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Vinnie Murdico
 
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Default Rain seeping inside through concrete block wall above grade (Warning: LONG explanation)

Hi all,

I'm looking for some ideas on where a leak problem might be in our house
(mostly because I'm not sure about how concrete block walls are
constructed). We have a block house in FL built in 2001 (well, block up
to the bottom of the roof line then wood sheathing covered in stucco on
the gable ends of the house).

*** The Problem:
One of the windows on that wall was leaking water from above it. This
happened once before, but only in the same circumstance -- when we have
a tropical storm and wind-driven rain is driven at this side of the
house. The wall is very tall there as the peak of the roof is straight
up from this window (there's about 10 more feet of flat wall abovce this
window).

*** My Diagnosis (so far):
Anyway, we noticed water dripping in though a hole in the sheetrock used
to mount a vertical blind rail. In order to diagnose it better, we
removed sheetrock above the window to see the source. The window has a
pre-cast lentil above it spanning the window and block all around it.
There is at least one course of block above the lentil that I can see (I
only removed enough sheetrock to see the start of the leak. Some fo the
mortar joints had small holes (approx 1/8") that seemed to be where the
water was seeking its way inside.

Looking at the lentil, it has blocks on top of it and there is mortar
between the sides of each block and under each block (between the block
and lentil). During heavy wind-blown rain against that wall, water is
"streaming" from the vertical mortar seams between the blocks above the
lentil, and seeping through the horizontal mortar seams between the
lentil and the block above it. The problem here is that once it gets
onto the house side of the block it gets the sheetrock wet, etc.

We also went into the attic and looked at the roof and wall above this
window -- nothing. Everything is dry as a bone during the middle of the
storm while the window is dripping. I can't see the top of the lentil
from the attic, though, There appears to be some horizontal wood down
the wall above the lentil blocking it's view. But everything I can see
as far down the wall as I can see is all dry, as well as the roof and
attic insulation.

*** What about this?
On the exterior wall where this window is we can see some type of
horizontal "joint" that stretches the width of the house, about 8 feet
up. We think it's either some type of expansion joint or perhaps a weep
screed, but I've not heard of weep screeps up that high. In any event,
It seem that this joint might allow enough water to enter behind the
stucco and (somehow) into the block, but we can't be sure. There must
be a lot of water pooling in the hollow block above the lentil because
it is dripping at a very fast pace. If you wipe it away it starts
streaming again immediately. I event tried squishing rubber silicone
sealant onto the holes in the mortar (from the inside) just to
temporarily plug the entry point, but the water seeped either through it
or around it and still came in at the same pace. It must be a lot of
water in there!

We looked for stucco cracks and saw a few "hairline" (at best) cracks
running vertically above the "joint" for about 3 ft. in length, but I
wasn't sure that such a fine hairline crack would let enough water in to
let it get inside the block and drip out like a fast-dripping faucet.

I was half-temped to drill into the block above the lentil just to see
if it drains out and see how much water is in there, but I won't dare
for fear of making the problem worse! g

Can anyone think of what might cause this much water to get inside the
block such that it is seeping into the house through the mortar? I've
heard it's normal for some water to get behind the stucco, but I thought
it was supposed to run down the outside of a water barrier and then out
the weep screed (which I thought was at the bottom of the wall). Is it
normal for water to get inside the conrete blocks that make up the wall?
If so where should this water go when it hits a solid lentil? I'd
greatly appreciate any ideas anyone might have as to why something like
this might happen.

Thanks,
-- Vinnie








  #2   Report Post  
Art
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Here is a site on masonry construction.

http://www.bia.org/

Basically there are suppose to be flashed weepholes above windows if this is
a masonry veneer house. In other words if the block is in front of a wood
or metal frame, you should have weepholes for water to get out at strategic
places. I know nothing about double block walls but hopefully you will find
what you need at this great site in the technical notes.


"Vinnie Murdico" wrote in message
news:SKK_c.927$Q44.672@trnddc09...
Hi all,

I'm looking for some ideas on where a leak problem might be in our house
(mostly because I'm not sure about how concrete block walls are
constructed). We have a block house in FL built in 2001 (well, block up
to the bottom of the roof line then wood sheathing covered in stucco on
the gable ends of the house).

*** The Problem:
One of the windows on that wall was leaking water from above it. This
happened once before, but only in the same circumstance -- when we have
a tropical storm and wind-driven rain is driven at this side of the
house. The wall is very tall there as the peak of the roof is straight
up from this window (there's about 10 more feet of flat wall abovce this
window).

*** My Diagnosis (so far):
Anyway, we noticed water dripping in though a hole in the sheetrock used
to mount a vertical blind rail. In order to diagnose it better, we
removed sheetrock above the window to see the source. The window has a
pre-cast lentil above it spanning the window and block all around it.
There is at least one course of block above the lentil that I can see (I
only removed enough sheetrock to see the start of the leak. Some fo the
mortar joints had small holes (approx 1/8") that seemed to be where the
water was seeking its way inside.

Looking at the lentil, it has blocks on top of it and there is mortar
between the sides of each block and under each block (between the block
and lentil). During heavy wind-blown rain against that wall, water is
"streaming" from the vertical mortar seams between the blocks above the
lentil, and seeping through the horizontal mortar seams between the
lentil and the block above it. The problem here is that once it gets
onto the house side of the block it gets the sheetrock wet, etc.

We also went into the attic and looked at the roof and wall above this
window -- nothing. Everything is dry as a bone during the middle of the
storm while the window is dripping. I can't see the top of the lentil
from the attic, though, There appears to be some horizontal wood down
the wall above the lentil blocking it's view. But everything I can see
as far down the wall as I can see is all dry, as well as the roof and
attic insulation.

*** What about this?
On the exterior wall where this window is we can see some type of
horizontal "joint" that stretches the width of the house, about 8 feet
up. We think it's either some type of expansion joint or perhaps a weep
screed, but I've not heard of weep screeps up that high. In any event,
It seem that this joint might allow enough water to enter behind the
stucco and (somehow) into the block, but we can't be sure. There must
be a lot of water pooling in the hollow block above the lentil because
it is dripping at a very fast pace. If you wipe it away it starts
streaming again immediately. I event tried squishing rubber silicone
sealant onto the holes in the mortar (from the inside) just to
temporarily plug the entry point, but the water seeped either through it
or around it and still came in at the same pace. It must be a lot of
water in there!

We looked for stucco cracks and saw a few "hairline" (at best) cracks
running vertically above the "joint" for about 3 ft. in length, but I
wasn't sure that such a fine hairline crack would let enough water in to
let it get inside the block and drip out like a fast-dripping faucet.

I was half-temped to drill into the block above the lentil just to see
if it drains out and see how much water is in there, but I won't dare
for fear of making the problem worse! g

Can anyone think of what might cause this much water to get inside the
block such that it is seeping into the house through the mortar? I've
heard it's normal for some water to get behind the stucco, but I thought
it was supposed to run down the outside of a water barrier and then out
the weep screed (which I thought was at the bottom of the wall). Is it
normal for water to get inside the conrete blocks that make up the wall?
If so where should this water go when it hits a solid lentil? I'd
greatly appreciate any ideas anyone might have as to why something like
this might happen.

Thanks,
-- Vinnie










  #3   Report Post  
ameijers
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Vinnie Murdico" wrote in message
news:SKK_c.927$Q44.672@trnddc09...
Hi all,

I'm looking for some ideas on where a leak problem might be in our house
(mostly because I'm not sure about how concrete block walls are
constructed). We have a block house in FL built in 2001 (well, block up
to the bottom of the roof line then wood sheathing covered in stucco on
the gable ends of the house).

(huge snip)
Can't see your house from here, but based on your explanation (stucco'd
frame gable above block wall), I'd say you are on the right track. Somehow
or other, they did the block to frame transition improperly, and water is
bypassing the moisture barrier and flashing, and building up in the space in
the block, then draining out into your room.

I'd do what you can to block the water (nail a tarp over gable end?), and
live with it until you can get the wall opened up, once all the contractors
get past the workload hump from last 2 storms. Gable end usually isn't
load-bearing, so it isn't a huge job, but it will scare you how much they
have to open the wall up.

aem sends...

  #4   Report Post  
Vinnie Murdico
 
Posts: n/a
Default

or other, they did the block to frame transition improperly, and water
is
bypassing the moisture barrier and flashing, and building up in the
space in
the block, then draining out into your room.


Thanks for the info. Is that transition between block and wall most
likely an "expansion joint" or a "weep screed"? I know you can't see my
house g, but I was wondering if one or the other is unlikely or more
likely.

If it is an expansion joint, can it be caulked somehow if that's where
the water is infiltrating?

Thanks again,
-- Vinnie


  #5   Report Post  
ameijers
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Vinnie Murdico" wrote in message
news:nCM_c.3480$j62.3425@trnddc04...
or other, they did the block to frame transition improperly, and water
is
bypassing the moisture barrier and flashing, and building up in the
space in
the block, then draining out into your room.


Thanks for the info. Is that transition between block and wall most
likely an "expansion joint" or a "weep screed"? I know you can't see my
house g, but I was wondering if one or the other is unlikely or more
likely.

If it is an expansion joint, can it be caulked somehow if that's where
the water is infiltrating?

Not sure what you mean by weep screed, but up here in the frozen north,
frame walls on top of block are usually a 2x6 (or whatever) treated lumber
sill plate, on top of some sort of gasketing material, held down by embedded
bolts in the block, with the studs nailed to the treated wood, and the
sheathing extending almost down to the concrete. There would (or should) be
some sort of flashing up under the tarpaper or Tyvek or whatever, extending
down over the concrete, to keep water out of the joint. I suspect since it
was so high on the wall, they skimped out on the flashing, figuring the
Tyvek or whatever was good enough. Unless you can still get the builder to
open the wall up as a warranty/goodwill gesture, I'm afraid you are looking
at some money. Basically, once they make a small hole above window to verify
if flashing was done wrong, it means stripping that gable and redoing the
weatherproofing correctly, replacing any rotted lumber as you go. The stucco
itself may be porous, and the water is building up behind it. You didn't
notice before, because roof overhang usually protected it pretty well. (rain
is supposed to go down, not sideways, after all.)

Of course, not being familiar with usual and customary FL building
practices, I may be as all wet as your wall is getting. One thing for sure-
the longer you wait for the repair, the worse the damage, unless it stops
raining. And Ivan is a week out.

aem sends...



  #6   Report Post  
Vinnie Murdico
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Not sure what you mean by weep screed
I had read that a weep screed was a type of horizontal flashing that
went under the stucco to help drain water or condensation under the
stucco but on top of the house wrap and allow it to "weep" out the
bottom of the wall. I guess I was just wondering if they would put one
in the middle of the wall (8 ft. up) or if it was defintely some type of
"joint". In the case of a joint between the block and sheathing, it
would probably be "sealable", but in the case of a weep screed, it most
likely would not be to allow water to drain. But again, I've never
heard of a weep screed up high, normally just above grade level to allow
water to drain out the bottom if it got behind the stucco. That's just
what I've read -- I'm certainly no expert g.

Unless you can still get the builder to
open the wall up as a warranty/goodwill gesture, I'm afraid you are
looking
at some money.

I'd like to get the builder involved even though we're out of warranty
(1 yr), but now we're thinking of calling in a home inspector first to
get an independent opinion of the source of the problem first. Then he
may be able to tell us what *should* be done to fix it. While a
warranty repair (if we can get it done as one) would be nice, I'm not
certain I even want the builder doing the work again as they may not
realize what they did wrong in the first place. (The homebuilder's
subcontract labor in this area is....um, questionable... g).

Of course, not being familiar with usual and customary FL building
practices, I may be as all wet as your wall is getting.

That's ok - I'll take any advice I can get right now -- I just want to
learn more about what it *could* be so I can go forward with a bit more
knowledge and understanding when the actual repair is made -- hopefully
correctly this time g.

One thing for sure-
the longer you wait for the repair, the worse the damage, unless it
stops
raining. And Ivan is a week out.

Yeah, we've already placed a call in to an inspector, but I know we
won't be able to get one out here AND get a repair crew out here all
before Ivan comes in. At this point, we're resigned to the fact that if
Ivan hits our north side, we're collecting "wall-water" in Tupperware
again. At least our rainy season will be over in about another month so
we should be out of the worst of the woods in a few more weeks, and then
they can take as long as they want to come out and fix it! g

Thanks again,
-- Vinnie


  #7   Report Post  
Art
 
Posts: n/a
Default

If the work was initially a code violation or otherwise defective, even
though he only gave you a 1 year warranty, unless you signed a contract that
clearly said otherwise, you can sue him in most areas of the country (US)
until the statute of limitations (which varies by state). That said, sueing
is expensive and often not worth it unless you are talking about a major
repair or can do it in small claims court.


"Vinnie Murdico" wrote in message
news:s4P_c.2398$BQ4.748@trnddc06...
Not sure what you mean by weep screed

I had read that a weep screed was a type of horizontal flashing that
went under the stucco to help drain water or condensation under the
stucco but on top of the house wrap and allow it to "weep" out the
bottom of the wall. I guess I was just wondering if they would put one
in the middle of the wall (8 ft. up) or if it was defintely some type of
"joint". In the case of a joint between the block and sheathing, it
would probably be "sealable", but in the case of a weep screed, it most
likely would not be to allow water to drain. But again, I've never
heard of a weep screed up high, normally just above grade level to allow
water to drain out the bottom if it got behind the stucco. That's just
what I've read -- I'm certainly no expert g.

Unless you can still get the builder to
open the wall up as a warranty/goodwill gesture, I'm afraid you are
looking
at some money.

I'd like to get the builder involved even though we're out of warranty
(1 yr), but now we're thinking of calling in a home inspector first to
get an independent opinion of the source of the problem first. Then he
may be able to tell us what *should* be done to fix it. While a
warranty repair (if we can get it done as one) would be nice, I'm not
certain I even want the builder doing the work again as they may not
realize what they did wrong in the first place. (The homebuilder's
subcontract labor in this area is....um, questionable... g).

Of course, not being familiar with usual and customary FL building
practices, I may be as all wet as your wall is getting.

That's ok - I'll take any advice I can get right now -- I just want to
learn more about what it *could* be so I can go forward with a bit more
knowledge and understanding when the actual repair is made -- hopefully
correctly this time g.

One thing for sure-
the longer you wait for the repair, the worse the damage, unless it
stops
raining. And Ivan is a week out.

Yeah, we've already placed a call in to an inspector, but I know we
won't be able to get one out here AND get a repair crew out here all
before Ivan comes in. At this point, we're resigned to the fact that if
Ivan hits our north side, we're collecting "wall-water" in Tupperware
again. At least our rainy season will be over in about another month so
we should be out of the worst of the woods in a few more weeks, and then
they can take as long as they want to come out and fix it! g

Thanks again,
-- Vinnie




  #8   Report Post  
Vinnie Murdico
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Art" wrote in message
ink.net...
If the work was initially a code violation or otherwise defective,
even
though he only gave you a 1 year warranty, unless you signed a
contract that
clearly said otherwise, you can sue him in most areas of the country
(US)
until the statute of limitations (which varies by state).


Interesting -- well, this may actually become a "class action" suit! We
just found out today that about 7 or 8 neighbors (that we know of) had
the same problem(s) with water infiltration on the North and South sides
of the house. We also had water seeping in under the baseboard on the
opposite side of the house after the rain shifted last night when the
eye passed. That wall is much smaller and has no expansion joint, so we
know that wasn't a cause on that wall. The grade outside is below the
slab level so that can also be ruled out.

Most of our neighbors with problems also had water coming in under the
baseboard on the North or South sides of thier houses (same as ours
since that's where the wind/rain came from). In fact, one of the houses
was done by a different builder (but in our same neighborhood), and that
homeowner actually had more water infiltration problems scattered
throughout the house -- floor and ceiling. I'm starting to think they
all have been using the same (unskilled) labor, the same substandard
stucco, and/or the same substandard paint. All of these house are
simply not "sealed" properly, it would seem. In fact, even with the
stucco on the wall, on some houses on our street, you can see the
"stairstep effect" of the mortar joints on the walls after any heavy
rain, and it's especially visible today. I'm assuming with a good coat
of stucco and good paint, water shouldn't make it to the mortar joints
and they probably shouldn't be visible after a rain storm.

We've just called an independent home inspector that was recommended by
several neighbors in the past (for earlier water infiltration problems)
to come in and review our problem and offer some possible causes. My
guess is whatever is wrong in our house is the same problem affecting
most of our neighbor's houses, although several of them will be hiring
this inspector as well to evaluate their houses individually.

Thanks again,
-- Vinnie


  #9   Report Post  
Art
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You might want to call a professional engineer. You would need his
expertise in a lawsuit anyway.


"Vinnie Murdico" wrote in message
news:IX3%c.3259$BQ4.158@trnddc06...
"Art" wrote in message
ink.net...
If the work was initially a code violation or otherwise defective,
even
though he only gave you a 1 year warranty, unless you signed a
contract that
clearly said otherwise, you can sue him in most areas of the country
(US)
until the statute of limitations (which varies by state).


Interesting -- well, this may actually become a "class action" suit! We
just found out today that about 7 or 8 neighbors (that we know of) had
the same problem(s) with water infiltration on the North and South sides
of the house. We also had water seeping in under the baseboard on the
opposite side of the house after the rain shifted last night when the
eye passed. That wall is much smaller and has no expansion joint, so we
know that wasn't a cause on that wall. The grade outside is below the
slab level so that can also be ruled out.

Most of our neighbors with problems also had water coming in under the
baseboard on the North or South sides of thier houses (same as ours
since that's where the wind/rain came from). In fact, one of the houses
was done by a different builder (but in our same neighborhood), and that
homeowner actually had more water infiltration problems scattered
throughout the house -- floor and ceiling. I'm starting to think they
all have been using the same (unskilled) labor, the same substandard
stucco, and/or the same substandard paint. All of these house are
simply not "sealed" properly, it would seem. In fact, even with the
stucco on the wall, on some houses on our street, you can see the
"stairstep effect" of the mortar joints on the walls after any heavy
rain, and it's especially visible today. I'm assuming with a good coat
of stucco and good paint, water shouldn't make it to the mortar joints
and they probably shouldn't be visible after a rain storm.

We've just called an independent home inspector that was recommended by
several neighbors in the past (for earlier water infiltration problems)
to come in and review our problem and offer some possible causes. My
guess is whatever is wrong in our house is the same problem affecting
most of our neighbor's houses, although several of them will be hiring
this inspector as well to evaluate their houses individually.

Thanks again,
-- Vinnie




  #10   Report Post  
Dave
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Have you considered that maybe it came in though the soffit vents?
We've had the same problem with the homes in our neighborhood during
frances. It seemed to be worse when i had horizontal rains parallel to
the gable -- so that the rain could enter directly into the holes.
We're trying to get inspectors out here as well. I live north of tampa
and my builder was Lennar.

"Vinnie Murdico" wrote in message news:SKK_c.927$Q44.672@trnddc09...
Hi all,

I'm looking for some ideas on where a leak problem might be in our house
(mostly because I'm not sure about how concrete block walls are
constructed). We have a block house in FL built in 2001 (well, block up
to the bottom of the roof line then wood sheathing covered in stucco on
the gable ends of the house).

*** The Problem:
One of the windows on that wall was leaking water from above it. This
happened once before, but only in the same circumstance -- when we have
a tropical storm and wind-driven rain is driven at this side of the
house. The wall is very tall there as the peak of the roof is straight
up from this window (there's about 10 more feet of flat wall abovce this
window).

*** My Diagnosis (so far):
Anyway, we noticed water dripping in though a hole in the sheetrock used
to mount a vertical blind rail. In order to diagnose it better, we
removed sheetrock above the window to see the source. The window has a
pre-cast lentil above it spanning the window and block all around it.
There is at least one course of block above the lentil that I can see (I
only removed enough sheetrock to see the start of the leak. Some fo the
mortar joints had small holes (approx 1/8") that seemed to be where the
water was seeking its way inside.

Looking at the lentil, it has blocks on top of it and there is mortar
between the sides of each block and under each block (between the block
and lentil). During heavy wind-blown rain against that wall, water is
"streaming" from the vertical mortar seams between the blocks above the
lentil, and seeping through the horizontal mortar seams between the
lentil and the block above it. The problem here is that once it gets
onto the house side of the block it gets the sheetrock wet, etc.

We also went into the attic and looked at the roof and wall above this
window -- nothing. Everything is dry as a bone during the middle of the
storm while the window is dripping. I can't see the top of the lentil
from the attic, though, There appears to be some horizontal wood down
the wall above the lentil blocking it's view. But everything I can see
as far down the wall as I can see is all dry, as well as the roof and
attic insulation.

*** What about this?
On the exterior wall where this window is we can see some type of
horizontal "joint" that stretches the width of the house, about 8 feet
up. We think it's either some type of expansion joint or perhaps a weep
screed, but I've not heard of weep screeps up that high. In any event,
It seem that this joint might allow enough water to enter behind the
stucco and (somehow) into the block, but we can't be sure. There must
be a lot of water pooling in the hollow block above the lentil because
it is dripping at a very fast pace. If you wipe it away it starts
streaming again immediately. I event tried squishing rubber silicone
sealant onto the holes in the mortar (from the inside) just to
temporarily plug the entry point, but the water seeped either through it
or around it and still came in at the same pace. It must be a lot of
water in there!

We looked for stucco cracks and saw a few "hairline" (at best) cracks
running vertically above the "joint" for about 3 ft. in length, but I
wasn't sure that such a fine hairline crack would let enough water in to
let it get inside the block and drip out like a fast-dripping faucet.

I was half-temped to drill into the block above the lentil just to see
if it drains out and see how much water is in there, but I won't dare
for fear of making the problem worse! g

Can anyone think of what might cause this much water to get inside the
block such that it is seeping into the house through the mortar? I've
heard it's normal for some water to get behind the stucco, but I thought
it was supposed to run down the outside of a water barrier and then out
the weep screed (which I thought was at the bottom of the wall). Is it
normal for water to get inside the conrete blocks that make up the wall?
If so where should this water go when it hits a solid lentil? I'd
greatly appreciate any ideas anyone might have as to why something like
this might happen.

Thanks,
-- Vinnie

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