On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 08:07:42 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

So, when
was the next flight that they could have put this passenger on?

2 PM the next day.

On 4/11/2017 8:41 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 08:07:42 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

So, when
was the next flight that they could have put this passenger on?

2 PM the next day.



too late for his next homosexual drug deal.

In article ,
says...

about a million dollars from the airline for over booking.

The over booking should be stopped,and if you get a ticket you should
pay for it even if you can not make the flight.

Are you willing to pay the price increase for tickets if they stop
overbooking? That's what will happen. They overbook based on experience
for that flight, so that they wind up with a plane as full as possible.
If they book to passengers scheduled, most planes will have more empty
seats and customers wind up paying for it. Plus we have the environental
waste of fuel.

I may not understand the over booking.

However if someone wants a ticket on a plane and does not show up, isn't
true he does not pay for the ticket ? If that is the case, then the
airplane looses the money for that seat if not filled by over booking.

If the people were forced to pay for the ticket even if they do not make
the flight , then the seat is paid for even if it is empty.

Wouldn't that be a way for the plane to make the same ammount of money ?

In article ,
says...



I would agree, assuming they knew they had these 4 employees all along.
It's possible that only came up after people had boarded. Once this
guy claimed he was a doctor and started bitching, they should have
asked to see his license and if he showed it, then selected another
random person. That seems like a reasonable thing that could have
avoided this mess.


If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a flight
a few days sooner. Unless he was some kind of very special doctor on
an emergency call, which would be doubtful.

In article ,
says...


I agree, this was a horrible image for the airline and this is going
to cost them big bucks before it is over although it will be settled
quietly I imagine.

I don't klnow how long it will last, but the news sid their stock
dropped by 4 % as of this morning.

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 08:18:51 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:


Does their own convenience include getting flight crews to where they
are needed for a flight? That apparently is what happened here.

The airline's failure to plan does not constitute an emergency for me.
I agree, fighting the cops was stupid but I would have made it clear,
there was someone else who would negotiate a better deal for them than
me. You do that with the gate agent, not the flight crew.
My usual settlement for a missed flight (their fault) is a nice hotel
room, a food voucher (dinner and breakfast) and 30,000-40,000 points.
The last time this happened to me in DTW, Delta picked up our room in
the Westin, right there on Concourse A, food and I got a voucher to
buy clothes since they will not give you your checked bags.
I did have a First Class ticket tho.

On 4/11/2017 10:50 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...



I would agree, assuming they knew they had these 4 employees all
along. It's possible that only came up after people had boarded.
Once this guy claimed he was a doctor and started bitching, they
should have asked to see his license and if he showed it, then
selected another random person. That seems like a reasonable thing
that could have avoided this mess.


If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a
flight a few days sooner. Unless he was some kind of very special
doctor on an emergency call, which would be doubtful.

It's rather clear that you, Ralph, have little understanding of overbooking.

Your comment that he should have planned ahead is just ignorant. He DID
plan ahead. He booked and was seated on a flight that would get him to
Louisville when he needed to be. The airline did not do the same with
their crew members. Whose planning was **** poor?

I don't care what class ticket you purchase. Fail to give notice that
you will not board that flight and try and get a refund. Ain't gonna
happen. If you DO give sufficient notice, you may get the refund AND
the airline then knows they have an extra seat. If they overbook, they
are betting that X% will be no shows or reschedule, they will keep the
money (or a large percentage of it) from that fare and still collect
another fare for the same seat.

It's just like any other form of gambling and the odds are stacked in
favor of the house.

Follow along on this little screw up by United. In the end, I suspect
that the only question that will be answered is how many zeroes will be
added to the check that United/Republic Airlines and the City of Chicago
will write.

Chicago Department of Aviation has already suspended their officer and
acknowledged that he violated procedure by the manner in which he acted.

On 4/11/2017 12:32 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 4/11/2017 10:50 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...



I would agree, assuming they knew they had these 4 employees all
along. It's possible that only came up after people had boarded.
Once this guy claimed he was a doctor and started bitching, they
should have asked to see his license and if he showed it, then
selected another random person. That seems like a reasonable thing
that could have avoided this mess.


If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a
flight a few days sooner. Unless he was some kind of very special
doctor on an emergency call, which would be doubtful.

It's rather clear that you, Ralph, have little understanding of
overbooking.

Your comment that he should have planned ahead is just ignorant. He DID
plan ahead. He booked and was seated on a flight that would get him to
Louisville when he needed to be. The airline did not do the same with
their crew members. Whose planning was **** poor?

I don't care what class ticket you purchase. Fail to give notice that
you will not board that flight and try and get a refund. Ain't gonna
happen. If you DO give sufficient notice, you may get the refund AND
the airline then knows they have an extra seat. If they overbook, they
are betting that X% will be no shows or reschedule, they will keep the
money (or a large percentage of it) from that fare and still collect
another fare for the same seat.

It's just like any other form of gambling and the odds are stacked in
favor of the house.

Follow along on this little screw up by United. In the end, I suspect
that the only question that will be answered is how many zeroes will be
added to the check that United/Republic Airlines and the City of Chicago
will write.

Chicago Department of Aviation has already suspended their officer and
acknowledged that he violated procedure by the manner in which he acted.



The guy is coming across as a dirt bag but if he was or not to get
bumped to accommodate airline employees that were not pre-ticketed does
not look good for the airline.

On 4/11/2017 10:10 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 4/11/2017 6:20 AM, Frank wrote:
On 4/11/2017 12:35 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 4/10/2017 9:23 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:15:07 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

If it was overbooked, there should have been four people standing up
looking for a seat. Musical Chairs rules should apply.

Airlines overbook every day. It ****es people off.



People don't show up for flights, so airlines overbook. They play the
statistics game and sometimes there are loosers. Just like in Musical
Chairs.

I heard it was not overbooked but the airline wanted seats for its own
employees to get to their jobs.

Story still developing so we will see how it ends. Guy said he was
important Dr. but who knows if he is telling the truth.

If airline did do it for their own convenience it will cost them a
bundle.



If that flight crew was needed to keep the schedules rolling, I am not
sure it was just "for their convenience". But, nobody should have been
boarded that might need to get bumped voluntarily or not. Do that
before the jetway.

If that were the case, why did they oversell the flight? Are they so
disorganized that they cannot foresee these things?

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 08:41:06 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

On 4/10/2017 6:38 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
One snowflake, squealing like a pig, as he is dragged from the plane as other snowflakes sit by and scream "Oh my
God"! That had to be a flight either to or from California.

Maybe the police should have taken the guy who kept saying "I have to go home" with them too.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/539284773...#sp=show-clips



"A short time after officials got him off the plane, he returned to the
cabin and ran to the back, holding onto an object and pled to let him go
home."


Great security. The cops used force, the man was bleeding. Was he
arrested, was he given medical attention, and how did he get back on
the plane? Keystone cops....

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 11:46:11 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

about a million dollars from the airline for over booking.

The over booking should be stopped,and if you get a ticket you should
pay for it even if you can not make the flight.

Are you willing to pay the price increase for tickets if they stop
overbooking? That's what will happen. They overbook based on experience
for that flight, so that they wind up with a plane as full as possible.
If they book to passengers scheduled, most planes will have more empty
seats and customers wind up paying for it. Plus we have the environental
waste of fuel.

I may not understand the over booking.

However if someone wants a ticket on a plane and does not show up, isn't
true he does not pay for the ticket ?

Depends on the airline and the ticket. If it's some deep discount carrier,
then you may wind up paying for it, with no refund and no ability to use
it in the future. If it's a major carrier like AA, UAL, etc, then usually
you can either use it for the same destination at another time or towards
another ticket, usually with some re-booking/change charge.


If that is the case, then the
airplane looses the money for that seat if not filled by over booking.

Exactly, and that's why they over book.



If the people were forced to pay for the ticket even if they do not make
the flight , then the seat is paid for even if it is empty.

Wouldn't that be a way for the plane to make the same ammount of money ?

Yes, but then a lot of customers wouldn't like that either.

On 4/11/2017 11:41 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 4/10/2017 6:38 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
One snowflake, squealing like a pig, as he is dragged from the plane
as other snowflakes sit by and scream "Oh my
God"! That had to be a flight either to or from California.

Maybe the police should have taken the guy who kept saying "I have to
go home" with them too.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/539284773...#sp=show-clips



"A short time after officials got him off the plane, he returned to the
cabin and ran to the back, holding onto an object and pled to let him go
home."


Obviously the guy is not an individual with sterling character but the
airline brought it on themselves and no question the airline will suffer
for it.

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 12:32:59 PM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 4/11/2017 10:50 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...



I would agree, assuming they knew they had these 4 employees all
along. It's possible that only came up after people had boarded.
Once this guy claimed he was a doctor and started bitching, they
should have asked to see his license and if he showed it, then
selected another random person. That seems like a reasonable thing
that could have avoided this mess.


If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a
flight a few days sooner. Unless he was some kind of very special
doctor on an emergency call, which would be doubtful.

It's rather clear that you, Ralph, have little understanding of overbooking.

Your comment that he should have planned ahead is just ignorant. He DID
plan ahead. He booked and was seated on a flight that would get him to
Louisville when he needed to be. The airline did not do the same with
their crew members. Whose planning was **** poor?

I don't think Ralph is too far off. If you really, really have to be
somewhere, then you don't plan on taking the last flight available
the day before you need to be there. For example, if you live in NYC
and are taking a cruise that leaves from LA, it's not a good idea to
take the last flight that will get you to the dock on time. Airlines
have to cancel flights occasionally due to weather, equipment problems,
crew problems, etc.

As for the airline with their crew members, we don't know the full
story. When did UAL know they had to put them on this flight?
Many times these things change dynamically. A flight crew that was
supposed to fly out of city A can't get there because their equipment
is out of service and can't fly at the last minute. Then the airline
has to scramble to find a crew that can get there to fly the plane out
of city A.




I don't care what class ticket you purchase. Fail to give notice that
you will not board that flight and try and get a refund. Ain't gonna
happen.

Obviously you don't fly much, because otherwise you'd know that this
happens all the time. Some tickets are fully refundable. Less expensive
tickets may not be, but the vast majority of those on the majors,
eg UAL, are usable for another flight, typically with a change fee.



If you DO give sufficient notice, you may get the refund AND
the airline then knows they have an extra seat. If they overbook, they
are betting that X% will be no shows or reschedule, they will keep the
money (or a large percentage of it) from that fare and still collect
another fare for the same seat.

It's just like any other form of gambling and the odds are stacked in
favor of the house.

Follow along on this little screw up by United. In the end, I suspect
that the only question that will be answered is how many zeroes will be
added to the check that United/Republic Airlines and the City of Chicago
will write.

Chicago Department of Aviation has already suspended their officer and
acknowledged that he violated procedure by the manner in which he acted.


I suppose we should have just had a hippie group therapy session
there on the tarmac with the passenger who won't obey the lawful
commands of the flight crew and those of the police? I've seen
quite a few of these in the news and have yet to see one where a
passenger disobeyed the flight crew and police and won. This was
just another self-centered jerk passenger, who didn't care if he
wound up with the whole flight cancelled.

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 12:44:31 PM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
On 4/11/2017 10:10 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 4/11/2017 6:20 AM, Frank wrote:
On 4/11/2017 12:35 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 4/10/2017 9:23 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:15:07 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

If it was overbooked, there should have been four people standing up
looking for a seat. Musical Chairs rules should apply.

Airlines overbook every day. It ****es people off.



People don't show up for flights, so airlines overbook. They play the
statistics game and sometimes there are loosers. Just like in Musical
Chairs.

I heard it was not overbooked but the airline wanted seats for its own
employees to get to their jobs.

Story still developing so we will see how it ends. Guy said he was
important Dr. but who knows if he is telling the truth.

If airline did do it for their own convenience it will cost them a
bundle.



If that flight crew was needed to keep the schedules rolling, I am not
sure it was just "for their convenience". But, nobody should have been
boarded that might need to get bumped voluntarily or not. Do that
before the jetway.

If that were the case, why did they oversell the flight? Are they so
disorganized that they cannot foresee these things?

Can you foresee that a plane coming from Atlanta to Detroit isn't
going to arrive because it had a maintenance issue and didn't leave?
Or that it had an inflight problem and had to divert?
Now you have a plane in Detroit scheduled for Miami with no crew.
Hence, you need to find a crew somewhere that can be flown there
in time. It's not unusual.

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 11:55:25 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 08:18:51 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:


Does their own convenience include getting flight crews to where they
are needed for a flight? That apparently is what happened here.

The airline's failure to plan does not constitute an emergency for me.

How do you know it was a failure to plan? If a plane that was supposed
to arrive in some city doesn't get there because of a problem with the
equipment or they had to make an emergency landing because of some other
asshole passenger, then they may have no flight crew in that city for
a plane that needs to leave later in the day. In that case, they have
to get one that's available from somewhere.


I agree, fighting the cops was stupid but I would have made it clear,
there was someone else who would negotiate a better deal for them than
me. You do that with the gate agent, not the flight crew.

I agree.


My usual settlement for a missed flight (their fault) is a nice hotel
room, a food voucher (dinner and breakfast) and 30,000-40,000 points.
The last time this happened to me in DTW, Delta picked up our room in
the Westin, right there on Concourse A, food and I got a voucher to
buy clothes since they will not give you your checked bags.
I did have a First Class ticket tho.

And that sure helps

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 10:02:41 AM UTC-4, Kurt V. Ullman wrote:
On 4/11/17 9:10 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/11/2017 12:23 AM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:15:07 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

If it was overbooked, there should have been four people standing up
looking for a seat. Musical Chairs rules should apply.

Airlines overbook every day. It ****es people off.


Often there are no-shows so I can understand it. I've been bumped but
was well compensated for it and it made little difference in my life.
Arriving a couple of hours later in first class and getting free tickets
is not so bad. In this case though, the guy was already seated on the
plane. Poor planning on the airline.
The problem with that is for the most part the no-shows have already
paid and any more it is non-refunable. So they are double dipping if
they overbook.

Non-refundable not usable.

Yes, some tickets you have no recourse. But most tickets on the majors
are re-usable, usually with a change fee, depending on whether it's a
full fare ticket or a deep discount one.

In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 12:32:59 PM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 4/11/2017 10:50 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...



I would agree, assuming they knew they had these 4 employees all
along. It's possible that only came up after people had boarded.
Once this guy claimed he was a doctor and started bitching, they
should have asked to see his license and if he showed it, then
selected another random person. That seems like a reasonable thing
that could have avoided this mess.


If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a
flight a few days sooner. Unless he was some kind of very special
doctor on an emergency call, which would be doubtful.

It's rather clear that you, Ralph, have little understanding of overbooking.

Your comment that he should have planned ahead is just ignorant. He DID
plan ahead. He booked and was seated on a flight that would get him to
Louisville when he needed to be. The airline did not do the same with
their crew members. Whose planning was **** poor?

I don't think Ralph is too far off. If you really, really have to be
somewhere, then you don't plan on taking the last flight available
the day before you need to be there. For example, if you live in NYC
and are taking a cruise that leaves from LA, it's not a good idea to
take the last flight that will get you to the dock on time. Airlines
have to cancel flights occasionally due to weather, equipment problems,
crew problems, etc.

That was sort of my thinking. Airplanes often get delayed for various
reasons not under control. The weather could be bad, or for some reason
the airplane could have mechanical problems, or even a bomb threat. How
many days was it that all planes were grounded after 9/11 ?

If someone absolutly has to be at a place, they should be set up atleast
a day or two sooner.

As far as the planning on the airlines part, there could have been crew
problems at the other airport. Maybe the crew had a wreck or some
medical problems or family problems.

I worked at a plant that needed to run 24/7 as to shut it down,
especially under under controlled conditions would have cost over a
million dollars. We don't usually get much snow in NC, but one day we
got 12 inches. Very few could get into work or out of the plant (around
400 or more people on a normal shift change each way). The ones there
stayed over and worked to keep the place running. That goes to show
things hapen that no one can predict.

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 11:32:51 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:


Chicago Department of Aviation has already suspended their officer and
acknowledged that he violated procedure by the manner in which he acted.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Officer-on-Leave-After-Video-Showed-Man-Being-Dragged-Off-Overbooked-United-Airlines-Flight-419064814.html

So the flight was delayed. Wonder if the 4 member crew made it to
their flight in Louisville on time.

"Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky called on United Airlines to
"immediately change their policy and give full restitution and
compensation to the victim."

"This use of excessive force is absolutely unacceptable," Schakowsky
said in a statement Monday afternoon. "The response from United
Airlines has been brazenly inadequate – their apology over having to
‘re-accommodate’ passengers is completely insulting, and their attempt
to pass the buck by blaming the Chicago Police Department for the
incident demonstrates that they do not understand the gravity of this
incident."

IMO the officer over calculated his used of force. Failed to provide
medical attention and allowed the passenger back on the plane. He
screwed the pooch.

On 4/11/2017 1:17 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 12:32:59 PM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 4/11/2017 10:50 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...



I would agree, assuming they knew they had these 4 employees all
along. It's possible that only came up after people had boarded.
Once this guy claimed he was a doctor and started bitching, they
should have asked to see his license and if he showed it, then
selected another random person. That seems like a reasonable thing
that could have avoided this mess.


If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a
flight a few days sooner. Unless he was some kind of very special
doctor on an emergency call, which would be doubtful.

It's rather clear that you, Ralph, have little understanding of overbooking.

Your comment that he should have planned ahead is just ignorant. He DID
plan ahead. He booked and was seated on a flight that would get him to
Louisville when he needed to be. The airline did not do the same with
their crew members. Whose planning was **** poor?

I don't think Ralph is too far off. If you really, really have to be
somewhere, then you don't plan on taking the last flight available
the day before you need to be there. For example, if you live in NYC
and are taking a cruise that leaves from LA, it's not a good idea to
take the last flight that will get you to the dock on time. Airlines
have to cancel flights occasionally due to weather, equipment problems,
crew problems, etc.

That was sort of my thinking. Airplanes often get delayed for various
reasons not under control. The weather could be bad, or for some reason
the airplane could have mechanical problems, or even a bomb threat. How
many days was it that all planes were grounded after 9/11 ?

If someone absolutly has to be at a place, they should be set up atleast
a day or two sooner.

As far as the planning on the airlines part, there could have been crew
problems at the other airport. Maybe the crew had a wreck or some
medical problems or family problems.

I worked at a plant that needed to run 24/7 as to shut it down,
especially under under controlled conditions would have cost over a
million dollars. We don't usually get much snow in NC, but one day we
got 12 inches. Very few could get into work or out of the plant (around
400 or more people on a normal shift change each way). The ones there
stayed over and worked to keep the place running. That goes to show
things hapen that no one can predict.

Saw this at company I worked for. Could have been the same one.

Just got through listening to some supercilious United Airline pilot
calling Limbaugh and saying that it is a privilege to fly and there are
rules that must be followed and the airline obeyed them. He implied
that travelers should also know them and abide by them.

Whatever the excuse the airline was working to maximize its profits to
avoid downtime.

Retired, I seldom fly anymore but did a bit when I was working and
inconvenienced many times by what was an airline mistake. With the
security problem, I would hate to fly today. A marketing manager I know
says he spends all his days in airports. Very frustrating for travelers.

Andy wrote:

They should have upped the offer to $2000.

Or to whatever price necessary to induce four ticketed passengers to
give up their seats. Most Americans are fair weather free marketeers:
they're all in favor of "capitalism" when it works in their favor, but
they'll resort to coercion when they can get away with it.

Ralph Mowery wrote:

If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a flight
a few days sooner.

So passengers should waste their time because United Airlines doesn't
plan ahead?

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 10:07:51 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, April 10, 2017 at 9:50:32 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/10/2017 9:38 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
One snowflake, squealing like a pig, as he is dragged from the plane as other snowflakes sit by and scream "Oh my
God"! That had to be a flight either to or from California.

Maybe the police should have taken the guy who kept saying "I have to go home" with them too.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/539284773...#sp=show-clips


They kicked him (and 3 others) off to make room for a Delta employee.
That seems unfair to me as they were already boarded. .

Apparently they needed 4 seats for Delta employees who were crew
on their way to where they were needed for a flight. I don't see
that as unfair. Airlines routinely overbook flights and it's not
often that they wind up with too few seats. If they made a mistake,
it was in letting people on the plane before they were sure they
had enough seats. But then IDK when they first learned that they
had these 4 extra employees, could have been at the last minute.

I agree with Gordon on this one. The media is just going wild on
this one, saying the whole country is outraged at United.
Well, I'm outraged too, but not at United. I'm fed up with idiots
like this that make a spectacle, force planes to make an emergency
landing because they have to pay $12 for a blanket and stunts like
this. The dishonest media isn't even reporting the most basic facts.
This was Chicago, not some little airport with no flights. So, when
was the next flight that they could have put this passenger on?
I bet they could have gotten him to his destination in just a few more
hours.

And this clown is a doctor? I wouldn't want him as my doctor with that
kind of judgment and behavior. Also, on talk radio this morning,
apparently the truth is starting to come out. I heard talk that the
doctor's license had been suspended for drug offenses, including trading
drugs for sex. IDK if it's true, but that's what's being reported some
places now.

The doctor paid for his seat.

Did the 4 Delta employees pay for their seat.

Not they did not !!

I cheer for the doctor who stood up for his rights.

There is a good saying.

"Your bad planning does not become my emergency."

Andy

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 10:02:34 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 11:55:25 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 08:18:51 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:


Does their own convenience include getting flight crews to where they
are needed for a flight? That apparently is what happened here.

The airline's failure to plan does not constitute an emergency for me.

How do you know it was a failure to plan? If a plane that was supposed
to arrive in some city doesn't get there because of a problem with the
equipment or they had to make an emergency landing because of some other
asshole passenger, then they may have no flight crew in that city for
a plane that needs to leave later in the day. In that case, they have
to get one that's available from somewhere.


That happens often enough that they should have a better plan,

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 10:03:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 10:02:41 AM UTC-4, Kurt V. Ullman wrote:
On 4/11/17 9:10 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/11/2017 12:23 AM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:15:07 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

If it was overbooked, there should have been four people standing up
looking for a seat. Musical Chairs rules should apply.

Airlines overbook every day. It ****es people off.


Often there are no-shows so I can understand it. I've been bumped but
was well compensated for it and it made little difference in my life.
Arriving a couple of hours later in first class and getting free tickets
is not so bad. In this case though, the guy was already seated on the
plane. Poor planning on the airline.
The problem with that is for the most part the no-shows have already
paid and any more it is non-refunable. So they are double dipping if
they overbook.

Non-refundable not usable.

Yes, some tickets you have no recourse. But most tickets on the majors
are re-usable, usually with a change fee, depending on whether it's a
full fare ticket or a deep discount one.

That change fee is $100, at least with every airline I have been on
and that is a full fare first class ticket. You need to pay an
additional fee in advance if you want a flex ticket.

On 4/11/2017 11:23 AM, trader_4 wrote:



I would agree, assuming they knew they had these 4 employees all along.
It's possible that only came up after people had boarded. Once this
guy claimed he was a doctor and started bitching, they should have
asked to see his license and if he showed it, then selected another
random person. That seems like a reasonable thing that could have
avoided this mess.


If they did not know until the passengers were seated, they are dumber
than I thought. It is still poor planning on the part of the airline
and someone should be punished

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 12:44:23 -0400, Frank "frank wrote:

On 4/11/2017 10:10 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 4/11/2017 6:20 AM, Frank wrote:
On 4/11/2017 12:35 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 4/10/2017 9:23 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:15:07 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

If it was overbooked, there should have been four people standing up
looking for a seat. Musical Chairs rules should apply.

Airlines overbook every day. It ****es people off.



People don't show up for flights, so airlines overbook. They play the
statistics game and sometimes there are loosers. Just like in Musical
Chairs.

I heard it was not overbooked but the airline wanted seats for its own
employees to get to their jobs.

Story still developing so we will see how it ends. Guy said he was
important Dr. but who knows if he is telling the truth.

If airline did do it for their own convenience it will cost them a
bundle.



If that flight crew was needed to keep the schedules rolling, I am not
sure it was just "for their convenience". But, nobody should have been
boarded that might need to get bumped voluntarily or not. Do that
before the jetway.

If that were the case, why did they oversell the flight? Are they so
disorganized that they cannot foresee these things?
Short answer?
Yes. They ROUTINELY overbook these flights, counting on some
passengers not showing up. Then when they need to move crew members at
the last minute the brown stuff hits the fan. Sounds like the flight
crew movement was last minute - possibly THEY had been bumped from a
previous flight (which happens more often than you'd believe). They
bounce the crew to accomodate passengers, counting on a light load on
a following flight - then end up with it overbooked too. Then they
don't offer enough incentive for someone to figure it's worth while
taking a later flight.
Offer to put them up at a classt hotel and give them tickets to a
baseball game or something, and a guaranteed morning flight, and
they'd have to fight off the volunteers.

On 4/11/2017 11:50 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:


If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a flight
a few days sooner. Unless he was some kind of very special doctor on
an emergency call, which would be doubtful.




Given the reliability of air travel at any time, I'd agree. Same with
people that have to meet a cruise ship that is not going to wait for
you. As should the airline schedule their crew better, not to have to
pull people out of their seats.

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 13:17:55 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 12:32:59 PM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 4/11/2017 10:50 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...



I would agree, assuming they knew they had these 4 employees all
along. It's possible that only came up after people had boarded.
Once this guy claimed he was a doctor and started bitching, they
should have asked to see his license and if he showed it, then
selected another random person. That seems like a reasonable thing
that could have avoided this mess.


If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a
flight a few days sooner. Unless he was some kind of very special
doctor on an emergency call, which would be doubtful.

It's rather clear that you, Ralph, have little understanding of overbooking.

Your comment that he should have planned ahead is just ignorant. He DID
plan ahead. He booked and was seated on a flight that would get him to
Louisville when he needed to be. The airline did not do the same with
their crew members. Whose planning was **** poor?

I don't think Ralph is too far off. If you really, really have to be
somewhere, then you don't plan on taking the last flight available
the day before you need to be there. For example, if you live in NYC
and are taking a cruise that leaves from LA, it's not a good idea to
take the last flight that will get you to the dock on time. Airlines
have to cancel flights occasionally due to weather, equipment problems,
crew problems, etc.

That was sort of my thinking. Airplanes often get delayed for various
reasons not under control. The weather could be bad, or for some reason
the airplane could have mechanical problems, or even a bomb threat. How
many days was it that all planes were grounded after 9/11 ?

If someone absolutly has to be at a place, they should be set up atleast
a day or two sooner.

As far as the planning on the airlines part, there could have been crew
problems at the other airport. Maybe the crew had a wreck or some
medical problems or family problems.

I worked at a plant that needed to run 24/7 as to shut it down,
especially under under controlled conditions would have cost over a
million dollars. We don't usually get much snow in NC, but one day we
got 12 inches. Very few could get into work or out of the plant (around
400 or more people on a normal shift change each way). The ones there
stayed over and worked to keep the place running. That goes to show
things hapen that no one can predict.
Sometimes, particularly on commuter flights, someone HAS to book a
flight last minute so you really can't blame the "doctor". They cannot
book a day off in between - both directions.

As for cancelled flights, a friend was in New Youk 9-11 and needed to
get home. He managed to find a rental car, and SEVEN people got home
to Toronto that night. I've heard of it being done several times.
Californis to Tennesee is a bit different though - - - although some
people DID drive home from Florida in rental cars instead of flying- -

On 4/11/2017 1:08 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 13:17:55 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 12:32:59 PM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 4/11/2017 10:50 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...



I would agree, assuming they knew they had these 4 employees all
along. It's possible that only came up after people had boarded.
Once this guy claimed he was a doctor and started bitching, they
should have asked to see his license and if he showed it, then
selected another random person. That seems like a reasonable thing
that could have avoided this mess.


If that doctor was all that important, he should have scheduled a
flight a few days sooner. Unless he was some kind of very special
doctor on an emergency call, which would be doubtful.

It's rather clear that you, Ralph, have little understanding of overbooking.

Your comment that he should have planned ahead is just ignorant. He DID
plan ahead. He booked and was seated on a flight that would get him to
Louisville when he needed to be. The airline did not do the same with
their crew members. Whose planning was **** poor?

I don't think Ralph is too far off. If you really, really have to be
somewhere, then you don't plan on taking the last flight available
the day before you need to be there. For example, if you live in NYC
and are taking a cruise that leaves from LA, it's not a good idea to
take the last flight that will get you to the dock on time. Airlines
have to cancel flights occasionally due to weather, equipment problems,
crew problems, etc.

That was sort of my thinking. Airplanes often get delayed for various
reasons not under control. The weather could be bad, or for some reason
the airplane could have mechanical problems, or even a bomb threat. How
many days was it that all planes were grounded after 9/11 ?

If someone absolutly has to be at a place, they should be set up atleast
a day or two sooner.

As far as the planning on the airlines part, there could have been crew
problems at the other airport. Maybe the crew had a wreck or some
medical problems or family problems.

I worked at a plant that needed to run 24/7 as to shut it down,
especially under under controlled conditions would have cost over a
million dollars. We don't usually get much snow in NC, but one day we
got 12 inches. Very few could get into work or out of the plant (around
400 or more people on a normal shift change each way). The ones there
stayed over and worked to keep the place running. That goes to show
things hapen that no one can predict.
Sometimes, particularly on commuter flights, someone HAS to book a
flight last minute so you really can't blame the "doctor". They cannot
book a day off in between - both directions.

Then stay home.


As for cancelled flights, a friend was in New Youk 9-11 and needed to
get home. He managed to find a rental car, and SEVEN people got home
to Toronto that night. I've heard of it being done several times.
Californis to Tennesee is a bit different though - - - although some
people DID drive home from Florida in rental cars instead of flying- -



Per Google Maps, it is a 5 hour drive. Of course it would be a risky
thing for the stoned out doc to do.

On 4/11/2017 11:10 AM, trader_4 wrote:

airlines and I hope the guy sues them for millions and settles for half
that. He will win.

So the new protocol is that you can just refuse to leave? Next you'll
have everyone claiming they have important business to attend to and
that they won't leave. This guy is just another one of these obnoxious
assholes that screws with the rest of us and makes travel disasters.
And check out what the media is finally starting to report about the
doctor's background, eg TMZ is reporting the doctor's license was
suspended for drug violations, including exchanging drug's for sex.


The guy may be a dirt bag, but that does not excuse the airline for
screwing up. The guy should not have been seated. Why did they not
know in advance the employees had to fly? We're talking 15 or 20
minutes when they started to board.

I'd like to know if the crew had to make a flight of if they were just
on the way home from vacation. I've not seen anything on that yet.

On 4/10/2017 11:22 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 19:55:41 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 22:04:03 -0400, Meanie wrote:

It was an overbook by the airlines. They asked for volunteers and
offered an $800 voucher to stay over night and catch a flight the next
day. Nobody volunteered. Therefore, they randomly selected 4 people via
algorithm method. A young couple who were asked to leave quietly left.
The man who refused said he is a doctor who has patients he needs to see
in the morning in Louisville, where the flight was headed. His refusal
prompt security who dragged him off. It was pure bull**** by the
airlines and I hope the guy sues them for millions and settles for half
that. He will win.

+1

Sue the family dogs and everybody ever known to allow this **** to
happen. Zealot cops need to know their authority, where it starts and
ends.

I bet United will sweeten the pot until someone bites next time.
They used to make better deals until the lobbyists got the law changed
and reduced their liability.
The thing that would have me bartering with the desk agent is the fact
that this was all United's fault. It was their lack of planning that
forced them to board 4 crew members and bump 4 passengers.
It certainly would not be a lousy $800 because my tickets usually cost
more than that.
**************
Print this and keep it in your pocket when you fly (from the DOT web
site)

If the airline arranges substitute transportation that is scheduled to
arrive at your destination between one and two hours after your
original arrival time (between one and four hours on international
flights), the airline must pay you an amount equal to 200% of your
one-way fare to your final destination that day, with a $675 maximum.

If the substitute transportation is scheduled to get you to your
destination more than two hours later (four hours internationally), or
if the airline does not make any substitute travel arrangements for
you, the compensation doubles (400% of your one-way fare, $1350
maximum).
*******************

This would be my starting point. I would want more.



It would be advantageous for them to sweeten the pot consider the
disastrous outcome will cost them millions.

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 14:43:45 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 10:03:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 10:02:41 AM UTC-4, Kurt V. Ullman wrote:
On 4/11/17 9:10 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/11/2017 12:23 AM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:15:07 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

If it was overbooked, there should have been four people standing up
looking for a seat. Musical Chairs rules should apply.

Airlines overbook every day. It ****es people off.


Often there are no-shows so I can understand it. I've been bumped but
was well compensated for it and it made little difference in my life.
Arriving a couple of hours later in first class and getting free tickets
is not so bad. In this case though, the guy was already seated on the
plane. Poor planning on the airline.
The problem with that is for the most part the no-shows have already
paid and any more it is non-refunable. So they are double dipping if
they overbook.

Non-refundable not usable.

Yes, some tickets you have no recourse. But most tickets on the majors
are re-usable, usually with a change fee, depending on whether it's a
full fare ticket or a deep discount one.

That change fee is $100, at least with every airline I have been on
and that is a full fare first class ticket. You need to pay an
additional fee in advance if you want a flex ticket.
Usually a full fare ticket is a flexible ticket. Any discount
generally is not, without significant notice or a sizeable fee.

Generally if you "confirm"48 hours in advance there is no problem
changing the flight, and coming home from Europe,there was "job
action" at frankfurt which meant flights were rescheduled and
cancelled out of Barcelona. We were ticketed on air france from
Barcelona to Frankfurt to Toronto. We managed to re-route from
Barcelona to Paris to JFK to Pearson. The flight from Barcelona to
Paris was delayed, so the flight from Paris to JFK was late and the
connection to Pearson was missed, meaning we had to overnight in the
Big Apple. A professor we met and who helped us make the
barcelona-paris-JFK connection HAD to be in Toronto for a very
important conference (he was keynote speaker I believe) kept
questioning air france personel because they said there were NO
flights that could get him home before 10:30 the next morning - they
ended up sending him by taxi to Teterborough? where he caught a flight
to London Ontario where he took a rental car to Toronto - - - -.
Always more than one way to skin a cat!!!!

On 4/11/2017 4:34 AM, Bob wrote:
On 04/11/2017 12:41 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:12:33 -0700, wrote:

I'd kindly tell the cops; before you put your hands on me, you better
know what the **** you are doing.

This **** could get ugly:-)
The last thing you ever want to do is start a fight with a cop and
that is doubly true at an airport where every little infraction is a
federal crime.

But Oren is super badass, even the feds wouldn't dare to mess with him.
LOL

And FWIW, if you don't want bumped, buy an adult seat up front or
charter a Gulfstream. Airlines only bump the riffraff in coach.

Nobody would get bumped if the airlines didn't **** up with their
overbooking. I'm amazed there isn't a better control of this issue
considering overbooking is common. They waste so much money with
overbooking the need to offset the cost reflects on the rest who fly.

On 4/11/2017 1:02 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 11:55:25 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 08:18:51 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:


Does their own convenience include getting flight crews to where they
are needed for a flight? That apparently is what happened here.

The airline's failure to plan does not constitute an emergency for me.

How do you know it was a failure to plan? If a plane that was supposed
to arrive in some city doesn't get there because of a problem with the
equipment or they had to make an emergency landing because of some other
asshole passenger, then they may have no flight crew in that city for
a plane that needs to leave later in the day. In that case, they have
to get one that's available from somewhere.


You are correct, but I question the timing. Did that happen after the
passengers were seated? Possible, but doubtful. Should have been
handled at the gate.

Had it happen to me. Went to check in and the person asked if we would
agree to be bumped. I asked what if I said "no". The reply was "you're
not getting on anyway".` He gave us a nice deal and we arrived four
hours late. First class both ways too!

On 4/11/2017 11:17 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 10:14:55 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...



I'd kindly tell the cops; before you put your hands on me, you better
know what the **** you are doing.

This **** could get ugly :-)

There must be respect for the cops. The passanger was wrong to resist.


I agree. He's just another one of these self-assholes who
makes travel miserable for the whole plane. Twenty years ago, we
didn't have this happening. Now unfortunately, jerks like this guy
have seen that everyone has a cell phone to take a video and they
figure they can make a spectacle, get a pay day, go on The Today
Show, etc.


Yes, maybe a bit over-dramatic regarding his exit, but why should he, or
anyone, have to leave a plane or any event for that matter due to the
error of the vendor? Especially during travel when one needs to get
home. If one can hype the issue for a higher monetary reward, I say go
for it. It's times the big people stop pushing the smaller people.

If I was the total judge on this, I would give the passanger about a
month of house arrest with one of the ankle things, and then give him
about a million dollars from the airline for over booking.

The over booking should be stopped,and if you get a ticket you should
pay for it even if you can not make the flight.

Are you willing to pay the price increase for tickets if they stop
overbooking? That's what will happen. They overbook based on experience
for that flight, so that they wind up with a plane as full as possible.
If they book to passengers scheduled, most planes will have more empty
seats and customers wind up paying for it. Plus we have the environental
waste of fuel.

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 08:10:54 -0700 (PDT)
trader_4 wrote:

TMZ is reporting

Your news source explains a lot about you.

WTF??

On 4/11/2017 11:46 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

about a million dollars from the airline for over booking.

The over booking should be stopped,and if you get a ticket you should
pay for it even if you can not make the flight.

Are you willing to pay the price increase for tickets if they stop
overbooking? That's what will happen. They overbook based on experience
for that flight, so that they wind up with a plane as full as possible.
If they book to passengers scheduled, most planes will have more empty
seats and customers wind up paying for it. Plus we have the environental
waste of fuel.

I may not understand the over booking.

However if someone wants a ticket on a plane and does not show up, isn't
true he does not pay for the ticket ? If that is the case, then the
airplane looses the money for that seat if not filled by over booking.

If the people were forced to pay for the ticket even if they do not make
the flight , then the seat is paid for even if it is empty.

Wouldn't that be a way for the plane to make the same ammount of money ?



How can one receive a ticket unless it's paid for? If they pay and don't
show up, tuff noogies on the purchaser. If an airline reserves or
provides a ticket without payment of some sort, sucks for them. TIme to
revamp procedures.

On 4/11/2017 12:35 AM, Taxed and Spent wrote:
On 4/10/2017 9:23 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:15:07 -0700, Taxed and Spent
wrote:

If it was overbooked, there should have been four people standing up
looking for a seat. Musical Chairs rules should apply.

Airlines overbook every day. It ****es people off.



People don't show up for flights, so airlines overbook. They play the
statistics game and sometimes there are loosers. Just like in Musical
Chairs.

Irrelevant. It's a game played by the airlines, not the customers. The
"losers" should ALWAYS be the airlines. They assume the risk, they
should suffer the consequences when they lose that risk.

On 4/11/2017 11:23 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 9:54:06 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/11/2017 9:20 AM, Frank wrote:


I heard it was not overbooked but the airline wanted seats for its own
employees to get to their jobs.

Story still developing so we will see how it ends. Guy said he was
important Dr. but who knows if he is telling the truth.

If airline did do it for their own convenience it will cost them a bundle.

Assuming the facts are correct. Is it more important for a flight
attendant or a doctor to get to the job?


IDK, that's a good question. I'd say it depends on what kind of
doctor he is, what kind of patients he's seeing. It's being reported
now that this doctor had his license suspended on drug charges,
including trading drugs for sex. What does that tell you? And what
is the inconvenience if the flight crew doesn't get to where they
are needed and 200 other people, maybe other doctors, don't get
to where they are going?

If you are booking your own employees, shouldn't they have been boarded
first and then bump passengers at the gate? Poorly done and United
deserves the poor publicity. They were pretty stupid in the way they
handled it. If the benefits are good, I'll take a bump. I like
travelling first class at their expense.


I would agree, assuming they knew they had these 4 employees all along.
It's possible that only came up after people had boarded. Once this
guy claimed he was a doctor and started bitching, they should have
asked to see his license and if he showed it, then selected another
random person. That seems like a reasonable thing that could have
avoided this mess.


What does it matter if the person is a doctor or a housewife, they are a
paying customer victimized by the error of an airline.

I simply don't understand how anyone can justify the actions of the
airline based on the customers profession. Nobody volunteered...tuff
**** for airlines. Put your four extra people in cargo.

On 4/11/2017 1:31 PM, Meanie wrote:
On 4/11/2017 11:46 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

about a million dollars from the airline for over booking.

The over booking should be stopped,and if you get a ticket you should
pay for it even if you can not make the flight.

Are you willing to pay the price increase for tickets if they stop
overbooking? That's what will happen. They overbook based on experience
for that flight, so that they wind up with a plane as full as possible.
If they book to passengers scheduled, most planes will have more empty
seats and customers wind up paying for it. Plus we have the environental
waste of fuel.

I may not understand the over booking.

However if someone wants a ticket on a plane and does not show up, isn't
true he does not pay for the ticket ? If that is the case, then the
airplane looses the money for that seat if not filled by over booking.

If the people were forced to pay for the ticket even if they do not make
the flight , then the seat is paid for even if it is empty.

Wouldn't that be a way for the plane to make the same ammount of money ?



How can one receive a ticket unless it's paid for? If they pay and don't
show up, tuff noogies on the purchaser. If an airline reserves or
provides a ticket without payment of some sort, sucks for them. TIme to
revamp procedures.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T2G...layer_embedded