On 10/8/2015 12:44 PM, Vic Smith wrote:

There's no easy/quick way from the city out to palatine. Most of
the folks who made the commute when I lived there took the
train into the city (then back out at night)

There's an easy way if you're willing to brave the Kennedy and you
know the ins and outs of route 53. I didn't want to take the Kennedy
and didn't know 53. Besides, it was different road then.
I think I took Milwaukee, then Rand, but won't swear to it.
All I remember was that it seemed interminable, and I promised myself
to never go to Palatine again. The promise lasted 30 years.

When I lived in MG, I would take the Ryan to Dundee then West to ~Hicks
to get into Palatine from the North. Most of the time, this was going
*against* rush hour traffic so a reasonably quick shot. Though not a
"short" trip by any stretch.

The drives I would always dread were down Western or somesuch where
you're not "out" far enough to grab a bigger arterial and get stuck
with all that stop'n'go.

In chitown, you're either a city liver or a suburbanite -- the two
places don't tend to mix, well.

[My best friend lived in the city while I was in the burbs. I can
count the number of times we'd see each other in a given year on
a few fingers!]

I've been on both sides of that.
And took the train for 5 years when I worked downtown.
15 minute trip, long enough to have a beer on the way home.

I think the train was underappreciated in Chicago. Having lived
in many places *without* that sort of service, it is sorely missed!
E.g., for me to get *to* an interstate, here, is roughly 30-40
minutes -- and they surround the city! So, everything is stop'n'go.

OTOH, most roads across town are 45MPH or even more whereas that
would typically be 25 or 35 in other cities.

On Thu, 08 Oct 2015 14:44:46 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

There's an easy way if you're willing to brave the Kennedy

Is that the road that ends in the water?

On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 21:11:06 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

It seems to me that you don't believe the results of the Mythbusters
test

No I just think comparing a roundabout to a 4 way stop is like
comparing Ebola to the Plague. I wouldn't want either of them.
They are both designed to slow traffic down and coerce people to go
another way.

In message ,
writes
On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 21:11:06 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

It seems to me that you don't believe the results of the Mythbusters
test

No I just think comparing a roundabout to a 4 way stop is like
comparing Ebola to the Plague. I wouldn't want either of them.
They are both designed to slow traffic down and coerce people to go
another way.

It seems to me this 'discussion' has suddenly become rather silly.
--
Ian

On Thu, 08 Oct 2015 17:52:29 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 08 Oct 2015 14:44:46 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

There's an easy way if you're willing to brave the Kennedy

Is that the road that ends in the water?

Not familiar with any road that ends in the water.
Happens in floods though. NC and SC had some recently.

On Thu, 08 Oct 2015 14:45:42 -0700, Don Y
wrote:


When I lived in MG, I would take the Ryan to Dundee then West to ~Hicks
to get into Palatine from the North.

You're thinking of the Edens. The Ryan is on the south side.

On 10/8/2015 3:13 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Thu, 08 Oct 2015 14:45:42 -0700, Don Y
wrote:


When I lived in MG, I would take the Ryan to Dundee then West to ~Hicks
to get into Palatine from the North.

You're thinking of the Edens. The Ryan is on the south side.

grin Could well be! It's been 30+ years since I lived in MG!

(We were at ~Dempster & Waukegan -- there was an "Avon" building just
north of there?; head east on Dempster to N-S interstate just before
Skokie -- invariably easier to head north AWAY from the city
than south *into* the city)

On 10/8/2015 3:10 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Thu, 08 Oct 2015 17:52:29 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 08 Oct 2015 14:44:46 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

There's an easy way if you're willing to brave the Kennedy

Is that the road that ends in the water?

Not familiar with any road that ends in the water.

Most roads in Des Plaines! :

Happens in floods though. NC and SC had some recently.

On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 23:08:33 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message ,
writes
On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 21:11:06 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

It seems to me that you don't believe the results of the Mythbusters
test

No I just think comparing a roundabout to a 4 way stop is like
comparing Ebola to the Plague. I wouldn't want either of them.
They are both designed to slow traffic down and coerce people to go
another way.

It seems to me this 'discussion' has suddenly become rather silly.

Here's an article about one the few traffic circle in my area.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...rcle-rotaries\
I've only been through it one time. Must have been uneventful,
because I barely remember it.
They call it suicide circle, and many people avoid it.
I asked my son - who drives though it all the time - what he thought
would be best. He says lights. Says it's a nightmare during rush
hour. But the residents there see it as a landmark.
Where streets are basically laid out in grids, as they are here, I've
got no problem with well-timed lights.

On Thu, 08 Oct 2015 15:23:39 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 10/8/2015 3:13 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Thu, 08 Oct 2015 14:45:42 -0700, Don Y
wrote:


When I lived in MG, I would take the Ryan to Dundee then West to ~Hicks
to get into Palatine from the North.

You're thinking of the Edens. The Ryan is on the south side.

grin Could well be! It's been 30+ years since I lived in MG!

(We were at ~Dempster & Waukegan -- there was an "Avon" building just
north of there?; head east on Dempster to N-S interstate just before
Skokie -- invariably easier to head north AWAY from the city
than south *into* the city)


Avon was torn down a couple years ago. It was on Golf and Waukegan.
That N-S interstate is the Edens. Always had that name far as I know.
Anyway, "reverse" commuting is no bargain now.
But it's hard to generalize.

On Thu, 08 Oct 2015 15:24:40 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 10/8/2015 3:10 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Thu, 08 Oct 2015 17:52:29 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 08 Oct 2015 14:44:46 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

There's an easy way if you're willing to brave the Kennedy

Is that the road that ends in the water?

Not familiar with any road that ends in the water.

Most roads in Des Plaines! :

Happens in floods though. NC and SC had some recently.


Had a work mate who lived in Des Plaines whose house would flood in
heavy rains.
He told me his neighbors on either side didn't flood.
And that his house was lower than his neighbors. I drove by there
once and sure enough his house was at the bottom of a barely
perceptible dip. I wouldn't have noticed if I didn't know to look.
I don't know if "dip" is the right word. I had to look hard to see
the street started gradually declining in elevation about 1/4 mile
from his house and ascending in the opposite direction.
What luck he had in picking a house.

On 10/8/2015 3:58 PM, Vic Smith wrote:

Avon was torn down a couple years ago. It was on Golf and Waukegan.

No loss. :

That N-S interstate is the Edens. Always had that name far as I know.
Anyway, "reverse" commuting is no bargain now.
But it's hard to generalize.

I suspect there hasn't been much "development" of infrastructure.
We have a large seasonal population, here (folks who want to get
away from your cold winters) and I can't think of any new/significant
expansion of roadways in the past 20 years. Unlike chicagoland,
we don't have large interstates perforating the city to act as
major thoroughfares -- you have to get out to the fringes of
the city to take advantage of genuine "highways".

On 10/8/2015 4:10 PM, Vic Smith wrote:

Had a work mate who lived in Des Plaines whose house would flood in
heavy rains.
He told me his neighbors on either side didn't flood.
And that his house was lower than his neighbors. I drove by there
once and sure enough his house was at the bottom of a barely
perceptible dip. I wouldn't have noticed if I didn't know to look.
I don't know if "dip" is the right word. I had to look hard to see
the street started gradually declining in elevation about 1/4 mile
from his house and ascending in the opposite direction.
What luck he had in picking a house.

I think DP is just too flat and the river doesn't help!

Prior to living in MG, I'd never known any place to flood.
And, it always seemed like it was *only* DP!

On 10/08/2015 02:11 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:

Roundabouts are basically flat speed bumps.

And the roads leading up to the red traffic lights are basically
temporary carparks!

In this town most of the new roundabouts consist of an island in the
middle of an intersection. Previously the intersections were
uncontrolled, no lights, no stop signs. Those are strictly 'calming'
devices and traps for anything larger than a passenger car that has to
make deliveries in the neighborhood.

There are three larger, more ambitious, roundabouts. Previously the main
route had no stop signs or lights and the side streets stopped.
Obviously I'm not there at every hour of every day but I never saw any
backups at those intersections.

So far no 4-way stop intersections have been replace by roundabouts.

On 10/08/2015 01:23 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:
Many lesser main roads and downright small roads also have roundabouts
(often minis). The latter may simply consist of a solid round circle (3'
or 4' diameter, and sometimes slightly domed so that traffic can pass
over it if necessary), painted in the centre of the junction
(intersection). In all cases, you give way to traffic which would
otherwise hit you from the right (as we drive on the left here). It's
second-nature to do so, and there are no ifs or buts.

There are a number of those here. The first attempts were tasteful
little circles with flowers and so forth. Very pretty but in an area
where the favored personal vehicle is a 3/4 ton 4WD pickup, they didn't
last long. The newer designs are minimalistic.

I'm sure I must have encountered another vehicle at one sometime but
they're primarily speed bumps.

On 10/08/2015 08:31 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I can unequivocally state that the roundabouts have been more efficient
during heavy traffic periods and an absolute joy when there is little to
no traffic.

Perhaps they work for you. In this town the question from most motorists
is "Why?" So far any rotaries have been constructed at intersections
where there is seldom any traffic. What passes for heavy traffic is all
on light controlled routes. The only thing that would help the major
problem street would be a bypass. That's what happens when the big box
stores all congregate on what used to be a two lane road on the edge of
town.

We did have one six way intersection that might have benefited from a
rotary but the final solution was blocking some of the legs and creating
a confusing set of detours to get around it. It drastically reduced the
wait times but that might just be because many of the businesses in the
area didn't survive the renovation.

On 10/08/2015 09:00 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
Actually, you're screwing up traffic when you do that. To maximize
traffic flow, everyone's supposed to use all open lanes as far as they
can, and then perform what's called a zipper merge, where the cars in
the lane next to the closed lane take turns letting the cars in the
closed lane merge. When people are accustomed to doing that, it goes
very smoothly. There's a left-hand zipper merge spot on my evening
commute, and it's no trouble. If you resent other drivers merging in
ahead of you, move into their lane and move on up.

When most people have merged into two slow moving lanes and someone
passes by in the lane that is closed confident he can force his way
ahead of the more orderly drivers it sometimes leads to a situation
called road rage.

The zipper merge works well when all available lanes are moving at the
same speed.

On 10/08/2015 09:07 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
All you're doing is creating a different merge point. Once traffic is
heavy enough to start backing up, the logical and safe way is fill
both lanes and take turns merging where the lane ends.
But if you want to be the traffic cop, have at it.

The situation I'm speaking of is a three lane road where there are signs
well back indicating one lane is closed and the drivers should merge.
Most people merge into the two remaining lanes which are slow moving.
Then some jackass takes advantage of the empty third lane, driving by
everyone at 70 mph, confident he can force his way in when he runs out
of road.

On 10/08/2015 09:15 AM, wrote:
Usually where I see the truckers blocking the closed lanes is at
construction sites.

That's the only place I've seen it and then only with three lanes, one
of which is closed for construction.

On 10/08/2015 11:19 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
When there is heavy traffic in both lanes, then a merge point closer to
end of the disappearing lane makes perfect sense. It's those one or two
drivers that aren't courteous enough to wait like everyone else that
I object to.

That's the situation where truckers start playing their reindeer games.
99% of the drivers are merging in an orderly fashion. The other 1%
figure they're so important they can pass everyone and go to the head of
the line.

On 10/08/2015 11:19 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
I met a guy who was a top Army recruiter and he told me that the big secret to avoiding military service during the Vietnam War was,"allergies".

Damn, and I find out 45 years too late. I was wired for sound when I
went to my physical. The so-called doctor took my pulse, said "170?
That's a little high. Next!"

Funny, most of my friends suddenly turned up with ailments. I guess they
were smarter than I or knew someone who knew someone on the draft board.

Like Cheney, I had other priorities. I lived about 60 miles north of
Woodstock but I was on a plane headed for South Carolina three days
before the concert. Rather ****ed me off.

In message , Vic Smith
writes



Here's an article about one the few traffic circle in my area.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...fic-circle-cha
nges-met-20131222_1_roundabouts-traffic-circle-rotaries\
I've only been through it one time. Must have been uneventful,
because I barely remember it.
They call it suicide circle, and many people avoid it.
I asked my son - who drives though it all the time - what he thought
would be best. He says lights. Says it's a nightmare during rush
hour. But the residents there see it as a landmark.
Where streets are basically laid out in grids, as they are here, I've
got no problem with well-timed lights.

The article says
"Motorists "don't know when it's their turn to go and when it's their
turn to wait," said Jim Coogan, 55. "There's just not a lot of them
here, so people don't know what to do.""

Using roundabouts (of all flavours) isn't rocket science. I'm actually
beginning to believe that in 1969. the American really DIDN'T put a man
(or two) on the Moon - and probably never have!
--
Ian

On Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 10:22:36 PM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 10/08/2015 11:19 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
I met a guy who was a top Army recruiter and he told me that the big secret to avoiding military service during the Vietnam War was,"allergies".

Damn, and I find out 45 years too late. I was wired for sound when I
went to my physical. The so-called doctor took my pulse, said "170?
That's a little high. Next!"

Funny, most of my friends suddenly turned up with ailments. I guess they
were smarter than I or knew someone who knew someone on the draft board.

Like Cheney, I had other priorities. I lived about 60 miles north of
Woodstock but I was on a plane headed for South Carolina three days
before the concert. Rather ****ed me off.

Dammit, I wanted to get in! Me and my brother made 98 on the ASVAB test when we were 16 years old. There were pictures/drawings of tools that had to be identified and we were the only ones who knew what they all were. We laughed when we saw the picture of a saw set tool. We both thought it was funny.. ^_^

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saw_set

[8~{} Uncle Saw Monster

On 10/8/2015 10:41 PM, rbowman wrote:

So far no 4-way stop intersections have been replace by roundabouts.

Yesterday, in NY State, I drove through two roundabouts
which replaced four way stops. I guess NYS is a bit
different?

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 7:48:19 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/8/2015 10:41 PM, rbowman wrote:

So far no 4-way stop intersections have been replace by roundabouts.

Yesterday, in NY State, I drove through two roundabouts
which replaced four way stops.


I guess NYS is a bit different?

That gets my vote for understatement of the year.

On 10/09/2015 03:03 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
Dammit, I wanted to get in! Me and my brother made 98 on the ASVAB test when we were 16 years old. There were pictures/drawings of tools that had to be identified and we were the only ones who knew what they all were. We laughed when we saw the picture of a saw set tool. We both thought it was funny. ^_^

Yeah, I'd aced that one. My grandfather had been the head of maintenance
at a paper mill so I grew up with a cellar full of obscure tools to play
with. The battery of tests was going pretty good until we got to the
code portion. In later life I got my speed up just enough to pass the
Amateur Advanced test but Morse code is nothing I have an aptitude for.

A lot of the recruits had been screened out and processed before the
supplemental tests were complete. Since it was alphabetical I was at the
head of the line for those that survived the afternoon tests. A sergeant
looked up and said "Oh, we're getting to the smart ones." Having been
indoctrinated to some extent I replied "Sir! Yes, sir!" Wrong answer.

You didn't miss anything but my idea of hell on earth is being around
people 24/7 so I'm biased. The mind games might work on teenagers but
I'd been around the block a few times and didn't think much of them.

On 10/09/2015 01:44 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
Using roundabouts (of all flavours) isn't rocket science. I'm actually
beginning to believe that in 1969. the American really DIDN'T put a man
(or two) on the Moon - and probably never have!
--

For a country so dependent on the automobile, much of the population
isn't very good at driving. The LA area might be an exception. In the
best Darwinian manner the truly incompetent drivers don't make it to
breeding age.

There has been an ongoing discussion of the European tiered licensing
schemes for motorcyclists in one of the magazines I get. While Americans
are big on the freedom thing even the riders who have survived long
enough to learn how to read agree giving a 17 year old the keys to a
Hayabusa isn't the brightest thing in the world.

The automobile licensing programs aren't much better.

On 10/09/2015 05:48 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/8/2015 10:41 PM, rbowman wrote:

So far no 4-way stop intersections have been replace by roundabouts.

Yesterday, in NY State, I drove through two roundabouts
which replaced four way stops. I guess NYS is a bit
different?


It's the proximity to Massachusetts; the plague is spreading. The
feeling here is the city engineers have read roundabouts are a Good
Thing and feel they should use them. Like I said, maybe they're just
practicing, but so far they haven't built one anyplace where there
really is a problem.

On 2015-10-09, rbowman wrote:

It's the proximity to Massachusetts; the plague is spreading.

No, it's leapfrogging clear across the country. Not only have I seen
small roundabouts, from CO to CA, mostly on freeway overpass access
lanes, but they planted a roundabout in lil' ol' Livermore (SFBA).
They put it in a little used intersection that had no previous stop
signs. One of those bumps in the middle of an intersection thingies,
as you describe it. It's the only one in town and is more a curiosity
than a serious traffic control mechanism.

nb

On 10/09/2015 09:50 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Au contraire, they got their man elected. Twice.

They had a lot of help -- the GOP


It's the GOP that seems to be running around in circles and never
getting anywhere - just look at them objectively; the crazies on
the far right have pushed the entire party to irrelevance.

No argument there. I'm just weary of voting for the candidate that sucks
less.

On 10/09/2015 11:13 AM, notbob wrote:
No, it's leapfrogging clear across the country. Not only have I seen
small roundabouts, from CO to CA, mostly on freeway overpass access
lanes, but they planted a roundabout in lil' ol' Livermore (SFBA).
They put it in a little used intersection that had no previous stop
signs. One of those bumps in the middle of an intersection thingies,
as you describe it. It's the only one in town and is more a curiosity
than a serious traffic control mechanism.

That's the head scratcher here. A black lab taking a nap in the
intersection would be just as effective and would be in no danger
whatsoever.

That's not as fanciful as it seems. I live on an unlighted, narrow rural
road and one of the local labs likes to sleep on the nice, warm
pavement. Between him, the deer, and the wild turkeys there's a lot of
traffic calming.