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#82
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OT Renting a car?
On 26/04/2017 14:25, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/26/2017 4:19 AM, David B. wrote: On 26/04/2017 02:36, Diesel wrote: I don't like to run any of my vehicles that low on gas for any length of time because it's hard on the fuel pump to do so. Would you care to explain the logic behind that statement? I don't know if he is correct, but a lot of people would agree with that. The pump is cooled by the gas in the tank and if it gets low the pump could run hotter. http://walbrofuelpumps.com/why-fuel-pumps-fail I've read much about this topic today, Ed. I've learned a great deal too. Things have changed a great deal since I was a youngster! Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. :-) -- David B. |
#83
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OT Renting a car?
On Wed, 26 Apr 2017 10:53:57 -0500, RonNNN wrote:
In article , says... On the other hand the ethanol gets the water out right away instead of allowing it to collect in the bottom of the tank. Condensation is not as big a deal these days since tanks are not freely vented to air. They breathe through a carbon filter. That's true. When the ethanol was first introduced it caused a lot of problems until most of the water was gone from the tanks. Not only your vehicles, but the storage tanks at gas stations as well. Evap systems have helped big too. This is a constant argument among boaters. Guys say "I put a tank of E-10 in my boat and had troubles" but the people who use it all the time don't have any trouble at all. The only warning is it did attack some kinds of plastic and you definitely do not want to store it too long. As long as you buy it and burn it right away you will be fine. I am old enough to remember lots of pure gas turning to varnish and gumming up carbs. It was not a panacea |
#84
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OT Renting a car?
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#85
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OT Renting a car?
Ed Pawlowski news
Wed, 26 Apr 2017 13:25:42 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:
On 4/26/2017 4:19 AM, David B. wrote: On 26/04/2017 02:36, Diesel wrote: I don't like to run any of my vehicles that low on gas for any length of time because it's hard on the fuel pump to do so. Would you care to explain the logic behind that statement? I don't know if he is correct, but a lot of people would agree with that. The pump is cooled by the gas in the tank and if it gets low the pump could run hotter. http://walbrofuelpumps.com/why-fuel-pumps-fail Part of the pump assembly contains a sealed up electric motor that uses the fuel around it as an external source of coolant. IE: takes heat away from it. As a result, the electric motor lasts longer. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize electric motors and heat don't go well together over time. -- I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet. Please be patient. I will get to you shortly. |
#86
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OT Renting a car?
RonNNN
Wed, 26 Apr 2017 14:18:44 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote: In article , says... On 4/26/2017 4:19 AM, David B. wrote: On 26/04/2017 02:36, Diesel wrote: I don't like to run any of my vehicles that low on gas for any length of time because it's hard on the fuel pump to do so. Would you care to explain the logic behind that statement? I don't know if he is correct, but a lot of people would agree with that. The pump is cooled by the gas in the tank and if it gets low the pump could run hotter. http://walbrofuelpumps.com/why-fuel-pumps-fail In saw more in-tank pumps go bad due to clogged up fuel filters, in part because of rust caused by condensation from tanks always being run low. A full tank keeps the condensation low. Ethanol adds to the problem by mixing that rusty water in with the gasoline so the filter catches it and gets clogged up, causing the pump to have to work harder to deliver the gas. BTW, I wrote this before clacking on your link, so, sorry for being redundant! [g] Ethanol also eats away the plastic tubing found on the fuel pump, if the fuel pump is pre-ethanol days. -- I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet. Please be patient. I will get to you shortly. |
#87
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OT Renting a car?
On 4/26/2017 3:22 PM, Tekkie� wrote:
On 26-Apr-2017, wrote: Many cars no longer have a key. Now people park them in the garage under the bedroom and leave them running. A few people have been killed from it. Cite please. Don't you ever read the news? I've seen at least three reports and a bunch more it you Google it. http://www.wxyz.com/news/national/ke...rs-slow-to-act http://www.wyff4.com/article/police-...deaths/7004692 http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburb...005-story.html |
#88
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OT Renting a car?
On 4/26/2017 4:48 PM, Tekkie� wrote:
On 26-Apr-2017, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 26-Apr-2017, wrote: Many cars no longer have a key. Now people park them in the garage under the bedroom and leave them running. A few people have been killed from it. Cite please. Don't you ever read the news? I've seen at least three reports and a bunch more it you Google it. http://www.wxyz.com/news/national/ke...rs-slow-to-act http://www.wyff4.com/article/police-...deaths/7004692 http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburb...005-story.html Yeah, current stuff from 2013... My take is 3 out of how many? Age demographics. No carbon monoxide detectors. How many of keyed ignitions vs keyless? Do you have one of these vehicles? It's called accidental or suicide for a reason. Can't account for everything. There has been at least 18 deaths so far. My car will make a sound if you close the door with fob in your pocket out of the car and car running. Some people leave their keys in the car all the time. My last 3 cars have been keyless and I've survinved |
#89
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OT Renting a car?
On 4/26/17 3:22 PM, Tekkie� wrote:
On 26-Apr-2017, wrote: Many cars no longer have a key. Now people park them in the garage under the bedroom and leave them running. A few people have been killed from it. Cite please. No need, it's Darwin at work... -- If America was a tree, the liberals would root for the termites. - Greg Gutfeld |
#90
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OT Renting a car?
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 4:27:39 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
Ed Pawlowski news Wed, 26 Apr 2017 13:25:42 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote: On 4/26/2017 4:19 AM, David B. wrote: On 26/04/2017 02:36, Diesel wrote: I don't like to run any of my vehicles that low on gas for any length of time because it's hard on the fuel pump to do so. Would you care to explain the logic behind that statement? I don't know if he is correct, but a lot of people would agree with that. The pump is cooled by the gas in the tank and if it gets low the pump could run hotter. http://walbrofuelpumps.com/why-fuel-pumps-fail Part of the pump assembly contains a sealed up electric motor that uses the fuel around it as an external source of coolant. IE: takes heat away from it. As a result, the electric motor lasts longer. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize electric motors and heat don't go well together over time. It is true that "Part of the pump assembly contains a sealed up electric motor that uses the fuel around it as an external source of coolant" but that doesn't - in and of itself - mean that driving with low fuel is bad for the pump. Earlier you said: "I don't like to run any of my vehicles that low on gas for any length of time..." Well. obviously, you can't run them very long because you'll run out of gas, but that's not my point. What is your definition of "low"? Do you know at what level of fuel the cooling ability is reduced to such an extent that it is damaging the pump? Sure, a full tank can theoretically absorb more heat from the pump than a 1/4 tank, but does that amount of reduction make a difference? Does damage start to occur at 1/8 tank? 1/16? What about the ambient temperature of the fuel? Should you always run at least a half tank in the summer but a half gallon is enough in the winter? My point is that unless you know what is considered "low" for your brand of pump in your specific gas tank, your statement that "electric motors and heat don't go well together over time" may well be true but may also not be relevant in this situation. |
#91
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OT Renting a car?
On Wed, 26 Apr 2017 09:19:19 +0100, "David B."
wrote: On 26/04/2017 02:36, Diesel wrote: I don't like to run any of my vehicles that low on gas for any length of time because it's hard on the fuel pump to do so. Would you care to explain the logic behind that statement? Tank mounted fuel pumps are cooled by the fuel, and at least on some of the earlier ones, running low on fuel was blamed for shortening the life of the pumps. |
#92
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OT Renting a car?
On Wed, 26 Apr 2017 10:53:57 -0500, RonNNN wrote:
In article , says... On Wed, 26 Apr 2017 09:18:44 -0500, RonNNN wrote: In article , says... On 4/26/2017 4:19 AM, David B. wrote: On 26/04/2017 02:36, Diesel wrote: I don't like to run any of my vehicles that low on gas for any length of time because it's hard on the fuel pump to do so. Would you care to explain the logic behind that statement? I don't know if he is correct, but a lot of people would agree with that. The pump is cooled by the gas in the tank and if it gets low the pump could run hotter. http://walbrofuelpumps.com/why-fuel-pumps-fail In saw more in-tank pumps go bad due to clogged up fuel filters, in part because of rust caused by condensation from tanks always being run low. A full tank keeps the condensation low. Ethanol adds to the problem by mixing that rusty water in with the gasoline so the filter catches it and gets clogged up, causing the pump to have to work harder to deliver the gas. BTW, I wrote this before clacking on your link, so, sorry for being redundant! [g] On the other hand the ethanol gets the water out right away instead of allowing it to collect in the bottom of the tank. Condensation is not as big a deal these days since tanks are not freely vented to air. They breathe through a carbon filter. That's true. When the ethanol was first introduced it caused a lot of problems until most of the water was gone from the tanks. Not only your vehicles, but the storage tanks at gas stations as well. Evap systems have helped big too. Ethanol is sorta half OK when it's warm, but the amount of water it cam hold in suspension drops precipitously when it cools off, which can dump the water into the bottom of the tank all at once when it cools down. Called Phase separation, or Dropout. Go to start the cold vehicle and the engine gets a slug of water into the pump p- and the injectors. |
#93
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OT Renting a car?
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#94
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OT Renting a car?
On Wed, 26 Apr 2017 19:22:06 GMT, "Tekkie®"
wrote: On 26-Apr-2017, wrote: Many cars no longer have a key. Now people park them in the garage under the bedroom and leave them running. A few people have been killed from it. Cite please. I won't look it up for you, but there were several cases this last winter blamed on the car not being shut off in the garage. |
#95
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OT Renting a car?
"Tekkie®"
Wed, 26 Apr 2017 20:51:22 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote: On 26-Apr-2017, Diesel wrote: Part of the pump assembly contains a sealed up electric motor that uses the fuel around it as an external source of coolant. IE: takes heat away from it. As a result, the electric motor lasts longer. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize electric motors and heat don't go well together over time. It also means that as the fuel level drops the engine will starve and stop running. This was also debunked by a pump manufacturer as seen on MotorWeek on TV. No, it won't. The pickup is towards the bottom of the tank. Your engine might die if the pickup can't get the last drop, but, since it's a pressurized system these days, that shouldn't happen. -- I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet. Please be patient. I will get to you shortly. |
#96
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OT Renting a car?
DerbyDad03
Wed, 26 Apr 2017 23:09:45 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote: On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 4:27:39 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote: Ed Pawlowski news Wed, 26 Apr 2017 13:25:42 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote: On 4/26/2017 4:19 AM, David B. wrote: On 26/04/2017 02:36, Diesel wrote: I don't like to run any of my vehicles that low on gas for any length of time because it's hard on the fuel pump to do so. Would you care to explain the logic behind that statement? I don't know if he is correct, but a lot of people would agree with that. The pump is cooled by the gas in the tank and if it gets low the pump could run hotter. http://walbrofuelpumps.com/why-fuel-pumps-fail Part of the pump assembly contains a sealed up electric motor that uses the fuel around it as an external source of coolant. IE: takes heat away from it. As a result, the electric motor lasts longer. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize electric motors and heat don't go well together over time. It is true that "Part of the pump assembly contains a sealed up electric motor that uses the fuel around it as an external source of coolant" but that doesn't - in and of itself - mean that driving with low fuel is bad for the pump. No coolant, sealed electric motor. No way to cool off, runs hotter. Over time, causing winding insulation failure. As a result, weaker motor. As a result, weaker fuel delivery. Over time, engine may continue to start and idle, but, it won't keep running if you try to put it under load, because the fuel pressure required to do it is no longer available. You may also notice 'hard starts' as the fuel pump gets weaker, but, otherwise, your vehicle for the most part, acts normally. You may also notice lag/hesitation when you get on the gas going down the road and wrongly assume you just have bad gas. If you can rule out the bad gas and other electrical/fuel mixture issues (sensors, etc) you have the first signs of a fuel pump going down on you. Eventually leading up to a ******* of a time starting it, idling semi fine/fine, yet, won't continue running if placed under load. At this point, fuel pump is almost shot, outright. It'll get worse to the point where your ride won't even have enough pressure delivery to start it. If it's not made for ethanol, you've probably got holes in the tubes on the fuel pump assembly as ethanol loves to eat plastic. If it is, you've weakened the sealed electric motor to the point where it can no longer provide adequate fuel pressure to feed your engines demands. Been there, done that. Earlier you said: "I don't like to run any of my vehicles that low on gas for any length of time..." Well. obviously, you can't run them very long because you'll run out of gas, but that's not my point. Running them out of gas is another issue your creating for yourself, yes. Your modern fuel injection system really doesn't like it. So, if you do ****up and do this, once you put gas in the car again, don't try to start it right away. Turn the key to on and back off several times, but, don't try to start the engine just yet. Repeat cycle a few times first, put gas back into the rest of the fuel system (pushing out the air you pumped into it when you ran it bone dry), then crank the motor over. She'll start right up, first try, usually. If you just put gas in it, you might notice, it requires several cranks, and/or you have to lay on the starter for a bit to get it to fire. Why be hard on your starter and battery? Be gentle, lasts longer this way. What is your definition of "low"? Do you know at what level of fuel the cooling ability is reduced to such an extent that it is damaging the pump? Sure, a full tank can theoretically absorb more heat from the pump than a 1/4 tank, but does that amount of reduction make a difference? Does damage start to occur at 1/8 tank? 1/16? It depends entirely on tank manufacturer. Sadly. So I can't answer your question that covers every scenario here. So, for me, when I see the bugger heading towards the bottom, say 1/4th or so, I refuel it. Btw, depending on fuel tank manufacturer, it held more prior to reaching the halfway mark on your gauge. Due to the design of the tank. I know, this sounds crazy to you, but, feel free to fact check me with your favorite search engine. What about the ambient temperature of the fuel? Should you always run at least a half tank in the summer but a half gallon is enough in the winter? A half gallon on most vehicles I've seen isn't submerging the fuel pump, it's barely submerging the pickup module (if even that). Lucky for people these days though, it's a pressurized fuel system, so you can still run and won't have to do the wiggle jiggle with the steering to help the pickup module get more gas. You know, when you were running out of gas on the older ones. But, it's always a bad idea to run so low, for the reason stated already. You're hurting the electrical motor that drives the fuel pump. It's not getting any help at this point to cool it off. It prefers to be taking a swim, if you catch my drift. My point is that unless you know what is considered "low" for your brand of pump in your specific gas tank, your statement that "electric motors and heat don't go well together over time" may well be true but may also not be relevant in this situation. Nothing to do with brand of pump. Everything to do with fuel level inside said tank. Submerged pump is a happy pump. Even a partially submerged one is keeping cooler than one that isn't. -- I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet. Please be patient. I will get to you shortly. |
#97
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OT Renting a car?
"Tekkie®"
Wed, 26 Apr 2017 19:22:06 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote: On 26-Apr-2017, wrote: Many cars no longer have a key. Now people park them in the garage under the bedroom and leave them running. A few people have been killed from it. Cite please. Use a search engine for 'key fob'. They have a start/stop button. No key. Although, some actually do have a place for a real key (usually under the dash) in the event the battery in your key fob is dead OR, you misplaced the damn thing. -- I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet. Please be patient. I will get to you shortly. |
#98
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OT Renting a car?
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#99
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OT Renting a car?
On 04/26/2017 02:22 PM, Tekkie� wrote:
On 26-Apr-2017, wrote: Many cars no longer have a key. Now people park them in the garage under the bedroom and leave them running. A few people have been killed from it. Cite please. It would be possible if the engine shuts down automatically when the transmission is in Park, and restarts when put into gear. I have herd of that. I'd still expect some kind of key so someone else doesn't take your car. A key could be a combination, RF device, of even biometric. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ "If I had power over the Jews, as our princes and cities have, I would deal severely with their lying mouth." [Martin Luther,"On the Jews and Their Lies",1543] |
#100
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OT Renting a car?
On 04/26/2017 08:13 PM, Diesel wrote:
[snip] Use a search engine for 'key fob'. They have a start/stop button. No key. Although, some actually do have a place for a real key (usually under the dash) in the event the battery in your key fob is dead OR, you misplaced the damn thing. So it's a matter of differing definitions of "real". I'd consider the fob to be a key. Different from an old physical key, but just as real. The same for some people with an implanted chip. That's a key too. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ "If I had power over the Jews, as our princes and cities have, I would deal severely with their lying mouth." [Martin Luther,"On the Jews and Their Lies",1543] |
#101
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OT Renting a car?
On 4/27/2017 9:25 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 04/26/2017 02:22 PM, Tekkie� wrote: On 26-Apr-2017, wrote: Many cars no longer have a key. Now people park them in the garage under the bedroom and leave them running. A few people have been killed from it. Cite please. It would be possible if the engine shuts down automatically when the transmission is in Park, and restarts when put into gear. I have herd of that. I'd still expect some kind of key so someone else doesn't take your car. A key could be a combination, RF device, of even biometric. The fob is an RF device. No fob, no start. Not like anyone can just hop in and push the start button. My cr will also open the trunk for me if the car is locked. Just stand behind it with arms full and it opens when it detects the fob. Very handy at times. \ |
#102
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OT Renting a car?
On Thu, 27 Apr 2017 08:25:00 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote: On 04/26/2017 02:22 PM, Tekkie? wrote: On 26-Apr-2017, wrote: Many cars no longer have a key. Now people park them in the garage under the bedroom and leave them running. A few people have been killed from it. Cite please. It would be possible if the engine shuts down automatically when the transmission is in Park, and restarts when put into gear. I have herd of that. I'd still expect some kind of key so someone else doesn't take your car. A key could be a combination, RF device, of even biometric. RFID fobs are common - and commonly left in the car in locked garages. Absentmindedly leaving the fob in the car and not holding the dtart button for 10 seconds to shut it down lets it run untill the tank is smpty. Auto start-stop less of a problem as it shuts down when you walk away. |
#103
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OT Renting a car?
On Thu, 27 Apr 2017 08:32:28 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote: On 04/26/2017 08:13 PM, Diesel wrote: [snip] Use a search engine for 'key fob'. They have a start/stop button. No key. Although, some actually do have a place for a real key (usually under the dash) in the event the battery in your key fob is dead OR, you misplaced the damn thing. So it's a matter of differing definitions of "real". I'd consider the fob to be a key. Different from an old physical key, but just as real. The same for some people with an implanted chip. That's a key too. it IS a key, but not a KEY. It is required to open or start the car, but is not physically used or "actively deployed" |
#104
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OT Renting a car?
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#105
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OT Renting a car?
On Wed, 3 May 2017 19:46:45 GMT, "Tekkie®" wrote:
On 26-Apr-2017, Diesel wrote: It also means that as the fuel level drops the engine will starve and stop running. This was also debunked by a pump manufacturer as seen on MotorWeek on TV. No, it won't. The pickup is towards the bottom of the tank. Your engine might die if the pickup can't get the last drop, but, since it's a pressurized system these days, that shouldn't happen. So the fuel is still cooling the pump until it has no more fuel. I stand by my statements. eXCEPT ON THOSE WHERE THE PUMP IS NOT ONLY COOLED BY FUEL RUNNING THROUGH IT, BUT BY THE PUMP BEING FULLY SUBMERGED. |
#106
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OT Renting a car?
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#107
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OT Renting a car?
"Tekkie®" Wed, 03
May 2017 19:46:45 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote: On 26-Apr-2017, Diesel wrote: It also means that as the fuel level drops the engine will starve and stop running. This was also debunked by a pump manufacturer as seen on MotorWeek on TV. No, it won't. The pickup is towards the bottom of the tank. Your engine might die if the pickup can't get the last drop, but, since it's a pressurized system these days, that shouldn't happen. So the fuel is still cooling the pump until it has no more fuel. I stand by my statements. Umm, no. The fuel isn't cooling the pump once it's no longer submerged in it. Further, the fuel pump motor itself isn't getting much (it's negligible) cooling assistance as it pumps the fuel through, either. In fact, the less fuel you have in the tank, the hotter it is inside the tank; which doesn't help your pump in the least little bit. The pump is being cooled by your fuel WHILE IT'S SUBMERGED in your fuel. Once you reach a certain point, the pump MOTOR ITSELF is no longer submerged. You seem to think the pump itself is literally resting on the bottom of the tank, but, it's not. The pickup unit is the closest to the bottom of the tank, but it's not actually resting on the bottom of the tank, either. Thanks to modern pressurization of the fuel system it's able to get nearly every last drop without you having to do the wiggle jiggle as you begin to run out of gas. Aside from doing long term damage to the sealed electrical motor which is providing the fuel your engine needs, the pickup unit also begins to collect trash and tries to pump that to your engine, as well. Along the way, it can clog the pump assembly, your fuel lines, your injectors, too. It's really not a very nice way to treat your ride. Fortunately, enough people do treat their rides like **** so that a comfortable living can be made for others who do know WTF they're doing repairing your stuff. -- I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet. Please be patient. I will get to you shortly. |
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