Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

Hi,

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

You comments greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Basha

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

"Basha" wrote in message
m...
Hi,

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

You comments greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Basha

I'd check with the city. If the owner didn't get a permit - the finished
basement may not be up to city codes, i.e. city may require egress windows
for finished basements, etc.

Better to be safe than sorry...

My 2c,

Matty

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

In article ,
said...
Hi,

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

You comments greatly appreciated.

The main risk is that if they built right up to the foundation you will
not be able to inspect it's soundness. That really has nothing to do with
having or not having a permit, but that would be my concern. Any decent
home inspector can tell you whether the job itself is sound or not.

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

Aside from the points made by others, no bank/mortgage company will touch a
property which does not have a Certificate of Occupancy on an extension, or
in this case, a finished area. Ask the current owner if he/she is willing
to do the legwork to get the C of O and pay the fines. It can get very
expensive and time consuming. If he/she won't, walk away.
--
C.J.

Pull my pud to reply


"Basha" wrote in message
m...
Hi,

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

You comments greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Basha

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

In article , said...
Aside from the points made by others, no bank/mortgage company will touch a
property which does not have a Certificate of Occupancy on an extension, or
in this case, a finished area. Ask the current owner if he/she is willing
to do the legwork to get the C of O and pay the fines. It can get very
expensive and time consuming. If he/she won't, walk away.

That's not true at all. I sold a house last year with a basement that I
did off the books. I also know many people that have done the same thing
and had no problem. It is quite a common occurrence, legal or not.

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

Have the house inspected for local and state codes. I'm sure there
are many homes that finish the basement without permits. You want to
be sure the house is safe to live in.

On 12 Nov 2003 11:14:15 -0800, (Basha) wrote:

Hi,

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

You comments greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Basha

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

Some areas may not require a permit to finish off an unfinished basement.
Check with the town offices before panicking.



--


Remove "zz" from e-mail address to direct reply.

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

In article ,
emove said...
wrote:

In article , said...
Aside from the points made by others, no bank/mortgage company will touch a
property which does not have a Certificate of Occupancy on an extension, or
in this case, a finished area. Ask the current owner if he/she is willing
to do the legwork to get the C of O and pay the fines. It can get very
expensive and time consuming. If he/she won't, walk away.

That's not true at all. I sold a house last year with a basement that I
did off the books. I also know many people that have done the same thing
and had no problem. It is quite a common occurrence, legal or not.

It depends on the town. Our town requires that an inspection be done by their
building inspector and a CCO, Certificate of Continued Occupany, be issued
before a house is sold. They are looking for any open permits or work done
without a permit. They recomend you make an application for the CCO a month
before closing so you have time to rectify any problems before closing.

Our town requires the same thing, but they said nothing. I would bet good
money that more than half of DIY basements are done off of the books.

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

The main risk is that if they built right up to the foundation you will
not be able to inspect it's soundness

That does THAT mean?
Pat

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

Many houses have additions that were added without permits in order to avoid an
increase in property tax. Not only do owners do it but construction companies
do, too, to accommodate their customers. Legally, it makes no difference
whatsoever to the owner of the property. Speaking from experience, the tax
department doesn't care, either.

Pat

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

"Brad" wrote in message
Our town requires the same thing, but they said nothing. I would bet good
money that more than half of DIY basements are done off of the books.

I'd say about 99% are done that way. My old house was done that way and
nothing was ever questioned.

My only concern would be using the rooms as bedrooms. Code requires a
method of egress in case of fire. It the windows are of sufficient size, no
problem.
Ed

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

no bank/mortgage company will touch a
property which does not have a Certificate of Occupancy

When the house was originally built, it got a certificate of occupancy. That
is quite enough.

If he/she won't, walk away.
Nonsense. People buy these houses every day.

Pat

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

That's not true at all. I sold a house last year with a basement that I
did off the books. I also know many people that have done the same thing
and had no problem. It is quite a common occurrence, legal or not.

You're right. And the property assessment department couldn't care less. And
the tax assessor couldn't care less, either. I speak from experience.
Pat

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit-Please advise
 

Patscga wrote:

That's not true at all. I sold a house last year with a basement that I
did off the books. I also know many people that have done the same thing
and had no problem. It is quite a common occurrence, legal or not.


You're right. And the property assessment department couldn't care less. And
the tax assessor couldn't care less, either. I speak from experience.
Pat
Hi
Insurance company may care if they know about it when fire broke out.
Tony

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
news:ymxsb.377958$pl3.271758@pd7tw3no...

Insurance company may care if they know about it when fire broke out.
Tony


Possibly if there were code violations that caused the fire. If the entire
house is destroyed, they'd never know anyway. When is the last time your
house was inspected by an insurance company?
Every 10 years the tax assessor makes a visit. Add a bathroom, pay more
taxes because the value went up. No on ever asked about permits though.
They just want the revenue. This year the evaluation was done over the
phone.
Ed

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

"Patscga"wrote in message
That's not true at all. I sold a house last year with a basement that I
did off the books. I also know many people that have done the same thing
and had no problem. It is quite a common occurrence, legal or not.

You're right. And the property assessment department couldn't care less.
And
the tax assessor couldn't care less, either. I speak from experience.
Pat

You're speaking solely of your area. Where I'm sitting, they do assessments
ever 3 years, they base assessment on living area. A basement is not
considered living area unless finished. Those that do not let the county
auditor in for assessment, find their taxes sky high, and soon welcome the
auditor back for a visual assessment after they file a lengthy and time
consuming appeal.

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

In article ,
said...
That's not true at all. I sold a house last year with a basement that I
did off the books. I also know many people that have done the same thing
and had no problem. It is quite a common occurrence, legal or not.

You're right. And the property assessment department couldn't care less. And
the tax assessor couldn't care less, either. I speak from experience.

It's a good thing they don't work on commission.

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

In article ,
said...
The main risk is that if they built right up to the foundation you will
not be able to inspect it's soundness

That does THAT mean?

The soundness of the foundation. If you can't see the walls you won't see
any potential problems. Nobody cares about the soundness of a basement
wall. It's not holding anything up so if it looks plumb, it's good.

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

In article ,
said...
no bank/mortgage company will touch a
property which does not have a Certificate of Occupancy

When the house was originally built, it got a certificate of occupancy. That
is quite enough.

If he/she won't, walk away.
Nonsense. People buy these houses every day.

Likewise, houses with a CO and neglect can be much worse off than one that
was added onto by and good DIY-er. Inspect, inspect, inspect.

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

On 12 Nov 2003, Basha wrote:

You comments greatly appreciated.

I didn't sift through all of the sub-replies, just the top level.
In case nobody mentioned these things:

1) The need for "permits" varies in every single municipality
in the land. Some require a permit for everything, some have
a specific list of projects, some classify need based on
"changing the structural integrity..." or some similar wording.
Check with your muni, that's the ONLY safe way to answer that.

2) As others have pointed out, don't confuse permits with the
quality/safeness of the work. It may still be OK, you need
an inspection to tell you that.

3) That's a lot of living space, and you can almost bet that
it's not documented for tax assessment purposes. Count on
the taxes going WAY up after the cat is out of the bag.

HTH.

--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit-Please advise
 

Hi,
My present house was 100% developed when built by my custom builder.
B4 I used to finish basement myself. Our city has DIY permit for electrical
work and plumbing. Cost is minimal. It includes two inspections. This
goes on city record which means you met the code requirement.
If everything is done in private, there is no supporting document
whether the work was done per code. Insurance coimpany can pick on this as
their excuse. If they tell the owner, your wiring was sub standard which
caused fire. How can the owner counter that? My local government is not
like yours.
Tony

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
news:ymxsb.377958$pl3.271758@pd7tw3no...


Insurance company may care if they know about it when fire broke out.
Tony



Possibly if there were code violations that caused the fire. If the entire
house is destroyed, they'd never know anyway. When is the last time your
house was inspected by an insurance company?
Every 10 years the tax assessor makes a visit. Add a bathroom, pay more
taxes because the value went up. No on ever asked about permits though.
They just want the revenue. This year the evaluation was done over the
phone.
Ed

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

who are you kidding?

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

Sounds too much like what a certain relative of mine did...their new
house's basement and roof leak and rather than fight with the builder,
they finished the basement themselves, and covered the water damage
stains, etc. They are planning on selling without disclosure, and now
deny, even to family members who are well aware of all this, that it
ever happened. In some areas codes are not really enforced, but
lenders may feel otherwise about accepting this. It is up to you but
at least get an inspection. Good luck, hope you find a good house
soon.


(Basha) wrote in message om...
Hi,

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

You comments greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Basha

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

In article ,
said...
On 12 Nov 2003 11:14:15 -0800, (Basha) wrote:

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

I believe there is. Neither you nor a home inspector can see through
the walls. If the electrical wasn't permitted and inspected, how can
you know whether or not it was properly done. Same thing with
plumbing and gas. As to the bedroom, is there legal egress, and if
there is and an enlarged window was installed, was it done correctly
or was the structure compromised?.

I'm a contractor and I've seen enough unpermitted work (usually done
by homeowners) that is poor practice and even unsafe to scare me off.

I'm a DIYer and I've seen enough work by contractors that is poor practice
and even unsafe. I have to live in the house so I trust my work much more
than some guy who knows the aisles at Home Depot and has a sign on his
truck.

My wife and I are currently househunting ... when I come across one
with an unpermitted finished basement, I value the basement
development at minus three thousand dollars (the cost of tearing it
out).

So you don't even give it a chance. It's possible that the job is
actually better than anything you might do.

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

--
The admission of ignorance is the first step on the road to knowledge.
The beginning of understanding is an open mind.
"Basha" wrote in message
m...
Hi,

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

You comments greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Basha

Several.

First off, everything was fine as long as anyone didn't bring it to the
attention of the authorities. Now that they know, they may investigate.
Were you to buy it, you would be the current owner, and would have to allow
inspectors access.

Yes, the risks is there. It may not be up to code. It may be unsafe either
structurally or electrically. It may need an escape system that meets code.

In short, I would not consider buying it until THE OWNER got and paid for
all the legal stuff to make the house legal. You could come back and sue
him for lack of disclosure, but you would spend even more money on lawyers
than it is worth.

You will have enough to do with fixing up. You don't need the hassle of
anything like this to contend with, too.

Steve

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

"Brad" wrote

The soundness of the foundation. If you can't see the walls you won't see
any potential problems. Nobody cares about the soundness of a basement
wall. It's not holding anything up so if it looks plumb, it's good.

Doesn't the basement wall hold up some of the house?

Steve

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

In article KdAsb.1465$Q64.263@fed1read03,
said...

"Brad" wrote

The soundness of the foundation. If you can't see the walls you won't see
any potential problems. Nobody cares about the soundness of a basement
wall. It's not holding anything up so if it looks plumb, it's good.

Doesn't the basement wall hold up some of the house?

I'm talking about what is basically just a partition wall that you put up
when you finish a basement.

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

In article , segunis12508
@hotmail.com said...

who are you kidding?

More importantly, who are you talking to?

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement withoutpermit-Please advise
 

Tony Hwang wrote:

Patscga wrote:

That's not true at all. I sold a house last year with a basement that I
did off the books. I also know many people that have done the same thing
and had no problem. It is quite a common occurrence, legal or not.


You're right. And the property assessment department couldn't care less. And
the tax assessor couldn't care less, either. I speak from experience.
Pat
Hi
Insurance company may care if they know about it when fire broke out.
Tony

Depends where you are IMHO. Insurance companies can be a
different matter; especially when insurance industry profits are
down!
In this township the regulations about 'finishing' a basement are
pretty relaxed. Most people wouldn't even think about a permit
(if one is even required!) and the town doesn't seem to check.
Finishing out a basement area is generally seen as someone having
'improved' the property and added to its market/resale value.
Many homeowners here are excellent do it your selfers, are in the
construction industry themselves or have relatives/friends who
help them out.
But next time (maybe five/ten years later) a tax assessment is
done the 'improvement' may be picked up and the assessed value
increased; to the surprise and remorse of the owner! The 'new'
owner of a purchased property, having made no changes themselves
during those years, then demands to know why 'his' assessment has
increased!
There was a recent house fire (caused by an electrical
malfunction on or near the main panel, at night; the three
occupants were lucky to get out alive! Fortunately none were
sleeping in the basement which had only one exit although some of
the basement windows were at or above grade level, which would
have possibly been an escape if required. AFIK the homeowner got
everything fixed by his insurance company; after all they insured
the house for him just the way he bought it from the
original/previous owner!
But the owners son told me that the insurance company found that
the rapid spread of the fire and an amount of the damage was
aggravated by the manner in which the basement had been
'finished' by the previous owner. Specifically there was a lack
of fire blocking and there were large air spaces behind the wood
framed finished basement uprights walls, which had been added.
The original structure was comprised of partial concrete walls
with a wood framed 'knee wall' on top of the concrete, supporting
the main floor. As a result of the basement being 'finished'
there was, for example, a large open air space behind the added
interior 'basement' wall above the concrete wall that allowed the
fire, once started to spread quickly along one whole side of the
house.
So beware of a) Risky construction and b) What your insurance
might NOT cover; quite apart from c) Risk of death injury to your
family!
Terry.

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

The writer didn't have a basement built; he just "finished" it.
Pat

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

I'm not trying to kid anybody. I'm a real estate broker in Atlanta, GA. I
also am a home owner. I also have neighbors who finished basements themselves
and never had inspections and the houses sold several times after that. I also
have had contractors who have told me they would forego the inspections in
order to save me me from having my property taxes raised. I also have
reported one of these contractors and was told by the County inspection office
that people do that all the time and there's nothing they can do about it.
Pat

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

Speaking from experience:
My current house had a third bedroom added and a garage finished into living
space and a new garage built without permits (at least that I can tell). All
done by a DIY'er. It even made it into a national magazine as a model
project. THings that were done wrong: Grade raised above the top of
foundation, Hot and Nuetral reversed in the garage refinish, Skylights
installed wrong, Bay windows installed wrong, THe upgrage to 100 amp service
did not upgrade the wire leading to the house (so it burnt out when I turned
the AC on), Roof flashing installed wrong, septic tank sized for a 2 bedroom
house, high effiency furnace with no flue liner, lack of GFI's, radiant
heating system incorrectly installed. I could go on but I'm too busy
scratching my head on why some things were done.

Don't get me wrong, I love my house and am slowly correcting things but the
home inspection only caught 2 of the issues. Proper permits and inspections
would have found most of them. Flags should go up if the work was done by a
DIY'er and a more thorough inspection performed. My bank did not even care
if there were permits for past work.

"Basha" wrote in message
m...
Hi,

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

You comments greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Basha

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

In article ,
said...
The writer didn't have a basement built; he just "finished" it.

Please learn to quote the article to which you are responding.

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

On 13 Nov 2003 12:54:53 GMT, (Patscga) wrote:

I'm not trying to kid anybody. I'm a real estate broker in Atlanta, GA. I
also am a home owner. I also have neighbors who finished basements themselves
and never had inspections and the houses sold several times after that. I also
have had contractors who have told me they would forego the inspections in
order to save me me from having my property taxes raised. I also have
reported one of these contractors and was told by the County inspection office
that people do that all the time and there's nothing they can do about it.
Pat


Good point. I'd prefer to have my house (or one to buy) inspected for
safety reasons, but not by a government official.

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

Thanks for all your comments.

The first step I am going to do today is going to the muncipal office
and enquire about this. I will also talk to one of the city
inspectors.

I will post the happenings.

Thanks again.

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

Please learn to quote the article to which you are responding.

Tlle me what I did wrong.
Pat

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:17:06 -0500, Brad wrote:

In article ,
said...
On 12 Nov 2003 11:14:15 -0800, (Basha) wrote:

I am in house hunting for the last one month and found a suitable
house recently. I am thinking of buying it. When I went to to get the
survey map from the city governmemnt, I learned that they don't have a
record of basement finished. The previous owner who actually completed
the basement didn't get the permit for it. The basement has 2
bedrooms, one bathroom and a large family room with fire place. Is
there any risk involved in buying this house?

I believe there is. Neither you nor a home inspector can see through
the walls. If the electrical wasn't permitted and inspected, how can
you know whether or not it was properly done. Same thing with
plumbing and gas. As to the bedroom, is there legal egress, and if
there is and an enlarged window was installed, was it done correctly
or was the structure compromised?.

I'm a contractor and I've seen enough unpermitted work (usually done
by homeowners) that is poor practice and even unsafe to scare me off.

I'm a DIYer and I've seen enough work by contractors that is poor practice
and even unsafe. I have to live in the house so I trust my work much more
than some guy who knows the aisles at Home Depot and has a sign on his
truck.


The point that you seem to have completely missed is that the work was
done without permits or inspections - regardless of how good the
homeowner may be at doing the work the fact remains that if they
didn't do it in accordance with codes that were current at the time
and then have it inspected and it passed, you are left with relying on
any faith you have in the unknown homeowner ability not to cross the
wires or connect the gas lines to the water lines!

The other point that was developed as the thread went along was the
fact that features that were potentially hazardous to the health and
safety of the occupants may have been ignored by the homeowner, i.e.
proper egress from the area that was finished.

My wife and I are currently househunting ... when I come across one
with an unpermitted finished basement, I value the basement
development at minus three thousand dollars (the cost of tearing it
out).

So you don't even give it a chance. It's possible that the job is
actually better than anything you might do.

It can have a chance if at least it could be proved that it was not
necessarily better, but at least that it was in conformance with the
established standards and codes - no permits = no inspections leave
you with a mystery!

Any risk in buying a house with finished basement without permit -Please advise
 

In article ,
said...
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 23:58:48 -0500, Brad wrote:

In article KdAsb.1465$Q64.263@fed1read03,
said...

"Brad" wrote

The soundness of the foundation. If you can't see the walls you won't see
any potential problems. Nobody cares about the soundness of a basement
wall. It's not holding anything up so if it looks plumb, it's good.

Doesn't the basement wall hold up some of the house?

I'm talking about what is basically just a partition wall that you put up
when you finish a basement.

But you said 'soundness of the foundation'.

Yes - that's what you're trying to check, but you can't because there's a
wall covering it. The soundness of the wall doesn't mean anything since
it's not holding anything up.