your
drag racing or racing the autos I would follow your words as to fuel for high
speed driving and super power. In this case you would not want to burn the 87
octane gas and set the injectors , Car computor chip / speed chip , and timing
system to burn the 97 or 104 octane fuel for maxium speed and power.

Now I will tell you what happen to the Alcohol being put in the place of fuel in
the U.S.A. . We here in the area had a Alcohol manufactoring plant and was
making large amounts of alcohol to be used in the cars. I had a friend of mine
who was a engineer for them and when they shut the doors on it and we talked
about the cause of it closing. He said at the time it cost about $.60 a gallon
to get it to the pump and gas was $.60 a gallon at the pump and the oil companys
was going along with the 10% mix of alcohol and 90% gas because of shortage. At
the time there was some research as to using more alcohol and gas. It was
determined that you could run a 50/50 mix alcohol and gas and cars would run
fine. At this time there was a push to do away with alcohol because of it was no
good to use and really was a bad choice for fuel. One year later the Alcohol
manufactoring plant here closed it was running 24 hour a day 7 days a week and
customers was buying it faster than they could make it. They had a 6 month back
log of orders for it but it was no good at all for fuel for cars. He said if the
market ever went with a 50/50 mix in the gas fuel for cars it would cut the oil
market share in half and make the oil company take a super hit on profit that it
expected to make off the 90% mix fuel. at the 50/50 mix it would kill their
business. Then in about 5 years the plant was reopen to make a additive to
remove water from the gas tanks and was nothing but the same alcohol the added
to the gas to have the 10/90 mix of alcohol. It was open for about a year and
the plant had distribitor who was selling the stuff by the gallon to remove the
water but people was just buying it to use as fuel at $.60 a gallon and gas had
gotten up to $1.00 a gallon. They were using a 50/50 mix and worked fine. You
could buy a 5 gal. jug of alcohol for $3.00 and 5 gal. of gas was $5.00 at the
pump. The E.P.A. come down on them because of the people doing what they was
doing and the plant knew about it by making it in a 5 gal. jug. The E.P.A. made
it so hard on them that they closed in about 6 months for them finding
everything under the sun wrong with their plant. The plant now is nothing but a
bunch of big building in the middle of Soy bean and Rice fields in Franklenton,
Louisiana and a warehouse for a oil company to store and work on oil field
equipment in it. Everybody was growing corn at the time but went back to Rice
and Soy bean after it closed. I even burn some of it and it run fine but when
oil speaks Alcohol listens and gets out of the way. Yes the oil company put out
all kinds of data that says it was no good at all but like i said before Oil
speaks -- Alcohol listens and moves on.

So you will never see the alcohol really come back and compete with oil again.

TURTLE



If they were selling the alcohol at 60 cents and gas was
selling for $1.00, it is no wonder they stopped making
alcohol. You can make alcohol economically if you use
waste products. But you can't grow crops to make alcohol
economically because the energy you put into the process is
greater than the energy you get out of it. There may be
some exception to that, but they are few and far between.

In article ,
says...

Excuse me, that's the point of the higher octane. Ethanol has *less*
energy per gallon than gasoline. This means that per gallon, you should
pay *less* for it. My rule is two or three cents.


Since the ethanol costs more to produce then gasoline, the prices goes
up not down.

Whether you think its a good value for what you get is a different
matter.


--
----------------------------------------------------------------
o |~ Dominique Cormann
| (\._[~] dcormann at rogers.com
|~|) |~~| http://kozmik.guelph.on.ca

In article ,
George E. Cawthon wrote:
(edited for space)
TURTLE wrote:

(story about ethanol plant able to sell ethanol at 60 cents per gallon,
and closing when gas at the pump was $1 per gallon)

If they were selling the alcohol at 60 cents and gas was
selling for $1.00, it is no wonder they stopped making
alcohol. You can make alcohol economically if you use
waste products. But you can't grow crops to make alcohol
economically because the energy you put into the process is
greater than the energy you get out of it. There may be
some exception to that, but they are few and far between.

One other factor: If the gas station was selling gasoline for $1.00 per
gallon, how much of that went to the refinery? I think probably less than
60 cents per gallon, since a major part of the retail cost of gasoline is
taxes.

60 cents per gallon is $25.20 per barrel. I somewhat remember that
refinery costs were somewhere between a nickel and a dime a gallon (could
be a little more now), so for the cost of crude plus refining is 60 cents
per gallon, the crude alone would cost about $21-23 per barrel.
How much did gas cost at the pump last time crude oil was $21 per
barrel? $1.15-$1.20 a gallon? Last time gas was a dollar a gallon, if I
remember correctly, crude was about $17-$18 a barrel.

When crude recently fluctuated as high as $50 per barrel to as low as
mid 40's, the pump price for regular was about $1.80 to $1.95 per gallon -
about 80-90 cents a gallon above the price of crude, and a good chunk of
that is taxes.

- Don Klipstein )

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
TURTLE wrote:
"Don Klipstein" wrote in message
...

In article , TURTLE wrote:
SNIP

This is Turtle Again.

*** Octane Burns to make the car run good.
*** Additive clean and fix problems.
*** Yes Gasohol is different but it has a octane rating as the same as not.
Alcohol is a very good fuel to burn for if you will check up here on the
fuel
the cars in the Indy 500 are using. You will find out they use pure Alcohol
burning of the fuel. They don't use gas because you can get more power out
of
Alcohol fuel than unleaded gas. All the high speed or drag racer prefer Pure
Alcohol over unleaded gas. So if it is me, Give me 90% Alcohol and 10% gas
and
get more power and mileage.

Actually, alcohol has such a high octane rating that race car engines
designed to burn it have a higher compression ratio. (Indy cars burn
methanol rather than ethanol, but that does not change any other points.)
Without the higher compression ratio, an engine would actually get less
energy from a gallon of alcohol than from a gallon of gasoline. Fuel
mileage would actually be a little worse.

Cars often get very slightly less mileage with "gasohol" and other
"oxygenated fuel" because these fuels have slightly less chemical energy
per gallon.

Some high octane gasolines have (or at least had several years ago)
alcohol to boost the octane and as a result sometimes get/got very
slightly less fuel economy and power.

----------------------------------------------------------

As for higher octane than the instructions call for being necessary when
the engine has a lot of miles on it: This is *sometimes* true. The usual
cause is bad spark plugs (replace) or carbon deposits in the engine making
detonation occur more easily. Probably less likely if you properly
maintain your engine and air filter. But only use higher octane to the
extent necessary to eliminate knocking.

----------------------------------------------------------

- Don Klipstein )


This is Turtle.

You really confuse me with all the does and don't but I have to revert back
to look in the car info book in the glove box and get the octane rating that
the auto is to burn and use it. It the fuel you use has alcohol or any other
stuff in it but the fuel stated by the manufactor , it make little or no
difference in the operation of the auto and if the valve ping. If the engine
makes a noise or ping You have a motor malifuction and need to have it looked
at. Now if your drag racing or racing the autos I would follow your words as
to fuel for high speed driving and super power. In this case you would not
want to burn the 87 octane gas and set the injectors , Car computor chip /
speed chip , and timing system to burn the 97 or 104 octane fuel for maxium
speed and power.

Now I will tell you what happen to the Alcohol being put in the place of fuel
in the U.S.A. . We here in the area had a Alcohol manufactoring plant and was
making large amounts of alcohol to be used in the cars. I had a friend of
mine who was a engineer for them and when they shut the doors on it and we
talked about the cause of it closing. He said at the time it cost about $.60
a gallon to get it to the pump and gas was $.60 a gallon at the pump and the
oil companys was going along with the 10% mix of alcohol and 90% gas because
of shortage. At the time there was some research as to using more alcohol and
gas. It was determined that you could run a 50/50 mix alcohol and gas and
cars would run fine. At this time there was a push to do away with alcohol
because of it was no good to use and really was a bad choice for fuel. One
year later the Alcohol manufactoring plant here closed it was running 24 hour
a day 7 days a week and customers was buying it faster than they could make
it. They had a 6 month back log of orders for it but it was no good at all
for fuel for cars. He said if the market ever went with a 50/50 mix in the
gas fuel for cars it would cut the oil market share in half and make the oil
company take a super hit on profit that it expected to make off the 90% mix
fuel. at the 50/50 mix it would kill their business. Then in about 5 years
the plant was reopen to make a additive to remove water from the gas tanks
and was nothing but the same alcohol the added to the gas to have the 10/90
mix of alcohol. It was open for about a year and the plant had distribitor
who was selling the stuff by the gallon to remove the water but people was
just buying it to use as fuel at $.60 a gallon and gas had gotten up to $1.00
a gallon. They were using a 50/50 mix and worked fine. You could buy a 5 gal.
jug of alcohol for $3.00 and 5 gal. of gas was $5.00 at the pump. The E.P.A.
come down on them because of the people doing what they was doing and the
plant knew about it by making it in a 5 gal. jug. The E.P.A. made it so hard
on them that they closed in about 6 months for them finding everything under
the sun wrong with their plant. The plant now is nothing but a bunch of big
building in the middle of Soy bean and Rice fields in Franklenton, Louisiana
and a warehouse for a oil company to store and work on oil field equipment in
it. Everybody was growing corn at the time but went back to Rice and Soy bean
after it closed. I even burn some of it and it run fine but when oil speaks
Alcohol listens and gets out of the way. Yes the oil company put out all
kinds of data that says it was no good at all but like i said before Oil
speaks -- Alcohol listens and moves on.

So you will never see the alcohol really come back and compete with oil
again.

TURTLE

If they were selling the alcohol at 60 cents and gas was selling for $1.00, it
is no wonder they stopped making alcohol. You can make alcohol economically
if you use waste products. But you can't grow crops to make alcohol
economically because the energy you put into the process is greater than the
energy you get out of it. There may be some exception to that, but they are
few and far between.

This is Turtle.

Here is one for you to think about. A 100 pound sack of Whole Corn for cattle
feed will run about $6.00 and the moon shinners can make 20 gallons of shin
Alcohol out of a 100 pound sack of corn. Shin will burn in your care with no gas
at all and you can drink it too. It is 190 proof or 95% Alcohol and 55 water.
That is the samething as gas 94% gas and 6% water.

Now the Alcohol refining product can be bought at the feed store by the 100
pound sack of corn for $6.00 and makes 20 gallions of Alcohol that can be used
as fuel in the auto. Now base gas at $2.00 a gallion and that makes the alcohol
replacing the gas as follow here :

20 Gal. of Alcohol sells for $40.00 as replacement for gas.

20 Gal. of Gas sells for $40.00 as the gas fuel.

100 # of Corn raw crude to refine is $6.00 . So you have a profit and refining
cost of $34.00 for 20 Gal. of fuel / gas.

INFO first. A barrel of oil is 42 Gallons and a 1/2 a barrel of oil is 21 gal.

1/2 barrel of oil 21 gal. cost now about $25.00 so crude to make gas to make 20
gal. of gas cost $25.00 . Then $25.00 for crude to make 20 gal. of gas is
$25.00 - $40.00 = $15.00 refining cost and profit.

$25.00 worth of crude oil makes $40.00 worth of fuel / gas = $15.00 Profit and
Refining cost.

$6.00 worth of crude material / oil makes $40.00 worth of fuel / Alcohol / gas =
$34.00 Profit / Refining Cost.

So they can refine Corn at $6.00 to make $40.00 worth of fuel or they can refine
$25.00 worth of crude oil to make $40.00 worth of fuel. The $6.00 making $40.00
worth of fuel sounds a whole lot better than $25.00 worth of crude to make
$40.00 worth of fuel. The Corn is a whole lot cheaper to make the fuel than from
Crude oil.

Now the data of the 100 # of Corn can make 20 gal. of Shin is a fact in this
part of the country and i can get you to talk to Crocket Johnson who makes shin
and check the facts. This is a fact and no bull. Now of cource Crocket wants
$20.00 a Gal. for 190 proof / 95% Alcohol shine and it is the good stuff.

Alcohol can be made cheaper than gas now days but with the oil company against
it. Alcohol is just too costly to produce.

TURTLE

"Bill Bonde ( ``And the Lamb lies down on Broadway'' )"
wrote in message ...


Don Klipstein wrote:

In article , TURTLE wrote:
SNIP

This is Turtle Again.

*** Octane Burns to make the car run good.
*** Additive clean and fix problems.
*** Yes Gasohol is different but it has a octane rating as the same as not.
Alcohol is a very good fuel to burn for if you will check up here on the
fuel
the cars in the Indy 500 are using. You will find out they use pure Alcohol
burning of the fuel. They don't use gas because you can get more power out
of
Alcohol fuel than unleaded gas. All the high speed or drag racer prefer Pure
Alcohol over unleaded gas. So if it is me, Give me 90% Alcohol and 10% gas
and
get more power and mileage.

Actually, alcohol has such a high octane rating that race car engines
designed to burn it have a higher compression ratio.

Excuse me, that's the point of the higher octane. Ethanol has *less*
energy per gallon than gasoline. This means that per gallon, you should
pay *less* for it. My rule is two or three cents.


This is Turtle.

You forgot that the U.S. Government has octane rating and this covers everything
you say and burniability of the fuel. 87 Octane Gasohol or 87 Octane Gas have
the same burniability as each other. If it was not the same it would have a less
or more of a Octane rating on it.

TURTLE

"TURTLE" wrote in message
...

"Bill Bonde ( ``And the Lamb lies down on Broadway'' )"
wrote in message
...


Don Klipstein wrote:

In article , TURTLE wrote:
SNIP

This is Turtle Again.

*** Octane Burns to make the car run good.
*** Additive clean and fix problems.
*** Yes Gasohol is different but it has a octane rating as the same as not.
Alcohol is a very good fuel to burn for if you will check up here on the
fuel
the cars in the Indy 500 are using. You will find out they use pure Alcohol
burning of the fuel. They don't use gas because you can get more power out
of
Alcohol fuel than unleaded gas. All the high speed or drag racer prefer
Pure
Alcohol over unleaded gas. So if it is me, Give me 90% Alcohol and 10% gas
and
get more power and mileage.

Actually, alcohol has such a high octane rating that race car engines
designed to burn it have a higher compression ratio.

Excuse me, that's the point of the higher octane. Ethanol has *less*
energy per gallon than gasoline. This means that per gallon, you should
pay *less* for it. My rule is two or three cents.

This is Turtle.

Rather pathetic, really.

You forgot that the U.S. Government has octane rating and this covers
everything you say and burniability of the fuel.

Its more complicated than that.

87 Octane Gasohol or 87 Octane Gas have the same burniability as each other.

More complicated than that too.

If it was not the same it would have a less or more of a Octane rating on it.

More complicated than that too.

TURTLE

Rather pathetic, really.