Here is some additional information regarding my original message and
the questions that it has brought up:

* The 3000 estimate, was actually a quote. My mistake when writing the
post.
* I've cross posted this to alt.home.repair, and any future questions
not in this thread will go there.
* I'm trying to determine the parts/labor breakdown for reasons
described below
* I realize there are going to be quotes that are too low($1200), and
too high($5000). My goal here is to improve my gut feeling on the
range so I can find and pay the right price for the job to be done
right.
* It's Olympian on York's website, I'll ask about Lattitude, and make
sure that's specified in the quote.
* 131 lbs up 4 flights of stairs should NOT be that hard. If that's
the reason behind a 500$+ jump in the quote, I'll hire some movers who
will carry it up for $20 and a case of beer each. It weighs much less
than some of the furniture I have, and that wasn't a problem.
* Folks that are super secretive ("None of your ****ing business") on
the rough wholesale/retail price of the equipment they're installing
don't give me a good vibe. I understand there is a markup and labor
costs to figure in. I'll pay 3k if that's the fair price for a
quality job. I shouldn't have to deal with a quote for a 70% profit
on the same quality job.
* I never said that I was a tenant.
* The coils & blower are in a location that would involve removing a
ceiling to access (beyond a filter change). So changing that out
would involve ~500-1000 worth of contracting work to rip out, and
later replace & paint the ceiling. Given it's my kitchen ceiling, I'd
prefer not to do that.

Further information.... There are 6 appartments in my building, all
with 17 year old heat pumps in dire condition (2 dead, 4 dying). All
1.5 ton York units. The other quote I wanted, and should receive from
the same guy at some point this week is for a replacement of all 6
heat pumps. I would figure a 6 unit install would have a lower markup
per unit (say 20% each instead of 30%) and a reduced per unit labor
due to the economies of scale. So if one unit was 2500, maybe (I said
maybe please don't flame me on this) the whole thing would be 12,000
(6x2000). I'd figure it would be a day job to do all 6, vs probably 3
or so hours to do 1, and they'd only have to drive out once, carry the
tools to the roof once, and so on. The building's association would
be paying for the job, so there is very little payment risk on the
job.

One last question.. My power company is offering a rebate for high
efficiency heat pumps.. $300 for a 12 SEER, or $500 for a 14 SEER.
Can I upgrade the Heat pump to a higher SEER without changing the
inside coils (I was told no, that my coils were 10 SEER which I can't
verify)? And how much more does (should, roughly) the 14 Seer
Lattitude/Olympian cost than the 10? 12 vs 10? Should the labor be
the same?

Alright, one more.. Do I have to go York if I don't want to change
the inside coils? I'm assuming "Yes", or "I better", but I've assumed
wrong, so why not ask.

Thanks for your help, both public and private.
Peter

(Peter Drier) wrote in message om...
I just received an estimate to replace the heat pump for my apartment.
The evaporator coils, blower, and electric (emergency) heater,
thermostat, and infrastructure would all stay the same. Only the heat
pump, and freon would be changed out.

Significant bits of the quote:

Installation of 1 x 1.5 ton 10 seer heat pump condensing unit
Parts: Disposal, suction dryer, nitrogen, Box, whip, fuses, delivery,
filters, copper pipe, fittings
Warrantee - 5 year compressor, 5 year parts, 6 months labor/delivery

Total is $2937.. 1937 up front, 1000 upon completion.

The existing system is a York circa 1987, and the guy giving me the
quote is the only York dealer in my county. I pulled up the York
website while he was at my apt, and he said the replacement would be
their Olympian 10, 1.5 ton unit.

Having done my homework to a decent extent, I've seen other quotes for
1.5 ton 10 SEER heat pump replacement jobs in the $1200-1500 range, so
this ~$3k quote threw me.

The only real trick to this install should be the fact it's a 4 story
walkup, and the heat pump lives above the 4th story. So it will need
to be carried up 4 flights of stairs, and then up a ladder. This unit
weighs in at 131 lbs, so this isn't an unreasonable feat.

This is in Hoboken NJ, just outside Manhattan if the area matters
much.

Does anyone have an opinion on this cost? Any idea what the dealer's
cost is for the Olympian 10-1.5 ton, roughly? Any tactics on getting
a lower cost/counter offering? In the end, I'll pay what I should,
but I can't stand getting ripped off (or people who attempt to)
because I look fairly young.

and as for the parts section (copied directly from the quote), any
idea what the "Box", "whip", and "filters" are for? I can make a
guess on the filters one, but the others? should he be being more
specific?

Thanks,
Peter

20$ and a case of beer to move it up 4 flights I will take the job but
the beer and the 20 cash first Pleeeease. Thats a joke , both ways.

I just had a 3000 AO Smith Cyclone water heater moved into a basement ,
on the stairs , well it took 4 Pros 10 hrs to get it 70 Feet. And I
helped so there was no BS laziness. Uh your movers break it , Who gonna
cover it,, You of course. And your moving price well it really is a
joke , as is the way you are aproaching this.

Really, get bids , get refrences. People cheap are outta work and may
be hacks. Sometimes its pay now or pay to fix it later. Go with
qualified competant contractors you feel good about.

Parts Labor breakdown , well you dont have a clue , still. Again get
Qualified bids and stop second guessing everyone. There is always
cheap , there isnt always good.

"Peter Drier" wrote in message
om...
Here is some additional information regarding my original message and
the questions that it has brought up:

* The 3000 estimate, was actually a quote. My mistake when writing the
post.
* I've cross posted this to alt.home.repair, and any future questions
not in this thread will go there.
* I'm trying to determine the parts/labor breakdown for reasons
described below

You will and should find that contractors are not willing nor obligated to
relay to you the job cost. Many factors that are not 100% related to your
job are figured into overhead for legitimate businesses such as worker's
compensation insurance, general liability insurance, office personnel, and
of course that magic profit. I don't ask what the mark-up is on a cup of
coffee at Starbucks and I'm sure you would stand slack-jawed if you knew.

* I realize there are going to be quotes that are too low($1200), and
too high($5000). My goal here is to improve my gut feeling on the
range so I can find and pay the right price for the job to be done
right.
* It's Olympian on York's website, I'll ask about Lattitude, and make
sure that's specified in the quote.
* 131 lbs up 4 flights of stairs should NOT be that hard. If that's
the reason behind a 500$+ jump in the quote, I'll hire some movers who
will carry it up for $20 and a case of beer each. It weighs much less
than some of the furniture I have, and that wasn't a problem.

A comment like that said in a derogative way to me on site would result in
my leaving your jobsite. I understand your frustration but it's not the
installer's fault that it's 4 stories up. Remember that reputable companies
do value your business but there are many more folks waiting on them to
arrive.

* Folks that are super secretive ("None of your ****ing business") on
the rough wholesale/retail price of the equipment they're installing
don't give me a good vibe. I understand there is a markup and labor
costs to figure in. I'll pay 3k if that's the fair price for a
quality job. I shouldn't have to deal with a quote for a 70% profit
on the same quality job.

That's just a direct way of telling you the truth. If you are not
comfortable with the job, by all means, don't agree on anything. Find a
contractor that you are confident with and can do business with. Your
problems stem from your perceived value of the job, which is low. This is
not your fault, but most likely the fault of the contractor who did not
fully explain the aspects of his bid and make you aware of the value
received from a properly installed job.

* I never said that I was a tenant.
* The coils & blower are in a location that would involve removing a
ceiling to access (beyond a filter change). So changing that out
would involve ~500-1000 worth of contracting work to rip out, and
later replace & paint the ceiling. Given it's my kitchen ceiling, I'd
prefer not to do that.

That's your preference but it's definite that you could not upgrade the SEER
rating properly without updating your air handler.


Further information.... There are 6 appartments in my building, all
with 17 year old heat pumps in dire condition (2 dead, 4 dying). All
1.5 ton York units. The other quote I wanted, and should receive from
the same guy at some point this week is for a replacement of all 6
heat pumps. I would figure a 6 unit install would have a lower markup
per unit (say 20% each instead of 30%) and a reduced per unit labor
due to the economies of scale. So if one unit was 2500, maybe (I said
maybe please don't flame me on this) the whole thing would be 12,000
(6x2000). I'd figure it would be a day job to do all 6, vs probably 3
or so hours to do 1, and they'd only have to drive out once, carry the
tools to the roof once, and so on. The building's association would
be paying for the job, so there is very little payment risk on the
job.

You would most likely be able to get a contract price for replacement of a
quantity of units at a slightly lower margin than the single job. I must,
however, take exception with your assessment that it's a one day job, simple
to do, go to the roof once, and so on. I would also say that the payment
risk is to be determined on a local assessment, I've certainly seen
multi-million dollar companies that had poor accounts payable abilities.


One last question.. My power company is offering a rebate for high
efficiency heat pumps.. $300 for a 12 SEER, or $500 for a 14 SEER.
Can I upgrade the Heat pump to a higher SEER without changing the
inside coils (I was told no, that my coils were 10 SEER which I can't
verify)? And how much more does (should, roughly) the 14 Seer
Lattitude/Olympian cost than the 10? 12 vs 10? Should the labor be
the same?

Correct. No complete system, no rebate.


Alright, one more.. Do I have to go York if I don't want to change
the inside coils? I'm assuming "Yes", or "I better", but I've assumed
wrong, so why not ask.

No, pick a contractor. York is fine, as are many others. Your building
won't burn down if you aren't using the same brand unit inside and out. It
might burn down if Davey installs it or possibly if it's a Goodman. ;-)

- Robert


Thanks for your help, both public and private.
Peter

(Peter Drier) wrote in message
om...
I just received an estimate to replace the heat pump for my apartment.
The evaporator coils, blower, and electric (emergency) heater,
thermostat, and infrastructure would all stay the same. Only the heat
pump, and freon would be changed out.

Significant bits of the quote:

Installation of 1 x 1.5 ton 10 seer heat pump condensing unit
Parts: Disposal, suction dryer, nitrogen, Box, whip, fuses, delivery,
filters, copper pipe, fittings
Warrantee - 5 year compressor, 5 year parts, 6 months labor/delivery

Total is $2937.. 1937 up front, 1000 upon completion.

The existing system is a York circa 1987, and the guy giving me the
quote is the only York dealer in my county. I pulled up the York
website while he was at my apt, and he said the replacement would be
their Olympian 10, 1.5 ton unit.

Having done my homework to a decent extent, I've seen other quotes for
1.5 ton 10 SEER heat pump replacement jobs in the $1200-1500 range, so
this ~$3k quote threw me.

The only real trick to this install should be the fact it's a 4 story
walkup, and the heat pump lives above the 4th story. So it will need
to be carried up 4 flights of stairs, and then up a ladder. This unit
weighs in at 131 lbs, so this isn't an unreasonable feat.

This is in Hoboken NJ, just outside Manhattan if the area matters
much.

Does anyone have an opinion on this cost? Any idea what the dealer's
cost is for the Olympian 10-1.5 ton, roughly? Any tactics on getting
a lower cost/counter offering? In the end, I'll pay what I should,
but I can't stand getting ripped off (or people who attempt to)
because I look fairly young.

and as for the parts section (copied directly from the quote), any
idea what the "Box", "whip", and "filters" are for? I can make a
guess on the filters one, but the others? should he be being more
specific?

Thanks,
Peter

On 22 Jun 2004 08:24:43 -0700, (Peter Drier) wrote:

Here is some additional information regarding my original message and
the questions that it has brought up:

* The 3000 estimate, was actually a quote. My mistake when writing the
post.
* I've cross posted this to alt.home.repair, and any future questions
not in this thread will go there.
* I'm trying to determine the parts/labor breakdown for reasons
described below

It's none of your business. The quote is ' equipment,
installed'. If you don't like that, go elsewhere. This is not the
local flea market on Sunday afternoon, where you barter for
everything.

* I realize there are going to be quotes that are too low($1200), and
too high($5000). My goal here is to improve my gut feeling on the
range so I can find and pay the right price for the job to be done
right.

Then you get bids until you get one you like.

* It's Olympian on York's website, I'll ask about Lattitude, and make
sure that's specified in the quote.
* 131 lbs up 4 flights of stairs should NOT be that hard. If that's
the reason behind a 500$+ jump in the quote, I'll hire some movers who
will carry it up for $20 and a case of beer each. It weighs much less
than some of the furniture I have, and that wasn't a problem.

As Steve said, you can go **** yourself with that crap. You
thnk it's so ****ing easy, carry it yourself. I'll give you a $ 50
discount off the job, you take all liability for the unit from the
moment you or your beer-buddies from under the bridge touch it. Your
warranty just went to Florida to retire, and forgot to leave a
forwarding address

* Folks that are super secretive ("None of your ****ing business") on
the rough wholesale/retail price of the equipment they're installing
don't give me a good vibe. I understand there is a markup and labor

Stay out of every store you've ever been in , then, and stay
away from every contractor you're ever dealt with, because none of
them, **NONE OF THEM** are going to give you that information. Those
that claim to are lying to you about it.

costs to figure in. I'll pay 3k if that's the fair price for a
quality job. I shouldn't have to deal with a quote for a 70% profit
on the same quality job.

You'll pay what the **** the quote says, or you'll head your
cheap ass on down the road. It's not a debate, it's a yes or no
proposition. Deal with it. Sign it or get lost.

* I never said that I was a tenant.
* The coils & blower are in a location that would involve removing a
ceiling to access (beyond a filter change). So changing that out
would involve ~500-1000 worth of contracting work to rip out, and
later replace & paint the ceiling. Given it's my kitchen ceiling, I'd
prefer not to do that.

Then don't. It's your house, your money, and no one is trying
to pretend they get to give you orders.


Further information.... There are 6 appartments in my building, all
with 17 year old heat pumps in dire condition (2 dead, 4 dying). All
1.5 ton York units. The other quote I wanted, and should receive from
the same guy at some point this week is for a replacement of all 6
heat pumps. I would figure a 6 unit install would have a lower markup
per unit (say 20% each instead of 30%) and a reduced per unit labor
due to the economies of scale. So if one unit was 2500, maybe (I said

He would be glad to give you his price, I'm sure. Then you
get to decide whether or not to accept it, and sign. How he arrives
at his numbers is none of your business. Your only choice is 'sign or
don't sign'. If you think the price is too high, I suggest you not
sign, go elsewhere, find someone else. It's that simple.

maybe please don't flame me on this) the whole thing would be 12,000
(6x2000).

You are on ****ing drugs. Bad drugs. You want 6 units,
installed, for $ 12,000 ???

I'd figure it would be a day job to do all 6, vs probably 3
or so hours to do 1, and they'd only have to drive out once, carry the

You ****ing idiot. You think it takes an hour to install an
HVAC system and start it up ? Bull****, and you know it. you're just
a cheap-assed ****wit. God help the poor guy that ends up doing your
work Even though he's going to be the cheapest hack in town, I pity
him.

tools to the roof once, and so on. The building's association would

You have no ****ing clue. You don't have the faintest glimmer
of an understanding of what's involved.

What you want is some local unlicensed side-job hack that will
agree to install whatever equipment you buy over the Internet for $
100 and a case of beer. Go for it, but don't waste the time of
legitimate companies and contractors, and don't waste our time here.

be paying for the job, so there is very little payment risk on the
job.

The evaluation is also not up to you. It's not your company
doing the work.

One last question.. My power company is offering a rebate for high
efficiency heat pumps.. $300 for a 12 SEER, or $500 for a 14 SEER.
Can I upgrade the Heat pump to a higher SEER without changing the

No.

inside coils (I was told no, that my coils were 10 SEER which I can't
verify)? And how much more does (should, roughly) the 14 Seer
Lattitude/Olympian cost than the 10? 12 vs 10? Should the labor be
the same?

Ask your contractor.



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

"Peter Drier" wrote in message
om...
Here is some additional information regarding my original message and
the questions that it has brought up:

* The 3000 estimate, was actually a quote. My mistake when writing the
post.

Quotes can go down, but not more than 2% up...or not..depending on the local
laws in your area..

* I've cross posted this to alt.home.repair, and any future questions
not in this thread will go there.

Now..THATS gonna help...

sarcasm mode off...


* I'm trying to determine the parts/labor breakdown for reasons
described below
* I realize there are going to be quotes that are too low($1200), and
too high($5000). My goal here is to improve my gut feeling on the
range so I can find and pay the right price for the job to be done
right.

In other words, you want to know what it costs the contractor...

* It's Olympian on York's website, I'll ask about Lattitude, and make
sure that's specified in the quote.

I told you how to tell...Lattitude is dark platnium, and Olympian is desert
tan...it really wont make a damn, since all they changed was the name, and
the color...its identical....all you will get if its dark, is a brand
spankin new right off the line unit..


* 131 lbs up 4 flights of stairs should NOT be that hard.

Oh..**** you. Yea..I said it...**** you, and anyone that wants to tell me
that. Foul mouth? Tough ****. I had a guy today tell me that getting his new
12 SEER unit installed would be a piece of cake...suuuuuure.....
It was...if you include the fact that some ****tard spliced the thermostat
wires to the point on the original unit that we just gave the hell up, and
pulled a new wire..
Easy? Sure...took almost 2 hours for 30 feet of wire...real damn easy..
Then, there was the getting the new unit, in where an old Ruud
went...oh...it was SOOOOO simple....
If I find the son of a bitch that originally installed the Ruud, I will
break his fingers.....slowly..



If that's
the reason behind a 500$+ jump in the quote, I'll hire some movers who
will carry it up for $20 and a case of beer each.

You would be finding a new contractor as well....since the moment you touch
it, its yours..I mean...you pay me now, minus labor, and kiss my ass, since
until WE install the unit, and declare it sound, if anyone else moves it, I
void the warranty, and yes...I can indeed do that..one phone call, and you
own a boat anchor..


It weighs much less
than some of the furniture I have,

It sure does. It sure as hell does. And you know what? If I had to put my
refrigerator on the roof 4 flights up, I would hire a crane for it too....if
I had to move my computer desk onto a roof, I would hire a crane for that
too..
There is a RIGHT way, that solves any issues that you might get, like your
crackhead friends slipping and dropping a unit that is not covered for
damage in ANY way shape or form from York, unless its damaged when it gets
to the warehouse, and since they check them...well.....taking one back with
a crushed coil wont fly.


and that wasn't a problem.

Goodie. You didnt move your furniture to the freaking roof....


* Folks that are super secretive ("None of your ****ing business") on
the rough wholesale/retail price of the equipment they're installing
don't give me a good vibe.

Let me put it another way....
Tough ****ing ****.
Would you feel better if I told you that I can buy the unit for $1, and its
gonna cost you $2999.00 to install it?
Would you feel better if I told you that I can buy the unit for $2999.00 and
its gonna cost you $1 to install it?

Would you feel even better if I did this:

Unit: $1999.00
Labor: free
Insurance: $200.00
Gas: $10
Advertising: $200
Taxes: $150
Licence: $75
Liability Insurance: $25
Workers Comp: $45
Tires, and oil for truck: $10
Insurance for vehicle: $10
Tools to install job, wear and tear: $10
Misc parts needed to install unit: $100
Lawyers: $25
Future maint on trucks: $40
Overhead, including water, lights, insurance, buildings, vans, employees,
etc....not listed above $400

What we put in our pockets, contrary to popular belief, is spent normally
before you call us. Get a damn grip..Do you walk into your local Starbucks
and ask them to break down a cup of overpriced, ****ty coffee? Of COURSE
not. Do you call your electric utility and ask them to break down the charge
for you, right down the employee pay? Of course not.
Its none of your business what the unit costs the contractor, and this is a
fact of this neat little thing called free trade.


I understand there is a markup and labor
costs to figure in. I'll pay 3k if that's the fair price for a
quality job. I shouldn't have to deal with a quote for a 70% profit
on the same quality job.

LOL...but you are willing to pay an easy 500% markup on a cup of coffee?????

* I never said that I was a tenant.

Sure act like one...

* The coils & blower are in a location that would involve removing a
ceiling to access (beyond a filter change). So changing that out
would involve ~500-1000 worth of contracting work to rip out, and
later replace & paint the ceiling. Given it's my kitchen ceiling, I'd
prefer not to do that.

Given that you wont get near the rated SEER with ANY unit you put in, it
might be a case of too bad, so sad.
You now will have to pay for the original contractor that built the
buildings screw up and thats not leaving an access point to remove old
equipment when it is past its time. BTW...IF you do opt for a complete,
fully working system, then current code states you have to put in an
access...period.


Further information.... There are 6 appartments in my building, all
with 17 year old heat pumps in dire condition (2 dead, 4 dying). All
1.5 ton York units. The other quote I wanted, and should receive from
the same guy at some point this week is for a replacement of all 6
heat pumps. I would figure a 6 unit install would have a lower markup
per unit (say 20% each instead of 30%) and a reduced per unit labor
due to the economies of scale. So if one unit was 2500, maybe (I said
maybe please don't flame me on this) the whole thing would be 12,000
(6x2000). I'd figure it would be a day job to do all 6, vs probably 3
or so hours to do 1, and they'd only have to drive out once, carry the
tools to the roof once, and so on. The building's association would
be paying for the job, so there is very little payment risk on the
job.

6 units, 4 stories up...and you want it for 12 grand?
BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHA

Ok...really....get serious.

I just did 4 units, 1.5 ton Yorks, ground level, apartments, section 8
housing as a matter of fact...and I was the low bid..well...next to the low
bid..the low bidder was a Lennox guy that really didnt give a **** one way
or the other, and neither did I...
care to guess what the low bid was?
Oh..they got new air handlers too...heat strips, and some minor duct
mods...new thermostats....and drains.
BEFORE the electrican got his bill in, it was over $11,000.
That was the LOW bid. That was not MY bid. The high bid was over
$17,000....you go figure...



One last question.. My power company is offering a rebate for high
efficiency heat pumps.. $300 for a 12 SEER, or $500 for a 14 SEER.

Thats all? Sheesh....the guy that is getting two 12 SEER units in tomorrow
is getting $450 each back from the electric co-op, and $75 each from York...
He DID tell you about the current rebate program in effect right???


Can I upgrade the Heat pump to a higher SEER without changing the
inside coils (I was told no, that my coils were 10 SEER which I can't
verify)?

No.
You cant. York requires a metering device change out, a higher CFM fan, and
a larger coil for 12 SEER, meaing, you would have a min of a 2 ton air
handler with a change out of the orifice.

As far as verification of the unit...all you have to do, is post the model
and the serial numbers on the unit, the air handler that is, and I will
gladly tell you for FREE..(GASP!) what unit they are, and what they are
rated at.

And how much more does (should, roughly) the 14 Seer
Lattitude/Olympian cost than the 10?

Minimum of $1300....additional.

12 vs 10? Should the labor be
the same?

About $600..labor is more intensive since you are going to be changing out
the air handler to do either...and should be doing that now anyway...


Alright, one more.. Do I have to go York if I don't want to change
the inside coils? I'm assuming "Yes", or "I better", but I've assumed
wrong, so why not ask.

No..you can do anything you want. You have a York airhandler, and if it is
an FRP series, then you have a unit that is the closest match to what you
are doing. Go Ruud/Rheem, and your lineset will be wrong, and you will have
issues. Same with Trane/American Standard IIRC.


Thanks for your help, both public and private.
Peter


If you are getting advice from Dave, or Stormin Moron...keep in mind, they
are not in the trade, and any advice you take from them, you take in the
position of a total and complete fool. Their advice has been wrong, and
dangerous, and if you cant take someone telling you in a matter of fact way
things, then tough...part of the problem with the trade now is that people
like Dave, and Chris are out there, sweet talking, making you feel good, and
raping the hell out of your wallet.
There is right, and there is correct, and there is Daves way, and God help
you if you take Chris' advice...
Of course...Chris is in your area..if you want a true, blue, leave you
hanging when its ****ed, with no warranty since it wasnt installed by a
competent dealer...use Chris...



(Peter Drier) wrote in message
om...
I just received an estimate to replace the heat pump for my apartment.
The evaporator coils, blower, and electric (emergency) heater,
thermostat, and infrastructure would all stay the same. Only the heat
pump, and freon would be changed out.

Significant bits of the quote:

Installation of 1 x 1.5 ton 10 seer heat pump condensing unit
Parts: Disposal, suction dryer, nitrogen, Box, whip, fuses, delivery,
filters, copper pipe, fittings
Warrantee - 5 year compressor, 5 year parts, 6 months labor/delivery

Total is $2937.. 1937 up front, 1000 upon completion.

The existing system is a York circa 1987, and the guy giving me the
quote is the only York dealer in my county. I pulled up the York
website while he was at my apt, and he said the replacement would be
their Olympian 10, 1.5 ton unit.

Having done my homework to a decent extent, I've seen other quotes for
1.5 ton 10 SEER heat pump replacement jobs in the $1200-1500 range, so
this ~$3k quote threw me.

The only real trick to this install should be the fact it's a 4 story
walkup, and the heat pump lives above the 4th story. So it will need
to be carried up 4 flights of stairs, and then up a ladder. This unit
weighs in at 131 lbs, so this isn't an unreasonable feat.

This is in Hoboken NJ, just outside Manhattan if the area matters
much.

Does anyone have an opinion on this cost? Any idea what the dealer's
cost is for the Olympian 10-1.5 ton, roughly? Any tactics on getting
a lower cost/counter offering? In the end, I'll pay what I should,
but I can't stand getting ripped off (or people who attempt to)
because I look fairly young.

and as for the parts section (copied directly from the quote), any
idea what the "Box", "whip", and "filters" are for? I can make a
guess on the filters one, but the others? should he be being more
specific?

Thanks,
Peter

My turn

In article , Peter
Drier wrote:

Here is some additional information regarding my original message and
the questions that it has brought up:

I never received the original memo. Please fill out the small pink
forms and resubmit. (RFP week this WHOLE WEEK..excuse me)


* The 3000 estimate, was actually a quote. My mistake when writing the
post.

Uh, yeah...thats what we do when a customer says, "How much is it gonna
cost?"

* I've cross posted this to alt.home.repair, and any future questions
not in this thread will go there.

There you go... GG...

* I'm trying to determine the parts/labor breakdown for reasons
described below
* I realize there are going to be quotes that are too low($1200), and
too high($5000). My goal here is to improve my gut feeling on the
range so I can find and pay the right price for the job to be done
right.

Your guts, skeet and **** are all tainted becuz your wallet is locked
to you ass. You honestly think $5000 is high...heh...that wouldn't
even pay for the equipment...

* It's Olympian on York's website, I'll ask about Lattitude, and make
sure that's specified in the quote.

Let teh Biddin begin. Ok you are at $2000 right now without even
knowing the tonnage or SEER. Please continue. (BTW, you need the
RFP-0033300 form to request procurement of....nevermind.)

* 131 lbs up 4 flights of stairs should NOT be that hard. If that's
the reason behind a 500$+ jump in the quote, I'll hire some movers who
will carry it up for $20 and a case of beer each. It weighs much less
than some of the furniture I have, and that wasn't a problem.

OK..my rates just went up $25/hour/flight of steps. LIke others have
said...."You ****in Hump that Unit JR.?" SO already without the unit
installed, or materials...you are around $3200.

* Folks that are super secretive ("None of your ****ing business") on
the rough wholesale/retail price of the equipment they're installing
don't give me a good vibe. I understand there is a markup and labor
costs to figure in. I'll pay 3k if that's the fair price for a
quality job. I shouldn't have to deal with a quote for a 70% profit
on the same quality job.

I totally lost you on that comment...but it ok..no charge this time,
you are still at $3300 (see I can add.)

* I never said that I was a tenant.

I never said you were.

* The coils & blower are in a location that would involve removing a
ceiling to access (beyond a filter change). So changing that out
would involve ~500-1000 worth of contracting work to rip out, and
later replace & paint the ceiling. Given it's my kitchen ceiling, I'd
prefer not to do that.

So were is it going Bob Villa? I have a saying when people ask me,
"Can you do that?" I tell them, "I'll put Air Conditioning whever you
want it"...on your motorized Rascal, Gheenoe (Florida Canoe), in the
damn doghouse for that matter. Sacifice a closet.


Further information.... There are 6 appartments in my building, all
with 17 year old heat pumps in dire condition (2 dead, 4 dying). All
1.5 ton York units. The other quote I wanted, and should receive from
the same guy at some point this week is for a replacement of all 6
heat pumps. I would figure a 6 unit install would have a lower markup
per unit (say 20% each instead of 30%) and a reduced per unit labor
due to the economies of scale. So if one unit was 2500, maybe (I said
maybe please don't flame me on this) the whole thing would be 12,000
(6x2000). I'd figure it would be a day job to do all 6, vs probably 3
or so hours to do 1, and they'd only have to drive out once, carry the
tools to the roof once, and so on. The building's association would
be paying for the job, so there is very little payment risk on the
job.

Your math is good, but mine is better. We are up to around $34,000.
But I will give you a 10% discount on the final total.



One last question.. My power company is offering a rebate for high
efficiency heat pumps.. $300 for a 12 SEER, or $500 for a 14 SEER.
Can I upgrade the Heat pump to a higher SEER without changing the
inside coils (I was told no, that my coils were 10 SEER which I can't
verify)? And how much more does (should, roughly) the 14 Seer
Lattitude/Olympian cost than the 10? 12 vs 10? Should the labor be
the same?

If you go this way...then its a complete system, matched system change
out...with new copper because your lineset maybe sized for an older
SEER rating.


Alright, one more.. Do I have to go York if I don't want to change
the inside coils? I'm assuming "Yes", or "I better", but I've assumed
wrong, so why not ask.

See above as I total your proposal. Please follow the green line for
any requests in procurement that involve light commercial facilitating.
You will need a pink and blue form...dammit...


Thanks for your help, both public and private.
Peter

Pete. If you like the HVAC guy and he seems to be catering to your
needs...then the price is right. Being comfortable in your "high-end"
appliance purchases is your right as a consumer.
Is this "outfit" working to solve my problems?
Does this "outfit" act wishy washy, pricing and FAQ's?
Will this "outfit" do it for me?

Same questions a women asks herself in a mall with a brand new credit
card. Here is some more to read just ignore Florida and the dates in
the text.
--------------------------------------------
HOW DO I CHOOSE AN AIR-CONDITIONING SYSTEM?
Selecting a central air-conditioner (AC) in Florida is an important
decision, since the air conditioning system is a home's largest energy
user. The right AC system makes a home comfortable and efficient. The
wrong one can cause discomfort, humidity and maintenance problems and
increase your utility bills.

Purchasing an AC unit is one of the largest investments - both at
purchase and in operating costs - homeowners can make in their
property. As with any major purchase, the more information you have the
better decisions you can make.


WHAT SHOULD I KNOW BEFORE I BEGIN LOOKING?
Making an informed AC equipment choice means:


* selecting a reliable, state licensed, insured, heating, ventilating
and air-conditioning (HVAC) contractor
* getting a thorough load calculation completed on your home
* purchasing an efficient, properly sized HVAC system
* choosing a thermostat that provides comfort and encourages efficient
energy use


HOW DO I SELECT AN HVAC CONTRACTOR?
When searching for a conscientious, licensed, bonded contractor always
contact your regional Better Business Bureau to make sure the
contractor you select has a satisfactory rating. The regional office
should be listed in the business white pages in your local telephone
directory.

After narrowing your choice to two to three contractors, ask the
candidates for references, and follow-up on them. The contractor you
select should complete a cooling load analysis, and a humidity load
analysis. In addition, the contractor should provide service after the
installation and an AC operation manual.


WHAT IS A COOLING LOAD ANALYSIS?
A cooling load analysis calculates how much heat enters your home in
one hour when the outdoor temperature reaches 95 degrees. This analysis
ensures that even at 95 degrees your AC capacity will be sufficient to
remove the unwanted heat.

An incomplete cooling load analysis can cause you to make a poor AC
choice. Many contractors simply estimate the cooling load and the size
of equipment you need based only on the square footage of a home. Often
this rule-of-thumb approach uses one TON of air conditioning per 500
square feet of floor area. This estimate usually results in improper
equipment size. A reputable contractor will complete a load calculation
that also includes a humidity load. If you are replacing a unit, a load
analysis should still be done by a HVAC contractor to determine if the
older unit size is really appropriate.


WHAT SHOULD THE CALCULATION CONSIDER?
Heat passes through the walls, roof, windows, and doors and is
generated by people in the home. The load calculation should consider
all of the following heat and humidity factors:


* surface area of the walls, attic, windows, and doors
* type and thickness of the insulation in the walls, attic and floors
* construction of the walls, floor and roof
* type, size, orientation and number of windows
* orientation of house
* permanent exterior shading
* occupant activities
* kitchen/bath/laundry equipment
* ventilation needs
* outdoor air infiltration
* people capacity of the home (using two persons per bedroom)

Many other factors can increase a home's humidity. Cooking, extra
people in the house, lighting, and moisture from the bath, house
plants, kitchen or laundry contribute to indoor moisture and increase
the home's cooling load.


HOW IS EQUIPMENT SIZED FOR A HOME?
Air conditioning equipment is available in many different sizes for
different types of homes. The term "size" refers to the combined
cooling capacity and dehumidification capacity. A cooling load analysis
gives the required size of the AC unit based on the largest expected
heat gain of the house. Cooling load and equipment size is expressed by
BTUH (British Thermal Units per Hour) or TONS; one TON of AC equals
12,000 BTUH.

Many contractors simply add 25 to 30 percent to the cooling load
analysis to account for humidity. In many Florida homes this shortcut
can actually increase humidity problems especially in well-insulated
homes. These homes generally have less heat entering and the moisture
load is a greater part of the total cooling load. Well-insulated homes
often have humidity levels reaching 30 to 50 percent of the total
cooling analysis. Since Florida is so humid it is necessary to have a
cooling load analysis that gives the humidity gain including moisture
from outdoor air, cooking, showers, and washing.


HOW CAN I USE THE ANALYSIS TO SELECT A UNIT?
Once the cooling load analysis is completed, the heat and moisture gain
should be compared to the heat and humidity removal capacities of other
models on the market. Different models and brands of AC equipment,
rated at the same overall capacity, can have varying moisture removal
capacities. So check both heat and moisture removal and compare to your
contractor's calculations.


WHAT EFFICIENCY IS RECOMMENDED?
The efficiency of an AC unit refers to the amount of cooling it
delivers in relation to the amount of electricity it uses. Efficiency
is expressed as SEER, or Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio. As of
January 1, 1992, the minimum allowable SEER in Florida was increased
from 8.5 to 10. AC equipment is currently available with SEERs up to 14
or 15. Higher SEERs use less electricity, but cost more initially. A
SEER 11 unit may cost $150 more than a SEER 10 unit. A good contractor
will do a life-cycle cost analysis to decide the payback period for
higher SEER units. Remember that your unit choice impacts the
environment. Choosing a unit that uses less energy, saves both money
and environmental damage.


IS SELECTING A THERMOSTAT IMPORTANT?
Yes. The thermostat controls the AC unit. For an extra $90 to $150,
your contractor can install a more accurate, programmable thermostat.
These programmable thermostats can save you money by turning the AC
setting up when no one is home. The thermostat can also lower the
setting and have the house comfortable when you return. These
electronic thermostats are usually more accurate than traditional
thermostats and the additional purchase cost is recovered in one to
three years through lower energy costs.


WHAT ELSE SHOULD I INVESTIGATE?
Warranties should be considered. Most manufacturers offer a five-year
warranty on the compressor, some offer ten years or an optional
extended warranty for an additional cost. Most differences between
brands is in the efficiency, the dehumidification capacity, the quality
of the condenser, evaporator and fan motor, and the aesthetics of the
condensing unit.

If you are considering a heat pump to maximize winter energy savings,
request: EES-102 or Energy Efficiency in Heating.

Note: For more in-depth information, request FEES Newsletter E2 & E
April 1992 from your local County Cooperative Extension office.
-----------------------------
End of line.

I could have given him a break down of every single part, material,
cleaning, time, insurance, gas, workers comp, advertisement, utility,
tooling, and equipment needed to do 1 system. Then footnote
percentages for rain delays, shipping snafu's, material markup,
customer delays (always), tardy customer payments.


(Peter Drier) wrote in message
om...
I just received an estimate to replace the heat pump for my apartment.
The evaporator coils, blower, and electric (emergency) heater,
thermostat, and infrastructure would all stay the same. Only the heat
pump, and freon would be changed out.

Significant bits of the quote:

Installation of 1 x 1.5 ton 10 seer heat pump condensing unit
Parts: Disposal, suction dryer, nitrogen, Box, whip, fuses, delivery,
filters, copper pipe, fittings
Warrantee - 5 year compressor, 5 year parts, 6 months labor/delivery

Total is $2937.. 1937 up front, 1000 upon completion.

The existing system is a York circa 1987, and the guy giving me the
quote is the only York dealer in my county. I pulled up the York
website while he was at my apt, and he said the replacement would be
their Olympian 10, 1.5 ton unit.

Having done my homework to a decent extent, I've seen other quotes for
1.5 ton 10 SEER heat pump replacement jobs in the $1200-1500 range, so
this ~$3k quote threw me.

The only real trick to this install should be the fact it's a 4 story
walkup, and the heat pump lives above the 4th story. So it will need
to be carried up 4 flights of stairs, and then up a ladder. This unit
weighs in at 131 lbs, so this isn't an unreasonable feat.

This is in Hoboken NJ, just outside Manhattan if the area matters
much.

Does anyone have an opinion on this cost? Any idea what the dealer's
cost is for the Olympian 10-1.5 ton, roughly? Any tactics on getting
a lower cost/counter offering? In the end, I'll pay what I should,
but I can't stand getting ripped off (or people who attempt to)
because I look fairly young.

and as for the parts section (copied directly from the quote), any
idea what the "Box", "whip", and "filters" are for? I can make a
guess on the filters one, but the others? should he be being more
specific?

Thanks,
Peter