One of the biggest remodel jobs that many of us face is the kitchen
remodel. I am paying more for new kitchen cabinets than my two cars
COMBINED!!!

I chose to go the Home Depot / Lowes route for the cabinets. In part
because I went to a few kitchen design places and their rates were
extraordinarily high. Perhaps I could have shopped around more.

One of my requirements that I told all the kitchen designers that I
worked with was that I wanted all plywood construction. The particle
board cabinets that I've seen may look ok when installed, but start
looking quite ragged and ugly very soon.

So, we sat down and put together the first design..... Except that it
was all plywood EXCEPT for the shelves. The designer tried to convince
me that the "furniture board" type particle board was better than
plywood. The argument sounded good except that every particle board
shelf that I could find which was over 5 years old was warped, or ratty
looking.

So, I returned and we redesigned the kitchen in both KraftMaid and
Thomasville who were supposed to have true "all plywood construction".
Thomasville described their shelves as "Choice of plywood or
furnitureboard shelves, laminated to match the cabinet interior"

I decided that I liked the Thomasville sink base better so I chose the
Deluxe "All Plywood" Thomasville construction.

Well, the cabinets arrived Friday. The finish was mediocre. But on
closer inspection, I noticed that the interior finish just seemed
plain strange. So I looked at it further. The interior, top, and bottom
of the cabinets were finished with a vinyl imitation wood.

So, I headed back to Home Depot where I was told that the vinyl imitation
wood was better than varnished wood for the interior!!! The designer
said that it was easier to clean. I must admit that I didn't believe
that argument.

I still can't understand how the "Top of the Line" Home Depot cabinet in
the "Deluxe Construction" has such poor quality construction. Anyway,
the whole pile, $5000 worth of cabinets was taken back to Home Depot. I
just ate the $125 delivery fee and 15% restocking fee (of course, I kept
the "free" sink base that caused the whole problem).

I am not happy about another month delay in my project.... But, after
investing thousands of dollars, and many, many hours on the remodel job,
I am not going to accept the junk that Home Depot is trying to pawn off.

The KraftMaid line did have the all plywood construction, and it is
"finished" inside and out. And, it is cheaper. I am definitely looking
elsewhere for my replacement cabinets, and will not consider Home Depot
for major appliances either.

The moral to the story.... MAKE SURE YOU ASK HOW THE CABINETS WILL BE
FINISHED, INSIDE AND OUT. PLYWOOD DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY HAVE ACTUALLY
MADE FINISHED WOOD.

Give me a break. I know that the world is encouraging economy and mass
production. But, don't ignore the quality and workmanship of the final
product.

----- CK -----

Clifford Keele writes:

Well, the cabinets arrived Friday. The finish was mediocre. But on
closer inspection, I noticed that the interior finish just seemed
plain strange. So I looked at it further. The interior, top, and
bottom of the cabinets were finished with a vinyl imitation wood.

Specifying "laminated", unfortunately, doesn't specify what it is laminated
*with*.

In your case, apparently it just meant paper-thin vinyl plastic. Maybe you
thought you would be getting Formica-style "laminate".

I sympathize with your plight, but the way to avoid it is to specify,
specify, specify. You can only demand what you specify, and any holes in
the specifications are almost always interpreted against the buyer's
interests.

Clifford Keele wrote in
t:

snip

The KraftMaid line did have the all plywood construction, and it is
"finished" inside and out. And, it is cheaper. I am definitely
looking elsewhere for my replacement cabinets, and will not consider
Home Depot for major appliances either.

snip

Do you have an Ikea near you? We are seriously considering them for our
kitchen. They seem to have very nice, relatively expensive cabinets and
counters. My mother-in-law got some from Ikea and has been very happy. They
also clearly specify what they are made of - solid wood with birch veneer,
MDF with Pine veneer, etc.

Just a thought to try.

Ryan

I would expect to spend $10,000 for all wood solid cherry cabinets.
Most furniture has a carcass constructed on man-made composite boards.
Particle board or flake board is weak to use for shelving, but solid
or ply is much better. Kitchen cabinets are made cheap as they are
typically ripped out and replaced after 10 or 20 years.

Clifford Keele wrote:
One of my requirements that I told all the kitchen designers that I
worked with was that I wanted all plywood construction. The
particle board cabinets that I've seen may look ok when installed,
but start looking quite ragged and ugly very soon.

So, we sat down and put together the first design..... Except
that it was all plywood EXCEPT for the shelves. The designer
tried to convince me that the "furniture board" type particle
board was better than plywood. The argument sounded good except
that every particle board shelf that I could find which was over 5
years old was warped, or ratty looking.

I build my own cabinets and my material of choice for cases and
shelves is melamine covered particle board (hardwood face frames and
doors). Why? Well, for one thing, the material is much less
expensive; but, primarily, it provides a prefinished interior surface
(the only one seen) that is durable, easy to clean and which never
needs refinishing.

True, ply is stronger. But if a melamine case is properly constructed
(tongues glued and screwed into dados), it is way more than adequate
and will stay together better than a ply case that has been (usually)
merely butt joined with staples. Additionally, I have seen many
expensive ply cases/shelves that had raw, uncapped edges. Yuch!

Whether or not a shelf will sag depends on the load and span. Both
those factors are small in the normal kitchen. I have 100s of feet of
shelves and pullouts in my kitchen made of melamine board. None are
warped. They are 8 years old now and will look the same in another 8.
Or 28.

In short, it isn't the material, it is how the material is used.

--
dadiOH
________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.0...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://www.gbronline.com/xico/
_________________________________

From: mark Ransley
Date: Mon, Jun 23, 2003 0:08
Message-id:


You're a fool and you will soon be broke.

BRBR

Well, I hope that made you feel better. Now lie down and wait for your meds to
work,
zemedelec

Can't disagree more. Our kitchen cabinets were made in Canada, we're
in So. Calif., and the installer left a slab of cabinet carcase
material about 12""X96" for me to use for jigs, I'm a woodworking
hobbiest. It was propped against the garage cabinets just slightly
off vertical and in 2-3 days it sagged! This is what the "Certified"
Kitchen Designer claimed was "High grade particleboard". I hope to
have died or sold before our sink malfunctions especially with granite
drainboard and undermount sink!

On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:09:38 -0400, "dadiOH" wrote:

In short, it isn't the material, it is how the material is used.

You did EXACTLY right, totally! They need more stuff returned and
refused when they're such poor goods. I was also shopping for cabinets
recently and was astounded to see the poor quality. It isn't just Home
Depot. Check underneath and in back of some of the junk at posh
kitchen showrooms and you will enroll at the nearest woodworking
school immediately. You can often buy tools and take the courses and
use superior materials and STILL come out ahead!

Kitchen cabinets are a mess. The industry is so reliant on fake
everything to keep up the profit margin they aspire to, you can pay
AMAZING amounts of money for work that would flunk a high school kid
right out of Shop class. I've seen $2,000 hutches with fake hardboard
backs stapled in - crookedly. Even some woodworking books now devote
themselves to teaching how to make junk.

Avoid it all. Want to save REAL money? Find a cabinet shop with humans
in it who want the business and can DO the business. Even an inspired
or careful amateur might do better than some of these manufactories. A
small cabinetmaker, local, who has access to the materials -- might be
a solution worth considering.




Clifford Keele wrote in message et...
One of the biggest remodel jobs that many of us face is the kitchen
remodel. I am paying more for new kitchen cabinets than my two cars
COMBINED!!!

I chose to go the Home Depot / Lowes route for the cabinets. In part
because I went to a few kitchen design places and their rates were
extraordinarily high. Perhaps I could have shopped around more.

One of my requirements that I told all the kitchen designers that I
worked with was that I wanted all plywood construction. The particle
board cabinets that I've seen may look ok when installed, but start
looking quite ragged and ugly very soon.

So, we sat down and put together the first design..... Except that it
was all plywood EXCEPT for the shelves. The designer tried to convince
me that the "furniture board" type particle board was better than
plywood. The argument sounded good except that every particle board
shelf that I could find which was over 5 years old was warped, or ratty
looking.

So, I returned and we redesigned the kitchen in both KraftMaid and
Thomasville who were supposed to have true "all plywood construction".
Thomasville described their shelves as "Choice of plywood or
furnitureboard shelves, laminated to match the cabinet interior"

I decided that I liked the Thomasville sink base better so I chose the
Deluxe "All Plywood" Thomasville construction.

Well, the cabinets arrived Friday. The finish was mediocre. But on
closer inspection, I noticed that the interior finish just seemed
plain strange. So I looked at it further. The interior, top, and bottom
of the cabinets were finished with a vinyl imitation wood.

So, I headed back to Home Depot where I was told that the vinyl imitation
wood was better than varnished wood for the interior!!! The designer
said that it was easier to clean. I must admit that I didn't believe
that argument.

I still can't understand how the "Top of the Line" Home Depot cabinet in
the "Deluxe Construction" has such poor quality construction. Anyway,
the whole pile, $5000 worth of cabinets was taken back to Home Depot. I
just ate the $125 delivery fee and 15% restocking fee (of course, I kept
the "free" sink base that caused the whole problem).

I am not happy about another month delay in my project.... But, after
investing thousands of dollars, and many, many hours on the remodel job,
I am not going to accept the junk that Home Depot is trying to pawn off.

The KraftMaid line did have the all plywood construction, and it is
"finished" inside and out. And, it is cheaper. I am definitely looking
elsewhere for my replacement cabinets, and will not consider Home Depot
for major appliances either.

The moral to the story.... MAKE SURE YOU ASK HOW THE CABINETS WILL BE
FINISHED, INSIDE AND OUT. PLYWOOD DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY HAVE ACTUALLY
MADE FINISHED WOOD.

Give me a break. I know that the world is encouraging economy and mass
production. But, don't ignore the quality and workmanship of the final
product.

----- CK -----

Clifford Keele wrote in message et...

So, we sat down and put together the first design..... Except that it
was all plywood EXCEPT for the shelves. The designer tried to convince
me that the "furniture board" type particle board was better than
plywood. The argument sounded good except that every particle board
shelf that I could find which was over 5 years old was warped, or ratty
looking.

How may house have you seen?
Up north here, all the particle board shelf (2') I've seen are in
good shape over 15 years. Maybe you live in a high humidity climate?


So, I headed back to Home Depot where I was told that the vinyl imitation
wood was better than varnished wood for the interior!!! The designer
said that it was easier to clean. I must admit that I didn't believe
that argument.

The desinger was right. The melamine is easier to clean.


Give me a break. I know that the world is encouraging economy and mass
production. But, don't ignore the quality and workmanship of the final
product.

You have pay dearly to get the quality ans workmanship meet your
requirement.

On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:57:14 -0400, Bob Bowles
wrote:

Can't disagree more. Our kitchen cabinets were made in Canada, we're
in So. Calif., and the installer left a slab of cabinet carcase
material about 12""X96" for me to use for jigs, I'm a woodworking
hobbiest. It was propped against the garage cabinets just slightly
off vertical and in 2-3 days it sagged! This is what the "Certified"
Kitchen Designer claimed was "High grade particleboard". I hope to
have died or sold before our sink malfunctions especially with granite
drainboard and undermount sink!

On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:09:38 -0400, "dadiOH" wrote:

In short, it isn't the material, it is how the material is used.

What is the name of the cabinets made in Canada? We were thinking of
getting cabinets made in Canada as several people here in this area
have done that - however, I don't know the make because we have just
started thinking about it so haven't gone looking yet.

Jackie

(to e-mail take the "x" off jackie)

Our cupboards are 26 years old.

The cupboard 'box' was made out of particleboard (sort of ground up sawdust
with glue holding it together). The only problem we had with this material
was water dripping off still wet glasses causing the surface under the
glasses to swell. We recently sanded down the surface & painted it with Bin
primer then 3 coats of Melamine paint. If we had painted it from the
beginning this would not have occurred.

The doors were solid oak frames with oak plywood panel inserts, stained and
varnished. Back then the handles were placed dead centre on the door
panels - which meant the door outside corner finish was worn down as that is
where people grab to open the door.

After getting prices for new cabinet doors - we ended up lightly sanding
each door (to remove the grime & add some grip to the existing finish),
getting a local paint store to make up some stain that matched the color of
the existing finish (after 26 years - slightly yellowed varnished wood) then
put on 2 coats of clear satin polyurethane & the end result is they look
like new.

The only thing we wish we could change would be the position of the door
handles - but it was a lot cheaper to just replace the existing handles.

Hope this helps...




"Carpenter Ant" wrote in message
...

"Clifford Keele" wrote in message
t...
The moral to the story.... MAKE SURE YOU ASK HOW THE CABINETS WILL BE
FINISHED, INSIDE AND OUT. PLYWOOD DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY HAVE ACTUALLY
MADE FINISHED WOOD.

Give me a break. I know that the world is encouraging economy and mass
production. But, don't ignore the quality and workmanship of the final
product.

----- CK -----



----------
AMEN
couldn't have said it better myself
----------

Kitchen Craft is the maker. Maple raised panel doors on euro hinges
but that's where Quality stops. Shelving is 11/16" instead of 3/4"
and standard screws provided for paper towel holders expect 3/4"
stock. Ours has a couple of spots where screws knocked laminate off
of the particleboard. If you design your own and use particleboard
ensure enough supports are provided to avoid sagging shelves!

On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 00:31:50 GMT, Jackie Kuscher
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:57:14 -0400, Bob Bowles
wrote:

Can't disagree more. Our kitchen cabinets were made in Canada, we're
in So. Calif., and the installer left a slab of cabinet carcase
material about 12""X96" for me to use for jigs, I'm a woodworking
hobbiest. It was propped against the garage cabinets just slightly
off vertical and in 2-3 days it sagged! This is what the "Certified"
Kitchen Designer claimed was "High grade particleboard". I hope to
have died or sold before our sink malfunctions especially with granite
drainboard and undermount sink!

On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:09:38 -0400, "dadiOH" wrote:

In short, it isn't the material, it is how the material is used.

What is the name of the cabinets made in Canada? We were thinking of
getting cabinets made in Canada as several people here in this area
have done that - however, I don't know the make because we have just
started thinking about it so haven't gone looking yet.

Jackie

(to e-mail take the "x" off jackie)

On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 02:51:21 GMT, mike wrote:

Buy American products when possible. Why help Canada when they didn't
help us in our fight against terrorism?


It's not "our" fight against terrorism, it's Bush's agenda. I don't
expect the USA to stop it either, (just spend a lot of our money for
nothing.)

And you think a piece of 12" x 96" ply wouldn't warp? hehehe...

As I said originally, it isn't the material, it is how the material is
used.

dadiOH
______________________

Bob Bowles wrote:
Can't disagree more. Our kitchen cabinets were made in Canada,
we're in So. Calif., and the installer left a slab of cabinet
carcase material about 12""X96" for me to use for jigs, I'm a
woodworking hobbiest. It was propped against the garage cabinets
just slightly off vertical and in 2-3 days it sagged!

In short, it isn't the material, it is how the material is used.

"mike" wrote in message ...
Buy American products when possible. Why help Canada when they didn't
help us in our fight against terrorism?

--
Mike


Bad emotions = bad business.

EJ

HD touts lowest price. This doesn't mean best quality for lowest
price. They seem to go for lowest quality to obtain their lowest
price - generally speaking.

That said, I recently had the experience of dealing with a kitchen
design place (not totally custom) and they sold fairly expensive
cabinetry that was crap. Real nice, solid wood doors; particle board,
stapled together carcasses. This was high mid level cabinetry in the
lines they carried.

The designers are charging for the design and (presumably) the
cabinets. Their time (to do the design) ain't free. Custom anything
always costs more. They probably have a little more experience and
know-how on kitchen layouts and requrements than the saleman in HD.
OTOH, it may be overkill for your situation.

Don't know how big your kitchen is, but $5000 isn't really that much
for cabinets and the plywood upgrade could add significantly. It
might be that your budget isn't quite enough for what you want.

Renata



On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 23:38:44 -0500, Clifford Keele
wrote:

One of the biggest remodel jobs that many of us face is the kitchen
remodel. I am paying more for new kitchen cabinets than my two cars
COMBINED!!!

I chose to go the Home Depot / Lowes route for the cabinets. In part
because I went to a few kitchen design places and their rates were
extraordinarily high. Perhaps I could have shopped around more.
--snip--
----- CK -----

Renata wrote:

snipped the mundane repeat

yeah, yeah, yeah. Try adding something new to the thread.

Carpenter Ant wrote:





----------
AMEN
couldn't have said it better myself
----------

We know that. Because you never do.

Your contribution?

On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 15:09:24 GMT, murk Ransdley
wrote:

Renata wrote:

snipped the mundane repeat

yeah, yeah, yeah. Try adding something new to the thread.