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  #1   Report Post  
Steven
 
Posts: n/a
Default Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement


wrote in message
...
So I have three questions:

1) Realistically, is this anything to worry about? Or am I concerned over
nothing? Should I keep my nose out of this?


You shouldn't "worry" about it, but the problem should be remedied.



2) Would this violate any codes or building standards (in other words, is
this something a local government building inspector would take an

interest
in if they knew of the problem? This is in Michigan, if that makes any
difference).


Local code enforcers vary in thier interpretations, so i can speak for him,
but generally, basements must have a drainage system in place.



3) If there is a problem here, what would be the best approach to take

with
the contractor? Should my family member insist that a new layer of
concrete be poured that slopes toward the sump, or would that create other
problems? Would the excellent drainage of the soil indicate just leaving
well enough alone? If you are a contractor, would you categorize this sort
of defect as "serious" or "minor"?


Have a meeting with the contractor on site so the problem can be seen by
all. A topping of concrete can be applied to the floor to achieve adequate
drainage. Check with your local concrete supplier. They will have a
"topping" mix design, and the procedure for application. I would categorize
this defect serious, with a simple solution.


4) If additional concrete should be poured, is that something that the
homeowner would have to bear the expense of, or would that be considered a
serious enough flaw that the concrete subcontractor should be required to
fix it on his nickel?


What you describe is not within any tolerances for poured concrete,
therefore it would be considered performed with poor workmanship. The
expense would rest with the concrete finisher, but ultimately with your
builder.


Neither I nor the family member in question have ever done anything like
this before, so I guess what I'm wanting to know is whether this is a
significant problem, or something fairly normal? I have a feeling the
contractor is not going to think it's anything to be concerned about, and
if that is the case, is it worth making a fuss over? Time is of the

essence
here - if the situation is going to be rectified, it will be much harder

to
do so after another week or so.


As I said earlier, it is a significant problem with an easy fix. If he
feels that a sump pump that is placed in the highest point of the basement
is nothing to worry about, you need a new builder. He should have
contingencies in his pricing to cover mistakes such as this. If he balks,
ask him if his basement drains properly.




  #2   Report Post  
Brad
 
Posts: n/a
Default Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement

In article ,
said...
A member of my family is having a new home built. The basement has been
poured (it has poured walls) and they are waiting for the walls to fully
"set." Well, yesterday it rained, and what we observed was that the entire
basement floor appeared to be covered with a significant amount of water (a
piece of electric wire laying on the floor was completely submerged),
EXCEPT for the corner where the sump hole is. I then recalled that the
side of the basement where the sump is was the part that the concrete
finisher did last (it is the side by the egress window) and therefore, if
there was a small bit of extra concrete, that was likely where it wound up.

In any case, it appears we have a situation where as much as an inch of
water at the far end (give or take a little) would have to run UPHILL to
reach the sump. Now I should also mention that this basement is built on
pure sand (literally - there is a sand mine just a mile or so down the
road) and drainage is very good, so I don't really expect that there would
be too many situations where the basement might flood - but on the other
hand, if the unforeseen ever did happen, it would be much easier to deal
with the problem if the water naturally ran toward the sump. I should
probably also mention that this basement was constructed with extra
headroom, so pouring more concrete over the existing floor would be doable
(in terms of not losing space). And, the general contractor seems like an
honest person, but I'm not sure that he's aware of this problem yet.


If the floor got wet because you have no basement windows and the rain
came in that way I would not worry. If there are perforated pipes
correctly installed under the floor and/or a perimeter drain leading to
the pit then the pit will work (once you put a pump in it).

I used to always assume that they pitch the basement floor to the pit for
drainage, but I see them poured flat most of the time now.
  #3   Report Post  
Brad
 
Posts: n/a
Default Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement

In article ,
said...
A member of my family is having a new home built. The basement has been
poured (it has poured walls) and they are waiting for the walls to fully
"set." Well, yesterday it rained, and what we observed was that the entire
basement floor appeared to be covered with a significant amount of water (a
piece of electric wire laying on the floor was completely submerged),
EXCEPT for the corner where the sump hole is. I then recalled that the
side of the basement where the sump is was the part that the concrete
finisher did last (it is the side by the egress window) and therefore, if
there was a small bit of extra concrete, that was likely where it wound up.

In any case, it appears we have a situation where as much as an inch of
water at the far end (give or take a little) would have to run UPHILL to
reach the sump. Now I should also mention that this basement is built on
pure sand (literally - there is a sand mine just a mile or so down the
road) and drainage is very good, so I don't really expect that there would
be too many situations where the basement might flood - but on the other
hand, if the unforeseen ever did happen, it would be much easier to deal
with the problem if the water naturally ran toward the sump. I should
probably also mention that this basement was constructed with extra
headroom, so pouring more concrete over the existing floor would be doable
(in terms of not losing space). And, the general contractor seems like an
honest person, but I'm not sure that he's aware of this problem yet.


If the floor got wet because you have no basement windows and the rain
came in that way I would not worry. If there are perforated pipes
correctly installed under the floor and/or a perimeter drain leading to
the pit then the pit will work (once you put a pump in it).

I used to always assume that they pitch the basement floor to the pit for
drainage, but I see them poured flat most of the time now.
  #4   Report Post  
james w lazenby
 
Posts: n/a
Default Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement


wrote in message
...
A member of my family is having a new home built. The

basement has been
poured (it has poured walls) and they are waiting for the

walls to fully
"set." Well, yesterday it rained, and what we observed was

that the entire
basement floor appeared to be covered with a significant

amount of water (a
piece of electric wire laying on the floor was completely

submerged),
EXCEPT for the corner where the sump hole is. I then

recalled that the
side of the basement where the sump is was the part that

the concrete
finisher did last (it is the side by the egress window)

and therefore, if
there was a small bit of extra concrete, that was likely

where it wound up.

In any case, it appears we have a situation where as much

as an inch of
water at the far end (give or take a little) would have to

run UPHILL to
reach the sump. Now I should also mention that this

basement is built on
pure sand (literally - there is a sand mine just a mile or

so down the
road) and drainage is very good, so I don't really expect

that there would
be too many situations where the basement might flood -

but on the other
hand, if the unforeseen ever did happen, it would be much

easier to deal
with the problem if the water naturally ran toward the

sump. I should
probably also mention that this basement was constructed

with extra
headroom, so pouring more concrete over the existing floor

would be doable
(in terms of not losing space). And, the general

contractor seems like an
honest person, but I'm not sure that he's aware of this

problem yet.

So I have three questions:

1) Realistically, is this anything to worry about?

You have three questions right here, nobody.
This one does not warrant "worry." Concern and attention,
yes.

Or am I concerned over
nothing?

See above and below.

Should I keep my nose out of this?
That's up to you. Are you your brother's keeper? If it is
your concern, nose on in. If it is not your concern, you
can share what advice you choose with your family member.

2) Would this violate any codes or building standards (in

other words, is
this something a local government building inspector would

take an interest
in if they knew of the problem? This is in Michigan, if

that makes any
difference).

Perhaps codes, certainly building standards . . . especially
the one known as "commonly prevailing in the market."

3) If there is a problem here, what would be the best

approach to take with
the contractor?

Now with four questions! I wish I could pay my bills with
your math.
First, bring it to the builder's or general contractor's
attention in an informative, not accusitorial, way.

Should my family member insist that a new layer of
concrete be poured that slopes toward the sump, or would

that create other
problems?

You slipped another question in here. No and yes,
respecitvely.

Would the excellent drainage of the soil indicate just

leaving
well enough alone?

No.

If you are a contractor, would you categorize this sort
of defect as "serious" or "minor"?

I would categorize it is a defect without adding an
inflamatory adjective. (A pretty routine defect, sorry to
say, and very likely created just as you surmised, as all
the grading indicators would have been removed or
obliterated by the time the finisher reached that corner.)
As a defect, I would correct it to reasonable industry
standards.

4) If additional concrete should be poured, is that

something that the
homeowner would have to bear the expense of, or would that

be considered a
serious enough flaw that the concrete subcontractor should

be required to
fix it on his nickel?

No and yes, respectively.

Neither I nor the family member in question have ever done

anything like
this before, so I guess what I'm wanting to know is

whether this is a
significant problem,

It is not a problem . . . only a defect and a minor
challenge.

or something fairly normal?

I wouldn't say normal, but I wouldn't say abnormal, either.
You know what they say "happens." Well, it does, and you
have to wipe.

I have a feeling the
contractor is not going to think it's anything to be

concerned about, and
if that is the case, is it worth making a fuss over?

No. I have a feeling, also, the contractor is not going to
think it is anything to be concerned about, as he knows he
will take care of and correct the defect without your
concern.

Time is of the essence
here -

You could have left this out. Time is always of the
essence.

if the situation is going to be rectified, it will be much

harder to
do so after another week or so.

You say so. Why? The quicker the better, I'd say as a
general rule, but you say much harder. Let the contractor
set his schedule. He has far more scheduling considerations
than does a new home buyer (who has plenty without worry
over a detail).

My advice in one word (your math):
Don't sweat it. Be thankful if that is the only "defect"
you'll discover or, at least, the worst. (But, somehow, I
expect we will hear from you again.) Have your relative
speak to the builder or contractor. That is your relative's
responsibility (first) on any question or concern.

I have one more word for your relative:
Relax. Enjoy the building of your new home. It is
interesting. Be a partner with the contractor. He is not
your enemy. He is, right now, more proud of what he is
doing than you are. He wants you to be more proud than he
once you have taken posession. I have seen many, many new
homeowners worry themselves sick before moving in . . . and
for a year thereafter, looking for anything than they might
have missed or could go wrong. They have missed, forever,
one of the great experiences of life. Count the blessings.
They are many in a new home. Defects, like life, are sure
to be there. A house, a home, like a life ain't perfect but
it is a joy . . . if enjoyed.

Jim



  #5   Report Post  
james w lazenby
 
Posts: n/a
Default Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement


wrote in message
...
A member of my family is having a new home built. The

basement has been
poured (it has poured walls) and they are waiting for the

walls to fully
"set." Well, yesterday it rained, and what we observed was

that the entire
basement floor appeared to be covered with a significant

amount of water (a
piece of electric wire laying on the floor was completely

submerged),
EXCEPT for the corner where the sump hole is. I then

recalled that the
side of the basement where the sump is was the part that

the concrete
finisher did last (it is the side by the egress window)

and therefore, if
there was a small bit of extra concrete, that was likely

where it wound up.

In any case, it appears we have a situation where as much

as an inch of
water at the far end (give or take a little) would have to

run UPHILL to
reach the sump. Now I should also mention that this

basement is built on
pure sand (literally - there is a sand mine just a mile or

so down the
road) and drainage is very good, so I don't really expect

that there would
be too many situations where the basement might flood -

but on the other
hand, if the unforeseen ever did happen, it would be much

easier to deal
with the problem if the water naturally ran toward the

sump. I should
probably also mention that this basement was constructed

with extra
headroom, so pouring more concrete over the existing floor

would be doable
(in terms of not losing space). And, the general

contractor seems like an
honest person, but I'm not sure that he's aware of this

problem yet.

So I have three questions:

1) Realistically, is this anything to worry about?

You have three questions right here, nobody.
This one does not warrant "worry." Concern and attention,
yes.

Or am I concerned over
nothing?

See above and below.

Should I keep my nose out of this?
That's up to you. Are you your brother's keeper? If it is
your concern, nose on in. If it is not your concern, you
can share what advice you choose with your family member.

2) Would this violate any codes or building standards (in

other words, is
this something a local government building inspector would

take an interest
in if they knew of the problem? This is in Michigan, if

that makes any
difference).

Perhaps codes, certainly building standards . . . especially
the one known as "commonly prevailing in the market."

3) If there is a problem here, what would be the best

approach to take with
the contractor?

Now with four questions! I wish I could pay my bills with
your math.
First, bring it to the builder's or general contractor's
attention in an informative, not accusitorial, way.

Should my family member insist that a new layer of
concrete be poured that slopes toward the sump, or would

that create other
problems?

You slipped another question in here. No and yes,
respecitvely.

Would the excellent drainage of the soil indicate just

leaving
well enough alone?

No.

If you are a contractor, would you categorize this sort
of defect as "serious" or "minor"?

I would categorize it is a defect without adding an
inflamatory adjective. (A pretty routine defect, sorry to
say, and very likely created just as you surmised, as all
the grading indicators would have been removed or
obliterated by the time the finisher reached that corner.)
As a defect, I would correct it to reasonable industry
standards.

4) If additional concrete should be poured, is that

something that the
homeowner would have to bear the expense of, or would that

be considered a
serious enough flaw that the concrete subcontractor should

be required to
fix it on his nickel?

No and yes, respectively.

Neither I nor the family member in question have ever done

anything like
this before, so I guess what I'm wanting to know is

whether this is a
significant problem,

It is not a problem . . . only a defect and a minor
challenge.

or something fairly normal?

I wouldn't say normal, but I wouldn't say abnormal, either.
You know what they say "happens." Well, it does, and you
have to wipe.

I have a feeling the
contractor is not going to think it's anything to be

concerned about, and
if that is the case, is it worth making a fuss over?

No. I have a feeling, also, the contractor is not going to
think it is anything to be concerned about, as he knows he
will take care of and correct the defect without your
concern.

Time is of the essence
here -

You could have left this out. Time is always of the
essence.

if the situation is going to be rectified, it will be much

harder to
do so after another week or so.

You say so. Why? The quicker the better, I'd say as a
general rule, but you say much harder. Let the contractor
set his schedule. He has far more scheduling considerations
than does a new home buyer (who has plenty without worry
over a detail).

My advice in one word (your math):
Don't sweat it. Be thankful if that is the only "defect"
you'll discover or, at least, the worst. (But, somehow, I
expect we will hear from you again.) Have your relative
speak to the builder or contractor. That is your relative's
responsibility (first) on any question or concern.

I have one more word for your relative:
Relax. Enjoy the building of your new home. It is
interesting. Be a partner with the contractor. He is not
your enemy. He is, right now, more proud of what he is
doing than you are. He wants you to be more proud than he
once you have taken posession. I have seen many, many new
homeowners worry themselves sick before moving in . . . and
for a year thereafter, looking for anything than they might
have missed or could go wrong. They have missed, forever,
one of the great experiences of life. Count the blessings.
They are many in a new home. Defects, like life, are sure
to be there. A house, a home, like a life ain't perfect but
it is a joy . . . if enjoyed.

Jim





  #6   Report Post  
Steven
 
Posts: n/a
Default Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement


I have one more word for your relative:
Relax. Enjoy the building of your new home. It is
interesting. Be a partner with the contractor. He is not
your enemy. He is, right now, more proud of what he is
doing than you are. He wants you to be more proud than he
once you have taken posession. I have seen many, many new
homeowners worry themselves sick before moving in . . . and
for a year thereafter, looking for anything than they might
have missed or could go wrong. They have missed, forever,
one of the great experiences of life. Count the blessings.
They are many in a new home. Defects, like life, are sure
to be there. A house, a home, like a life ain't perfect but
it is a joy . . . if enjoyed.

Jim


That is on the verge of being true poetry. I've never heard it said better.


  #7   Report Post  
Steven
 
Posts: n/a
Default Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement


I have one more word for your relative:
Relax. Enjoy the building of your new home. It is
interesting. Be a partner with the contractor. He is not
your enemy. He is, right now, more proud of what he is
doing than you are. He wants you to be more proud than he
once you have taken posession. I have seen many, many new
homeowners worry themselves sick before moving in . . . and
for a year thereafter, looking for anything than they might
have missed or could go wrong. They have missed, forever,
one of the great experiences of life. Count the blessings.
They are many in a new home. Defects, like life, are sure
to be there. A house, a home, like a life ain't perfect but
it is a joy . . . if enjoyed.

Jim


That is on the verge of being true poetry. I've never heard it said better.


  #8   Report Post  
v
 
Posts: n/a
Default Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:26:00 -0400, someone wrote:

A sump and a drain are two different things. A sump pit is NOT
typically to collect water that is already on the basement floor, it
is fed by pipes under the slab to keep water from rising up. Why does
this house with excellent drainage need a sump pit?

If there are floor drains, yes the floor has to be pitched to them,
but most people do NOT want sloping floors.

If there is no spec for the job that the floor has to pitch to drain,
there is probably no obligation on the part of the contractor to do
anything. There is a customary tolerance of un-evenness, a
residential basement will NOT be finished to a commercial flatwork
standard unless that is specified (and paid for).

The owner should tell the contractor his concerns, see if something
can be worked out, but it does NOT appear to be a "defect" that the
contractor has to fix.

-v.
  #9   Report Post  
v
 
Posts: n/a
Default Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:26:00 -0400, someone wrote:

A sump and a drain are two different things. A sump pit is NOT
typically to collect water that is already on the basement floor, it
is fed by pipes under the slab to keep water from rising up. Why does
this house with excellent drainage need a sump pit?

If there are floor drains, yes the floor has to be pitched to them,
but most people do NOT want sloping floors.

If there is no spec for the job that the floor has to pitch to drain,
there is probably no obligation on the part of the contractor to do
anything. There is a customary tolerance of un-evenness, a
residential basement will NOT be finished to a commercial flatwork
standard unless that is specified (and paid for).

The owner should tell the contractor his concerns, see if something
can be worked out, but it does NOT appear to be a "defect" that the
contractor has to fix.

-v.
  #10   Report Post  
Doug Swetland
 
Posts: n/a
Default Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement

wrote:

A member of my family is having a new home built. The basement has been
poured (it has poured walls) and they are waiting for the walls to fully
"set." Well, yesterday it rained, and what we observed was that the entire
basement floor appeared to be covered with a significant amount of water (a
piece of electric wire laying on the floor was completely submerged),
EXCEPT for the corner where the sump hole is. I then recalled that the
side of the basement where the sump is was the part that the concrete
finisher did last (it is the side by the egress window) and therefore, if
there was a small bit of extra concrete, that was likely where it wound up.

In any case, it appears we have a situation where as much as an inch of
water at the far end (give or take a little) would have to run UPHILL to
reach the sump. Now I should also mention that this basement is built on
pure sand (literally - there is a sand mine just a mile or so down the
road) and drainage is very good, so I don't really expect that there would
be too many situations where the basement might flood - but on the other
hand, if the unforeseen ever did happen, it would be much easier to deal
with the problem if the water naturally ran toward the sump. I should
probably also mention that this basement was constructed with extra
headroom, so pouring more concrete over the existing floor would be doable
(in terms of not losing space). And, the general contractor seems like an
honest person, but I'm not sure that he's aware of this problem yet.

So I have three questions:

1) Realistically, is this anything to worry about? Or am I concerned over
nothing? Should I keep my nose out of this?

2) Would this violate any codes or building standards (in other words, is
this something a local government building inspector would take an interest
in if they knew of the problem? This is in Michigan, if that makes any
difference).

3) If there is a problem here, what would be the best approach to take with
the contractor? Should my family member insist that a new layer of
concrete be poured that slopes toward the sump, or would that create other
problems? Would the excellent drainage of the soil indicate just leaving
well enough alone? If you are a contractor, would you categorize this sort
of defect as "serious" or "minor"?

4) If additional concrete should be poured, is that something that the
homeowner would have to bear the expense of, or would that be considered a
serious enough flaw that the concrete subcontractor should be required to
fix it on his nickel?

Neither I nor the family member in question have ever done anything like
this before, so I guess what I'm wanting to know is whether this is a
significant problem, or something fairly normal? I have a feeling the
contractor is not going to think it's anything to be concerned about, and
if that is the case, is it worth making a fuss over? Time is of the essence
here - if the situation is going to be rectified, it will be much harder to
do so after another week or so.

Please Note: The email address in the message header will NOT work. If
you want to reply privately, please use "usenet092303", followed by the
"at" symbol, followed by "workbench.net" (no quotation marks, of course).
That e-mail address will go away after about a week (by then any advice
would be too late to be useful anyway), so don't use it after October 1,
2003.


I don't think you have a problem.

The purpose of a sump system is to remove rising ground water before it
gets into the basement. It should have drain tiles next to the
foundation that direct the water into the sump pit and then the pump
will take it from there. The level of the floor should have no affect
on this capability.

If water gets into the basement you've got other problems that need to
be fixed (landscaping, pipes, etc). It is reasonable to want a floor to
slope to the sump pit, but that should have been specified in the
building contract. With a heavy sand base I suspect the pump will
rarely be used as the drainage should be excellent.

Make sure the inspector and the builder know about the situation and
find out what the codes specifiy. I suspect your family member will be
very happy with a dry basement and plenty of headroom.

I've got a full basement in a heavy clay base, no foundation drain tiles
and am at the bottom of a hill. I put a sump pit in the lowest corner
as a stop gap measure. I'd rather have your problem. (The pit hasn't
been used in a couple years since I installed various drainage systems
in the yard.)

dss



  #11   Report Post  
Doug Swetland
 
Posts: n/a
Default Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement

wrote:

A member of my family is having a new home built. The basement has been
poured (it has poured walls) and they are waiting for the walls to fully
"set." Well, yesterday it rained, and what we observed was that the entire
basement floor appeared to be covered with a significant amount of water (a
piece of electric wire laying on the floor was completely submerged),
EXCEPT for the corner where the sump hole is. I then recalled that the
side of the basement where the sump is was the part that the concrete
finisher did last (it is the side by the egress window) and therefore, if
there was a small bit of extra concrete, that was likely where it wound up.

In any case, it appears we have a situation where as much as an inch of
water at the far end (give or take a little) would have to run UPHILL to
reach the sump. Now I should also mention that this basement is built on
pure sand (literally - there is a sand mine just a mile or so down the
road) and drainage is very good, so I don't really expect that there would
be too many situations where the basement might flood - but on the other
hand, if the unforeseen ever did happen, it would be much easier to deal
with the problem if the water naturally ran toward the sump. I should
probably also mention that this basement was constructed with extra
headroom, so pouring more concrete over the existing floor would be doable
(in terms of not losing space). And, the general contractor seems like an
honest person, but I'm not sure that he's aware of this problem yet.

So I have three questions:

1) Realistically, is this anything to worry about? Or am I concerned over
nothing? Should I keep my nose out of this?

2) Would this violate any codes or building standards (in other words, is
this something a local government building inspector would take an interest
in if they knew of the problem? This is in Michigan, if that makes any
difference).

3) If there is a problem here, what would be the best approach to take with
the contractor? Should my family member insist that a new layer of
concrete be poured that slopes toward the sump, or would that create other
problems? Would the excellent drainage of the soil indicate just leaving
well enough alone? If you are a contractor, would you categorize this sort
of defect as "serious" or "minor"?

4) If additional concrete should be poured, is that something that the
homeowner would have to bear the expense of, or would that be considered a
serious enough flaw that the concrete subcontractor should be required to
fix it on his nickel?

Neither I nor the family member in question have ever done anything like
this before, so I guess what I'm wanting to know is whether this is a
significant problem, or something fairly normal? I have a feeling the
contractor is not going to think it's anything to be concerned about, and
if that is the case, is it worth making a fuss over? Time is of the essence
here - if the situation is going to be rectified, it will be much harder to
do so after another week or so.

Please Note: The email address in the message header will NOT work. If
you want to reply privately, please use "usenet092303", followed by the
"at" symbol, followed by "workbench.net" (no quotation marks, of course).
That e-mail address will go away after about a week (by then any advice
would be too late to be useful anyway), so don't use it after October 1,
2003.


I don't think you have a problem.

The purpose of a sump system is to remove rising ground water before it
gets into the basement. It should have drain tiles next to the
foundation that direct the water into the sump pit and then the pump
will take it from there. The level of the floor should have no affect
on this capability.

If water gets into the basement you've got other problems that need to
be fixed (landscaping, pipes, etc). It is reasonable to want a floor to
slope to the sump pit, but that should have been specified in the
building contract. With a heavy sand base I suspect the pump will
rarely be used as the drainage should be excellent.

Make sure the inspector and the builder know about the situation and
find out what the codes specifiy. I suspect your family member will be
very happy with a dry basement and plenty of headroom.

I've got a full basement in a heavy clay base, no foundation drain tiles
and am at the bottom of a hill. I put a sump pit in the lowest corner
as a stop gap measure. I'd rather have your problem. (The pit hasn't
been used in a couple years since I installed various drainage systems
in the yard.)

dss

  #12   Report Post  
Heathcliff Bambino
 
Posts: n/a
Default Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement

Brad wrote in message news:MPG.19da17cfcb2cc13598b708@news...
In article ,
said...
A member of my family is having a new home built. The basement has been
poured (it has poured walls) and they are waiting for the walls to fully
"set." Well, yesterday it rained, and what we observed was that the entire
basement floor appeared to be covered with a significant amount of water (a
piece of electric wire laying on the floor was completely submerged),
EXCEPT for the corner where the sump hole is. I then recalled that the
side of the basement where the sump is was the part that the concrete
finisher did last (it is the side by the egress window) and therefore, if
there was a small bit of extra concrete, that was likely where it wound up.


From your description it sounds like the basement was open to the sky
when it rained, right? No house on top of it yet? In that case, not
to worry. The sump is not really there to drain the basement from the
inside. If correctly installed, the way it works is this: drainpipes
are installed circling the perimeter of the foundation on the outside,
and are connected to the sump pit. When it rains water seeps through
the ground, hits these drainpipes, goes to the sump to get pumped out.
In other words it intercepts the water before it gets to the
foundation itself. The ground next to and below the basement stays
dry. There may also be a floor drain in the basement (and/or in the
stairwell, if there is an outside entrance to the basement) that
drains to the sump. The only circumstance where the water would drain
from the basement floor directly into the sump pit would be if there
is a pipe leak, washing machine overflow or some such. Again a floor
drain usually handles that.
  #13   Report Post  
Heathcliff Bambino
 
Posts: n/a
Default Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement

Brad wrote in message news:MPG.19da17cfcb2cc13598b708@news...
In article ,
said...
A member of my family is having a new home built. The basement has been
poured (it has poured walls) and they are waiting for the walls to fully
"set." Well, yesterday it rained, and what we observed was that the entire
basement floor appeared to be covered with a significant amount of water (a
piece of electric wire laying on the floor was completely submerged),
EXCEPT for the corner where the sump hole is. I then recalled that the
side of the basement where the sump is was the part that the concrete
finisher did last (it is the side by the egress window) and therefore, if
there was a small bit of extra concrete, that was likely where it wound up.


From your description it sounds like the basement was open to the sky
when it rained, right? No house on top of it yet? In that case, not
to worry. The sump is not really there to drain the basement from the
inside. If correctly installed, the way it works is this: drainpipes
are installed circling the perimeter of the foundation on the outside,
and are connected to the sump pit. When it rains water seeps through
the ground, hits these drainpipes, goes to the sump to get pumped out.
In other words it intercepts the water before it gets to the
foundation itself. The ground next to and below the basement stays
dry. There may also be a floor drain in the basement (and/or in the
stairwell, if there is an outside entrance to the basement) that
drains to the sump. The only circumstance where the water would drain
from the basement floor directly into the sump pit would be if there
is a pipe leak, washing machine overflow or some such. Again a floor
drain usually handles that.
  #14   Report Post  
Steven
 
Posts: n/a
Default Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement

In a perfect world, the sump would never pump water from anywhere but the
outside drainage system and the basement would always be cozy and dry. In
the real world, we have fast snow melts, heavy rains, etc. that tend to end
up at the lowest point in the area (i.e. a basement), and the sump is real
handy to get rid of the extra water. In my years of building, I have yet
to see a basement that is perfectly dry after a few years. The sump is a
good backup plan for basement flooding, and if it is at the highest point,
it sucks (...air that is, rather than H20). Think about the landscapers
that build up beds around the house and create a dam for drainage. It
happens daily.


"Doug Swetland" wrote in message
...
wrote:

A member of my family is having a new home built. The basement has been
poured (it has poured walls) and they are waiting for the walls to fully
"set." Well, yesterday it rained, and what we observed was that the

entire
basement floor appeared to be covered with a significant amount of water

(a
piece of electric wire laying on the floor was completely submerged),
EXCEPT for the corner where the sump hole is. I then recalled that the
side of the basement where the sump is was the part that the concrete
finisher did last (it is the side by the egress window) and therefore,

if
there was a small bit of extra concrete, that was likely where it wound

up.

In any case, it appears we have a situation where as much as an inch of
water at the far end (give or take a little) would have to run UPHILL to
reach the sump. Now I should also mention that this basement is built on
pure sand (literally - there is a sand mine just a mile or so down the
road) and drainage is very good, so I don't really expect that there

would
be too many situations where the basement might flood - but on the other
hand, if the unforeseen ever did happen, it would be much easier to deal
with the problem if the water naturally ran toward the sump. I should
probably also mention that this basement was constructed with extra
headroom, so pouring more concrete over the existing floor would be

doable
(in terms of not losing space). And, the general contractor seems like

an
honest person, but I'm not sure that he's aware of this problem yet.

So I have three questions:

1) Realistically, is this anything to worry about? Or am I concerned

over
nothing? Should I keep my nose out of this?

2) Would this violate any codes or building standards (in other words,

is
this something a local government building inspector would take an

interest
in if they knew of the problem? This is in Michigan, if that makes any
difference).

3) If there is a problem here, what would be the best approach to take

with
the contractor? Should my family member insist that a new layer of
concrete be poured that slopes toward the sump, or would that create

other
problems? Would the excellent drainage of the soil indicate just

leaving
well enough alone? If you are a contractor, would you categorize this

sort
of defect as "serious" or "minor"?

4) If additional concrete should be poured, is that something that the
homeowner would have to bear the expense of, or would that be considered

a
serious enough flaw that the concrete subcontractor should be required

to
fix it on his nickel?

Neither I nor the family member in question have ever done anything like
this before, so I guess what I'm wanting to know is whether this is a
significant problem, or something fairly normal? I have a feeling the
contractor is not going to think it's anything to be concerned about,

and
if that is the case, is it worth making a fuss over? Time is of the

essence
here - if the situation is going to be rectified, it will be much harder

to
do so after another week or so.

Please Note: The email address in the message header will NOT work. If
you want to reply privately, please use "usenet092303", followed by the
"at" symbol, followed by "workbench.net" (no quotation marks, of

course).
That e-mail address will go away after about a week (by then any advice
would be too late to be useful anyway), so don't use it after October 1,
2003.


I don't think you have a problem.

The purpose of a sump system is to remove rising ground water before it
gets into the basement. It should have drain tiles next to the
foundation that direct the water into the sump pit and then the pump
will take it from there. The level of the floor should have no affect
on this capability.

If water gets into the basement you've got other problems that need to
be fixed (landscaping, pipes, etc). It is reasonable to want a floor to
slope to the sump pit, but that should have been specified in the
building contract. With a heavy sand base I suspect the pump will
rarely be used as the drainage should be excellent.

Make sure the inspector and the builder know about the situation and
find out what the codes specifiy. I suspect your family member will be
very happy with a dry basement and plenty of headroom.

I've got a full basement in a heavy clay base, no foundation drain tiles
and am at the bottom of a hill. I put a sump pit in the lowest corner
as a stop gap measure. I'd rather have your problem. (The pit hasn't
been used in a couple years since I installed various drainage systems
in the yard.)

dss



  #15   Report Post  
Steven
 
Posts: n/a
Default Advice needed on new basement - sump hole higher than rest of basement

In a perfect world, the sump would never pump water from anywhere but the
outside drainage system and the basement would always be cozy and dry. In
the real world, we have fast snow melts, heavy rains, etc. that tend to end
up at the lowest point in the area (i.e. a basement), and the sump is real
handy to get rid of the extra water. In my years of building, I have yet
to see a basement that is perfectly dry after a few years. The sump is a
good backup plan for basement flooding, and if it is at the highest point,
it sucks (...air that is, rather than H20). Think about the landscapers
that build up beds around the house and create a dam for drainage. It
happens daily.


"Doug Swetland" wrote in message
...
wrote:

A member of my family is having a new home built. The basement has been
poured (it has poured walls) and they are waiting for the walls to fully
"set." Well, yesterday it rained, and what we observed was that the

entire
basement floor appeared to be covered with a significant amount of water

(a
piece of electric wire laying on the floor was completely submerged),
EXCEPT for the corner where the sump hole is. I then recalled that the
side of the basement where the sump is was the part that the concrete
finisher did last (it is the side by the egress window) and therefore,

if
there was a small bit of extra concrete, that was likely where it wound

up.

In any case, it appears we have a situation where as much as an inch of
water at the far end (give or take a little) would have to run UPHILL to
reach the sump. Now I should also mention that this basement is built on
pure sand (literally - there is a sand mine just a mile or so down the
road) and drainage is very good, so I don't really expect that there

would
be too many situations where the basement might flood - but on the other
hand, if the unforeseen ever did happen, it would be much easier to deal
with the problem if the water naturally ran toward the sump. I should
probably also mention that this basement was constructed with extra
headroom, so pouring more concrete over the existing floor would be

doable
(in terms of not losing space). And, the general contractor seems like

an
honest person, but I'm not sure that he's aware of this problem yet.

So I have three questions:

1) Realistically, is this anything to worry about? Or am I concerned

over
nothing? Should I keep my nose out of this?

2) Would this violate any codes or building standards (in other words,

is
this something a local government building inspector would take an

interest
in if they knew of the problem? This is in Michigan, if that makes any
difference).

3) If there is a problem here, what would be the best approach to take

with
the contractor? Should my family member insist that a new layer of
concrete be poured that slopes toward the sump, or would that create

other
problems? Would the excellent drainage of the soil indicate just

leaving
well enough alone? If you are a contractor, would you categorize this

sort
of defect as "serious" or "minor"?

4) If additional concrete should be poured, is that something that the
homeowner would have to bear the expense of, or would that be considered

a
serious enough flaw that the concrete subcontractor should be required

to
fix it on his nickel?

Neither I nor the family member in question have ever done anything like
this before, so I guess what I'm wanting to know is whether this is a
significant problem, or something fairly normal? I have a feeling the
contractor is not going to think it's anything to be concerned about,

and
if that is the case, is it worth making a fuss over? Time is of the

essence
here - if the situation is going to be rectified, it will be much harder

to
do so after another week or so.

Please Note: The email address in the message header will NOT work. If
you want to reply privately, please use "usenet092303", followed by the
"at" symbol, followed by "workbench.net" (no quotation marks, of

course).
That e-mail address will go away after about a week (by then any advice
would be too late to be useful anyway), so don't use it after October 1,
2003.


I don't think you have a problem.

The purpose of a sump system is to remove rising ground water before it
gets into the basement. It should have drain tiles next to the
foundation that direct the water into the sump pit and then the pump
will take it from there. The level of the floor should have no affect
on this capability.

If water gets into the basement you've got other problems that need to
be fixed (landscaping, pipes, etc). It is reasonable to want a floor to
slope to the sump pit, but that should have been specified in the
building contract. With a heavy sand base I suspect the pump will
rarely be used as the drainage should be excellent.

Make sure the inspector and the builder know about the situation and
find out what the codes specifiy. I suspect your family member will be
very happy with a dry basement and plenty of headroom.

I've got a full basement in a heavy clay base, no foundation drain tiles
and am at the bottom of a hill. I put a sump pit in the lowest corner
as a stop gap measure. I'd rather have your problem. (The pit hasn't
been used in a couple years since I installed various drainage systems
in the yard.)

dss



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