Hello all

I have a dedicated 20 amp circuit that feeds 4 outdoor recepticals spaced
around my yard. There is probably a total of 300 feet of 12 AWG Romax
underground wire used, burried about a foot deep in our (very) sandy soil.
This setup has been working fine for years, until the other day when the
circuit breaker popped. We reset it, and things were fine until the middle
of the next night...I thought we had a power failure... turns out the
circuit breaker popped again, along with the upline main breaker that has
all the 110v stuff going through it for the whole house. The only time I've
ever seen this upline breaker go was when we had a lightning strike a few
years back. Since then, the upline breaker has not popped again, but the 20
amp breaker pops about once every 24 hours. When the breaker is reset,
things appear normal. A clamp on AC ammeter shown 0 amps when nothing is
plugged in, and reads correctly (4 amp) when the normal load is connected (a
couple of pond pumps that run 24-7). I've checkec the voltage at all the
outlets with a volt meter and all looks fine. I even swapped the circuit
breaker with another thinking maybe it was just a bad breaker.

Anyone got an idea of what could be going on? I'm stumped.

Thanks

Dan

Dan Kuechle wrote:
Hello all

I have a dedicated 20 amp circuit that feeds 4 outdoor recepticals
spaced around my yard. There is probably a total of 300 feet of 12
AWG Romax underground wire used, burried about a foot deep in our
(very) sandy soil. This setup has been working fine for years, until
the other day when the circuit breaker popped. We reset it, and
things were fine until the middle of the next night...I thought we
had a power failure... turns out the circuit breaker popped again,
along with the upline main breaker that has all the 110v stuff going
through it for the whole house. The only time I've ever seen this
upline breaker go was when we had a lightning strike a few years
back. Since then, the upline breaker has not popped again, but the
20 amp breaker pops about once every 24 hours. When the breaker is
reset, things appear normal. A clamp on AC ammeter shown 0 amps when
nothing is plugged in, and reads correctly (4 amp) when the normal
load is connected (a couple of pond pumps that run 24-7). I've
checkec the voltage at all the outlets with a volt meter and all
looks fine. I even swapped the circuit breaker with another thinking
maybe it was just a bad breaker.

Anyone got an idea of what could be going on? I'm stumped.

Thanks

Dan

I assume by Romax (sic) you mean NM / NMW non-metallic wire rated for
direct burial?

Is it a GFI breaker? It should be, if it feeds an outside circuit. The
breaker may be tripping because of a small current leak caused by
degraded or damaged undergroup wire. However, if you swapped it with a
non-GFI breaker (it sounds like you did) and still have the same
problem, then it may be something else.

If it is fairly regular, is there an event that happens that may trigger it
such as sprinklers coming on, or maybe an hour after they come on?

Wayne


"Dan Kuechle" wrote in message
. ..
Hello all

I have a dedicated 20 amp circuit that feeds 4 outdoor recepticals spaced
around my yard. There is probably a total of 300 feet of 12 AWG Romax
underground wire used, burried about a foot deep in our (very) sandy soil.
This setup has been working fine for years, until the other day when the
circuit breaker popped. We reset it, and things were fine until the
middle
of the next night...I thought we had a power failure... turns out the
circuit breaker popped again, along with the upline main breaker that has
all the 110v stuff going through it for the whole house. The only time
I've
ever seen this upline breaker go was when we had a lightning strike a few
years back. Since then, the upline breaker has not popped again, but the
20
amp breaker pops about once every 24 hours. When the breaker is reset,
things appear normal. A clamp on AC ammeter shown 0 amps when nothing is
plugged in, and reads correctly (4 amp) when the normal load is connected
(a
couple of pond pumps that run 24-7). I've checkec the voltage at all the
outlets with a volt meter and all looks fine. I even swapped the circuit
breaker with another thinking maybe it was just a bad breaker.

Anyone got an idea of what could be going on? I'm stumped.

Thanks

Dan

Outdoor receptacles and pond pumps gives me a clue that your problem may be
with water. I suggest opening up each receptacle to inspect their condition
and to see if any water has come in contact with the wiring. Look for any
indication of burning or charring on the receptacles. Water is a conductor
which will allow current to flow and usually not enough to trip a circuit
breaker immediately, but enough to burn up wiring devices.

When you get this problem resolved you should change the circuit breaker to
a GFI type. That will provide better protection for human life. It is also
required by the National Electrical Code for direct buried residential
wiring 12" deep. The downside of installing a GFI circuit breaker is that
it will cause more nuisance tripping. If your wiring was 18" or deeper the
code permits GFI receptacles which tend to experience less nuisance
tripping.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv




"Dan Kuechle" wrote in message
. ..
Hello all

I have a dedicated 20 amp circuit that feeds 4 outdoor recepticals spaced
around my yard. There is probably a total of 300 feet of 12 AWG Romax
underground wire used, burried about a foot deep in our (very) sandy soil.
This setup has been working fine for years, until the other day when the
circuit breaker popped. We reset it, and things were fine until the
middle
of the next night...I thought we had a power failure... turns out the
circuit breaker popped again, along with the upline main breaker that has
all the 110v stuff going through it for the whole house. The only time
I've
ever seen this upline breaker go was when we had a lightning strike a few
years back. Since then, the upline breaker has not popped again, but the
20
amp breaker pops about once every 24 hours. When the breaker is reset,
things appear normal. A clamp on AC ammeter shown 0 amps when nothing is
plugged in, and reads correctly (4 amp) when the normal load is connected
(a
couple of pond pumps that run 24-7). I've checkec the voltage at all the
outlets with a volt meter and all looks fine. I even swapped the circuit
breaker with another thinking maybe it was just a bad breaker.

Anyone got an idea of what could be going on? I'm stumped.

Thanks

Dan

wrote:

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 10:07:51 -0500, "Dan Kuechle"
wrote:

Anyone got an idea of what could be going on? I'm stumped.

Yep, you got an electrical problem. Call a licensed plumber.

Call a what? Now that's funny
Why not call a licensed house painter or automobile mechanic to fix
electrical problems.

Too bad we can't edit our typos.

"chevelless" wrote in message
...


wrote:

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 10:07:51 -0500, "Dan Kuechle"
wrote:

Anyone got an idea of what could be going on? I'm stumped.

Yep, you got an electrical problem. Call a licensed plumber.

Call a what? Now that's funny
Why not call a licensed house painter or automobile mechanic to fix
electrical problems.

Too bad we can't edit our typos.

Ah! Mr. chevelless does not recognize sarcasm......

Yeah right


Red Neckerson wrote:

"chevelless" wrote in message
...


wrote:

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 10:07:51 -0500, "Dan Kuechle"
wrote:

Anyone got an idea of what could be going on? I'm stumped.

Yep, you got an electrical problem. Call a licensed plumber.

Call a what? Now that's funny
Why not call a licensed house painter or automobile mechanic to fix
electrical problems.

Too bad we can't edit our typos.

Ah! Mr. chevelless does not recognize sarcasm......

I just had a similar problem where a wore
electric wire to the outside AC box was
shorting out and taking its 30 amp breaker
out as well as the 100 amp breaker.
Would only happen once in a while and
made tracing difficult.

According to bitzah bitzah@invalid:
On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 10:07:51 -0500, "Dan Kuechle"
wrote:

I have a dedicated 20 amp circuit that feeds 4 outdoor recepticals spaced
around my yard. There is probably a total of 300 feet of 12 AWG Romax
underground wire used, burried about a foot deep in our (very) sandy soil.
This setup has been working fine for years, until the other day when the
circuit breaker popped. We reset it, and things were fine until the middle

I am going to go with ground water rising as a first choice.

A trifle unlikely for tripping a 20A breaker. But...

But check these other two for 'strange events' that I have had to
investigate in the past.
An old house which was originally wired in VRI (a rubber based
insul) and 'modernised' with CB's and RCD's (I think equivalent
to those GFI devices that USA guys mention) kept having 'ghost
trips' of a CB . Turned out it was the cable stretched over a gal
iron water pipe that was being stressed as the house moved from
AM to PM on +30°C days.

Given that the OP's situation seems very simple with nothing exotic,
a temperature dependency like you suggest and a very worn cable sheath
seems most likely to me.

Ie: when you install a buried cable, where it exits the house
(or enters receptacle "standards" buried in the yard), there should
be a few inches of slack. Ie: a small loop of cable before
penetrating the house foundation.

If you don't provide such slack, repeated expansion/contraction cycles
could cause the cable insulation to degrade (ie: pressure from the rim
of the hole in the concrete), and the conductors touch at certain times of
day.

That said, I'm going to throw out another - do you have any groundhogs
or squirrels digging holes nearby? Could be something like a a chewed
chunk of cable shorting periodically (due to temperature cycling, or
another animal brushing the cable nearby on their nightly rounds).

And another: a wire inside a receptacle so close to shorting that
temperature cycling (or brushing past by above animal ;-) causes it
to ground short.

I'd start with killing the power, and inspecting the inside of every
box on the circuit very carefully. Then, if that doesn't yield anything,
carefully dig out where the circuit exits the house and check the
condition of the cable.

In any event, I believe you should be changing the circuit over to GFCI
protection (breaker or upstream outlet). The circuit is already dubious,
and the GFCI will probably help you find the problem faster while making
it safer in the meanwhile.

And of course, the breaker may simply be just about kaput.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.