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  #1   Report Post  
kevins_news2
 
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Default Box/Valve to prevent washing machine hose break and flooding?

A long time ago i saw reference to these things. Some sort of box
that connected to the water supplies. Washing machine electical plug
was plugged into it. In the case that the washine machine hoses
broke, this box would stop the flow and prevent flooding.

I have my laundry room on the 2nd floor. I absolutely love it, but of
course it makes me afraid of what will happen if my washing machine
hoses break. Big flood from the top of my house all the way down.
But i have a few questions.

1. Should i be worried? I'm still not sure if this is something that
only happens to people that haven't replaced the hoses in 30 years or
if it's really a problem. How often should washing machine hoses be
replaced then?

2. If it is a valid conscern. Where can one get these things?
Specifically, where can a Canadian. My search skills seem to have
failed me today since i cannot find good references to these online.
And is it worth paying for these? I seem to recall them costing a
couple hundred bucks. But i guess the answer to that is how much do i
value everything that would get water damaged should a hose break.

Any thoughs appreciated.
  #2   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Box/Valve to prevent washing machine hose break and flooding?

Or a ball valve on each hose bib, hot and cold.

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:54:24 GMT, "MLD" wrote:

I've read about this type of valve--forgot the specifics on how they work.
Less expensive and as a minimum, install a single lever shutoff valve that
turns off both the hot and cold water supplies upstream of the hoses. Open
it when you wash and shut it when not using the machine. Pretty fool proof.
MLD
"kevins_news2" wrote in message
.. .
A long time ago i saw reference to these things. Some sort of box
that connected to the water supplies. Washing machine electical plug
was plugged into it. In the case that the washine machine hoses
broke, this box would stop the flow and prevent flooding.

I have my laundry room on the 2nd floor. I absolutely love it, but of
course it makes me afraid of what will happen if my washing machine
hoses break. Big flood from the top of my house all the way down.
But i have a few questions.

1. Should i be worried? I'm still not sure if this is something that
only happens to people that haven't replaced the hoses in 30 years or
if it's really a problem. How often should washing machine hoses be
replaced then?

2. If it is a valid conscern. Where can one get these things?
Specifically, where can a Canadian. My search skills seem to have
failed me today since i cannot find good references to these online.
And is it worth paying for these? I seem to recall them costing a
couple hundred bucks. But i guess the answer to that is how much do i
value everything that would get water damaged should a hose break.

Any thoughs appreciated.



  #3   Report Post  
MLD
 
Posts: n/a
Default Box/Valve to prevent washing machine hose break and flooding?

I've read about this type of valve--forgot the specifics on how they work.
Less expensive and as a minimum, install a single lever shutoff valve that
turns off both the hot and cold water supplies upstream of the hoses. Open
it when you wash and shut it when not using the machine. Pretty fool proof.
MLD
"kevins_news2" wrote in message
...
A long time ago i saw reference to these things. Some sort of box
that connected to the water supplies. Washing machine electical plug
was plugged into it. In the case that the washine machine hoses
broke, this box would stop the flow and prevent flooding.

I have my laundry room on the 2nd floor. I absolutely love it, but of
course it makes me afraid of what will happen if my washing machine
hoses break. Big flood from the top of my house all the way down.
But i have a few questions.

1. Should i be worried? I'm still not sure if this is something that
only happens to people that haven't replaced the hoses in 30 years or
if it's really a problem. How often should washing machine hoses be
replaced then?

2. If it is a valid conscern. Where can one get these things?
Specifically, where can a Canadian. My search skills seem to have
failed me today since i cannot find good references to these online.
And is it worth paying for these? I seem to recall them costing a
couple hundred bucks. But i guess the answer to that is how much do i
value everything that would get water damaged should a hose break.

Any thoughs appreciated.



  #4   Report Post  
Jeff Wisnia
 
Posts: n/a
Default Box/Valve to prevent washing machine hose break and flooding?

kevins_news2 wrote:
A long time ago i saw reference to these things. Some sort of box
that connected to the water supplies. Washing machine electical plug
was plugged into it. In the case that the washine machine hoses
broke, this box would stop the flow and prevent flooding.

I have my laundry room on the 2nd floor. I absolutely love it, but of
course it makes me afraid of what will happen if my washing machine
hoses break. Big flood from the top of my house all the way down.
But i have a few questions.

1. Should i be worried? I'm still not sure if this is something that
only happens to people that haven't replaced the hoses in 30 years or
if it's really a problem. How often should washing machine hoses be
replaced then?

2. If it is a valid conscern. Where can one get these things?
Specifically, where can a Canadian. My search skills seem to have
failed me today since i cannot find good references to these online.
And is it worth paying for these? I seem to recall them costing a
couple hundred bucks. But i guess the answer to that is how much do i
value everything that would get water damaged should a hose break.

Any thoughs appreciated.


Here's one kind which uses a water sensor placed on the floor. Can be
applied to hot watewr heaters and toilets too:

http://www.safehomeproducts.com/SHP/...od_Stop_Washer

But, I have heard of the kind which you plug the washing machine into.

The way I understand how those things work is that they use a pair of
normally closed electrically operated water valves and a "black box"
which supplies power to open those valves only when the washing machine
is drawing electrical current from the outlet on the box, i.e. while
it's "running".

But, if that's all they do, could they protect against a hose which
decided to let go during the course of a normal wash? Seems like a lot
of water could squirt out of the hose during the time it took the
machine to complete it's timed cycles.

My inquiring mind wants to know....

Jeff

--
Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"My luck is so bad that if I bought a cemetery, people would stop dying."

  #5   Report Post  
Jeff Wisnia
 
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Default Box/Valve-More


OK, here's the one which operates on machine current flow:

http://www.accentshopping.com/store/...alve/A2CM1.asp

But, I'm still wondering what happens if a hose finally gives up and
blows from the shock created when one of the machine's solenoid valves
slams shuts at the end of a fill or rinse cycle.

Comments guys?

Jeff


--
Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"My luck is so bad that if I bought a cemetery, people would stop dying."



  #6   Report Post  
Jeff Wisnia
 
Posts: n/a
Default Box/Valve - and More!

kevins_news2 wrote:

A long time ago i saw reference to these things. Some sort of box
that connected to the water supplies. Washing machine electical plug
was plugged into it. In the case that the washine machine hoses
broke, this box would stop the flow and prevent flooding.

I have my laundry room on the 2nd floor. I absolutely love it, but of
course it makes me afraid of what will happen if my washing machine
hoses break. Big flood from the top of my house all the way down.
But i have a few questions.

1. Should i be worried? I'm still not sure if this is something that
only happens to people that haven't replaced the hoses in 30 years or
if it's really a problem. How often should washing machine hoses be
replaced then?

2. If it is a valid conscern. Where can one get these things?
Specifically, where can a Canadian. My search skills seem to have
failed me today since i cannot find good references to these online.
And is it worth paying for these? I seem to recall them costing a
couple hundred bucks. But i guess the answer to that is how much do i
value everything that would get water damaged should a hose break.

Any thoughs appreciated.


I should have read the copy more thoroughly. That load current sensing
type also uses a floor mounted moisture sensor for "belt and suspenders"
safety. As they say in the copy:

"The IntelliFlow’s™ automatic operation and
floor mounted leak sensor protect against catastrophic water damage
should a washing machine inlet hose burst while the machine is in use."

I guess that floor sensor also helps out if the leak comes from the
machine's innards, and not from a leaking or burst hose.

Case closed...

Jeff

Features
--
Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"My luck is so bad that if I bought a cemetery, people would stop dying."

  #7   Report Post  
Seth Goodman
 
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Default Box/Valve-More

In article ,
Jeff Wisnia wrote:


OK, here's the one which operates on machine current flow:

http://www.accentshopping.com/store/...alve/A2CM1.asp

But, I'm still wondering what happens if a hose finally gives up and
blows from the shock created when one of the machine's solenoid valves
slams shuts at the end of a fill or rinse cycle.

Comments guys?


I see the real purpose of these valves to be protection while you're
away.

Normally, people are home while doing laundry, and would detect the
break in a reasonably short amount of time. You'd have a big puddle to
clean up, but no major damage.

Now, suppose you went away for a two week vacation, and five minutes
after you left, a washer hose burst...

And, just to make things interesting - some friends of mine have one of
those single-handled shutoff valves on their washer - and were very good
about always remembering to keep it closed when not using the washer.

One day they came home to find a flood in their laundry room - the valve
*itself* had failed. The valve looked like this one:
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/images/washvalv.jpg

Note the two large screws at the top of the valve - one of those screws
blew out, causing the flood.


--
Seth Goodman
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kevins_news2
 
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Default Box/Valve - and More!

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:48:06 -0400, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

kevins_news2 wrote:

A long time ago i saw reference to these things. Some sort of box
that connected to the water supplies. Washing machine electical plug
was plugged into it. In the case that the washine machine hoses
broke, this box would stop the flow and prevent flooding.


I should have read the copy more thoroughly. That load current sensing
type also uses a floor mounted moisture sensor for "belt and suspenders"
safety. As they say in the copy:

"The IntelliFlow’s™ automatic operation and
floor mounted leak sensor protect against catastrophic water damage
should a washing machine inlet hose burst while the machine is in use."

I guess that floor sensor also helps out if the leak comes from the
machine's innards, and not from a leaking or burst hose.

Case closed...


Thanks for all the information. The only reason i mentioned the
current flow version was because that was the only one i was aware
off. The floor leak sensor idea sounds like a better idea overall.

Now to attempt to find a local (canadian) source.

Thanks again.
  #9   Report Post  
JerryMouse
 
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Default Box/Valve-More

Seth Goodman wrote:
And, just to make things interesting - some friends of mine have one
of
those single-handled shutoff valves on their washer - and were very
good
about always remembering to keep it closed when not using the washer.

One day they came home to find a flood in their laundry room - the
valve *itself* had failed. The valve looked like this one:
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/images/washvalv.jpg

Note the two large screws at the top of the valve - one of those
screws
blew out, causing the flood.


Fail-safe mechanisms always fail by failing to fail-safe.


  #10   Report Post  
rck
 
Posts: n/a
Default Box/Valve - and More!

I've read about a mechanical shut off valve that can be used on any pipe.
Normally flow is restricted to a given amount by the appliance or faucet
being used, whereas with a broken pipe it gushes out at a faster rate. When
the safe rate is exceeded it closes the valve and requires a manual reset.
No power needed. I've heard this type of valve is required on some gas
lines. I'll look for more information.

Bob

"kevins_news2" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:48:06 -0400, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

kevins_news2 wrote:

A long time ago i saw reference to these things. Some sort of box
that connected to the water supplies. Washing machine electical plug
was plugged into it. In the case that the washine machine hoses
broke, this box would stop the flow and prevent flooding.


I should have read the copy more thoroughly. That load current sensing
type also uses a floor mounted moisture sensor for "belt and suspenders"
safety. As they say in the copy:

"The IntelliFlow'sT automatic operation and
floor mounted leak sensor protect against catastrophic water damage
should a washing machine inlet hose burst while the machine is in use."

I guess that floor sensor also helps out if the leak comes from the
machine's innards, and not from a leaking or burst hose.

Case closed...


Thanks for all the information. The only reason i mentioned the
current flow version was because that was the only one i was aware
off. The floor leak sensor idea sounds like a better idea overall.

Now to attempt to find a local (canadian) source.

Thanks again.





  #11   Report Post  
Dave Harnish
 
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Default Box/Valve to prevent washing machine hose break and flooding?

If I may add my $.02: in the interest of keeping life simple, I've
always recommended, for some 32 years now, that the washer
supply faucet(s) always be turned off when not using the washer.
Really not a big deal, especially if you have them installed where
they're easily reached.

Thanks to a Mr. Murphy, washer hoses always seem to burst
when you're away on vacation.'Worst one I remember was in
a nice split-level in Lancaster County, PA. Sure enough, the
homeowners were gone for two weeks. Neighbor noticed water
coming out from under the garage door! Water co. came and
turned off the supply at the curb.

We were called out when they got home. Burst hot fill hose.
What a mess!

It takes only about 21 days to instill a habit, and turning off the
water's a really good one to work on! And I try to replace our
own hoses about every 5 years. It's also a good idea to add a
screen at the inlets, at least on the cold side. Makes screen
cleaning very easy when it's needed.

We've been washing every day for 30 years now, and never had
a problem (probably because we seldom go on vacation grin).

Actually, the way they're starting to build washers, the hoses will
soon long outlast the machines - but that's another subject entirely!

God bless,

Dave Harnish
Dave's Repair Service
New Albany, PA
www.DavesRepair.com

570-363-2404

I'm a 32-year pro appliance technician, and love sharing what
I've learned - in a FREE Monthly Appliance Tips Newsletter.
(Back issues now posted here too!)
www.DavesRepair.com

John 3:3

"kevins_news2" wrote in message
...
A long time ago i saw reference to these things. Some sort of box
that connected to the water supplies. Washing machine electical plug
was plugged into it. In the case that the washine machine hoses
broke, this box would stop the flow and prevent flooding.

I have my laundry room on the 2nd floor. I absolutely love it, but of
course it makes me afraid of what will happen if my washing machine
hoses break. Big flood from the top of my house all the way down.
But i have a few questions.

1. Should i be worried? I'm still not sure if this is something that
only happens to people that haven't replaced the hoses in 30 years or
if it's really a problem. How often should washing machine hoses be
replaced then?

2. If it is a valid conscern. Where can one get these things?
Specifically, where can a Canadian. My search skills seem to have
failed me today since i cannot find good references to these online.
And is it worth paying for these? I seem to recall them costing a
couple hundred bucks. But i guess the answer to that is how much do i
value everything that would get water damaged should a hose break.

Any thoughs appreciated.



  #12   Report Post  
jeff
 
Posts: n/a
Default Box/Valve to prevent washing machine hose break and flooding?

kevins_news2 wrote in message . ..
A long time ago i saw reference to these things. Some sort of box
that connected to the water supplies. Washing machine electical plug
was plugged into it. In the case that the washine machine hoses
broke, this box would stop the flow and prevent flooding.

I have my laundry room on the 2nd floor. I absolutely love it, but of
course it makes me afraid of what will happen if my washing machine
hoses break. Big flood from the top of my house all the way down.
But i have a few questions.

1. Should i be worried? I'm still not sure if this is something that
only happens to people that haven't replaced the hoses in 30 years or
if it's really a problem. How often should washing machine hoses be
replaced then?

2. If it is a valid conscern. Where can one get these things?
Specifically, where can a Canadian. My search skills seem to have
failed me today since i cannot find good references to these online.
And is it worth paying for these? I seem to recall them costing a
couple hundred bucks. But i guess the answer to that is how much do i
value everything that would get water damaged should a hose break.

Any thoughs appreciated.


Hi,

One style can be seen below....

http://www.repairclinic.com/referral.asp?R=153&N=916459
Floodstop - The new Floodstop automatic water shut-off system.
Installs in five minutes. No special tools needed. Prevents water
damage caused by broken washing machine water fill hoses or
overfilling of washing machine due to defective water level switch.

The same should be available in Canada

SS hoses are a good idea for the washer as well.

jeff.
Appliance Repair Aid
http://www.applianceaid.com/
  #13   Report Post  
Dan O.
 
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Default Box/Valve-More


Jeff Wisnia wrote

OK, here's the one which operates on machine current flow:

http://www.accentshopping.com/store/...hingmachineshu

toffvalve/A2CM1.asp

Comments guys?


It still wouldn't be an absolute guarantee against floods.

Say during a normal fill the hose bursts or the washer develops a
leak. The washer may never fill up to the proper level so it keeps
filling, and filling and filling, etc. Since the machine is drawing
power that safety device wouldn't come into play and water would still
be flowing.

I think the other device with the sensor would be a more sure fire
safety.

I did read previously somewhere about hoses or connectors which if
they sensed uncontrolled water flow they would stop it mechanically.
Maybe a combination of all 3 systems would be sure to prevent floods?

Dan O.
-
Appliance411.com
http://ng.Appliance411.com/?ref411=clothes+washer

=Š~~~~~~



  #14   Report Post  
jim
 
Posts: n/a
Default Box/Valve to prevent washing machine hose break and flooding?

kevins_news2 wrote:

A long time ago i saw reference to these things. Some sort of box
that connected to the water supplies. Washing machine electical plug
was plugged into it. In the case that the washine machine hoses
broke, this box would stop the flow and prevent flooding.

I have my laundry room on the 2nd floor. I absolutely love it, but of
course it makes me afraid of what will happen if my washing machine
hoses break. Big flood from the top of my house all the way down.
But i have a few questions.

1. Should i be worried? I'm still not sure if this is something that
only happens to people that haven't replaced the hoses in 30 years or
if it's really a problem. How often should washing machine hoses be
replaced then?

2. If it is a valid conscern. Where can one get these things?
Specifically, where can a Canadian. My search skills seem to have
failed me today since i cannot find good references to these online.
And is it worth paying for these? I seem to recall them costing a
couple hundred bucks. But i guess the answer to that is how much do i
value everything that would get water damaged should a hose break.

Any thoughs appreciated.

i had a water heater spit out water for about 30 minutes before we saw
it.. it was only a trickle.. but if we were on vacation well the house
would have been flooded... new water heater, no problem.. when on
vacation we turned the water supply and gas supply off for the water
heater.... when we got home there was no water mess in the middle of
july at 10 PM, but we also turned off the a/c and the house was hot as
hell....for about 4 hrs....
  #15   Report Post  
Tony Hwang
 
Posts: n/a
Default Box/Valve to prevent washing machine hose break and flooding?

jim wrote:
kevins_news2 wrote:

A long time ago i saw reference to these things. Some sort of box
that connected to the water supplies. Washing machine electical plug
was plugged into it. In the case that the washine machine hoses
broke, this box would stop the flow and prevent flooding.

I have my laundry room on the 2nd floor. I absolutely love it, but of
course it makes me afraid of what will happen if my washing machine
hoses break. Big flood from the top of my house all the way down.
But i have a few questions.

1. Should i be worried? I'm still not sure if this is something that
only happens to people that haven't replaced the hoses in 30 years or
if it's really a problem. How often should washing machine hoses be
replaced then?

2. If it is a valid conscern. Where can one get these things?
Specifically, where can a Canadian. My search skills seem to have
failed me today since i cannot find good references to these online.
And is it worth paying for these? I seem to recall them costing a
couple hundred bucks. But i guess the answer to that is how much do i
value everything that would get water damaged should a hose break.

Any thoughs appreciated.


i had a water heater spit out water for about 30 minutes before we saw
it.. it was only a trickle.. but if we were on vacation well the house
would have been flooded... new water heater, no problem.. when on
vacation we turned the water supply and gas supply off for the water
heater.... when we got home there was no water mess in the middle of
july at 10 PM, but we also turned off the a/c and the house was hot as
hell....for about 4 hrs....

Hmmmm,
No drain on the floor?
Tony


  #16   Report Post  
Pop Rivet
 
Posts: n/a
Default Box/Valve-More


"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...

OK, here's the one which operates on machine current flow:


http://www.accentshopping.com/store/...alve/A2CM1.asp

But, I'm still wondering what happens if a hose finally

gives up and
blows from the shock created when one of the machine's

solenoid valves
slams shuts at the end of a fill or rinse cycle.
...


I think the operative word here is "shock" created by the
valve closing. If you have a properly designed/installed
plumbing system, there are air "traps" in your pipes. Their
purpose is to absorb shocks such as you describe; air
compresses under increased pressure where water does not.
The momentum and pressure buildup is absorbed by these air
traps rather than bursting pipes and hoses, so that, to your
hoses, it's no different than if hte water were turned off
by hand.
You can add your own air traps if none are present near
the machine by simply adding about a 2 ft length of the same
diameter (or larger if preferred) vertical pipe near the
connection to the hoses.

| Air trap
|
---------- |-------------- Water supply

It must, of course, go up, not down, so that it has air in
it all the time when the water enters the pipes.
One for each water supply. As long as those remain full of
air and don't leak (as in all plumbing), then you're fine.
If you have them but they aren't working, then you may need
to bleed those water lines dry so that air can get back into
the traps.
A good test for how bad the "shock" is, is to use a water
hose and quick-action nozzle (not the twist type).
Momentarily attach one to the faucet and start the water
running, the let go of the handle and let the nozzle turn
the water off quickly: The hose shouldn't jump when the
water "slams" off. In a good system, thjere will be little
motion in the hose. If the traps aren't right, the hose
will give a fairly strong "jump" when you shut the water off
quickly. If it jumps harshly, yuou can probably dupicate
that jump just by shutting off another faucet i the house
quickly by hand - lack of air traps is pretty easy to notice
and often will even be accompanied by a thump or a bang
somewhere along the pipeline. Each faucet in the
house -should- have one of those air traps - they're usually
hidden inside a wall and not necessarily close to the
faucets, so normally one doesn't even know they are there.

Pop


  #17   Report Post  
Jeff Wisnia
 
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Pop Rivet wrote:

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...

OK, here's the one which operates on machine current flow:



http://www.accentshopping.com/store/...alve/A2CM1.asp

But, I'm still wondering what happens if a hose finally


gives up and

blows from the shock created when one of the machine's


solenoid valves

slams shuts at the end of a fill or rinse cycle.
...



I think the operative word here is "shock" created by the
valve closing. If you have a properly designed/installed
plumbing system, there are air "traps" in your pipes. Their
purpose is to absorb shocks such as you describe; air
compresses under increased pressure where water does not.
The momentum and pressure buildup is absorbed by these air
traps rather than bursting pipes and hoses, so that, to your
hoses, it's no different than if hte water were turned off
by hand.
You can add your own air traps if none are present near
the machine by simply adding about a 2 ft length of the same
diameter (or larger if preferred) vertical pipe near the
connection to the hoses.

| Air trap
|
---------- |-------------- Water supply

It must, of course, go up, not down, so that it has air in
it all the time when the water enters the pipes.
One for each water supply. As long as those remain full of
air and don't leak (as in all plumbing), then you're fine.
If you have them but they aren't working, then you may need
to bleed those water lines dry so that air can get back into
the traps.
A good test for how bad the "shock" is, is to use a water
hose and quick-action nozzle (not the twist type).
Momentarily attach one to the faucet and start the water
running, the let go of the handle and let the nozzle turn
the water off quickly: The hose shouldn't jump when the
water "slams" off. In a good system, thjere will be little
motion in the hose. If the traps aren't right, the hose
will give a fairly strong "jump" when you shut the water off
quickly. If it jumps harshly, yuou can probably dupicate
that jump just by shutting off another faucet i the house
quickly by hand - lack of air traps is pretty easy to notice
and often will even be accompanied by a thump or a bang
somewhere along the pipeline. Each faucet in the
house -should- have one of those air traps - they're usually
hidden inside a wall and not necessarily close to the
faucets, so normally one doesn't even know they are there.

Pop



Damn good post, and I wonder what percentage of US homes built in the
last 50 years have those air traps.

Are they required by code anywhere? If not, I'd bet they're mostly
installed at every faucet in architect designed homes for "cost no
option" buyers with rigid monitoring of the as built finished work.

About 30 years ago I was getting "shocks" when the solenoid valves in
our clothes washer slammed shut. I installed a couple of "shock
absorbers" which had spring loaded pistons in them, with the backside of
the pistons open to atmosphere. They were sold for that purpose and
advertised as being resistant to becoming water logged, and could be
mounted at any angle.

Those worked as advertised, but I always wondered how long it would take
before the piston seals would give out and water would start leaking out
their back ends. In my case they were out in the open, so I could spot a
leak if one occurred, but I'm not sure I'd have the guts to seal them up
in a wall.
--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
to blame it on."

  #18   Report Post  
Pop Rivet
 
Posts: n/a
Default Box/Valve-More

....
== Thanks blush NOT!

Damn good post, and I wonder what percentage of US homes

built in the
last 50 years have those air traps.

Dunno - all my experience is anecdotal and personal; not a
plumber by any means but a fair amount of home repair.
I know the codes for my nephews required them when he
built his house, located within three feet of every stand
pipe, which IS required by code.
Inside the last 50 years, we've lived in Coronado, CA and
Chicago IL, and they were required by code there.
Actually, the first time I came across them I thought
they were simply capped pipes that used to go somewhere but
got rerouted; they were the same ID as the supply pipes.
They were required in Chgo (northwest side), but don't
know whether it was a national or an urban code. I
re-plumbed an apt bldg. (6 units) and later our own home.
Our house was old (abt 100 yrs) and had them plus code
required them whether it was a repair or new construction.
That house even had pieces of actual lead pipe in it, and
the old gas pipes in the ceilings for gas lighting.
They had to be 1.5x the secondary supply ID and 24" min
length if I recall right (and I might not).
I suspect it's not a national code because it's not
required where we live now - I checked - did a bunch of
plumbing again - but only because we have well water, which
includes a large water tank which by design contains a large
amount of trapped air. A plumber friend, however, suggested
that I'd get a lot of backward movement in the pipes if I
relied solely on the well tank.
On the other hand, I've heard that they ARE required, and
I think it makes sense, because a water heater causes pipes
and water to expand/contract in such a manner as to burst
copper joints and especially plastic pipe, which is OK to
use in this area. There has to be somewhere for the water
to go if the hot water expands a bunch of pipes, fill with
water, and then the pipes contract as they cool. At an
eighth inch per ten feet, that's a lot of water that needs
some place to go. With no air traps it's going to try to
expand the pipes, and that of course can lead to ... whoosh!
Another nephew also learned the hard way to use them.
The pipes wil,l hammer like crazy anytime anyone turns off a
faucet with anything more than a gentle motion. I had him
put a 50' water hose on his outside faucet and it actually
almost stopped the hammering. After that he believed.
Without a stand pipe however, you can hear his toilet
gurgling all the way out into his driveway! Would you
believe he's, uhhh, cheap? G He puts up with the toilet
noisebut did add some air "traps".

Pop



Are they required by code anywhere? If not, I'd bet

they're mostly
installed at every faucet in architect designed homes for

"cost no
option" buyers with rigid monitoring of the as built

finished work.

About 30 years ago I was getting "shocks" when the

solenoid valves in
our clothes washer slammed shut. I installed a couple of

"shock
absorbers" which had spring loaded pistons in them, with

the backside of
the pistons open to atmosphere. They were sold for that

purpose and
advertised as being resistant to becoming water logged,

and could be
mounted at any angle.

Those worked as advertised, but I always wondered how long

it would take
before the piston seals would give out and water would

start leaking out
their back ends. In my case they were out in the open, so

I could spot a
leak if one occurred, but I'm not sure I'd have the guts

to seal them up
in a wall.
--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've

thought of someone
to blame it on."



  #19   Report Post  
MLD
 
Posts: n/a
Default Box/Valve-More

The only problem is that over time (a variable) the air will be absorbed
into the water nullifying the shock absorber effect. To be long term, the
best solution is to have something that separates the air from the liquid--a
diaphragm or bladder such as found in most accumulators.
MLD
"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...


Pop Rivet wrote:

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...

OK, here's the one which operates on machine current flow:




http://www.accentshopping.com/store/...alve/A2CM1.asp

But, I'm still wondering what happens if a hose finally


gives up and

blows from the shock created when one of the machine's


solenoid valves

slams shuts at the end of a fill or rinse cycle.
...



I think the operative word here is "shock" created by the
valve closing. If you have a properly designed/installed
plumbing system, there are air "traps" in your pipes. Their
purpose is to absorb shocks such as you describe; air
compresses under increased pressure where water does not.
The momentum and pressure buildup is absorbed by these air
traps rather than bursting pipes and hoses, so that, to your
hoses, it's no different than if hte water were turned off
by hand.
You can add your own air traps if none are present near
the machine by simply adding about a 2 ft length of the same
diameter (or larger if preferred) vertical pipe near the
connection to the hoses.

| Air trap
|
---------- |-------------- Water supply

It must, of course, go up, not down, so that it has air in
it all the time when the water enters the pipes.
One for each water supply. As long as those remain full of
air and don't leak (as in all plumbing), then you're fine.
If you have them but they aren't working, then you may need
to bleed those water lines dry so that air can get back into
the traps.
A good test for how bad the "shock" is, is to use a water
hose and quick-action nozzle (not the twist type).
Momentarily attach one to the faucet and start the water
running, the let go of the handle and let the nozzle turn
the water off quickly: The hose shouldn't jump when the
water "slams" off. In a good system, thjere will be little
motion in the hose. If the traps aren't right, the hose
will give a fairly strong "jump" when you shut the water off
quickly. If it jumps harshly, yuou can probably dupicate
that jump just by shutting off another faucet i the house
quickly by hand - lack of air traps is pretty easy to notice
and often will even be accompanied by a thump or a bang
somewhere along the pipeline. Each faucet in the
house -should- have one of those air traps - they're usually
hidden inside a wall and not necessarily close to the
faucets, so normally one doesn't even know they are there.

Pop



Damn good post, and I wonder what percentage of US homes built in the
last 50 years have those air traps.

Are they required by code anywhere? If not, I'd bet they're mostly
installed at every faucet in architect designed homes for "cost no
option" buyers with rigid monitoring of the as built finished work.

About 30 years ago I was getting "shocks" when the solenoid valves in
our clothes washer slammed shut. I installed a couple of "shock
absorbers" which had spring loaded pistons in them, with the backside of
the pistons open to atmosphere. They were sold for that purpose and
advertised as being resistant to becoming water logged, and could be
mounted at any angle.

Those worked as advertised, but I always wondered how long it would take
before the piston seals would give out and water would start leaking out
their back ends. In my case they were out in the open, so I could spot a
leak if one occurred, but I'm not sure I'd have the guts to seal them up
in a wall.
--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
to blame it on."



  #20   Report Post  
Jeff Wisnia
 
Posts: n/a
Default Box/Valve to prevent washing machine hose break and flooding?

Dave Harnish wrote:

If I may add my $.02: in the interest of keeping life simple, I've
always recommended, for some 32 years now, that the washer
supply faucet(s) always be turned off when not using the washer.
Really not a big deal, especially if you have them installed where
they're easily reached.

Thanks to a Mr. Murphy, washer hoses always seem to burst
when you're away on vacation.'Worst one I remember was in
a nice split-level in Lancaster County, PA. Sure enough, the
homeowners were gone for two weeks. Neighbor noticed water
coming out from under the garage door! Water co. came and
turned off the supply at the curb.


snipped

Deja vu all over again....

Our next door neighbors moved to a smaller home in the next state when
their kids grew up (Do your own kids ever really "grow up"?) and were
all out of the nest. They put the house on the market with a realtor and
left it unoccupied.

They demonstrated their ignorance of what could happen by not turning
off the water and/or having a low temperature alarm as part of their
already centrally monitored fire/burglary security system. I was tempted
to use the term stupidity in that sentence, but they were nice neighbors
for 18 years, and after all, the husband is a doctor and everyone knows
doctors (think they) know everything. G

I looked out the window in January of last year and saw three thick
dirty brown ice floes running down one of their garage doors:

http://home.comcast.net/~jwisnia18/jeff/freeze.jpg

The oil heating system had failed and it was my sad job to call my
ex-neighbors and give them the bad news.

There was a huge amount of water damage to the house, and fifteen months
later it's still unoccupied and being worked on every day. To their
credit, they've kept up the property nicely and by maintaining the
landscaping contractors they's been using when they lived there. Rumor
has it that their homeowners insurance company gave them a rough time
because of a clause limiting "abandonment" without proper monitoring,
but I'm afraid to ask about that.

Jeff

--
Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"My luck is so bad that if I bought a cemetery, people would stop dying."

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