I am looking for a rough estimate on how much I should expect to pay a
contractor to install 3 LVL joists (1 3/4" x 7 1/4" x 12') to beef up
existing structure.

This would be to add additional support to the first floor. Working
from a lighted, clean basement. All sheetrock has been removed. All
wires are out of the way. All nails (that were in the way of the
proposed new joists) have been trimmed off. One joist will be a
sistering joist, the other two will be sistered together and sit one
span to the right of the first.

From what I can see, this is about as straight forward as installing a
joist can get. LVL stock is around $2.50/ft. I am just trying to get a
feel for prices (Boston area) so I know a contractor is in range with
his total cost.

Thats the point of getting bids isnt it?

If its that well prepared why not hang the joists yourself????

Steve


"MS" wrote in message
...
I am looking for a rough estimate on how much I should expect to pay a
contractor to install 3 LVL joists (1 3/4" x 7 1/4" x 12') to beef up
existing structure.

This would be to add additional support to the first floor. Working
from a lighted, clean basement. All sheetrock has been removed. All
wires are out of the way. All nails (that were in the way of the
proposed new joists) have been trimmed off. One joist will be a
sistering joist, the other two will be sistered together and sit one
span to the right of the first.

From what I can see, this is about as straight forward as installing a
joist can get. LVL stock is around $2.50/ft. I am just trying to get a
feel for prices (Boston area) so I know a contractor is in range with
his total cost.

This would be to add additional support to the first floor.

Are you adding a lally column or just sistering the present joists?

Joe

According to MS :
I am looking for a rough estimate on how much I should expect to pay a
contractor to install 3 LVL joists (1 3/4" x 7 1/4" x 12') to beef up
existing structure.

I think you can probably figure this out yourself. How long do you
_think_ it should take, double it, take your local carpenter hourly rate
(times however many people it should take), and multiply it together. Then
add the cost of the LVLs and whatever else you think they'd need.

The trick is, how are they going to get the joists _in_? Do they have to
cut holes in the exterior frame of the house? Fuss around with the supports?
Do they have to rebuild anything you've already taken apart? Do they have
to remove the floor covering above in order to fasten the subfloor to the
joists?

If it were my first floor kitchen that was getting a new joist, it'd take
me perhaps two hours by myself (given the same starting conditions as yours).
45 minutes to roll back and secure the vinyl flooring, an hour to slide
the joist in, fasten it down, and the last 15 minutes unrolling the vinyl.

In contrast, the hall floor would take considerably longer.

Plus days of planning following months of procrastination ;-)
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On 24 Mar 2004 19:15:07 GMT, (Chris Lewis)
wrote:

Plus days of planning following months of procrastination ;-)

Thanks for your comments, everyone! The above is one of the most
important considerations!

Aside from that, someone asked if I am adding lally columns under the
new joists. The answer is - no. Access into the building with
materials is easy. Fitting the joist in, might be more difficult -
I've never done it, so I don't know - because I suspect that squeezing
the joist in between the subfloor and where the joist rests on the
beam and the foundation might require some persuasion. It looks like a
tight fit and I'd prefer that someone with experience do it. Just
trying to be prepared for when the contractors show up to give me a
bid...






According to MS :
I am looking for a rough estimate on how much I should expect to pay a
contractor to install 3 LVL joists (1 3/4" x 7 1/4" x 12') to beef up
existing structure.

I think you can probably figure this out yourself. How long do you
_think_ it should take, double it, take your local carpenter hourly rate
(times however many people it should take), and multiply it together. Then
add the cost of the LVLs and whatever else you think they'd need.

The trick is, how are they going to get the joists _in_? Do they have to
cut holes in the exterior frame of the house? Fuss around with the supports?
Do they have to rebuild anything you've already taken apart? Do they have
to remove the floor covering above in order to fasten the subfloor to the
joists?


--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

"MS" wrote in message
...
I am looking for a rough estimate on how much I should expect to pay a
contractor to install 3 LVL joists (1 3/4" x 7 1/4" x 12') to beef up
existing structure.

This would be to add additional support to the first floor. Working
from a lighted, clean basement. All sheetrock has been removed. All
wires are out of the way. All nails (that were in the way of the
proposed new joists) have been trimmed off. One joist will be a
sistering joist, the other two will be sistered together and sit one
span to the right of the first.

From what I can see, this is about as straight forward as installing a
joist can get. LVL stock is around $2.50/ft. I am just trying to get a
feel for prices (Boston area) so I know a contractor is in range with
his total cost.

You left out one big detail- is there a way to get the joists up in the hole
on top of whatever is holding them up? (ie, centerline beam and sill plate).
You can only fudge reality so much . If there is clear space over centerline
beam to shove joist in flat, then pull it back over sill plate and rotate it
to a vertical position and shim it, it may not be too bad. If floor has to
be jacked square as part of install, you will also be manuvering around
that. I am assuming there is a way to get a 12-footer into the room.

Why do you want LVL? Good stuff, but sounds like it may be cheaper to do
with dimensional, and still meet your needs. And if you have already done
all the prep work, why do you need a contractor? Just buy the wood and put
it in yourself.

aem sends...

(MS) wrote in message ...
On 24 Mar 2004 19:15:07 GMT, (Chris Lewis)
wrote:

Plus days of planning following months of procrastination ;-)

Thanks for your comments, everyone! The above is one of the most
important considerations!

Aside from that, someone asked if I am adding lally columns under the
new joists. The answer is - no. Access into the building with
materials is easy. Fitting the joist in, might be more difficult -
I've never done it, so I don't know - because I suspect that squeezing
the joist in between the subfloor and where the joist rests on the
beam and the foundation might require some persuasion. It looks like a
tight fit and I'd prefer that someone with experience do it. Just
trying to be prepared for when the contractors show up to give me a
bid...




snip

Getting a full size joist in from below is probably impossible without
the following trick that I resorted to.

Notch both ends of the new joist so you can put it place -flat- and
then rotate to upright, now drive shims under your notched areas to
tighten in place. It doesn't take all that much of a notch.

Harry K

According to Harry K :
(MS) wrote in message ...
On 24 Mar 2004 19:15:07 GMT, (Chris Lewis)
wrote:
... Fitting the joist in, might be more difficult -
I've never done it, so I don't know - because I suspect that squeezing
the joist in between the subfloor and where the joist rests on the
beam and the foundation might require some persuasion. It looks like a
tight fit and I'd prefer that someone with experience do it. Just
trying to be prepared for when the contractors show up to give me a
bid...

Getting a full size joist in from below is probably impossible without
the following trick that I resorted to.

Notch both ends of the new joist so you can put it place -flat- and
then rotate to upright, now drive shims under your notched areas to
tighten in place. It doesn't take all that much of a notch.

I believe that's the usual trick.

Much depends on the support ends.

_If_ you can push the joist far enough into one end that you can get the
other end up and in.

Ie: my kitchen floor - one end of the joists is on a free standing steel
beam, fully open either side.

If you can't (both ends boxed), you have to resort cutting the joist
shorter (one wall width plus span length, plus a diagonal fudge factor),
which means that the ends of the joists aren't fully bedded into the wall.
Which isn't optimal. Sistering to an existing beam is fine, however - a
little less end support makes no difference if you're just trying to stiffen
it up.

I had to replace a ring joist, a floor joist, and add a center
beam under the joists a few years ago.

T'was easy.

Fortunately, it was a shed and I just jacked it up to give enough room ;-)

However, I goofed. I put the center beam in before I realized I had to add
in a new floor joist. I had to notch the new floor joist in the middle to get it
in rotated up into sistering with the mostly rotted out joist. Then wedged the
notch.

As a question for the OP - are you doing this for flor sag or floor shake?

If shake, you may consider that adding joists won't help much. It needs
bridging instead.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...

If you can't (both ends boxed), you have to resort cutting the joist
shorter (one wall width plus span length, plus a diagonal fudge factor),
which means that the ends of the joists aren't fully bedded into the wall.
Which isn't optimal. Sistering to an existing beam is fine, however - a
little less end support makes no difference if you're just trying to
stiffen
it up.


This is a good point. What is it that we are trying to beef up here, the
shear strength at the bearing ends of the joists, or the bending strength
(read deflection) at the mid span of the joists under new larger loads than
in the original design? If we feel comfortable with the shear and bearing
strength of the original joists under the new conditions, and are only
concerned about bending strength, then there is really no need to bear the
sisters on the supports - assuming of course that the sister joists project
far enough into the low bending stress zones at the ends of the joists and
they can be fastened properly to the original joists to share the load in
bending. As always, it is best to have a professional look at the existing
conditions and evaluate the situation for safety... but this could be a
cost saving measure if found to be a safe alternative. One word of caution,
however... If you are not planning to have an engineer evaluate your
situation, disregard my comments and do what must be done to bear the
sisters on the supports.

Good luck!
Giz

According to Giznawz :
"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...

If you can't (both ends boxed), you have to resort cutting the joist
shorter (one wall width plus span length, plus a diagonal fudge factor),
which means that the ends of the joists aren't fully bedded into the wall.
Which isn't optimal. Sistering to an existing beam is fine, however - a
little less end support makes no difference if you're just trying to
stiffen
it up.

This is a good point. What is it that we are trying to beef up here, the
shear strength at the bearing ends of the joists, or the bending strength
(read deflection) at the mid span of the joists under new larger loads than
in the original design?

I'm pretty sure that the OP is doing this to eliminate sag problems,
_not_ to improve overall load bearing. This is a "cosmetic" thing, not
a structural thing.

If he's doing it for "shake" problems (stepping on the floor causes the
fridge to bang off the wall and the glassware to rattle), it's bridging
he needs, not more joists.

If we feel comfortable with the shear and bearing
strength of the original joists under the new conditions, and are only
concerned about bending strength, then there is really no need to bear the
sisters on the supports - assuming of course that the sister joists project
far enough into the low bending stress zones at the ends of the joists and
they can be fastened properly to the original joists to share the load in
bending.

Right,

.... if he's sistering joists in for sag problems, the ends don't have to
bear on the supports at all...

Just needs proper "overlap nailing" patterns (see building code/engineering
tables on sistering/splicing/multiple board joists), and have the new joist
ends reasonably close to the old joist ends. Though, it'd be smart to
put bridging in to prevent any tendency for the final assembly to
"roll".

If it's purely for sag, I'd stick a post jack in the center of the existing
joist to get it into (or slightly above) line. Then sister in a second
joist, crown edge _up_, with the proper nailing pattern. The new joists would
end just at the wall face.

Put in a "box bridge" at either end.

Then lower the jack.

As always, it is best to have a professional look at the existing
conditions and evaluate the situation for safety... but this could be a
cost saving measure if found to be a safe alternative. One word of caution,
however... If you are not planning to have an engineer evaluate your
situation, disregard my comments and do what must be done to bear the
sisters on the supports.

OP? _Why_ are you installing these extra joists anyway?
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

I'd like to put the additional joists in to fix two problems:

1) Some sagging - not severe
2) A load bearing wall in the original construction was placed
parallel to, but between the span of two joists. The wall is supported
by the subflooring now. This is where the double joist will go.

The more I read (thank you for the comments, everyone!) the more I see
this is nothing I need a contractor for.

There is an easy way to get 12' joists into the basement. The
foundation end and the center beam end have clearance for the new
joists, just like for the existing joists.

I plan to use screw jacks to relieve the stress on the nearby joists,
while the new ones are going in.

My initial concern - and reason for seeking a contractor - was how to
slide the joists into their end points. I suspected that a notch is
the only way. I could see how the screwposts can be used to get
additional clearance in the span, but the endpoints are fixed in
height.

Just so I am understanding this correctly: The "notch" should be the
removal of about 1/8" of the joist height, along about 3" of its
length, from both ends. If correct, then the only q. that remains is:
top of the joist, or bottom? Both ways seem possible, but shimming
would be required if the joist is notched on the bottom (the ends that
sit on the beam get the shims). I am not crazy about that idea and
plan on attempting guiding the joist in with the top ends (crown side)
notched for clearance.

The other area where a notch might go is on the leading top edge, in
the direction of the joist roll, if that's what ends up needing to
happen to get the joist in.

Am I on the right track?

On 25 Mar 2004 21:37:46 GMT, (Chris Lewis)
wrote:

According to Giznawz :
"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...

If you can't (both ends boxed), you have to resort cutting the joist
shorter (one wall width plus span length, plus a diagonal fudge factor),
which means that the ends of the joists aren't fully bedded into the wall.
Which isn't optimal. Sistering to an existing beam is fine, however - a
little less end support makes no difference if you're just trying to
stiffen
it up.

This is a good point. What is it that we are trying to beef up here, the
shear strength at the bearing ends of the joists, or the bending strength
(read deflection) at the mid span of the joists under new larger loads than
in the original design?

I'm pretty sure that the OP is doing this to eliminate sag problems,
_not_ to improve overall load bearing. This is a "cosmetic" thing, not
a structural thing.

If he's doing it for "shake" problems (stepping on the floor causes the
fridge to bang off the wall and the glassware to rattle), it's bridging
he needs, not more joists.

If we feel comfortable with the shear and bearing
strength of the original joists under the new conditions, and are only
concerned about bending strength, then there is really no need to bear the
sisters on the supports - assuming of course that the sister joists project
far enough into the low bending stress zones at the ends of the joists and
they can be fastened properly to the original joists to share the load in
bending.

Right,

... if he's sistering joists in for sag problems, the ends don't have to
bear on the supports at all...

Just needs proper "overlap nailing" patterns (see building code/engineering
tables on sistering/splicing/multiple board joists), and have the new joist
ends reasonably close to the old joist ends. Though, it'd be smart to
put bridging in to prevent any tendency for the final assembly to
"roll".

If it's purely for sag, I'd stick a post jack in the center of the existing
joist to get it into (or slightly above) line. Then sister in a second
joist, crown edge _up_, with the proper nailing pattern. The new joists would
end just at the wall face.

Put in a "box bridge" at either end.

Then lower the jack.

As always, it is best to have a professional look at the existing
conditions and evaluate the situation for safety... but this could be a
cost saving measure if found to be a safe alternative. One word of caution,
however... If you are not planning to have an engineer evaluate your
situation, disregard my comments and do what must be done to bear the
sisters on the supports.

OP? _Why_ are you installing these extra joists anyway?
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

(Chris Lewis) wrote in message ...
According to Giznawz :
"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...

If you can't (both ends boxed), you have to resort cutting the joist
shorter (one wall width plus span length, plus a diagonal fudge factor),
which means that the ends of the joists aren't fully bedded into the wall.
Which isn't optimal. Sistering to an existing beam is fine, however - a
little less end support makes no difference if you're just trying to
stiffen
it up.

This is a good point. What is it that we are trying to beef up here, the
shear strength at the bearing ends of the joists, or the bending strength
(read deflection) at the mid span of the joists under new larger loads than
in the original design?

I'm pretty sure that the OP is doing this to eliminate sag problems,
_not_ to improve overall load bearing. This is a "cosmetic" thing, not
a structural thing.

If he's doing it for "shake" problems (stepping on the floor causes the
fridge to bang off the wall and the glassware to rattle), it's bridging
he needs, not more joists.

If we feel comfortable with the shear and bearing
strength of the original joists under the new conditions, and are only
concerned about bending strength, then there is really no need to bear the
sisters on the supports - assuming of course that the sister joists project
far enough into the low bending stress zones at the ends of the joists and
they can be fastened properly to the original joists to share the load in
bending.

Right,

... if he's sistering joists in for sag problems, the ends don't have to
bear on the supports at all...

Just needs proper "overlap nailing" patterns (see building code/engineering
tables on sistering/splicing/multiple board joists), and have the new joist
ends reasonably close to the old joist ends. Though, it'd be smart to
put bridging in to prevent any tendency for the final assembly to
"roll".

If it's purely for sag, I'd stick a post jack in the center of the existing
joist to get it into (or slightly above) line. Then sister in a second
joist, crown edge _up_, with the proper nailing pattern. The new joists would
end just at the wall face.

Put in a "box bridge" at either end.

Then lower the jack.

As always, it is best to have a professional look at the existing
conditions and evaluate the situation for safety... but this could be a
cost saving measure if found to be a safe alternative. One word of caution,
however... If you are not planning to have an engineer evaluate your
situation, disregard my comments and do what must be done to bear the
sisters on the supports.

OP? _Why_ are you installing these extra joists anyway?

My immediate guess at the start was to beef up the floor under perhaps a waterbed.

Harry K

According to MS :

I'd like to put the additional joists in to fix two problems:

1) Some sagging - not severe
2) A load bearing wall in the original construction was placed
parallel to, but between the span of two joists. The wall is supported
by the subflooring now. This is where the double joist will go.

Ah. Do you really think you need a double joist for this - ie: was original
construction support for the wall removed? Or was it always like this?

Just so I am understanding this correctly: The "notch" should be the
removal of about 1/8" of the joist height, along about 3" of its
length, from both ends. If correct, then the only q. that remains is:
top of the joist, or bottom? Both ways seem possible, but shimming
would be required if the joist is notched on the bottom (the ends that
sit on the beam get the shims). I am not crazy about that idea and
plan on attempting guiding the joist in with the top ends (crown side)
notched for clearance.

The idea is that the notch permits you to slide the joists flat side up
into the supports, and then rotate it into a vertical position. The notches
provide clearance to get it into vertical, because the diagonal of a joist
is more than the nominal "wide-side" width (aka "cap-plate to subfloor"
distance).

If the notches are on the "to be top" edge of the joist, it won't work, because
the subfloor will interfere. Has to be on the bottom.

Don't worry about the shims. Pound 'em in hard and pin them with the
fastening nails. They'll be fine. Just try to keep them as full support
as possible.

Yes, the fact that the crown will be trying to push the joist away from the
flooring will make final placement hard. You'll need the screw jack to help
here. You may need considerable additional torque to get the joist narrow-side-up
without having to make the notches too deep.

Do note that chances are that the new lumber you buy isn't the same width
as the existing joists _anyway_, so, chances are you'd have to cut notches
and/or shim regardless. Ie: if the existing joists are full 12" high,
the practical solution is to use ordinary 12" lumber (11 1/2"), and shim the
joists from the bottom into line with the tops of the adjacent joists.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.