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Tom Newton
 
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Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

Hi Folks -

I live in NY where it's cold, and I have a question here that I'm literally
afraid to ask. I have a contractor doing a new kitchen for me and he's
almost done and has 80% of his money. The kitchen is 12'x17' and, unlike the
rest of the house, sits on a slab extension out back (there's a full
basement under the main footprint of the house, which is 90 years old, and
this kitchen extension is an appendage off the rear).

The extension was actually pre-existing from about ten years ago when the
previous owner put in a laundry room and a few walk in storage rooms there.
Anyway, my goal was to have the entire area over the slab gutted (12x17) and
make it our new kitchen, with ceramic tile floors, and have radiant heat.

Here's the deal... we're almost done, the contractor put in the radiant heat
tubing long ago, laid the tile done weeks ago (but never hooked up the
heating system to the boiler till now) and has continued to build the
kitchen and is almost done with everything.

But yesterday, they finally hooked up the radiant heat to the boiler, and
there is bad news. After running it for two hours at 180 degrees the damn
floor is still cold... and the return water is barely luke warm!

I'm starting to worry that this whole damn thing has to be jack hammered up
and redone -- an unimaginable thing given the amount of time we've been
without a kitchen (my wife will not survive this if it's true!).

My question is, based on the original requirements I gave, did my contractor
do everything right?

First, since the new kitchen is on the north end of the house, while radiant
heat sounded like a good idea, I warned him profusely that it gets cold
there... and wanted his assurance that the system he installs had plenty of
power to get this space warm and keep it comfortable at a reasonable cost.

These were the steps he took --

1. The whole heating project was done by him with direction given by his
"plumbing and heating guy"

2. First, he basically reframed the whole extension (12x17) because it was
poorly built by a do it yourselfer, insulated it with the best new stuff,
and put a new roof on top... this part seems good ... you can definitely
feel that the above ground part of this kitchen extension was done right;

3. Now for the slab and heat, where I'm really worried -- first, although he
was able to jack hammer away the very poor concrete laid by the previous
owner, there was some incredibly hard concrete below that that made it
impossible to go any more than 2 inches deep (the house probably had a patio
or landing out back originally, the house is 90 years old)

4. With the slab cleared down to the 2" depth, he said "to be safe" he'd put
in 50% more "tubing" than would normally be required for the space - this
was to address my heating worries - and he didn't lay the tubing under the
24" cabinet perimeter. Is it correct to use 50% more tubing than is normally
necessary?

5. Ok, this is what I'm horrified of - he didn't insulate the slab.
Originally, he said he WOULD be putting some insulation on the slab, and
then lay the tubing on top. But after it was all done, with the rest of the
floor poured over it and the tile man had laid his floor and had gone --
after that -- I asked him about the insulation below, and he broke me the
news -- "we couldn't put the insulation bed under the tubing because that
would have raised the floor height too high -- you would have hated it."

Shocked and a bit worried about the lack of insulation on the slab, I asked
him if that would affect the ability to heat up the room satisfactorily or
create a heating cost issue -- he said "no, it won't be an issue, don't
worry about it."

But again, since that conversation, it seems like he's been putting off
getting the heat hooked up to the boiler forever, and here I am today ---
with this dilemma.

Worried about the issue last night, I called him and he said he'd come over
and talk about next steps with me today. He's mentioned a few things, like
insulating the perimeter of the slab (outside the house), installing a stand
alone water heater in the basement just for the extension heat (my 80 year
old boiler, while it heats the main house fine, might no be well suited to
handle this radiant area he says)... so basically, he's talking about plan
B's with me now.

My question is this... is NOT insulating the slab below the heating tubes a
fatal flaw ? that dooms any solution short of jack hammering the whole place
and starting over?

Thanks for any assistance.

Tom


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Sligo
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

I hope the contractor has resources so you can sue if he does not correct at
his expense.
Seamus J. Wilson
"Tom Newton" wrote in message
...
Hi Folks -

I live in NY where it's cold, and I have a question here that I'm

literally
afraid to ask. I have a contractor doing a new kitchen for me and he's
almost done and has 80% of his money. The kitchen is 12'x17' and, unlike

the
rest of the house, sits on a slab extension out back (there's a full
basement under the main footprint of the house, which is 90 years old, and
this kitchen extension is an appendage off the rear).

The extension was actually pre-existing from about ten years ago when the
previous owner put in a laundry room and a few walk in storage rooms

there.
Anyway, my goal was to have the entire area over the slab gutted (12x17)

and
make it our new kitchen, with ceramic tile floors, and have radiant heat.

Here's the deal... we're almost done, the contractor put in the radiant

heat
tubing long ago, laid the tile done weeks ago (but never hooked up the
heating system to the boiler till now) and has continued to build the
kitchen and is almost done with everything.

But yesterday, they finally hooked up the radiant heat to the boiler, and
there is bad news. After running it for two hours at 180 degrees the damn
floor is still cold... and the return water is barely luke warm!

I'm starting to worry that this whole damn thing has to be jack hammered

up
and redone -- an unimaginable thing given the amount of time we've been
without a kitchen (my wife will not survive this if it's true!).

My question is, based on the original requirements I gave, did my

contractor
do everything right?

First, since the new kitchen is on the north end of the house, while

radiant
heat sounded like a good idea, I warned him profusely that it gets cold
there... and wanted his assurance that the system he installs had plenty

of
power to get this space warm and keep it comfortable at a reasonable cost.

These were the steps he took --

1. The whole heating project was done by him with direction given by his
"plumbing and heating guy"

2. First, he basically reframed the whole extension (12x17) because it was
poorly built by a do it yourselfer, insulated it with the best new stuff,
and put a new roof on top... this part seems good ... you can definitely
feel that the above ground part of this kitchen extension was done right;

3. Now for the slab and heat, where I'm really worried -- first, although

he
was able to jack hammer away the very poor concrete laid by the previous
owner, there was some incredibly hard concrete below that that made it
impossible to go any more than 2 inches deep (the house probably had a

patio
or landing out back originally, the house is 90 years old)

4. With the slab cleared down to the 2" depth, he said "to be safe" he'd

put
in 50% more "tubing" than would normally be required for the space - this
was to address my heating worries - and he didn't lay the tubing under the
24" cabinet perimeter. Is it correct to use 50% more tubing than is

normally
necessary?

5. Ok, this is what I'm horrified of - he didn't insulate the slab.
Originally, he said he WOULD be putting some insulation on the slab, and
then lay the tubing on top. But after it was all done, with the rest of

the
floor poured over it and the tile man had laid his floor and had gone --
after that -- I asked him about the insulation below, and he broke me the
news -- "we couldn't put the insulation bed under the tubing because that
would have raised the floor height too high -- you would have hated it."

Shocked and a bit worried about the lack of insulation on the slab, I

asked
him if that would affect the ability to heat up the room satisfactorily or
create a heating cost issue -- he said "no, it won't be an issue, don't
worry about it."

But again, since that conversation, it seems like he's been putting off
getting the heat hooked up to the boiler forever, and here I am today ---
with this dilemma.

Worried about the issue last night, I called him and he said he'd come

over
and talk about next steps with me today. He's mentioned a few things, like
insulating the perimeter of the slab (outside the house), installing a

stand
alone water heater in the basement just for the extension heat (my 80 year
old boiler, while it heats the main house fine, might no be well suited to
handle this radiant area he says)... so basically, he's talking about plan
B's with me now.

My question is this... is NOT insulating the slab below the heating tubes

a
fatal flaw ? that dooms any solution short of jack hammering the whole

place
and starting over?

Thanks for any assistance.

Tom




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Tom Newton
 
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Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

Is not-insulating the slab a fatal flaw? Is it the reason for the poor
heat-up? Will it cost a lot more to heat without it? He seemed to think it's
a nice to have but not a have to have.

I need to know if failing to insulate a slab above which will be a floor
with radiant heat is a negligent act.

Tom


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pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
 
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Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 09:29:30 -0500, "Tom Newton"
wrote:

But yesterday, they finally hooked up the radiant heat to the boiler, and
there is bad news. After running it for two hours at 180 degrees the damn
floor is still cold... and the return water is barely luke warm!


Keep this in mind for later on down ....

My question is, based on the original requirements I gave, did my contractor
do everything right?


If those requirements included him doing a Manual J load calc,
and designing the system as per industry standards to that calc, and
putting it in writing, then yes.

4. With the slab cleared down to the 2" depth, he said "to be safe" he'd put
in 50% more "tubing" than would normally be required for the space - this
was to address my heating worries - and he didn't lay the tubing under the
24" cabinet perimeter. Is it correct to use 50% more tubing than is normally
necessary?


Nope. It's correct to put in the correct calculated amount.

5. Ok, this is what I'm horrified of - he didn't insulate the slab.


You got issues, homes.

Originally, he said he WOULD be putting some insulation on the slab, and
then lay the tubing on top. But after it was all done, with the rest of the
floor poured over it and the tile man had laid his floor and had gone --
after that -- I asked him about the insulation below, and he broke me the
news -- "we couldn't put the insulation bed under the tubing because that
would have raised the floor height too high -- you would have hated it."


It's his job to A) do it right, B) discuss signifigant
changes to the specs with you *before* not *after* and C) make sure
that any plan he comes up with meets code, meets requirements, and
works.


Shocked and a bit worried about the lack of insulation on the slab, I asked
him if that would affect the ability to heat up the room satisfactorily or
create a heating cost issue -- he said "no, it won't be an issue, don't
worry about it."


You got this in writing, right ?

Worried about the issue last night, I called him and he said he'd come over
and talk about next steps with me today. He's mentioned a few things, like
insulating the perimeter of the slab (outside the house), installing a stand
alone water heater in the basement just for the extension heat (my 80 year
old boiler, while it heats the main house fine, might no be well suited to
handle this radiant area he says)... so basically, he's talking about plan
B's with me now.


No, he already installed Plan B, now he's talking with you
about how to get you to shut up about it.

Let's look back at that 180 degree thing at the top now - if
you're supplying 180 degree water now, what does he propose a new
water heater is going to do for you ? Does he suggest that the 180 is
too low ( bull**** ) ? If not, if you have plenty of hot water going
in now, and the problem is too much heat loss ( it comes back cool ),
a new water heater will do exactly nothing for you.

My question is this... is NOT insulating the slab below the heating tubes a
fatal flaw ? that dooms any solution short of jack hammering the whole place
and starting over?


Can't see it from here, but it sure sounds like you're ****ed.

I hope you have a good contract that requires him to meet
performance specs. If he left out slab insulation that was in the
contract and you didn't sign off on it, you have his ass
dead-to-rights in court for non-performance. Whatever you do, do not
sign anything further at this point, like change orders, new work
orders, etc - it might be construed as a 'constructive waiver' - check
with your legal beagle as to what that means. It lets the contractor
off the hook.


Thanks for any assistance.

Tom



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online !! http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/
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SQLit
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!


"Tom Newton" wrote in message
...
Hi Folks -

I live in NY where it's cold, and I have a question here that I'm

literally
afraid to ask. I have a contractor doing a new kitchen for me and he's
almost done and has 80% of his money. The kitchen is 12'x17' and, unlike

the
rest of the house, sits on a slab extension out back (there's a full
basement under the main footprint of the house, which is 90 years old, and
this kitchen extension is an appendage off the rear).

The extension was actually pre-existing from about ten years ago when the
previous owner put in a laundry room and a few walk in storage rooms

there.
Anyway, my goal was to have the entire area over the slab gutted (12x17)

and
make it our new kitchen, with ceramic tile floors, and have radiant heat.

Here's the deal... we're almost done, the contractor put in the radiant

heat
tubing long ago, laid the tile done weeks ago (but never hooked up the
heating system to the boiler till now) and has continued to build the
kitchen and is almost done with everything.

But yesterday, they finally hooked up the radiant heat to the boiler, and
there is bad news. After running it for two hours at 180 degrees the damn
floor is still cold... and the return water is barely luke warm!

snipped

If the water going out is 180 and is barely warm coming back then I would
say that it is working. This is not forced air. No instant gratification
here. Keep the pump running to the floor for 24 hours, it will take some
time for the slab, tile and everything to warm up. You said it was cold
outside....

As for the insulation, I do not know if it makes a difference. Besides it is
not like your going to jack hammer the slab up any way.




  #6   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

Tom Newton wrote:

I live in NY where it's cold...


How cold is it?

The kitchen is 12'x17' and, unlike the rest of the house, sits on a slab
extension out back...


...yesterday, they finally hooked up the radiant heat to the boiler


How many Btu/hour?

After running it for two hours at 180 degrees the damn floor is still cold...
and the return water is barely luke warm!


How many gpm? What's the floor temp and the return water temp?

...although he was able to jack hammer away the very poor concrete laid by
the previous owner, there was some incredibly hard concrete below that that
made it impossible to go any more than 2 inches deep (the house probably had
a patio or landing out back originally, the house is 90 years old)


....2" of new concrete over 6" of old concrete over soil or stone might be
8"/12"x12'x17' = 136 ft^3 with 25x136 = 3400 Btu/F of thermal capacitance.
With minimal heat loss to the ground underneath, a 50K Btu/h boiler might
warm it 100K/3400 = 29 F in two hours.

At this point, 4' of R10 perimeter insulation seems like a good idea,
along with baseboard radiators...

Nick

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PJx
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 08:11:28 -0700, "SQLit"
wrote:


"Tom Newton" wrote in message
...
Hi Folks -

I live in NY where it's cold, and I have a question here that I'm

literally
afraid to ask. I have a contractor doing a new kitchen for me and he's
almost done and has 80% of his money. The kitchen is 12'x17' and, unlike

the
rest of the house, sits on a slab extension out back (there's a full
basement under the main footprint of the house, which is 90 years old, and
this kitchen extension is an appendage off the rear).

The extension was actually pre-existing from about ten years ago when the
previous owner put in a laundry room and a few walk in storage rooms

there.
Anyway, my goal was to have the entire area over the slab gutted (12x17)

and
make it our new kitchen, with ceramic tile floors, and have radiant heat.

Here's the deal... we're almost done, the contractor put in the radiant

heat
tubing long ago, laid the tile done weeks ago (but never hooked up the
heating system to the boiler till now) and has continued to build the
kitchen and is almost done with everything.

But yesterday, they finally hooked up the radiant heat to the boiler, and
there is bad news. After running it for two hours at 180 degrees the damn
floor is still cold... and the return water is barely luke warm!

snipped

If the water going out is 180 and is barely warm coming back then I would
say that it is working. This is not forced air. No instant gratification
here. Keep the pump running to the floor for 24 hours, it will take some
time for the slab, tile and everything to warm up. You said it was cold
outside....



He says 24 hours. I say 48 hours minimum and preferably 72 hours
before you even put a thermometer to it. And that might not be long
enough.

In two hours, the system has not even started to stabilize. Give it
72 hours running full steam and report back to us.

PJ

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Tom Newton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

Thanks so much guys for sharing your knowledge. I had a long talk with the
contractor today... here's an update. By the way, my location is Long Island
NY... average evening temp in Feb about 25 or so, the ground below is dry
and densly packed earth with some clay

We just had a frank talk...

1. He explained why the insulation didn't go down (the subconcrete below the
first two inches was too hard and too dense to get any lower... his guys
were jackhammering it for several days... it would have taken TNT to blast
it down any further -- based on what I saw at the time, I take him at his
word.) So, one inch of insulation on top of the slab as it was would have
translated to 2" or more height to the final product... which would
admittedly have been undesireable -- but again -- perhaps baseboard heat
would have been a better reccomendation at that point... even though I did
express distaste for baseboard from the start...;

2. I explained that -- while I did want the end result tile floor to be as
flush as possible as the oak in the main part of the house (he's done a goo
sjob achieving that.. it's only 1/2" higher) -- I didn't feel that he had
educated me to what the ramifications would be by not insulating the slab
(ie heatup time, and heating costs)... but again, he says... Tom, we hooked
this up 24 hours ago, don't freak out yet, it takes a long time to get this
baby up to temp... lets not freak out yet...;

3. We called the heating guy... who helped my contractor (Bill) with the
heat calculations, the pressure tests, the hookups to the boiler, and when I
asked him if putting radiant heat on an uninsulated slab is OK, he says
"optimally no... but does it happen often? yes -- does not having it
insulated mean you're doomed? No.;

4. He had put 6MM plastic below the pex tubing , which sits on a rack of
sorts and then the whole thing gets flooded with the cement etc... 6MM of
plastic seems minor, but the heat guy says that it helps;

5. He has agreed to insulate the exterior perimeter of the foundation (6"
above ground, and 18' below) around the slab "at cost" ... but I'm working
with him on a number as close to free as possible;

6. I explained that the I hear the water temp should be closer to 130 than
180, and he agrees. There was a mixing valve installed to step the water
temp down... but he's had it off so we can heat up the slab.

Anyway, we're continuing to attack the problem --- I haven't told you al
labout my 90 year old boiler! Well, it appears that we're at a crossroads
with this old war horse too. Hopefully we're able to get an acceptable
heating arrangement going shortly.. wish me luck.

Tom

PS. If 130 degree water is going in, and there's 230 ft of pex in the 12x17
area, what's a good target temp for the return water to be? 30 degrees less?
20 degrees less?


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PJx
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!


And another thing.

Don't even think about a setback thermostat
..
Leave it on and leave it at set temperature. Even if you leave for
the weekend. Expect it to take 72 hours to stabilize after your 10
day ski trip when you do set it back 10 degrees.

PJ



On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 09:29:30 -0500, "Tom Newton"
wrote:

Hi Folks -

I live in NY where it's cold, and I have a question here that I'm literally
afraid to ask. I have a contractor doing a new kitchen for me and he's
almost done and has 80% of his money. The kitchen is 12'x17' and, unlike the
rest of the house, sits on a slab extension out back (there's a full
basement under the main footprint of the house, which is 90 years old, and
this kitchen extension is an appendage off the rear).

The extension was actually pre-existing from about ten years ago when the
previous owner put in a laundry room and a few walk in storage rooms there.
Anyway, my goal was to have the entire area over the slab gutted (12x17) and
make it our new kitchen, with ceramic tile floors, and have radiant heat.

Here's the deal... we're almost done, the contractor put in the radiant heat
tubing long ago, laid the tile done weeks ago (but never hooked up the
heating system to the boiler till now) and has continued to build the
kitchen and is almost done with everything.

But yesterday, they finally hooked up the radiant heat to the boiler, and
there is bad news. After running it for two hours at 180 degrees the damn
floor is still cold... and the return water is barely luke warm!

I'm starting to worry that this whole damn thing has to be jack hammered up
and redone -- an unimaginable thing given the amount of time we've been
without a kitchen (my wife will not survive this if it's true!).

My question is, based on the original requirements I gave, did my contractor
do everything right?

First, since the new kitchen is on the north end of the house, while radiant
heat sounded like a good idea, I warned him profusely that it gets cold
there... and wanted his assurance that the system he installs had plenty of
power to get this space warm and keep it comfortable at a reasonable cost.

These were the steps he took --

1. The whole heating project was done by him with direction given by his
"plumbing and heating guy"

2. First, he basically reframed the whole extension (12x17) because it was
poorly built by a do it yourselfer, insulated it with the best new stuff,
and put a new roof on top... this part seems good ... you can definitely
feel that the above ground part of this kitchen extension was done right;

3. Now for the slab and heat, where I'm really worried -- first, although he
was able to jack hammer away the very poor concrete laid by the previous
owner, there was some incredibly hard concrete below that that made it
impossible to go any more than 2 inches deep (the house probably had a patio
or landing out back originally, the house is 90 years old)

4. With the slab cleared down to the 2" depth, he said "to be safe" he'd put
in 50% more "tubing" than would normally be required for the space - this
was to address my heating worries - and he didn't lay the tubing under the
24" cabinet perimeter. Is it correct to use 50% more tubing than is normally
necessary?

5. Ok, this is what I'm horrified of - he didn't insulate the slab.
Originally, he said he WOULD be putting some insulation on the slab, and
then lay the tubing on top. But after it was all done, with the rest of the
floor poured over it and the tile man had laid his floor and had gone --
after that -- I asked him about the insulation below, and he broke me the
news -- "we couldn't put the insulation bed under the tubing because that
would have raised the floor height too high -- you would have hated it."

Shocked and a bit worried about the lack of insulation on the slab, I asked
him if that would affect the ability to heat up the room satisfactorily or
create a heating cost issue -- he said "no, it won't be an issue, don't
worry about it."

But again, since that conversation, it seems like he's been putting off
getting the heat hooked up to the boiler forever, and here I am today ---
with this dilemma.

Worried about the issue last night, I called him and he said he'd come over
and talk about next steps with me today. He's mentioned a few things, like
insulating the perimeter of the slab (outside the house), installing a stand
alone water heater in the basement just for the extension heat (my 80 year
old boiler, while it heats the main house fine, might no be well suited to
handle this radiant area he says)... so basically, he's talking about plan
B's with me now.

My question is this... is NOT insulating the slab below the heating tubes a
fatal flaw ? that dooms any solution short of jack hammering the whole place
and starting over?

Thanks for any assistance.

Tom


  #10   Report Post  
Java Man (Espressopithecus)
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

In article , thnewton@nospam-
hotmail.com says...
~ Thanks so much guys for sharing your knowledge. I had a long talk with the
~ contractor today... here's an update. By the way, my location is Long Island
~ NY... average evening temp in Feb about 25 or so, the ground below is dry
~ and densly packed earth with some clay
~
~ We just had a frank talk...
~
Details snipped.

I think your contractor should have consulted you before going ahead
without insulating the slab.

The extra insulation at the edge of the slab will make a significant
difference in the temperature of the ground under the slab because
the "temperature gradient" will be much flatter. That doesn't excuse
the builder, but his offer to install the perimeter insulation at his
expense seems fair.

See: http://tinyurl.com/2au9y

It will explain why insulating the perimeter helps, and will show you
the detail of how it should be done. Ask for the builder's assurance
that he will follow this or something a lot like it.

Rick



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pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 20:07:47 GMT, Java Man (Espressopithecus)
wrote:

In article , thnewton@nospam-
hotmail.com says...
~ Thanks so much guys for sharing your knowledge. I had a long talk with the
~ contractor today... here's an update. By the way, my location is Long Island
~ NY... average evening temp in Feb about 25 or so, the ground below is dry
~ and densly packed earth with some clay
~
~ We just had a frank talk...
~
Details snipped.

I think your contractor should have consulted you before going ahead
without insulating the slab.

The extra insulation at the edge of the slab will make a significant
difference in the temperature of the ground under the slab because
the "temperature gradient" will be much flatter. That doesn't excuse
the builder, but his offer to install the perimeter insulation at his
expense seems fair.


What would seem 'fair' would be for him to live up to the
orginal contract.

And he offered to do it at his 'cost', not at his 'expense' -
in other words, it's not free to the home owner ( it looks like it
should be ).



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online !! http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/
  #13   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

And another thing.

Don't even think about a setback thermostat
.
Leave it on and leave it at set temperature. Even if you leave for
the weekend. Expect it to take 72 hours to stabilize after your 10
day ski trip when you do set it back 10 degrees.


Given the slow response time of radiant heat.... as per
your statement above..... is this one reason why YOu
might avoid using that "type" of heat?

Are ALL radiant heat systems just slow to respond....
and the nature of the beast?
  #15   Report Post  
Tom Newton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

PJ -

What's a setback thermostat?

Thanks!

Tom


"PJx" wrote in message
...

And another thing.

Don't even think about a setback thermostat
.
Leave it on and leave it at set temperature. Even if you leave for
the weekend. Expect it to take 72 hours to stabilize after your 10
day ski trip when you do set it back 10 degrees.

PJ



On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 09:29:30 -0500, "Tom Newton"
wrote:

Hi Folks -

I live in NY where it's cold, and I have a question here that I'm

literally
afraid to ask. I have a contractor doing a new kitchen for me and he's
almost done and has 80% of his money. The kitchen is 12'x17' and, unlike

the
rest of the house, sits on a slab extension out back (there's a full
basement under the main footprint of the house, which is 90 years old,

and
this kitchen extension is an appendage off the rear).

The extension was actually pre-existing from about ten years ago when the
previous owner put in a laundry room and a few walk in storage rooms

there.
Anyway, my goal was to have the entire area over the slab gutted (12x17)

and
make it our new kitchen, with ceramic tile floors, and have radiant heat.

Here's the deal... we're almost done, the contractor put in the radiant

heat
tubing long ago, laid the tile done weeks ago (but never hooked up the
heating system to the boiler till now) and has continued to build the
kitchen and is almost done with everything.

But yesterday, they finally hooked up the radiant heat to the boiler, and
there is bad news. After running it for two hours at 180 degrees the damn
floor is still cold... and the return water is barely luke warm!

I'm starting to worry that this whole damn thing has to be jack hammered

up
and redone -- an unimaginable thing given the amount of time we've been
without a kitchen (my wife will not survive this if it's true!).

My question is, based on the original requirements I gave, did my

contractor
do everything right?

First, since the new kitchen is on the north end of the house, while

radiant
heat sounded like a good idea, I warned him profusely that it gets cold
there... and wanted his assurance that the system he installs had plenty

of
power to get this space warm and keep it comfortable at a reasonable

cost.

These were the steps he took --

1. The whole heating project was done by him with direction given by his
"plumbing and heating guy"

2. First, he basically reframed the whole extension (12x17) because it

was
poorly built by a do it yourselfer, insulated it with the best new stuff,
and put a new roof on top... this part seems good ... you can definitely
feel that the above ground part of this kitchen extension was done right;

3. Now for the slab and heat, where I'm really worried -- first, although

he
was able to jack hammer away the very poor concrete laid by the previous
owner, there was some incredibly hard concrete below that that made it
impossible to go any more than 2 inches deep (the house probably had a

patio
or landing out back originally, the house is 90 years old)

4. With the slab cleared down to the 2" depth, he said "to be safe" he'd

put
in 50% more "tubing" than would normally be required for the space - this
was to address my heating worries - and he didn't lay the tubing under

the
24" cabinet perimeter. Is it correct to use 50% more tubing than is

normally
necessary?

5. Ok, this is what I'm horrified of - he didn't insulate the slab.
Originally, he said he WOULD be putting some insulation on the slab, and
then lay the tubing on top. But after it was all done, with the rest of

the
floor poured over it and the tile man had laid his floor and had gone --
after that -- I asked him about the insulation below, and he broke me the


news -- "we couldn't put the insulation bed under the tubing because that
would have raised the floor height too high -- you would have hated it."

Shocked and a bit worried about the lack of insulation on the slab, I

asked
him if that would affect the ability to heat up the room satisfactorily

or
create a heating cost issue -- he said "no, it won't be an issue, don't
worry about it."

But again, since that conversation, it seems like he's been putting off
getting the heat hooked up to the boiler forever, and here I am today ---
with this dilemma.

Worried about the issue last night, I called him and he said he'd come

over
and talk about next steps with me today. He's mentioned a few things,

like
insulating the perimeter of the slab (outside the house), installing a

stand
alone water heater in the basement just for the extension heat (my 80

year
old boiler, while it heats the main house fine, might no be well suited

to
handle this radiant area he says)... so basically, he's talking about

plan
B's with me now.

My question is this... is NOT insulating the slab below the heating tubes

a
fatal flaw ? that dooms any solution short of jack hammering the whole

place
and starting over?

Thanks for any assistance.

Tom






  #16   Report Post  
Tom Newton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

Thanks Java Man

That URL you give doesn't work... please give me the link - thanks!

Tom



"Java Man (Espressopithecus)" wrote in message
ble.net...
In article , thnewton@nospam-
hotmail.com says...
~ Thanks so much guys for sharing your knowledge. I had a long talk with

the
~ contractor today... here's an update. By the way, my location is Long

Island
~ NY... average evening temp in Feb about 25 or so, the ground below is

dry
~ and densly packed earth with some clay
~
~ We just had a frank talk...
~
Details snipped.

I think your contractor should have consulted you before going ahead
without insulating the slab.

The extra insulation at the edge of the slab will make a significant
difference in the temperature of the ground under the slab because
the "temperature gradient" will be much flatter. That doesn't excuse
the builder, but his offer to install the perimeter insulation at his
expense seems fair.

See: http://tinyurl.com/2au9y

It will explain why insulating the perimeter helps, and will show you
the detail of how it should be done. Ask for the builder's assurance
that he will follow this or something a lot like it.

Rick



  #17   Report Post  
Java Man (Espressopithecus)
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

In article , thnewton@nospam-
hotmail.com says...
~ Thanks Java Man
~
~ That URL you give doesn't work... please give me the link - thanks!
~

http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/publicati...2000-127E.html

Rick
  #19   Report Post  
PJx
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

Here is a nice description:
http://www.eichlernetwork.com/messages/6869.html


On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:10:50 -0500, "Tom Newton"
wrote:

PJ -

What's a setback thermostat?

Thanks!

Tom


"PJx" wrote in message
.. .

And another thing.

Don't even think about a setback thermostat
.
Leave it on and leave it at set temperature. Even if you leave for
the weekend. Expect it to take 72 hours to stabilize after your 10
day ski trip when you do set it back 10 degrees.

PJ



On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 09:29:30 -0500, "Tom Newton"
wrote:

Hi Folks -

I live in NY where it's cold, and I have a question here that I'm

literally
afraid to ask. I have a contractor doing a new kitchen for me and he's
almost done and has 80% of his money. The kitchen is 12'x17' and, unlike

the
rest of the house, sits on a slab extension out back (there's a full
basement under the main footprint of the house, which is 90 years old,

and
this kitchen extension is an appendage off the rear).

The extension was actually pre-existing from about ten years ago when the
previous owner put in a laundry room and a few walk in storage rooms

there.
Anyway, my goal was to have the entire area over the slab gutted (12x17)

and
make it our new kitchen, with ceramic tile floors, and have radiant heat.

Here's the deal... we're almost done, the contractor put in the radiant

heat
tubing long ago, laid the tile done weeks ago (but never hooked up the
heating system to the boiler till now) and has continued to build the
kitchen and is almost done with everything.

But yesterday, they finally hooked up the radiant heat to the boiler, and
there is bad news. After running it for two hours at 180 degrees the damn
floor is still cold... and the return water is barely luke warm!

I'm starting to worry that this whole damn thing has to be jack hammered

up
and redone -- an unimaginable thing given the amount of time we've been
without a kitchen (my wife will not survive this if it's true!).

My question is, based on the original requirements I gave, did my

contractor
do everything right?

First, since the new kitchen is on the north end of the house, while

radiant
heat sounded like a good idea, I warned him profusely that it gets cold
there... and wanted his assurance that the system he installs had plenty

of
power to get this space warm and keep it comfortable at a reasonable

cost.

These were the steps he took --

1. The whole heating project was done by him with direction given by his
"plumbing and heating guy"

2. First, he basically reframed the whole extension (12x17) because it

was
poorly built by a do it yourselfer, insulated it with the best new stuff,
and put a new roof on top... this part seems good ... you can definitely
feel that the above ground part of this kitchen extension was done right;

3. Now for the slab and heat, where I'm really worried -- first, although

he
was able to jack hammer away the very poor concrete laid by the previous
owner, there was some incredibly hard concrete below that that made it
impossible to go any more than 2 inches deep (the house probably had a

patio
or landing out back originally, the house is 90 years old)

4. With the slab cleared down to the 2" depth, he said "to be safe" he'd

put
in 50% more "tubing" than would normally be required for the space - this
was to address my heating worries - and he didn't lay the tubing under

the
24" cabinet perimeter. Is it correct to use 50% more tubing than is

normally
necessary?

5. Ok, this is what I'm horrified of - he didn't insulate the slab.
Originally, he said he WOULD be putting some insulation on the slab, and
then lay the tubing on top. But after it was all done, with the rest of

the
floor poured over it and the tile man had laid his floor and had gone --
after that -- I asked him about the insulation below, and he broke me the


news -- "we couldn't put the insulation bed under the tubing because that
would have raised the floor height too high -- you would have hated it."

Shocked and a bit worried about the lack of insulation on the slab, I

asked
him if that would affect the ability to heat up the room satisfactorily

or
create a heating cost issue -- he said "no, it won't be an issue, don't
worry about it."

But again, since that conversation, it seems like he's been putting off
getting the heat hooked up to the boiler forever, and here I am today ---
with this dilemma.

Worried about the issue last night, I called him and he said he'd come

over
and talk about next steps with me today. He's mentioned a few things,

like
insulating the perimeter of the slab (outside the house), installing a

stand
alone water heater in the basement just for the extension heat (my 80

year
old boiler, while it heats the main house fine, might no be well suited

to
handle this radiant area he says)... so basically, he's talking about

plan
B's with me now.

My question is this... is NOT insulating the slab below the heating tubes

a
fatal flaw ? that dooms any solution short of jack hammering the whole

place
and starting over?

Thanks for any assistance.

Tom




  #20   Report Post  
Jon Elson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!



Tom Newton wrote:
PJ -

What's a setback thermostat?


So, it's been 2 days. Any change? It may take a week (or even more)
to warm up that slab and the several feet of earth underneath it.
The exterior insulation sounds like a really good idea. If the
return water was warm and you still had cold rooms, then you would
have a disaster, ie. not enough heat exchanger surface area.
I suspect you will be seeing some improvement already.

Jon



  #21   Report Post  
Tom Newton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

Jon -

Thanks for your concern. Yes, thankfully, it's warmed up nicely ---
especially since the air was removed from the system...

At any rate, we're doing two things 1) insulting the outer perimeter or the
slab, and 2) getting a new boiler (the old clunker is struggling at 86 years
old)...

Still a long way to go... but we're heading in the right direction

Tom



"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...


Tom Newton wrote:
PJ -

What's a setback thermostat?


So, it's been 2 days. Any change? It may take a week (or even more)
to warm up that slab and the several feet of earth underneath it.
The exterior insulation sounds like a really good idea. If the
return water was warm and you still had cold rooms, then you would
have a disaster, ie. not enough heat exchanger surface area.
I suspect you will be seeing some improvement already.

Jon



  #22   Report Post  
pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 18:21:38 -0500, "Tom Newton"
wrote:

Jon -

Thanks for your concern. Yes, thankfully, it's warmed up nicely ---
especially since the air was removed from the system...

At any rate, we're doing two things 1) insulting the outer perimeter or the
slab, and 2) getting a new boiler (the old clunker is struggling at 86 years
old)...


So does my Granny, but she hates being called 'old clunker'.
Then again, there's not much she can do about it from her chair.....
her pitching arm just ain't what it used to be.

Your boiler is 86 years old ????? What is it, a coal
conversion ?



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online !! http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/
  #23   Report Post  
Doug Pearce
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

"Tom Newton" wrote in message ...
Hi Folks -


3. Now for the slab and heat, where I'm really worried -- first, although he
was able to jack hammer away the very poor concrete laid by the previous
owner, there was some incredibly hard concrete below that that made it
impossible to go any more than 2 inches deep (the house probably had a patio
or landing out back originally, the house is 90 years old)

4. With the slab cleared down to the 2" depth, he said "to be safe" he'd put
in 50% more "tubing" than would normally be required for the space - this
was to address my heating worries - and he didn't lay the tubing under the
24" cabinet perimeter. Is it correct to use 50% more tubing than is normally
necessary?

5. Ok, this is what I'm horrified of - he didn't insulate the slab.
Originally, he said he WOULD be putting some insulation on the slab, and
then lay the tubing on top. But after it was all done, with the rest of the
floor poured over it and the tile man had laid his floor and had gone --
after that -- I asked him about the insulation below, and he broke me the
news -- "we couldn't put the insulation bed under the tubing because that
would have raised the floor height too high -- you would have hated it."

Shocked and a bit worried about the lack of insulation on the slab, I asked
him if that would affect the ability to heat up the room satisfactorily or
create a heating cost issue -- he said "no, it won't be an issue, don't
worry about it."

Tom,

Unfortunately this response is not going to be much help for you
however for the group, we have solved this problem a few times by
insulating the slab under the in-floor radiant heat with one of our
multi ceramic insulations. Here is a link to some pictures of one of
the projects.

http://eaglecoatings.net/content/sun...adiantheat.htm

Granted this is not the optimum application for this technology. See
the Note at the bottom of the page!

ie. NOTE : In this particular application the SUNSHIELD 2000 is
completely buried in concrete and consequently only 2 of the 4
ceramics will come into play. The 2 reflective ceramics are
ineffective in this type of application because the coating is facing
direct contact, low temperature, front side conduction. This will
reduce the R value equivalency to approximately R10. Additional R
value equivalency can be achieved by adding more thickness.

An addition 7 mils DFT will only equal an additional RE3.

Prior to the application on the first project I worked with the
Engineering Firm involved and we completed a successful test of this
method of insulation using thermocouples buried in the test slab as
well as taking top and underslab temperature readings.

Hopefully this information will be helpful to others that are faced
with the lack of space constraint.

Best Regards,
Doug
  #24   Report Post  
m Ransley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

I tried ceramic paint additive and found no r value using an IR
thermometer on painted heating ducts. I like to see an INDEPANDANT
test of R value. on your product
I used 1 " R 7.2 foamboard under my concrete basement floor , that is
proven to work. But a perhaps better way would be using a natural
product such as pearlite , but something harder

  #25   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

Doug Pearce wrote:

http://eaglecoatings.net/content/sun...adiantheat.htm

Granted this is not the optimum application for this technology.


Indeed. Is it April 1 already? :-)

...In this particular application the SUNSHIELD 2000 is completely buried
in concrete and consequently only 2 of the 4 ceramics will come into play.
The 2 reflective ceramics are ineffective in this type of application
because the coating is facing direct contact, low temperature, front side
conduction. This will reduce the R value equivalency to approximately R10.
Additional R value equivalency can be achieved by adding more thickness.


As I recall, soil has a thermal resistance of about R10, so
it looks like your 14 mils of miracle stuff adds about R0.0,
as anyone knowing some physics might expect from its thickness.
You seem extremely confused, if not a serious crook, exceeding
HVAC criminal standards by a very large margin.

Best regards,

Nick



  #26   Report Post  
Tom Newton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Radiant Heat in Slab -- HELP!

Thanks Nick.

ps. We put insulation around the outer foundation perimeter and down 18"
below grade. That plus getting some of that stubborn air out of the pex
tubing... and wala... the floor is cookin' !!

Tom Newton


wrote in message
...
Doug Pearce wrote:


http://eaglecoatings.net/content/sun...adiantheat.htm

Granted this is not the optimum application for this technology.


Indeed. Is it April 1 already? :-)

...In this particular application the SUNSHIELD 2000 is completely buried
in concrete and consequently only 2 of the 4 ceramics will come into

play.
The 2 reflective ceramics are ineffective in this type of application
because the coating is facing direct contact, low temperature, front side
conduction. This will reduce the R value equivalency to approximately

R10.
Additional R value equivalency can be achieved by adding more thickness.


As I recall, soil has a thermal resistance of about R10, so
it looks like your 14 mils of miracle stuff adds about R0.0,
as anyone knowing some physics might expect from its thickness.
You seem extremely confused, if not a serious crook, exceeding
HVAC criminal standards by a very large margin.

Best regards,

Nick



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