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  #1   Report Post  
Sparky
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

Hi folks,

I'm hoping that someone wiser than I in matters electrical will offer some
guidance.

I live in an old co-op apartment. There's a single light fixture over the
bathroom mirror/medicine chest. It has an electric outlet as part of the
fixture. The wall switch is really old, and only has 2 wires.

Here's the thing. I just got a new electric toothbrush. I'd like to
wallmount it and keep it plugged in. That socket is useless for this at the
moment though, since when the light is turned off, the socket is off as
well.

What I'd really like to do is replace the switch with a combination switch
and electric outlet, preferably a GFI. Is this possible to do with only 2
wires in the wall? I don't have access to rewiring everything. It's my
impression that such an installation would result in just another wall
socket which will go off when the switch is turned off. Is there a switch
will can control the lamp and yet maintain current to the outlet with only 2
wires?

I was looking at this one:

http://tinyurl.com/ubd2

but I don't fully understand the wiring alternatives here.

If what I'm hoping for is not possible, does anyone have other suggestions?
Perhaps a different light fixture/electric outlet combo, with its own switch
for the light?

In advance, thanks for your help. The toothbrush is important to me, as
it's part of a gum disease care program, and as it is now I have to keep it
plugged in elsewhere, then transport the whole thing (it's big, has a
waterpik like thing too) into the bathroom for use.


  #2   Report Post  
Jim Thompson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 21:44:20 GMT, "Sparky"
wrote:

Hi folks,

I'm hoping that someone wiser than I in matters electrical will offer some
guidance.

I live in an old co-op apartment. There's a single light fixture over the
bathroom mirror/medicine chest. It has an electric outlet as part of the
fixture. The wall switch is really old, and only has 2 wires.

Here's the thing. I just got a new electric toothbrush. I'd like to
wallmount it and keep it plugged in. That socket is useless for this at the
moment though, since when the light is turned off, the socket is off as
well.

What I'd really like to do is replace the switch with a combination switch
and electric outlet, preferably a GFI. Is this possible to do with only 2
wires in the wall? I don't have access to rewiring everything. It's my
impression that such an installation would result in just another wall
socket which will go off when the switch is turned off. Is there a switch
will can control the lamp and yet maintain current to the outlet with only 2
wires?

I was looking at this one:

http://tinyurl.com/ubd2

but I don't fully understand the wiring alternatives here.

If what I'm hoping for is not possible, does anyone have other suggestions?
Perhaps a different light fixture/electric outlet combo, with its own switch
for the light?

In advance, thanks for your help. The toothbrush is important to me, as
it's part of a gum disease care program, and as it is now I have to keep it
plugged in elsewhere, then transport the whole thing (it's big, has a
waterpik like thing too) into the bathroom for use.


If you open the fixture how many wires do you see? Colors? Color of
wires at switch?

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
  #3   Report Post  
Sparky
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

2 wires connected at the switch. Red and black. There's a second red wire
connected to a screw in the back of the switch's box; I'm assuming that's
ground.

I haven't opened the fixture, since it's been painted to the wall several
times it'll be quite a project. If it's important though, I will.

Thanks again.

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 21:44:20 GMT, "Sparky"
wrote:

Hi folks,

I'm hoping that someone wiser than I in matters electrical will
offer some guidance.

I live in an old co-op apartment. There's a single light fixture
over the bathroom mirror/medicine chest. It has an electric outlet
as part of the fixture. The wall switch is really old, and only has
2 wires.

Here's the thing. I just got a new electric toothbrush. I'd like to
wallmount it and keep it plugged in. That socket is useless for
this at the moment though, since when the light is turned off, the
socket is off as well.

What I'd really like to do is replace the switch with a combination
switch and electric outlet, preferably a GFI. Is this possible to
do with only 2 wires in the wall? I don't have access to rewiring
everything. It's my impression that such an installation would
result in just another wall socket which will go off when the switch
is turned off. Is there a switch will can control the lamp and yet
maintain current to the outlet with only 2 wires?

I was looking at this one:

http://tinyurl.com/ubd2

but I don't fully understand the wiring alternatives here.

If what I'm hoping for is not possible, does anyone have other
suggestions? Perhaps a different light fixture/electric outlet
combo, with its own switch for the light?

In advance, thanks for your help. The toothbrush is important to
me, as it's part of a gum disease care program, and as it is now I
have to keep it plugged in elsewhere, then transport the whole thing
(it's big, has a waterpik like thing too) into the bathroom for use.


If you open the fixture how many wires do you see? Colors? Color of
wires at switch?

...Jim Thompson
James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |


I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.



  #4   Report Post  
Jim Thompson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 22:10:31 GMT, "Sparky"
wrote:

2 wires connected at the switch. Red and black. There's a second red wire
connected to a screw in the back of the switch's box; I'm assuming that's
ground.

I haven't opened the fixture, since it's been painted to the wall several
times it'll be quite a project. If it's important though, I will.

Thanks again.

Jim Thompson wrote:

[snip]
If you open the fixture how many wires do you see? Colors? Color of
wires at switch?

...Jim Thompson

[snip]

Hmmmm! Sounds like a 3-way switch. Is there another switch location
which controls the fixture?

To get the fixture loose run a penknife around the edge until you cut
thru the paint.

If you're in luck power will have been brought directly to the fixture
*then* to the switch. (Which, IIRC, is code?)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
  #5   Report Post  
Sparky
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

Nope, there's no other switch. It's a tiny bathroom.

If I open the fixture, what exactly am I looking for in order to make the
determination of whether power goes to the fixture and then the switch? Or
is that even relevant if it's not a 3 way switch installation?

Sparky

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 22:10:31 GMT, "Sparky"
wrote:

2 wires connected at the switch. Red and black. There's a second
red wire connected to a screw in the back of the switch's box; I'm
assuming that's ground.

I haven't opened the fixture, since it's been painted to the wall
several times it'll be quite a project. If it's important though, I
will.

Thanks again.

Jim Thompson wrote:

[snip]
If you open the fixture how many wires do you see? Colors? Color
of wires at switch?

...Jim Thompson

[snip]

Hmmmm! Sounds like a 3-way switch. Is there another switch location
which controls the fixture?

To get the fixture loose run a penknife around the edge until you cut
thru the paint.

If you're in luck power will have been brought directly to the fixture
*then* to the switch. (Which, IIRC, is code?)

...Jim Thompson
James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |


I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.





  #6   Report Post  
Chuckles
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

"Sparky" wrote in
:

2 wires connected at the switch. Red and black. There's a second red
wire connected to a screw in the back of the switch's box; I'm
assuming that's ground.


The problem is, this is not enough to run the power outlet which is also
in the same box. All the switch does is connect and disconnect the two
wires connected to separate terminals on the body of the switch. When the
switch is closed, power goes through the switch to the light, which
already has a neutral wire permanently connected to it. So the wiring
is:

live (red?) from elec panel to switch---wire (black?) from switch to
light---neutral wire back to panel

(or something like that). So when the switch is closed, the circuit is
completed and the light goes on.

But the electrical outlet will not function without a neutral wire AT THE
OUTLET to complete the circuit. There must be another wire, and I don't
mean ground.

If there is a neutral wire, you can easily rewire so the power to the
outlet bypasses the switch and is always on. Just detemrine whether the
red wire or the black wire is live irrespective of the switch, and
connect a wire from it straight to the outlet.

If there is no neutral, either some fundamental natural laws are being
violated, or maybe the ground is being used as neutral, which is a bad
thing to do.
  #7   Report Post  
Marlow & Jenny Yoder
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch


"Chuckles" wrote in message
s.com...
"Sparky" wrote in
:

2 wires connected at the switch. Red and black. There's a second red
wire connected to a screw in the back of the switch's box; I'm
assuming that's ground.


The problem is, this is not enough to run the power outlet which is also
in the same box. All the switch does is connect and disconnect the two
wires connected to separate terminals on the body of the switch. When the
switch is closed, power goes through the switch to the light, which
already has a neutral wire permanently connected to it. So the wiring
is:

live (red?) from elec panel to switch---wire (black?) from switch to
light---neutral wire back to panel

(or something like that). So when the switch is closed, the circuit is
completed and the light goes on.

But the electrical outlet will not function without a neutral wire AT THE
OUTLET to complete the circuit. There must be another wire, and I don't
mean ground.

If there is a neutral wire, you can easily rewire so the power to the
outlet bypasses the switch and is always on. Just detemrine whether the
red wire or the black wire is live irrespective of the switch, and
connect a wire from it straight to the outlet.

If there is no neutral, either some fundamental natural laws are being
violated, or maybe the ground is being used as neutral, which is a bad
thing to do.


Sounds like the power is at the fixture. Black sends power to the switch
and red is the switch leg which carries power back to the light when the
switch is on. The neutral remains at the the light fixture. Most likely
there isn't a neutral at the switch. If there is conduit connecting the
switch and the fixture a neutral could be ran to the switch to install the
GFCI receptical/ switch combo.


  #8   Report Post  
Sparky
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

Thanks, but I can't open the wall to run another wire. All I see is a thick
cable running into the switch box.. out of that comes the 3 wires. Nothing
really I can do to run a new wire between the fixture and the switch.

Marlow & Jenny Yoder wrote:
"Chuckles" wrote in message
s.com...
"Sparky" wrote in
:

2 wires connected at the switch. Red and black. There's a second
red wire connected to a screw in the back of the switch's box; I'm
assuming that's ground.


The problem is, this is not enough to run the power outlet which is
also in the same box. All the switch does is connect and disconnect
the two wires connected to separate terminals on the body of the
switch. When the switch is closed, power goes through the switch to
the light, which already has a neutral wire permanently connected to
it. So the wiring is:

live (red?) from elec panel to switch---wire (black?) from switch to
light---neutral wire back to panel

(or something like that). So when the switch is closed, the circuit
is completed and the light goes on.

But the electrical outlet will not function without a neutral wire
AT THE OUTLET to complete the circuit. There must be another wire,
and I don't mean ground.

If there is a neutral wire, you can easily rewire so the power to the
outlet bypasses the switch and is always on. Just detemrine whether
the red wire or the black wire is live irrespective of the switch,
and connect a wire from it straight to the outlet.

If there is no neutral, either some fundamental natural laws are
being violated, or maybe the ground is being used as neutral, which
is a bad thing to do.


Sounds like the power is at the fixture. Black sends power to the
switch and red is the switch leg which carries power back to the
light when the switch is on. The neutral remains at the the light
fixture. Most likely there isn't a neutral at the switch. If there
is conduit connecting the switch and the fixture a neutral could be
ran to the switch to install the GFCI receptical/ switch combo.



  #9   Report Post  
Jim Thompson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 00:02:59 GMT, "Sparky"
wrote:

Thanks, but I can't open the wall to run another wire. All I see is a thick
cable running into the switch box.. out of that comes the 3 wires. Nothing
really I can do to run a new wire between the fixture and the switch.

[snip]

We really need to know what's in the fixture. Once we know that we
can suggest some tests to figure out how it's wired.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
  #10   Report Post  
HA HA Budys Here
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

From: Jim Thompson lid


On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 22:10:31 GMT, "Sparky"
wrote:

2 wires connected at the switch. Red and black. There's a second red wire
connected to a screw in the back of the switch's box; I'm assuming that's
ground.

I haven't opened the fixture, since it's been painted to the wall several
times it'll be quite a project. If it's important though, I will.

Thanks again.

Jim Thompson wrote:

[snip]
If you open the fixture how many wires do you see? Colors? Color of
wires at switch?

...Jim Thompson

[snip]

Hmmmm! Sounds like a 3-way switch. Is there another switch location
which controls the fixture?

To get the fixture loose run a penknife around the edge until you cut
thru the paint.

If you're in luck power will have been brought directly to the fixture
*then* to the switch. (Which, IIRC, is code?)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.


You engineers are weird. "If you're in luck power will have been brought
directly to the fixture*then* to the switch. (Which, IIRC, is code?)"

Actually, he's *si+ outta luck. IF he was truly lucky, power would have been
brought directly to the switch *first*, then continued on in a 2-wire (with
ground) cable to the light. That way, future conversion would have been simpler
- the feed, neutral, and switchleg would all be exactly where they're needed.

Why, if I may ask, would you think it advantageous, if not code (It isn't BTW,
codes are written for a safe and usuable electrical system, not future add-ons
or expansions) to have power at the fixture first? That almost always results
in the switch having only the feed and switchleg, and no neutral. Now
impossible to have a receptacle at the switch location. Sounds like this
building is very old.

AT any rate, back to the OP's issue...

First, it's very odd to have 2 reds and a black wire within 1 cable. 2 wire
cable (with ground, or the sheath if the cable is BX armored) is always black &
white, with a bare copper ground wire, (or the sheath if the cable is BX
armored) You should only find red in a 3-wire cable - black, white & red, and a
bare copper ground.(Or the sheath if the cable is BX armored)

Are you absolutely certian there's no white wire in the switch box?






  #11   Report Post  
Jim Thompson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

On 10 Nov 2003 01:20:21 GMT, (HA HA Budys Here)
wrote:

From: Jim Thompson
lid


On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 22:10:31 GMT, "Sparky"
wrote:

2 wires connected at the switch. Red and black. There's a second red wire
connected to a screw in the back of the switch's box; I'm assuming that's
ground.

I haven't opened the fixture, since it's been painted to the wall several
times it'll be quite a project. If it's important though, I will.

Thanks again.

Jim Thompson wrote:

[snip]
If you open the fixture how many wires do you see? Colors? Color of
wires at switch?

...Jim Thompson

[snip]

Hmmmm! Sounds like a 3-way switch. Is there another switch location
which controls the fixture?

To get the fixture loose run a penknife around the edge until you cut
thru the paint.

If you're in luck power will have been brought directly to the fixture
*then* to the switch. (Which, IIRC, is code?)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.


You engineers are weird. "If you're in luck power will have been brought
directly to the fixture*then* to the switch. (Which, IIRC, is code?)"

Actually, he's *si+ outta luck. IF he was truly lucky, power would have been
brought directly to the switch *first*, then continued on in a 2-wire (with
ground) cable to the light. That way, future conversion would have been simpler
- the feed, neutral, and switchleg would all be exactly where they're needed.

Why, if I may ask, would you think it advantageous, if not code (It isn't BTW,
codes are written for a safe and usuable electrical system, not future add-ons
or expansions) to have power at the fixture first? That almost always results
in the switch having only the feed and switchleg, and no neutral. Now
impossible to have a receptacle at the switch location. Sounds like this
building is very old.

AT any rate, back to the OP's issue...

First, it's very odd to have 2 reds and a black wire within 1 cable. 2 wire
cable (with ground, or the sheath if the cable is BX armored) is always black &
white, with a bare copper ground wire, (or the sheath if the cable is BX
armored) You should only find red in a 3-wire cable - black, white & red, and a
bare copper ground.(Or the sheath if the cable is BX armored)

Are you absolutely certian there's no white wire in the switch box?




Maybe he's color-blind ?:-)

If power were brought to the fixture, then a loop-wired switch link,
he'd have power available *at the fixture* for an *always-on*
receptacle.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
|
http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
  #12   Report Post  
HA HA Budys Here
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

Subject: Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch
From: Jim Thompson lid
Date: 11/9/2003 8:28 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

On 10 Nov 2003 01:20:21 GMT,
(HA HA Budys Here)
wrote:

From: Jim Thompson
lid


On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 22:10:31 GMT, "Sparky"
wrote:

2 wires connected at the switch. Red and black. There's a second red

wire
connected to a screw in the back of the switch's box; I'm assuming that's
ground.

I haven't opened the fixture, since it's been painted to the wall several
times it'll be quite a project. If it's important though, I will.

Thanks again.

Jim Thompson wrote:
[snip]
If you open the fixture how many wires do you see? Colors? Color of
wires at switch?

...Jim Thompson
[snip]

Hmmmm! Sounds like a 3-way switch. Is there another switch location
which controls the fixture?

To get the fixture loose run a penknife around the edge until you cut
thru the paint.

If you're in luck power will have been brought directly to the fixture
*then* to the switch. (Which, IIRC, is code?)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.


You engineers are weird. "If you're in luck power will have been brought
directly to the fixture*then* to the switch. (Which, IIRC, is code?)"

Actually, he's *si+ outta luck. IF he was truly lucky, power would have been
brought directly to the switch *first*, then continued on in a 2-wire (with
ground) cable to the light. That way, future conversion would have been

simpler
- the feed, neutral, and switchleg would all be exactly where they're

needed.

Why, if I may ask, would you think it advantageous, if not code (It isn't

BTW,
codes are written for a safe and usuable electrical system, not future

add-ons
or expansions) to have power at the fixture first? That almost always

results
in the switch having only the feed and switchleg, and no neutral. Now
impossible to have a receptacle at the switch location. Sounds like this
building is very old.

AT any rate, back to the OP's issue...

First, it's very odd to have 2 reds and a black wire within 1 cable. 2 wire
cable (with ground, or the sheath if the cable is BX armored) is always

black &
white, with a bare copper ground wire, (or the sheath if the cable is BX
armored) You should only find red in a 3-wire cable - black, white & red,

and a
bare copper ground.(Or the sheath if the cable is BX armored)

Are you absolutely certian there's no white wire in the switch box?




Maybe he's color-blind ?:-)


I'm hoping that is the case, or at least somehow this cable's insulation has
faded or somehow become distinctly different over time. It has happened, as
much of the "blue" cloth-insulated 500KcMil in Rockerfeller center has turned
green. (Really scares the pants off the apprentices)


If power were brought to the fixture, then a loop-wired switch link,
he'd have power available *at the fixture* for an *always-on*
receptacle.

...Jim Thompson


The issue I'd have with that solution is that those snap-in fixture outlets
were never meant to handle modern loads such as 1500w - 1800-w hair dryers.
They're almost always connected to #18 awg. fixture leads.

Another issue is it wouldn't be GFCI protected, and is not only in the
bathroom, but directly over the sink. I can just picture this old bathroom with
what is most likely a pedestal stink, and this on- 24/7 monstrosity of an
appliance falling into the sink or toilet.

At any rate, the multiple layers of paint issue aside - it's not too bad a fix
if the medicine chest is recessed, with the light either incorperated in it or
directly above it. Usually, removing the cabinet exposes the entire wall
cavity, and a new cable and proper GFCI outlet, on full time, can be installed
without the need for any patchwork afterwards.


  #13   Report Post  
Chuckles
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

"Marlow & Jenny Yoder" wrote in
:

Sounds like the power is at the fixture.


But of course, since the light goes on.

Black sends power to the
switch and red is the switch leg which carries power back to the light
when the switch is on. The neutral remains at the the light fixture.
Most likely there isn't a neutral at the switch.


But he says there is a power outlet at the switch, and it works when the
switch is on.

Unless I have misunderstood the original post.
  #14   Report Post  
Thund3rstruck
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

Thund3rSUCK Spilled my beer when they jumped on the table and
proclaimed in :

Jim "anal fissure" Thompson wrote:



Hmmmm! Sounds like a 3-way switch.


Nobody cares about your sex life anymore than they care about your
stupid sig line, pussy.


Oh wow! I ****ed off a troll!

So sad, too bad...

NOI
  #15   Report Post  
Sparky
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

It's not recessed, the medicine chest. It's stuck on the wall. Again, I do
NOT have access to the wiring other than at the points where they actually
exit the wall, at the switch and at the fixture. The light fixture is above
the medicine chest, but removing the chest will reveal nothing. It's just
attached to the wall.

No I'm not colorblind, no I'm not stupid. This wiring has not been touched
since this building was first put up in 1950. So no, it's not up to current
codes, standards, etc.

Sorry but I'm just trying to be clear. I really was just asking a question,
and so far I've seen curses tossed towards each other, suggestions that have
nothing to do with my original post, etc.

Thanks for the help.

HA HA Budys Here wrote:
Subject: Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch
From: Jim Thompson lid
Date: 11/9/2003 8:28 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

On 10 Nov 2003 01:20:21 GMT,
(HA HA Budys Here)
wrote:

From: Jim Thompson
lid


On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 22:10:31 GMT, "Sparky"
wrote:

2 wires connected at the switch. Red and black. There's a
second red wire connected to a screw in the back of the switch's
box; I'm assuming that's ground.

I haven't opened the fixture, since it's been painted to the wall
several times it'll be quite a project. If it's important
though, I will.

Thanks again.

Jim Thompson wrote:
[snip]
If you open the fixture how many wires do you see? Colors?
Color of wires at switch?

...Jim Thompson
[snip]

Hmmmm! Sounds like a 3-way switch. Is there another switch
location which controls the fixture?

To get the fixture loose run a penknife around the edge until you
cut thru the paint.

If you're in luck power will have been brought directly to the
fixture *then* to the switch. (Which, IIRC, is code?)

...Jim Thompson
--
James E.Thompson, P.E.

You engineers are weird. "If you're in luck power will have been
brought directly to the fixture*then* to the switch. (Which, IIRC,
is code?)"

Actually, he's *si+ outta luck. IF he was truly lucky, power would
have been brought directly to the switch *first*, then continued on
in a 2-wire (with ground) cable to the light. That way, future
conversion would have been simpler - the feed, neutral, and
switchleg would all be exactly where they're needed.

Why, if I may ask, would you think it advantageous, if not code (It
isn't BTW, codes are written for a safe and usuable electrical
system, not future add-ons or expansions) to have power at the
fixture first? That almost always results in the switch having only
the feed and switchleg, and no neutral. Now impossible to have a
receptacle at the switch location. Sounds like this building is
very old.

AT any rate, back to the OP's issue...

First, it's very odd to have 2 reds and a black wire within 1
cable. 2 wire cable (with ground, or the sheath if the cable is BX
armored) is always black & white, with a bare copper ground wire,
(or the sheath if the cable is BX armored) You should only find red
in a 3-wire cable - black, white & red, and a bare copper
ground.(Or the sheath if the cable is BX armored)

Are you absolutely certian there's no white wire in the switch box?




Maybe he's color-blind ?:-)


I'm hoping that is the case, or at least somehow this cable's
insulation has faded or somehow become distinctly different over
time. It has happened, as much of the "blue" cloth-insulated 500KcMil
in Rockerfeller center has turned green. (Really scares the pants off
the apprentices)


If power were brought to the fixture, then a loop-wired switch link,
he'd have power available *at the fixture* for an *always-on*
receptacle.

...Jim Thompson


The issue I'd have with that solution is that those snap-in fixture
outlets were never meant to handle modern loads such as 1500w -
1800-w hair dryers. They're almost always connected to #18 awg.
fixture leads.

Another issue is it wouldn't be GFCI protected, and is not only in the
bathroom, but directly over the sink. I can just picture this old
bathroom with what is most likely a pedestal stink, and this on- 24/7
monstrosity of an appliance falling into the sink or toilet.

At any rate, the multiple layers of paint issue aside - it's not too
bad a fix if the medicine chest is recessed, with the light either
incorperated in it or directly above it. Usually, removing the
cabinet exposes the entire wall cavity, and a new cable and proper
GFCI outlet, on full time, can be installed without the need for any
patchwork afterwards.





  #16   Report Post  
Sparky
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

Thanks Jim, I'll pull it off the wall tomorrow and let you know.

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 00:02:59 GMT, "Sparky"
wrote:

Thanks, but I can't open the wall to run another wire. All I see is
a thick cable running into the switch box.. out of that comes the 3
wires. Nothing really I can do to run a new wire between the
fixture and the switch.

[snip]

We really need to know what's in the fixture. Once we know that we
can suggest some tests to figure out how it's wired.

...Jim Thompson
James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |


I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.



  #17   Report Post  
Sparky
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

Thanks, but that's NOT what I said at all. I said I want to ADD that
capability.

Chuckles wrote:
"Marlow & Jenny Yoder" wrote in
:

Sounds like the power is at the fixture.


But of course, since the light goes on.

Black sends power to the
switch and red is the switch leg which carries power back to the
light when the switch is on. The neutral remains at the the light
fixture. Most likely there isn't a neutral at the switch.


But he says there is a power outlet at the switch, and it works when
the switch is on.

Unless I have misunderstood the original post.



  #18   Report Post  
Chuckles
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

"Sparky" wrote in news:C8Drb.131958
:

Thanks, but that's NOT what I said at all. I said I want to ADD that
capability.


Oh, well, then, never mind.
  #19   Report Post  
Sparky
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

Thanks for the try though. I didn't mean to come off as bitchy. When I got
back here and saw some arguments aimed towards someone who's just trying
offer some help, it kinda set me off.

Chuckles wrote:
"Sparky" wrote in news:C8Drb.131958
:

Thanks, but that's NOT what I said at all. I said I want to ADD that
capability.


Oh, well, then, never mind.



  #20   Report Post  
Marilyn and Bob
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

Sparky,
Let's try this again. You asked what you thought was a simple question, but
what you described as the wire colors in the box is so non-standard (and was
non-standard in 1950) that people are having difficulty understand what is
actually in the box your switch is in. What is important here is that if
there is no neutral wire in that box (a distinct possibility) there is NO
WAY you can put an outlet there without a rewiring job which would add that
neutral wire, which you say you are not prepared to do.
--
Peace,
BobJ

"Sparky" wrote in message
...
Thanks Jim, I'll pull it off the wall tomorrow and let you know.

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 00:02:59 GMT, "Sparky"
wrote:

Thanks, but I can't open the wall to run another wire. All I see is
a thick cable running into the switch box.. out of that comes the 3
wires. Nothing really I can do to run a new wire between the
fixture and the switch.

[snip]

We really need to know what's in the fixture. Once we know that we
can suggest some tests to figure out how it's wired.

...Jim Thompson
James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |


I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.






  #21   Report Post  
Jim Thompson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 16:08:13 GMT, "Marilyn and Bob"
wrote:

Sparky,
Let's try this again. You asked what you thought was a simple question, but
what you described as the wire colors in the box is so non-standard (and was
non-standard in 1950) that people are having difficulty understand what is
actually in the box your switch is in. What is important here is that if
there is no neutral wire in that box (a distinct possibility) there is NO
WAY you can put an outlet there without a rewiring job which would add that
neutral wire, which you say you are not prepared to do.


I used to keep several rolls of vinyl tape... red, black, white and
green... to "re-color-code" hack wiring jobs that I couldn't
extract/replace from walls.

Disconnect everything, ohm out or use a tracer, then "color-code" and
re-connect as needed.

Fortunately I'm now in a new house that I watched them wire and
everything is Kosher.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
  #22   Report Post  
Sparky
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

Thanks Bob,

I still haven't gotten around to taking off the lighting fixture itself. If
necessary, I'll try to get to it tomorrow while there's still adequate
ambient light.

I opened the switch again though. Here's what I see, and the colors are a
bit different than I thought at first.

There's a black cable coming into the box. As far as I can see into it
(till it vanishes into the wall) there are 3 wires emerging from that cable.
One is black, and one is sorta burnt orange. There are the 2 which are
connected to the switch. The third wire is red (for sure), and it's
attached with a screw to the back of the box itself, not to the switch.

I took pictures, but not posting here because this is not a binaries group.
If anyone would like to see them, and of course I'd appreciate the help,
please let me know and I'll send out a couple of small (but detailed) jpegs.

Thanks again,

Sparky

Marilyn and Bob wrote:
Sparky,
Let's try this again. You asked what you thought was a simple
question, but what you described as the wire colors in the box is so
non-standard (and was non-standard in 1950) that people are having
difficulty understand what is actually in the box your switch is in.
What is important here is that if there is no neutral wire in that
box (a distinct possibility) there is NO WAY you can put an outlet
there without a rewiring job which would add that neutral wire, which
you say you are not prepared to do.

"Sparky" wrote in message
...
Thanks Jim, I'll pull it off the wall tomorrow and let you know.

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 00:02:59 GMT, "Sparky"
wrote:

Thanks, but I can't open the wall to run another wire. All I see
is a thick cable running into the switch box.. out of that comes
the 3 wires. Nothing really I can do to run a new wire between the
fixture and the switch.

[snip]

We really need to know what's in the fixture. Once we know that we
can suggest some tests to figure out how it's wired.

...Jim Thompson
James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.



  #23   Report Post  
Jim Thompson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:22:33 GMT, "Sparky"
wrote:

Thanks Bob,

I still haven't gotten around to taking off the lighting fixture itself. If
necessary, I'll try to get to it tomorrow while there's still adequate
ambient light.

I opened the switch again though. Here's what I see, and the colors are a
bit different than I thought at first.

There's a black cable coming into the box. As far as I can see into it
(till it vanishes into the wall) there are 3 wires emerging from that cable.
One is black, and one is sorta burnt orange. There are the 2 which are
connected to the switch. The third wire is red (for sure), and it's
attached with a screw to the back of the box itself, not to the switch.

I took pictures, but not posting here because this is not a binaries group.
If anyone would like to see them, and of course I'd appreciate the help,
please let me know and I'll send out a couple of small (but detailed) jpegs.

Thanks again,

Sparky

[snip]

Obtain my legitimate E-mail address at my website and send me the
pictures. I'm on a high-speed connection so don't worry about the
file size.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
  #24   Report Post  
Sparky
 
Posts: n/a
Default Problem with replacing a bathroom light switch

Thanks Jim, I sent 3 pics to the "inquiries" address. Hope that's the right
one. Appreciate your help.

Sparky

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:22:33 GMT, "Sparky"
wrote:

Thanks Bob,

I still haven't gotten around to taking off the lighting fixture
itself. If necessary, I'll try to get to it tomorrow while there's
still adequate ambient light.

I opened the switch again though. Here's what I see, and the colors
are a bit different than I thought at first.

There's a black cable coming into the box. As far as I can see into
it (till it vanishes into the wall) there are 3 wires emerging from
that cable. One is black, and one is sorta burnt orange. There are
the 2 which are connected to the switch. The third wire is red (for
sure), and it's attached with a screw to the back of the box itself,
not to the switch.

I took pictures, but not posting here because this is not a binaries
group. If anyone would like to see them, and of course I'd
appreciate the help, please let me know and I'll send out a couple
of small (but detailed) jpegs.

Thanks again,

Sparky

[snip]

Obtain my legitimate E-mail address at my website and send me the
pictures. I'm on a high-speed connection so don't worry about the
file size.

...Jim Thompson
James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |


I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.



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