I have been in my 9 1/2 year old home which is on a relatively high
water table for almost 3 months now and I am having nothing but
problems with my Flotec sump pump. It's a submersible 1/2 HP model and
the problem stems from the tethered float switch. The first problem
was during a couple rainstorms the float got caught up either on the
electrical cord or the drain hose and failed to turn on. I fixed this
as best as possible by strapping these items to the wall to keep them
out of the way. It kept happening anyway because when the pump kicks
on it tends to "walk" a little and it just seems that this tethered
float switch is a bad design for something you need to be reliable such
as a sump pump. The pump this week had the opposite problem. When I
came home from work and heard it running continuously, even with the
tethered float switch in the dropped position I determined the switch
is no good. I believe this is a sealed item and cannot be opened for
repair. It seems my options are as follows; replace the switch for
around $35, replace the entire unit with the same model for $89,
replace with a pedestal type for somewhere in the middle of those two
prices, or invest $160 in a model made by Rigid which uses a
bolted-in-place diaphragm type switch which I know nothing about. The
downside of the pedestal type appears to be they are louder and since
the sump is located below the bulkhead stairs clearance may be an issue
although I have not measured yet. The sump "bucket" measures 11 1/2" W
and 12" deep. A separate issue is even when the Flotec pump I have was
working correctly I still had a decent amount of water that would make
it's way into the basement because the point at which the tethered
float switch would turn on was when the water would reach the top of
the sump bucket. This water was from right around the sump but also in
other areas of the basement (seam at the bottom of the walls where the
floor meets the wall, and in some small cracks in the floor) so I'd
imagine while not directly related to the timing of the pump, had the
pumped turn on a few inches earlier this water wouldn't have made its
way to the foundation level. I may be incorrect on that theory but I
mention it here to be corrected if I am mistaken. I guess the easy
answer is to try the Rigid pump but I know not all problems are
corrected by spending more $$$. While looking at these pumps @ HD &
Lowes I noticed a smaller version pump made by Flotec and referred to
as a utility pump. Some even stated "not designed for use as a sump
pump." While it may not be designed for it why wouldn't this work in a
sump application? They appear to be better designed in that there is
no tethered float switch, just some internal type of switch. My guess
is the reasons may lie in the fact that their specs indicate they pump
down to 3/16" but wouldn't placing it on as many bricks as necessary to
place it at an acceptable level correct this? The other reason I could
think of is the lack of a reasonable timeframe between low-water level
and high-water level in that if it rose just 3/16 of an inch it would
kick on again causing what I'd imagine would be a short cycle
condition. I am thoroughly confused at this point and would really
appreciate any help you can offer.

Try these:

http://www.plumbersurplus.com/Category.aspx?ID=687
or these:

http://www.plumbersurplus.com/ProductList.aspx?ID=347

wrote:


-snip-
replace with a pedestal type for somewhere in the middle of those two

If you are going to stick with that tiny sump hole, I think that's
your only choice. --- But I'd enlarge the hole.

prices, or invest $160 in a model made by Rigid which uses a
bolted-in-place diaphragm type switch which I know nothing about.

I have had one for a few years. I hate it because there is no way
[that I've figured out] to trip it early in the event that I want to
do some maintenance in the hole-- or just want to empty it early.

The upside is that it seems to be pretty reliable.

-snip-
The sump "bucket" measures 11 1/2" W and 12" deep.

IMO that is *way* too small. I'd go for 24"x30" by 24" deep. That
gives you a good volume of water so no short cycling-- and you can put
the alarm low enough to give you some warning between when the pump
has failed & when the water becomes a problem.

A separate issue is even when the Flotec pump I have was
working correctly I still had a decent amount of water that would make
it's way into the basement because the point at which the tethered
float switch would turn on was when the water would reach the top of
the sump bucket.
-snip-

I don't know where the 'top of the sump bucket' is--- but I wouldn't
want the water ever getting any higher than the bottom of the gravel
base below the slab.

If I were you-- First I'd enlarge the hole. Then I'd get another
float type pump-- Then I'd stat working on eliminating the source of
the water. [landscaping, gutters, exterior perimeter drains, etc]


Jim

wrote:

SNIP

The sump "bucket" measures 11 1/2" W
and 12" deep. A separate issue is even when the Flotec pump I have was
working correctly I still had a decent amount of water that would make
it's way into the basement because the point at which the tethered
float switch would turn on was when the water would reach the top of
the sump bucket. This water was from right around the sump but also in
other areas of the basement (seam at the bottom of the walls where the
floor meets the wall, and in some small cracks in the floor)


Start out by making the sump pit about twice the width and depth. (no
one said it was going to be fun) Don't skimp on the depth. Then follow
the other instructions on how to make it cycle properly, also making
sure it cycles when the water is no less than 12 inches from the top of
the floor.

--
Tony

it syphons back because the opening at the sump pump end is lower then
the opening at the other end. work the same as a syphon

I suggest you install an anti syphon check valve at the pump which will
prevent the water from running backwards.

you can also add a SMALL hole to the pipe at the highest point after
the check valve to allow air to enter and let the water slowly drain
out of the pipe when the pump shuts off so it is less likely to freeze.

Yes some water will come out of the small hole when the pump is
running.

Mark

I'd also make the sump hole larger, if possible. The more water per
cycle, the less effect some of it running back in will have.

I thought your freezing issue was only outside...
is it also freezing at the pit where the pump is?

when the pump shuts off, there will always be some water left in the
pipe.

you have to decide what you want that water to do

if you do nothing it will all quickly run back into the pit becuase the
low water pulls the water up hill
this really isn't so bad si maybe just don't worry about it

if you add an antsyphon check valve, the water will sit in the pipe

if you add an antisyphon check valve and a small hole, the water will
sit in the pipe but will slowly drain

you can use two holes. one hole in the pit just above the anti syphon
value, then the water will slowly drain into the pit, maybe slow enough
that it does't matter. you can also add a hole at the high point of
the pipe (to break the vacumm) so some of the water can slowly drain
out the far end.

But remember, a small stream of water will squirt out of the small
holes when the pump is running.


Mark

and the water doesn't really run uphill, the opening at the pump is
lower then the opening at the far end so the water runs uphill pat of
the way but then runs down hill at the pump more then it went uphill.
There is a net downhill for the water.

Thats another solution for you, if you can get the opening at the far
end of the pipe to be lower then the opening at the pump, the water
will continue to run out all by itself when the pump shuts off.


Mark

The water in a 3 foot x 3 foot pit 2 inches high is about 11 gallons.
That is how much water is running back. Instead of a small hole at the
top of the pipe, tap a hole and install a vacuum breaker, or an upside
down u-shaped pipe with a check valve at the end which will act the
same way. The pressure from the pump will push the vacuum breaker
closed, then when the pump shuts off the vacuum from the siphon will
pull it open. No water will come out where you don't want it to, and
the siphon will be stopped.

Stretch

According to :
On 21 Apr 2005 18:14:14 -0700, "stretch" wrote:

The water in a 3 foot x 3 foot pit 2 inches high is about 11 gallons.
That is how much water is running back. Instead of a small hole at the
top of the pipe, tap a hole and install a vacuum breaker, or an upside
down u-shaped pipe with a check valve at the end which will act the
same way. The pressure from the pump will push the vacuum breaker
closed, then when the pump shuts off the vacuum from the siphon will
pull it open. No water will come out where you don't want it to, and
the siphon will be stopped.

I'll give this a try this weekend if it's not raining , sounds like it
will work. I'll let you know. Thanks

Other posters mentioned anti-siphon valves, but they seemed to misunderstand
how they work, thinking that they were check valves. An anti-siphon valve
is effectively a check valve, but instead of being inline (to prevent
backflow), one end (the "goesinto end" ;-) is in free air. So if you draw
vacuum, the valve opens and lets air in.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

um, thats not how it is on my pump, its an inline backflow valve.

I'm sure there is more than one type

The valve you describe will not prevent water from flowing back into
the pit but will prevent it from sitting in the pipe.

Mark

According to Mark :
um, thats not how it is on my pump, its an inline backflow valve.

Then it's not an anti-siphon valve, it's a check valve.

I'm sure there is more than one type

The valve you describe will not prevent water from flowing back into
the pit but will prevent it from sitting in the pipe.

Sure it will prevent backflow (or at least MOST of the backflow).

If, as others surmise, the backflow into the pit is because the pit
is lower than the outflow, and it's siphoning back, a valve as I
describe (at the highest point in the line) will instantly kill
the siphoning action and let the water drain out in both directions.

If there's risk of freezing in the pit, the anti-siphon valve will
ensure that as little water as possible remains in the line.

If you use a checkvalve, then you guarantee that the line remains
full of water even if the pit is dry. Which is a recipe
for (eventual) disaster if the pit ever freezes.

In order to minimize the amount of backflow into the pit, and
at the same time make sure that the lines empty when the pump
isn't operating, you arrange things so that the high point of
the line (and thus the position of the anti-siphon valve) is
as close as possible to the pit.

In other words, run the line straight up from the pit to a height
higher than any other in the routing to the outfall, and install
the anti-siphon there. When the pump stops, then, you'll at
most get a couple feet worth of line draining back into the pit -
instead of siphoning back the whole line (or worse, that plus
the contents of the ditch) into the pit.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

ok, agreed
Mark

I'll likely be flamed for t his, but what occured dto me is to put an
inverted P-trap. Something like:

!--------!
! !
SUMP ! !__________________discharge

So that the outlet pipe goes UP a wasys before going over. Don't know if
that will help. But it makes sense. The other thought, is that if you can
run a pipe way up (fifteen feet or so) you can put a vertical vent. Half
inch or so. That way, you will not get siphon effect drawing the water back
to the sump pump.

OK, flame me now. Your turn.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


wrote in message
...
I have a curtain drain in the yard that runs into a 5 ft deep cement
box with a sump pump in it. The 1.5 PVC pipe that was connected to it
ran about 150ft. to a ditch and did not have a continuous drop, it
went up and down causing a lot of water to run back into the sump pump
box and hold water in the pipe also it made the pump run more often.

I replaced the PVC pipe with 3in. pipe and had a very slight drop to
it as the 150ft. run does not have a lot of drop. I am still getting
water coming back to the box/ sump when it stops again causing the
pump to rum more often than it should. I know for sure my 3in. pipe is
put in much better than the 1.5 pipe but still get close to the same
water running back.

The sump pump has the 1.5 pipe lifting about 5 ft. as it comes out of
the box and about 1 ft. past that is were I changed it over to the 3
in. pipe, could this be part of the problem? It seems the pump has to
run 2 times before I see water coming out the end of the 150ft.run. I
went back and checked the level of the 3in. pipe to make sure it has a
drop going the right way. Part of the run it just level no drop but at
no time is it running back toward the sump pump. I only had about 4 to
5in in drop for the 150ft run, that is why some of the pipe is set to
level so I could come out from under the ground to daylight at the end
of the run. I am thinking now that maybe I should have run the 1.5in
pipe 10 or so more ft. before going to the 3in. pipe to give it more
push. A friend thinks it's just the water causing flow back from the
water hitting it's self and pushing it back to the pump.

I have not use a check valve because it get well below freezing here
and I am thinking that if I put a 3in. check valve at the beginning of
the horizontal 3in. pipe and it's not flow back it will fill the back
part of the pipe and freeze.

Any ideas on why the water is going the wrong way? As I said no place
in the pipe is it running back, the pipe is running with a drop or at
least level, the level part being about half way in the run but the
first and last part of the pipe run are on a drop.

Thanks

According to Stormin Mormon :
I'll likely be flamed for t his, but what occured dto me is to put an
inverted P-trap. Something like:

!--------!
! !
SUMP ! !__________________discharge

So that the outlet pipe goes UP a wasys before going over. Don't know if
that will help. But it makes sense. The other thought, is that if you can
run a pipe way up (fifteen feet or so) you can put a vertical vent. Half
inch or so. That way, you will not get siphon effect drawing the water back
to the sump pump.

OK, flame me now. Your turn.

Flame thrower set ......

The inverted trap-like section of pipe will NOT prevent siphoning.

There, satisfied? ;-0

If you put a vent (or anti-siphon) valve on the pipe at the high
point, it will prevent siphoning.

No need to go up 15 feet per-se, just go up enough to be higher than
anywhere else on the line by a few inches.

It boils down to something like this:

- If the outlet is lower than the pit, you really don't need a check valve
or anti-siphon. The water will simply flow out by itself.

- If the outlet is a bit higher than the pit, but lower than your head-room,
you can use an anti-siphon valve. You can still use a checkvalve if you
wish, but this would be bad if the pit is subject to freezing.

- If the outlet is much higher than the pit, you need a check valve, and
an anti-siphon won't help. If freezing is possible, you have a considerably
harder thing to solve.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.