I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all
I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only
question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore?
(If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!)

I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right
now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.)
--
8^)~~~ Sue (remove the x to e-mail)
~~~~~~
"I reserve the absolute right to be smarter
today than I was yesterday." -Adlai Stevenson

http://home.earthlink.net/~sme617

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:14:43 GMT, Suzie-Q wrote:

I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all
I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only
question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore?
(If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!)

I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right
now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.)

Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box, and
connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one). It won't
be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded, which is
unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It won't be any
worse for grounded appliances than using those three prong/two prong
adapters.


--
- Mike

Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.

"Mike Ruskai" wrote in message
.earthlink.net...
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:14:43 GMT, Suzie-Q wrote:

I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all
I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only
question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore?
(If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!)

I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right
now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.)

Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box, and
connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one). It won't
be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded, which is
unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It won't be any
worse for grounded appliances than using those three prong/two prong
adapters.

good way to get the next owner to curse you, expecting a 3 prong outlet to
be properly wired with a ground.

Mike Ruskai wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:14:43 GMT, Suzie-Q wrote:


I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all
I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only
question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore?
(If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!)

I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right
now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.)


Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box, and
connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one). It won't
be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded, which is
unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It won't be any
worse for grounded appliances than using those three prong/two prong
adapters.


--
- Mike

Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.




If you do that, please epoxy screws or something into the ground holes
on that outlet as a warning to everyone that it's *not* grounded.

Jeff

--
Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"My luck is so bad that if I bought a cemetery, people would stop dying."

"Charles Spitzer" wrote in
:


"Mike Ruskai" wrote in message
t.earthlink.net...
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:14:43 GMT, Suzie-Q wrote:

I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but
all I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My
only question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore?
(If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!)

I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right
now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.)

Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box,
and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one).
It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded,
which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It
won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three
prong/two prong adapters.

good way to get the next owner to curse you, expecting a 3 prong outlet
to be properly wired with a ground.


I'm in that situation now One of the do-it-yourself wiring books I have
suggests using a GFI outlet in the absence of a proper ground. Does any
electrician type have an opinion on that?

Thanks,

Pick

Mike Ruskai wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:14:43 GMT, Suzie-Q wrote:

I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but
all I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My
only question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore?
(If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!)

I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right
now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.)

Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box,
and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one).
It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded,
which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It
won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three
prong/two prong adapters.

Yea, that's what Bubal would do. It also happens to be really foolish
and dangerous. They make those rules because people can get killed.

They still make the old style outlet. You may need to visit an electric
supply house to find one. Even medium size cities usually have one. They
supply the pros.

If you check to make sure the box is grounded, it may be, then you can
use a modern outlet. But PLEASE Suzie, don't listen to Mike, if you are not
sure it has a ground, don't take the chance, do it right.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

Two prong outlets are sold because you cannot and must not
put a three prong receptacle in a box that is not grounded.
Yes, what Mike Ruskai posted is completely irresponsible and
unacceptable.

Two choices. First, have a friend in any big city mail you
the two prong receptacle. They cost well less than $1. They
are sold in any Home Depot, Loews, Sears Hardware, etc. Two
prong outlets are that commonly available.

Second, install a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter Duplex
Receptacle:
http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS...D=9876&pos=n04
Electrical code specifically lists the second solution -
which is also a safer solution. A sticky label, also required
by code, is provided warning that ground does not exist.
Attach label to GFI faceplate.

Both solutions are acceptable and meet quite specific code
requirements. If someone was hurt and insurance company found
what Mike Ruskai recommended, then insurance company probably
would not compensate or protect you. Then electrical
inspector would make a major evaluation of your building
causing even more money that must be spent immediately on an
electrician. Problems go on and on only because Mike could
not even appreciate a simple code requirement. Do not do as
Mike has posted. Friends in any city or the GFI are two valid
and safe solutions.

Suzie-Q wrote:
I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all
I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only
question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore?
(If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!)

I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right
now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.)

www.graybar.com
or
www.grainger.com

Both are authorized Leviton distributors. Part# is 223-I

I = Ivory and W = White

No need for the long drive. Both sites have 1-800#s if you have any
difficulties ordering online.


"Suzie-Q" wrote in message
...
I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all
I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only
question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore?
(If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!)

I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right
now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.)
--
8^)~~~ Sue (remove the x to e-mail)
~~~~~~
"I reserve the absolute right to be smarter
today than I was yesterday." -Adlai Stevenson

http://home.earthlink.net/~sme617

GFI outlets do not work without a proper ground. (The "test" button
trips them, but the plug in tester will not). I know this because I
failed a CO because a GFI was on an ungrounded circuit (knob and tube).
I would up having to ground the whole circuit (which was wired with
14/2...just that the ground was "floating").

Jay

Pick wrote:


I'm in that situation now One of the do-it-yourself wiring books I have
suggests using a GFI outlet in the absence of a proper ground. Does any
electrician type have an opinion on that?

Thanks,

Pick

Jay wrote:
GFI outlets do not work without a proper ground. (The "test" button
trips them, but the plug in tester will not). I know this because I
failed a CO because a GFI was on an ungrounded circuit (knob and tube).
I would up having to ground the whole circuit (which was wired with
14/2...just that the ground was "floating").

Jay



What's a "CO"?

GFCI's work just fine without a ground. The NEC specifically allows you to
use them without a ground, but you're supposed to put a sticker on them
that says "NO EQUIPMENT GROUND". It doesn't have to pass that plug in
tester thing.

-Bob

zxcvbob wrote:

What's a "CO"?

Certificate of occupancy. What one needs before one can move into a new =
home.

--=20
dadiOH
_____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.0...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
____________________________

In article , Suzie-Q wrote:
I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all
I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only
question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore?

Yes, and most hardware stores will have them, even in small towns.

If your local hardware stores don't have them, try a farm supply store. Or ask
at the local Farm Bureau Co-op (they probably won't sell them, but they
probably *will* be able to tell you who does).

On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 00:34:19 GMT, Joseph Meehan wrote:

Mike Ruskai wrote:

Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box,
and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one).
It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded,
which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It
won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three
prong/two prong adapters.

Yea, that's what Bubal would do. It also happens to be really foolish
and dangerous. They make those rules because people can get killed.

It's neither foolish nor dangerous. It's simply practical, and, as I
said, is precisely as safe as using plug adapters, which is what would
happen otherwise if a three-prong device needed to be plugged in.

The maximum reasonable paranoia would simply dictate that the outlet be
marked as not grounded. Your reaction is completely inappropriate and
even laughable.


--
- Mike

Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 19:39:35 -0400, Jeff Wisnia wrote:

If you do that, please epoxy screws or something into the ground holes
on that outlet as a warning to everyone that it's *not* grounded.

Yeah, that's much more sensible than simply marking the outlet as not
grounded.


--
- Mike

Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 15:00:21 -0700, Charles Spitzer wrote:

"Mike Ruskai" wrote in message

[snip]
Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box, and
connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one). It won't
be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded, which is
unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It won't be any
worse for grounded appliances than using those three prong/two prong
adapters.

good way to get the next owner to curse you, expecting a 3 prong outlet to
be properly wired with a ground.

There are countless ways to annoy possible future owners of a house.
Unless a sale is imminent, worrying about future owners is no way to
dictate how to handle a simple problem like replacing a busted outlet. A
sale in this day and age would almost certainly be contingent upon
updating the wiring of the house, and no competent home inspector is going
to think one three-prong outlet in the middle of many two-prong outlets is
actually grounded.

There's no non-pedantic reason to hunt all over for an old outlet.


--
- Mike

Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.

Mike Ruskai wrote:
.....

The maximum reasonable paranoia would simply dictate that the outlet
be marked as not grounded. Your reaction is completely inappropriate
and even laughable.

Whatever, Buba.

I just hope your advice (or actions) never cause someone harm.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

In article ,
Jay wrote:
GFI outlets do not work without a proper ground.
...snipped...

Yes they do
--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

According to Jay :
GFI outlets do not work without a proper ground. (The "test" button
trips them, but the plug in tester will not). I know this because I
failed a CO because a GFI was on an ungrounded circuit (knob and tube).

The inspector was either ignorant of the NEC, or, you misunderstood why
you failed inspection.

The NEC (and CEC) _explicitly_ approves GFCIs on ungrounded circuits for
renovation/repair work if you don't have a real ground.

They work just fine without grounds.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Mike Ruskai :
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 19:39:35 -0400, Jeff Wisnia wrote:

If you do that, please epoxy screws or something into the ground holes
on that outlet as a warning to everyone that it's *not* grounded.

Yeah, that's much more sensible than simply marking the outlet as not
grounded.

Right. Which is why the NEC explicitly disallows that.

The CEC used to recommend filling the third prong. Not anymore.

Install GFCIs, use the "not grounded" stickers that come with them and
stick 'em to all of the outlets you've protected with the GFCI.

That's all you need to do.

[Aside from NOT interconnecting grounds on outlets that are on a 2 wire
circuit.]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to w_tom :

Second, install a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter Duplex
Receptacle:
http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS...D=9876&pos=n04
Electrical code specifically lists the second solution -
which is also a safer solution. A sticky label, also required
by code, is provided warning that ground does not exist.
Attach label to GFI faceplate.

Once you install a GFCI outlet on a groundless circuit, you _are_
permitted to install/replace with ordinary three prong outlets
downstream of it (the GFCI itself is three prong obviously ;-),
provided:

a) you label them as GFCI-protected without ground
(stickers come with GFCIs for that purpose)
b) do not interconnect the grounds on any of the outlets.

I would not install a ground strap from a 3 wire outlet to the box:

a) it's pointless in most cases (often already accomplished by strap of
outlet on a metal box.)

b) May increase risk of ground wire interconnect in multiple outlets
(see (b) above) (ie: cable armor).

The ground prong in a groundless circuit is _supposed_ to be completely
un-connected. Half-measures make it more dangerous, not less.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Mike Ruskai wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 00:34:19 GMT, Joseph Meehan wrote:

Mike Ruskai wrote:

Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box,
and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one).
It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded,
which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It
won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three
prong/two prong adapters.

Yea, that's what Bubal would do. It also happens to be really
foolish and dangerous. They make those rules because people can get
killed.

It's neither foolish nor dangerous. It's simply practical, and, as I
said, is precisely as safe as using plug adapters, which is what would
happen otherwise if a three-prong device needed to be plugged in.

The maximum reasonable paranoia would simply dictate that the outlet
be marked as not grounded. Your reaction is completely inappropriate
and even laughable.

Stop by your local fire department and ask them if they think it is
paranoia.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

zxcvbob wrote:


What's a "CO"?

Certificate of Occupancy (as someone already answered). In my case I
needed it to sell a home.


GFCI's work just fine without a ground. The NEC specifically allows you
to use them without a ground, but you're supposed to put a sticker on
them that says "NO EQUIPMENT GROUND". It doesn't have to pass that plug
in tester thing.


A GFI in our bathroom failed with the "tester" because there was no
ground. I grounded the outlet with a clip-lead to a copper pipe, and
the GFI worked fine.

So, in theory, I agree that a ground is not needed. I'm not sure that
is true in practice. And the best response for a Code Inspector is
"Yes, Sir". :+)

Do they make "two prong" GFCIs? I guess the GFI "breakers" are the best
answer (except for the trip to the basement everytime one trips).

Jay

Mike Ruskai wrote:



There's no non-pedantic reason to hunt all over for an old outlet.


89 cents for a two-pronger at home depot. I replaced two of them.
Mostly out of fear of lawsuits from someone who buys the house.

Jay

Chris Lewis wrote:

According to Jay :

GFI outlets do not work without a proper ground. (The "test" button
trips them, but the plug in tester will not). I know this because I
failed a CO because a GFI was on an ungrounded circuit (knob and tube).


The inspector was either ignorant of the NEC, or, you misunderstood why
you failed inspection.

The NEC (and CEC) _explicitly_ approves GFCIs on ungrounded circuits for
renovation/repair work if you don't have a real ground.

They work just fine without grounds.

OK. Let me correct this. The "tester" failed to trip the GFI. Maybe
it would work if you jammed a fork in the slots or something. I wasn't
about to argue with the Code Inspector for a $10 fix.

Jay

First your created a serious human safety problem. No wire
must connect to a pipe to dump electricity in that pipe. The
electrical inspection probably failed because an outlet
without ground did not have the necessary (code required)
label "No equipment ground". So instead, you created a threat
to human life.

GFI works when test button is pressed because that is how a
GFI works. Electrical inspector simply discovered a missing
ground on a three prong plug without any indication of that
missing ground - a code violation. He did not fail the GFI.
He failed the missing safety ground. Now for that pipe
problem. Again, you have created a human safety problem
especially for people standing in water in a bathroom.

The idea is not to pass the inspection. The idea is to make
a safe house.

Jay wrote:
A GFI in our bathroom failed with the "tester" because there was no
ground. I grounded the outlet with a clip-lead to a copper pipe,
and the GFI worked fine.

So, in theory, I agree that a ground is not needed. I'm not sure
that is true in practice. And the best response for a Code
Inspector is "Yes, Sir". :+)

Do they make "two prong" GFCIs? I guess the GFI "breakers" are the
best answer (except for the trip to the basement everytime one
trips).

Mike Ruskai wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 00:34:19 GMT, Joseph Meehan wrote:


Mike Ruskai wrote:


Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box,
and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one).
It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded,
which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It
won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three
prong/two prong adapters.

Yea, that's what Bubal would do. It also happens to be really foolish
and dangerous. They make those rules because people can get killed.


It's neither foolish nor dangerous. It's simply practical, and, as I
said, is precisely as safe as using plug adapters, which is what would
happen otherwise if a three-prong device needed to be plugged in.

"Precisely as safe", huh? I suppose so....it's "precisely as safe" as
some dumbo using an adaptor without establishing that the coverplate
screw is grounded and then connecting the adaptor's ground lug to it.
Three wire cords and grounded outlets were developed to protect users
from internal insulation failures in metal bodied tools and appliances.
They wouldn't have made that transition if there wasn't a growing
history of electrocutions from those kind of failures.

What you've overlooked is this: Someone (Me for example.) who's taken
the trouble to learn and understand why they started making grounded
outlets and tools and appliances with ground leads in their cords could
be snookered into believing they're "protected" when they're not, fooled
by that ungrounded 3-prong outlet you seem to think is no big deal.
That's not quite as bad as knowingly locking a door marked "Fire Exit"
from the outside, but from my point of view it's in the same vein.

Your responses lead me to the inescapable conclusion that your entire
alimentary tract has somehow become reversed...You'd profit from having
that condition corrected.

Jeff

snipped

--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
to blame it on."

They work just fine without grounds.

OK. Let me correct this. The "tester" failed to trip the GFI. Maybe
it would work if you jammed a fork in the slots or something. I wasn't
about to argue with the Code Inspector for a $10 fix.

Ah.. That's different. The test-device failed to trip the GFCI
because it tried to produce a ground-fault to the ground plug.
The GFCI didn't trip because there was no fault.

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:14:43 GMT, Suzie-Q
wrote:

I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

That's pretty much the situation I'm in as well. My house was built
in the early 1920s and the original portion has all 2-prong outlets
and an old fusebox. The new 1960s addition has a breaker box on the
other side of the house and all 3-prong grounded outlets.

One of these days I'd love to run a new sub-panel to my detached
garage/worshop, but it would have to be off the new breaker box and
that's a HELL of a long run for wiring. The current power supply is
run off the fusebox and there's nothing I can change there without
replacing the entire box, which I'll do eventually but it's very low
priority.

Wish I had a solution for the problem.

As far as your problem is concerned, you can replace the 2-prong
outlet with a GFCI that is designed to be non-grounded, they are
available at any home center. They do still make 2-prong but they
seem to be pretty hard to come by in some areas.

w_tom wrote:

First your created a serious human safety problem. No wire
must connect to a pipe to dump electricity in that pipe.

But that is what our breaker box does. The ground connects to the water
main. It was like that when we moved in. Is it now code to drive a rod
into the ground for an approved ground?


GFI works when test button is pressed because that is how a
GFI works. Electrical inspector simply discovered a missing
ground on a three prong plug without any indication of that
missing ground - a code violation. He did not fail the GFI.
He failed the missing safety ground.

I bought a tester as well. It failed to trip (in addition to indicating
the missing ground.) Fixing the ground fixed both problems. Maybe the
testers isn't worth a damn, but it certainly showed more than the "test"
button on the GFI box.



Now for that pipe
problem. Again, you have created a human safety problem
especially for people standing in water in a bathroom.

I grounded a previously ungrounded circuit. The 14/2 wiring was
effectively 14/0 (floating ground). The ground no longer floats and
goes to earth ground through half inch copper pipe. I would think I
made the entire circuit safer in that now all the fixture housings are
grounded to earth ground rather than floating.


The idea is not to pass the inspection. The idea is to make
a safe house.


The prime directive was to make the house safe. Passing the inspection
was a goal, however.

Thanks for your comments,
Jay

According to Jay :

Chris Lewis wrote:

According to Jay :

GFI outlets do not work without a proper ground. (The "test" button
trips them, but the plug in tester will not). I know this because I
failed a CO because a GFI was on an ungrounded circuit (knob and tube).

The inspector was either ignorant of the NEC, or, you misunderstood why
you failed inspection.

The NEC (and CEC) _explicitly_ approves GFCIs on ungrounded circuits for
renovation/repair work if you don't have a real ground.

They work just fine without grounds.

OK. Let me correct this. The "tester" failed to trip the GFI. Maybe
it would work if you jammed a fork in the slots or something. I wasn't
about to argue with the Code Inspector for a $10 fix.

If the "tester" the inspector used "tested" the GFI by shunting current
to the ground prong, there's two possibilities:

1) The inspector did not take into account the _clear_ wording
in the NEC that permits three prong GFCIs (without any ground
whatsoever) as a substitute for grounding.
2) He tested another outlet, and faulted you for not having the
sticker.

There's a third possibility: he figured that getting a "real ground" was
sufficiently easy that you _should_ do it anyway. The fact that you could
for $10 means it was worth it.

I suggest you peruse http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-...ection-35.html
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Test button on GFI makes GFI respond to the only thing GFI
sees. Yes, the ground is helpful to make receptacle safer for
human. But a new human safety threat has been created that
probably cannot be found by future owners.

Again, never dump electricity into a pipe. The connection
from breaker box to water pipe is to remove electricity (a
fault) from that pipe (water pipe connection must also be five
feet from where pipe contacts earth ground). Since early
1990s, code requires a dedicated ground to earth. This is
different from safety ground to receptacles. Earth and safety
grounds are interconnected, but they serve different
functions.

Why did inspector fail that GFI? Because it had no safety
ground AND did not say it had no safety ground. So instead of
connecting to a safety ground or instead of installing that
required label, you dumped electricity into the pipes. You
did not fix the problem. You cured a symptom.

What happens when the plumber replaces metal pipe with
plastic. You must assume that will happen because he might do
just that. Now we have an even worse safety problem. Failed
appliance dumping electricity into a pipe. Electricity finds
no path to breaker box, so circuit breaker does not trip.
Human, standing in bathtub water, touches faucet and dies.
All because the symptom of a problem was cured rather than
problem cured.

Never dump electricity into pipes - a human safety problem.

Value and purpose of tester: it can find a failure but will
never prove wiring is correct. For example, a 36 AWG sliver
could fall down and make a ground connection. Tester would
declare ground as OK. But ground is not. When that safety
ground is necessary, instead the sliver vaporizes or
disconnects. Tester does not report a good condition. Tester
only reports failures.

Test button on GFI tests GFI operation. Tester's test button
tests for a missing safety ground. Each button looks for a
different failure. It does sound rather complicated. But
this is directly traceable to a problem created before
1962(?): 14 gauge wire without the necessary safety ground.
Code offers simple (kludge) solution. GFI with the attached
"no equipment ground" label. GFI with label is safer than GFI
safety ground electricity dumped into copper water pipe.

BTW, if you think routing a safety ground wire cannot be
done, the you have not seen why electrician have all those
fancy tools and tricks. The best solution remains a safety
ground wire to that outlet. Some interconnected appliances
may be intermittent or damaged if that equipment ground is not
provided - a concept that may be beyond the scope of this
original problem. But another reason why that attached "no
ground" provides useful information.


Jay wrote:
w_tom wrote:
First your created a serious human safety problem. No wire
must connect to a pipe to dump electricity in that pipe.

But that is what our breaker box does. The ground connects to
the water main. It was like that when we moved in. Is it now
code to drive a rod into the ground for an approved ground?

GFI works when test button is pressed because that is how a
GFI works. Electrical inspector simply discovered a missing
ground on a three prong plug without any indication of that
missing ground - a code violation. He did not fail the GFI.
He failed the missing safety ground.

I bought a tester as well. It failed to trip (in addition to
indicating the missing ground.) Fixing the ground fixed both
problems. Maybe the testers isn't worth a damn, but it
certainly showed more than the "test" button on the GFI box.

Now for that pipe
problem. Again, you have created a human safety problem
especially for people standing in water in a bathroom.

I grounded a previously ungrounded circuit. The 14/2 wiring was
effectively 14/0 (floating ground). The ground no longer floats and
goes to earth ground through half inch copper pipe. I would think I
made the entire circuit safer in that now all the fixture housings are
grounded to earth ground rather than floating.

The idea is not to pass the inspection. The idea is to make
a safe house.

The prime directive was to make the house safe. Passing the
inspection was a goal, however.