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  #1   Report Post  
JNJ
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ventless Gas Fireplaces.

Ok, I give. The byproducts of burning natural gas include carbon monoxide,
PCBs, particulates, and so forth. Yet, we have these nifty gas fireplaces
that have no vents. As the stores that sell them will quickly tell you --
no vents are needed, there's no exhaust.

Huh? It's a simple reaction -- the byproducts must go somewhere. So what's
the deal with these things? Are they just that efficient? Is the exhaust
just so minute that it's not worth noticing? How do these things work?

James


  #2   Report Post  
Joseph Meehan
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ventless Gas Fireplaces.

"JNJ" wrote in message
...
Ok, I give. The byproducts of burning natural gas include carbon

monoxide,
PCBs, particulates, and so forth.


Back to chemistry class. Natural gas is mostly methane CH4 Burned
properly you get H2O and CO2 . The modern ones include CO detectors that
shut it down if the CO gets going. Under normal operation it is not a
problem.


Yet, we have these nifty gas fireplaces
that have no vents. As the stores that sell them will quickly tell you --
no vents are needed, there's no exhaust.

Huh? It's a simple reaction -- the byproducts must go somewhere. So

what's
the deal with these things? Are they just that efficient? Is the exhaust
just so minute that it's not worth noticing? How do these things work?

James




  #3   Report Post  
dkarnes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ventless Gas Fireplaces.

JNJ wrote:

Ok, I give. The byproducts of burning natural gas include carbon monoxide,
PCBs, particulates, and so forth. Yet, we have these nifty gas fireplaces
that have no vents. As the stores that sell them will quickly tell you --
no vents are needed, there's no exhaust.

Huh? It's a simple reaction -- the byproducts must go somewhere. So what's
the deal with these things? Are they just that efficient? Is the exhaust
just so minute that it's not worth noticing? How do these things work?

James


just my opinion, go with a direct vent. i would not have vent free.


  #4   Report Post  
TURTLE
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ventless Gas Fireplaces.


"JNJ" wrote in message
...
Ok, I give. The byproducts of burning natural gas include carbon

monoxide,
PCBs, particulates, and so forth. Yet, we have these nifty gas fireplaces
that have no vents. As the stores that sell them will quickly tell you --
no vents are needed, there's no exhaust.

Huh? It's a simple reaction -- the byproducts must go somewhere. So

what's
the deal with these things? Are they just that efficient? Is the exhaust
just so minute that it's not worth noticing? How do these things work?

James


This is Turtle.

The ventless models get away with no vent because the panel Ray type burns
at about 3,000 ºF . All the carbon is burnt up and you have no carbon to
make CO with. Now it can burn up all the O2 and be bad too , but they have
sencer on them to turn it off it this happens.

When gas or anything else burns at 3,000ºF there is nothing left to make
anything else out of the vent vapors.

TURTLE


  #5   Report Post  
JNJ
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ventless Gas Fireplaces.

Ok, I give. The byproducts of burning natural gas include carbon
monoxide, PCBs, particulates, and so forth.


Back to chemistry class. Natural gas is mostly methane CH4 Burned
properly you get H2O and CO2 . The modern ones include CO detectors that
shut it down if the CO gets going. Under normal operation it is not a
problem.


Although predominantly methane (typically 92%-95%), the actual chemical
composition of natural gas varies depending on its source and processing and
includes several other items in small to trace amounts. When it burns the
byproducts are primarily water vapor and carbon dioxide but also a variety
of other things including carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides, particulate
matter (such as soot/creosote), and pipeline contaminants. Even if the
equipment is functioning as designed, these items are being burned along
with the methane.

Obviously, these are for the main part negligible -- they're just not a
primary factor and this is why natural gas is considered to be a "clean"
fossil fuel, if not the cleanest altogether. I'm not one of those types
that are down on NG by any stretch -- if we gotta use fossil fuel, I'd
really rather use that one among the alternatives.

It's good that most models include a CO detector but that's not the only
exhaust issue here. It's just difficult to believe that these units, even
when operating properly, do not contribute to air quality issues --
especially since they're run in cooler weather when houses are sealed up
fairly tight. (I'm aware they have oxygen detectors to ensure they do not
take too much.) I suppose my real question is just what makes these any
different than a furnace or other NG appliance that it's ok to vent them
right into the room?





  #6   Report Post  
Joseph Meehan
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ventless Gas Fireplaces.

Frankly I would not have one for regular us in my home, and I generally
advise that, but I don't believe current models are a serious health hazard.
Those kero burners really worry me however.

BTW I do own one and I keep it as a backup for a long term winter power
outage. It is not even hooked up, but I have all the parts and tools ready
to hook it up if I need it.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math


"JNJ" wrote in message
...
Ok, I give. The byproducts of burning natural gas include carbon
monoxide, PCBs, particulates, and so forth.


Back to chemistry class. Natural gas is mostly methane CH4 Burned
properly you get H2O and CO2 . The modern ones include CO detectors

that
shut it down if the CO gets going. Under normal operation it is not a
problem.


Although predominantly methane (typically 92%-95%), the actual chemical
composition of natural gas varies depending on its source and processing

and
includes several other items in small to trace amounts. When it burns the
byproducts are primarily water vapor and carbon dioxide but also a variety
of other things including carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides, particulate
matter (such as soot/creosote), and pipeline contaminants. Even if the
equipment is functioning as designed, these items are being burned along
with the methane.

Obviously, these are for the main part negligible -- they're just not a
primary factor and this is why natural gas is considered to be a "clean"
fossil fuel, if not the cleanest altogether. I'm not one of those types
that are down on NG by any stretch -- if we gotta use fossil fuel, I'd
really rather use that one among the alternatives.

It's good that most models include a CO detector but that's not the only
exhaust issue here. It's just difficult to believe that these units, even
when operating properly, do not contribute to air quality issues --
especially since they're run in cooler weather when houses are sealed up
fairly tight. (I'm aware they have oxygen detectors to ensure they do not
take too much.) I suppose my real question is just what makes these any
different than a furnace or other NG appliance that it's ok to vent them
right into the room?





  #7   Report Post  
MaxAluminum
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ventless Gas Fireplaces.

dkarnes wrote in message ...
JNJ wrote:

Ok, I give. The byproducts of burning natural gas include carbon monoxide,
PCBs, particulates, and so forth. Yet, we have these nifty gas fireplaces
that have no vents. As the stores that sell them will quickly tell you --
no vents are needed, there's no exhaust.

Huh? It's a simple reaction -- the byproducts must go somewhere. So what's
the deal with these things? Are they just that efficient? Is the exhaust
just so minute that it's not worth noticing? How do these things work?

James


just my opinion, go with a direct vent. i would not have vent free.


Ventless heaters keep coming on and off the market. They can be very
efficient since you are getting all the heat. Yes, you are breathing
all the byproducts. You will find that the water vapor produced will
steam up the windows all the time and sometimes cause rusty drywall
nails in the ceiling. When other chemicals are used in the house, such
as a small paint project, the smell will be greatly magnified. Some
people have headaches when the furnace is in use. These are some of
the costs of not venting.

PS. Same goes for any gas stove or oven. It's a good practice to crack
a window in the kitchen when using them. Even a small vent is quite
helpful.
  #8   Report Post  
gini52
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ventless Gas Fireplaces.


"MaxAluminum" wrote in message
om...
dkarnes wrote in message

...
JNJ wrote:

Ok, I give. The byproducts of burning natural gas include carbon

monoxide,
PCBs, particulates, and so forth. Yet, we have these nifty gas

fireplaces
that have no vents. As the stores that sell them will quickly tell

you --
no vents are needed, there's no exhaust.

Huh? It's a simple reaction -- the byproducts must go somewhere. So

what's
the deal with these things? Are they just that efficient? Is the

exhaust
just so minute that it's not worth noticing? How do these things

work?

James


just my opinion, go with a direct vent. i would not have vent free.


Ventless heaters keep coming on and off the market. They can be very
efficient since you are getting all the heat. Yes, you are breathing
all the byproducts. You will find that the water vapor produced will
steam up the windows all the time and sometimes cause rusty drywall
nails in the ceiling.

==
I keep hearing this and don't doubt it happens--but, it doesn't happen in my
house
with my unvented LP gas fireplace. Any idea why? It's a 6 year old house,
well insulated. I do leave
a window near the FP open slightly all winter as recommended by the
manufacturer. The FP is
larger than we need so we don't run it for very long at a time as it gets
too hot in the house. Might
this be the reason we don't have a vapor "problem?"
==
==



  #9   Report Post  
CBHvac
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ventless Gas Fireplaces.


"JNJ" wrote in message
...
Ok, I give. The byproducts of burning natural gas include carbon
monoxide, PCBs, particulates, and so forth.


Back to chemistry class. Natural gas is mostly methane CH4 Burned
properly you get H2O and CO2 . The modern ones include CO detectors

that
shut it down if the CO gets going. Under normal operation it is not a
problem.


Although predominantly methane (typically 92%-95%), the actual chemical
composition of natural gas varies depending on its source and processing

and
includes several other items in small to trace amounts. When it burns the
byproducts are primarily water vapor and carbon dioxide but also a variety
of other things including carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides, particulate
matter (such as soot/creosote), and pipeline contaminants. Even if the
equipment is functioning as designed, these items are being burned along
with the methane.

Obviously, these are for the main part negligible -- they're just not a
primary factor and this is why natural gas is considered to be a "clean"
fossil fuel, if not the cleanest altogether. I'm not one of those types
that are down on NG by any stretch -- if we gotta use fossil fuel, I'd
really rather use that one among the alternatives.

It's good that most models include a CO detector but that's not the only
exhaust issue here. It's just difficult to believe that these units, even
when operating properly, do not contribute to air quality issues --


They can....it depends on the home.
Some people will swear by them, and swear they have a tight home.
Most have a tight home, but not near as tight as they think. Those are the
ones that have no problems with the units.

especially since they're run in cooler weather when houses are sealed up
fairly tight.


After sitting though 2 hours on this one subject yesterday as part of our
continuing ed for the state licence, I can assure you, a tight home is not a
sealed home...

(I'm aware they have oxygen detectors to ensure they do not
take too much.)


The limits on those are at 21%...and we need a min of 18% to live...its just
a bit freaking close IMO..

I suppose my real question is just what makes these any
different than a furnace or other NG appliance that it's ok to vent them
right into the room?


The amount of fuel used, the combustion process, and the amount of harmful
products generated in relation to the gas used.






  #10   Report Post  
JNJ
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ventless Gas Fireplaces.

After sitting though 2 hours on this one subject yesterday as part of our
continuing ed for the state licence, I can assure you, a tight home is not

a
sealed home...


I realize that no home is really THAT tight. They're certainly more
tightly sealed up during the winter months than others though. I know some
just run it as a "feature" and turn it off when they go to bed sort of
thing, but others put it on a thermostat and let it do its thing. My folks
have one and I'm assuming it's a decent unit as they dropped a pretty bundle
on it when they bought it. I can tell when it's on just by entering the
house -- I smell it just as well as the oven. I dunno -- just seems to me
that the things gotta contribute to air quality issues.

The limits on those are at 21%...and we need a min of 18% to live...its

just
a bit freaking close IMO..


This is true.

The amount of fuel used, the combustion process, and the amount of harmful
products generated in relation to the gas used.


This is interesting -- you say the combustion process is different. How so?

I'm guessing that the gist of your class was that conventional wisdom
dictates these things are no problem?

James




  #11   Report Post  
CBHvac
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ventless Gas Fireplaces.


"JNJ" wrote in message
...
After sitting though 2 hours on this one subject yesterday as part of

our
continuing ed for the state licence, I can assure you, a tight home is

not
a
sealed home...


I realize that no home is really THAT tight. They're certainly more
tightly sealed up during the winter months than others though. I know

some
just run it as a "feature" and turn it off when they go to bed sort of
thing, but others put it on a thermostat and let it do its thing. My

folks
have one and I'm assuming it's a decent unit as they dropped a pretty

bundle
on it when they bought it. I can tell when it's on just by entering the
house -- I smell it just as well as the oven. I dunno -- just seems to me
that the things gotta contribute to air quality issues.

The limits on those are at 21%...and we need a min of 18% to live...its

just
a bit freaking close IMO..


This is true.

The amount of fuel used, the combustion process, and the amount of

harmful
products generated in relation to the gas used.


This is interesting -- you say the combustion process is different. How

so?

Well..burning gas is burning gas, until you get to the part of the
by-products.
A furnace, as used in the other example, will produce much more in the way
of harmful contributions to the air, in the home, should the exhaust be
venting indoors, due to the sheer amount of fuel being used, and the way its
being burned.


I'm guessing that the gist of your class was that conventional wisdom
dictates these things are no problem?

James




  #12   Report Post  
CBHvac
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ventless Gas Fireplaces.

Whoops..hit send too soon...

"JNJ" wrote in message
...
After sitting though 2 hours on this one subject yesterday as part of

our
continuing ed for the state licence, I can assure you, a tight home is

not
a
sealed home...


I realize that no home is really THAT tight. They're certainly more
tightly sealed up during the winter months than others though. I know

some
just run it as a "feature" and turn it off when they go to bed sort of
thing, but others put it on a thermostat and let it do its thing. My

folks
have one and I'm assuming it's a decent unit as they dropped a pretty

bundle
on it when they bought it. I can tell when it's on just by entering the
house -- I smell it just as well as the oven. I dunno -- just seems to me
that the things gotta contribute to air quality issues.

The limits on those are at 21%...and we need a min of 18% to live...its

just
a bit freaking close IMO..


This is true.

The amount of fuel used, the combustion process, and the amount of

harmful
products generated in relation to the gas used.


This is interesting -- you say the combustion process is different. How

so?

I'm guessing that the gist of your class was that conventional wisdom
dictates these things are no problem?


Actually, they suggested that we shy from installs, unless the homeowner
understood that they can:

Kill, and in some cases, soot up your home in ways you never thought
possible...and that we follow code to a T, and make sure that we understood
all the loopholes that could create an unsafe condition.

Personally, I would much rather prefer a vented model.




James




  #13   Report Post  
JNJ
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ventless Gas Fireplaces.

Well..burning gas is burning gas, until you get to the part of the
by-products.
A furnace, as used in the other example, will produce much more in the way
of harmful contributions to the air, in the home, should the exhaust be
venting indoors, due to the sheer amount of fuel being used, and the way

its
being burned.


I'm going to guess that the furnace produces more because it burns more to
do its job -- correct? What's the differnece in HOW it is being burned?
Aren't they both pretty much using a tube with holes that is lit by a pilot?

Actually, they suggested that we shy from installs, unless the homeowner
understood that they can:

Kill, and in some cases, soot up your home in ways you never thought
possible...and that we follow code to a T, and make sure that we

understood
all the loopholes that could create an unsafe condition.

Personally, I would much rather prefer a vented model.


I'm very much of the same opinion.

James


  #14   Report Post  
Lawrence Wasserman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ventless Gas Fireplaces.

In article ,
TURTLE wrote:

...previous quote snipped...

This is Turtle.

The ventless models get away with no vent because the panel Ray type burns
at about 3,000 ºF . All the carbon is burnt up and you have no carbon to
make CO with. Now it can burn up all the O2 and be bad too , but they have
sencer on them to turn it off it this happens.

When gas or anything else burns at 3,000ºF there is nothing left to make
anything else out of the vent vapors.

TURTLE



Ha ha! That's a good one!

--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland


  #15   Report Post  
John Gilmer
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ventless Gas Fireplaces.


"JNJ" wrote in message
...
Ok, I give. The byproducts of burning natural gas include carbon

monoxide,
PCBs, particulates, and so forth.


Nope!

Since providing "excess" air to a ventless fireplace doesn't reduce the
efficiency, that's how they burn gas. The result is that the health
hazzard isn't CO but oxygen depletion. The units all have the pilot light
positioned so that if the O2 levels go doen, the thermpile gets cold and the
unit shuts down.


I have a digital CO detector very close to my ventless unit. It has never
gotten off ZERO because of the ventless burner. (It has responded to
cooking on my ELECTRIC stove.)




  #16   Report Post  
CBHvac
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ventless Gas Fireplaces.


"John Gilmer" wrote in message
...

"JNJ" wrote in message
...
Ok, I give. The byproducts of burning natural gas include carbon

monoxide,
PCBs, particulates, and so forth.


Nope!

Since providing "excess" air to a ventless fireplace doesn't reduce the
efficiency, that's how they burn gas. The result is that the health
hazzard isn't CO but oxygen depletion. The units all have the pilot light
positioned so that if the O2 levels go doen, the thermpile gets cold and

the
unit shuts down.


Actually, it simply shuts the unit down....wired in with the gas valve..


I have a digital CO detector very close to my ventless unit. It has

never
gotten off ZERO because of the ventless burner. (It has responded to
cooking on my ELECTRIC stove.)


Then its crap.
Most residential units will not get off zero till the actual ppm is near
50...a good Fluke, or UEI CO handheld will show you what the others wont.






  #17   Report Post  
JNJ
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ventless Gas Fireplaces.

Nope!

YEP! Do your research -- the gas piped into your home is not pure methane.
It is typically around 92% methane with the remaining 8% consisting of a
variety of other substances, including some contaminants depending on the
source, processing, and transport. This is a well known and documented
fact -- documented even by some utility companies right smack dab on their
web site.

The point is that the burning of gas within a closed space affects air
quality. How badly depends on a variety of factors such as placement, gas,
efficiency of the burning mechanism, and so forth. Whether the affectation
is minimal or significant enough for concern is open to debate.

Since providing "excess" air to a ventless fireplace doesn't reduce the
efficiency, that's how they burn gas. The result is that the health
hazzard isn't CO but oxygen depletion. The units all have the pilot light
positioned so that if the O2 levels go doen, the thermpile gets cold and

the
unit shuts down.


It would have to be a fairly well closed up room for the oxygen levels to
deplete. As we discussed elsewhere in this thread, these detectors have a
threshold that is awfully close to the minimum levels we require to survive.
Not 'xactly what *I* like to hear, but if it works for others....

I have a digital CO detector very close to my ventless unit. It has

never
gotten off ZERO because of the ventless burner. (It has responded to
cooking on my ELECTRIC stove.)


Hmmmmm....

James


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