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Default Fergy, no guilty

No indictment in Fergy, it's all over.

Move along to the next story.

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Default Fergy, no guilty

On 11/24/2014 06:08 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
No indictment in Fergy, it's all over.

Move along to the next story.


It's Bush's fault!
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You know, I would hate to live in a place like that where you never know from one day to the next when there's gonna be a riot and when, as a store owner, you're going to have to sleep with a gun at your side in your store at night to protect your inventory from looters. Or when you're going to have to board up your store front with plywood as a measure against looters as happened all last weekend in Ferguson.

In Philadelphia today, a policeman shot a 12 year old brandishing a toy gun. (Some reports are that it was a BB gun, but everyone agrees that it was manufactured to look exactly like a real gun.) I hope the people of Philadelphia recognize that even if a 12 year old points a very real looking gun at someone, that's the kind of situation that can lead to tragedy. Why would someone even want to have a gun like that in their possession when they know the potential for it being mistaken for a real gun? It can't protect them in any real way, all it can do is get them shot.

Last edited by nestork : November 25th 14 at 05:47 AM
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On 11/24/2014 11:12 PM, nestork wrote:
You know, I would hate to live in a place like that where you never know
from one day to the next when there's gonna be a riot and when, as a
store owner, you're going to have to sleep with a gun at your side in
your store at night to protect your inventory from looters. Or when
you're going to have to board up your store front with plywood as a
measure against looters as happened all last weekend in Ferguson.


Fortunately, not all of Canada is that way.


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In article ,
Stormin Mormon wrote:

No indictment in Fergy, it's all over.

Move along to the next story.


Holder and the AG's office hasn't weighed in yet. I would like someone
to ask how civil rights can be impacted if the cop wasn't doing anything
wrong.
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but what they conceal is vital.²
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On 11/25/2014 8:12 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
Stormin Mormon wrote:

No indictment in Fergy, it's all over.

Move along to the next story.


Holder and the AG's office hasn't weighed in yet. I would like someone
to ask how civil rights can be impacted if the cop wasn't doing anything
wrong.


There were folks smashing glass, burning cop
cars, torching warehouse, looting stores.
Wonder if that resulted in any arrests? And
why not? If you're black in Fergy, the law
doesn't apply to you last night? What kind
of message is that?

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Default Fergy, no guilty

On 11/25/2014 7:12 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
Stormin Mormon wrote:

No indictment in Fergy, it's all over.

Move along to the next story.


Holder and the AG's office hasn't weighed in yet. I would like someone
to ask how civil rights can be impacted if the cop wasn't doing anything
wrong.


Just wait! You know who will pull an executive order out of his a** and
take care of that little niggling detail.




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On 11/25/2014 9:23 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 11/25/2014 7:12 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
Stormin Mormon wrote:

No indictment in Fergy, it's all over.

Move along to the next story.


Holder and the AG's office hasn't weighed in yet. I would like someone
to ask how civil rights can be impacted if the cop wasn't doing anything
wrong.


Just wait! You know who will pull an executive order out of his a** and
take care of that little niggling detail.


He might do it with low budget, in a
niggardly manner.


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Default Fergy, no guilty (Grand Jury Transcipt)

On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 21:08:13 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

No indictment in Fergy, it's all over.

Move along to the next story.


286 pages, Ofc. Wilson's testimony begins ~ page 207.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/248128351/Darren-Wilson-Testimony

"Darren Wilson's medical records, as presented to the grand jury."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/248130943/Darren-Wilson-Medical-Records
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On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 21:08:13 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

No indictment in Fergy, it's all over.


No yet. The feds have nothing for civil rights violation, BUT the
Brown family will sue Wilson in civil court for wrongful death. Make
him a financially broke man.

No job, a wanted man (bounties were put on him) - damaged for many
years.

Move along to the next story.

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Oren wrote:

On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 21:08:13 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

No indictment in Fergy, it's all over.


No yet. The feds have nothing for civil rights violation, BUT the
Brown family will sue Wilson in civil court for wrongful death. Make
him a financially broke man.


Last I knew cops had civil immunity for their lawful actions on duty.
The family is sure to try to sure someone - the city, the state, the
store their thug robbed, etc. but I think they are SOL on the cop.
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On 11/25/2014 8:24 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/25/2014 8:12 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
Stormin Mormon wrote:

No indictment in Fergy, it's all over.

Move along to the next story.


Holder and the AG's office hasn't weighed in yet. I would like someone
to ask how civil rights can be impacted if the cop wasn't doing anything
wrong.


There were folks smashing glass, burning cop
cars, torching warehouse, looting stores.
Wonder if that resulted in any arrests? And
why not? If you're black in Fergy, the law
doesn't apply to you last night? What kind
of message is that?

-
.
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.


They even invaded a McDonalds.
"Do you want fries with that?"
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On Tue, 25 Nov 2014 14:08:41 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Oren wrote:

On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 21:08:13 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

No indictment in Fergy, it's all over.


No yet. The feds have nothing for civil rights violation, BUT the
Brown family will sue Wilson in civil court for wrongful death. Make
him a financially broke man.


Last I knew cops had civil immunity for their lawful actions on duty.
The family is sure to try to sure someone - the city, the state, the
store their thug robbed, etc. but I think they are SOL on the cop.


The cop is liable for denial of medical attention for a prisoner
(SCOTUS); he does have immunity for his lawful actions ... The Brown
family will still sue Officer Wilson.
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On 11/25/2014 4:05 PM, Oren wrote:
On Tue, 25 Nov 2014 14:08:41 -0600, "Pete C."


Last I knew cops had civil immunity for their lawful actions on duty.
The family is sure to try to sure someone - the city, the state, the
store their thug robbed, etc. but I think they are SOL on the cop.


The cop is liable for denial of medical attention for a prisoner
(SCOTUS); he does have immunity for his lawful actions ... The Brown
family will still sue Officer Wilson.


On the radio today, Nov 25, 2014 I heard a quote
from the cop "I felt like a five year old facing
hulk Hogan. At no time was I in control."

How do you deny medical care to Ernest T. Bass,
who does "you'll never catch me"?


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One thing I heard today that I have trouble with...

Officer Darren Wilson approached Brown and his friend on the street and called for back-up.
Wilson drove his police car so as to stop traffic and called Brown over.
Brown and Wilson then struggled for Wilson's service revolver, and at least one shot went off with the bullet grazing Michael Brown's finger and lodging in the car door.
Brown then ran away down the same street he was walking down with his friend.
Wilson than got out of his police car and chased after Brown on foot.
Brown then stopped and turned around to face Wilson.
Wilson also then stopped.
(what words, if any, were exchange between Wilson and Brown I don't know and I didn't hear if there was any sort of verbal exchange. Wilson might have said "Stop, or I'll shoot" or something to that effect, but it's not part of what I heard this morning on TV)
Wilson then fired a total of SIX SHOTS into Brown.

I'm having a problem with that.
Couldn't Wilson have shot Brown in the leg once to stop him?

After the first shot, I have trouble believing that Brown would still be approaching Wilson aggressively. Why would it have been necessary to fire FIVE MORE shots into Brown.

Also, don't police service revolvers typically only have 6 bullets? Where did the extra bullet come from?

This is stuff that I heard this morning on the TV news. Were they incorrect about the number of shots? I have a problem with Wilson needing to empty his service revolver into Brown to stop his attack. You don't even see that on TV where a person take 6 bullets to the chest and keeps on attacking, unless of course they're a zombie, but let's no go there.

Last edited by nestork : November 26th 14 at 01:10 AM


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On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 6:17:13 PM UTC-6, nestork wrote:

This is stuff that I heard this morning on the TV news. Were they
incorrect about the number of shots? I have a problem with Wilson
needing to empty his service revolver into Brown to stop his attack.
You don't even see that on TV where a person take 6 bullets to the chest
and keeps on attacking, unless of course they're a zombie, but let's no
go there.


10 shots from that magazine (Sig Sauer P229)
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On 11/25/2014 6:01 PM, nestork wrote:
One thing I heard today that I have trouble with...

Officer Darren Wilson approached Brown and his friend on the street and
called for back-up.
Wilson drove his police car so as to stop traffic and called Brown
over.
Brown and Wilson then struggled for Wilson's service revolver, and at
least one shot went off with the bullet grazing Michael Brown's finger
and lodging in the car door.
Brown then ran away down the same street he was walking down with his
friend.
Wilson than got out of his police car and chased after Brown on foot.
Brown then stopped and turned around to face Wilson.
Wilson also then stopped.
(what words, if any, were exchange between Wilson and Brown I don't know
and I didn't hear if there was any sort of verbal exchange. Wilson
might have said "Stop, or I'll shoot" or something to that effect, but
it's not part of what I heard this morning on TV)
Wilson then fired a total of SIX SHOTS into Brown.

I'm having a problem with that.
Couldn't Wilson have shot Brown in the leg once to stop him?

After the first shot, I have trouble believing that Brown would still be
approaching Wilson aggressively. Why would it have been necessary to
fire FIVE MORE shots into Brown.

Also, don't police service revolvers typically only have 6 bullets?
Where did the extra bullet come from?


The grassy knoll.



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"nestork" wrote in message
...

One thing I heard today that I have trouble with...

Officer Darren Wilson approached Brown and his friend on the street and
called for back-up.
Wilson drove his police car so as to stop traffic and called Brown
over.
Brown and Wilson then struggled for Wilson's service revolver, and at
least one shot went off with the bullet grazing Michael Brown's finger
and lodging in the car door.
Brown then ran away down the same street he was walking down with his
friend.
Wilson than got out of his police car and chased after Brown on foot.
Brown then stopped and turned around to face Wilson.
Wilson also then stopped.
(what words, if any, were exchange between Wilson and Brown I don't know
and I didn't hear if there was any sort of verbal exchange. Wilson
might have said "Stop, or I'll shoot" or something to that effect, but
it's not part of what I heard this morning on TV)
Wilson then fired a total of SIX SHOTS into Brown.

I'm having a problem with that.
Couldn't Wilson have shot Brown in the leg once to stop him?


The officer fired at center of mass, as per training. And he missed several
times. You think he would have better luck aiming for a smaller target such
as his leg?



After the first shot, I have trouble believing that Brown would still be
approaching Wilson aggressively.


It happens. People get all fired up. Especially stupid people.

Why would it have been necessary to
fire FIVE MORE shots into Brown.


Keep firing until the threat is removed.



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"nestork" wrote in message
...

One thing I heard today that I have trouble with...

Wilson then fired a total of SIX SHOTS into Brown.


I'm having a problem with that.
Couldn't Wilson have shot Brown in the leg once to stop him?

After the first shot, I have trouble believing that Brown would still be
approaching Wilson aggressively. Why would it have been necessary to
fire FIVE MORE shots into Brown.

Also, don't police service revolvers typically only have 6 bullets?
Where did the extra bullet come from?



The bullets came out of his ass, just as your information must be comming
out of yours.

He did not have a revolver.

Just try hitting a moving target in the leg that is on his way to kill you.
Not only in the leg, but in the right place to break a bone. Just a hit to
the leg will not usually do much to stop anyone that had the adriline
flowing. It will surprise you how quickly someone can cover a short
distance. Get one of the paint ball type guns and and see if you can hit
him in the leg when he is charging you from 20 feet. By the way make sure it
is understood that if he gets to you he can beat you all he wants. Also let
him hit you in the face atleast once before it all starts so you willknow
how it feels. He shot Brown atleast once in the chest and that did not seem
to even slow him down the first time.

If the people would just do like the officers ask, there would not be any
shootings.



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On 11/25/2014 7:01 PM, nestork wrote:

Wilson then fired a total of SIX SHOTS into Brown.

I'm having a problem with that.
Couldn't Wilson have shot Brown in the leg once to stop him?

Marshall Dillon, Bat Masterson and Maverick could have. Real people,
not so much. Shooting a pistol under the circumstances that existed it
is not so easy to have the control that is needed to take out a leg.


After the first shot, I have trouble believing that Brown would still be
approaching Wilson aggressively. Why would it have been necessary to
fire FIVE MORE shots into Brown.

Also, don't police service revolvers typically only have 6 bullets?
Where did the extra bullet come from?


You've been watching too much TV. The Lone Ranger has silver bullets in
his six shooter. Police today have guns capable of 8 or 10 shots in a
clip and may have a spare loaded clip..

This is stuff that I heard this morning on the TV news. Were they
incorrect about the number of shots? I have a problem with Wilson
needing to empty his service revolver into Brown to stop his attack.
You don't even see that on TV where a person take 6 bullets to the chest
and keeps on attacking, unless of course they're a zombie, but let's no
go there.


So, you have been watching TV. When the adrenaline is pumping and your
life is in danger, you can pull the trigger a few times in just a couple
of seconds. You don't stop until the bad guy stops.



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On 11/25/2014 7:01 PM, nestork wrote:
One thing I heard today that I have trouble with...

(what words, if any, were exchange between Wilson and Brown I don't know
and I didn't hear if there was any sort of verbal exchange. Wilson
might have said "Stop, or I'll shoot" or something to that effect, but
it's not part of what I heard this morning on TV)
Wilson then fired a total of SIX SHOTS into Brown.


CY: Might have been six.


I'm having a problem with that.
Couldn't Wilson have shot Brown in the leg once to stop him?


CY: Only on television. In the real world, cops
are taught to "shoot to stop" which means center
chest.


After the first shot, I have trouble believing that Brown would still be
approaching Wilson aggressively. Why would it have been necessary to
fire FIVE MORE shots into Brown.


CY: Big guy, sometimes big guys can take a lot
of shooting.


Also, don't police service revolvers typically only have 6 bullets?
Where did the extra bullet come from?


CY: US cops now days typically carry 9 MM semi
automatic pistols. That round has been known to
fail to stop, at least a lot of times. IIRC part
of the reason the US Military went from .38
revolvers to .45 pistols, the smaller round
didn't stop enemy soldiers.

This is stuff that I heard this morning on the TV news. Were they
incorrect about the number of shots? I have a problem with Wilson
needing to empty his service revolver into Brown to stop his attack.


CY: Might been automatic.

You don't even see that on TV where a person take 6 bullets to the chest
and keeps on attacking, unless of course they're a zombie, but let's no
go there.


CY: I'd have to look for the stories on the
web, but there have been many where the 9 MM
fails to stop some one who is angry or on
drugs. I can believe a big youth taking seven
before he goes down.



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On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 7:15:15 PM UTC-6, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

You've been watching too much TV. The Lone Ranger has silver bullets in
his six shooter. Police today have guns capable of 8 or 10 shots in a
clip and may have a spare loaded clip..


http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/...pse3541862.jpg
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On 11/25/2014 2:08 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Oren wrote:

On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 21:08:13 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

No indictment in Fergy, it's all over.


No yet. The feds have nothing for civil rights violation, BUT the
Brown family will sue Wilson in civil court for wrongful death. Make
him a financially broke man.


Last I knew cops had civil immunity for their lawful actions on duty.
The family is sure to try to sure someone - the city, the state, the
store their thug robbed, etc. but I think they are SOL on the cop.



It's not the judgment he has to fear, it's the law suit. ANYONE can sue
ANYONE for ANYTHING. The action still must be defended and that costs
money.

Further, if punitive damages are sought, then the individual must/should
have his OWN attorney - generally not paid for by the municipality - to
defend HIS interests. If punitive damages are awarded (and never say
never) it's HIS to pay. The city or county cannot indemnify him as it
is against public policy. Punitive damages are awarded to PUNISH wrong
doing. No punishment of the individual agent if the municipality pays
them on his behalf, hence they are not allowed to.



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I expect his police union will have a lawyer on retainer that does work like this whenever a cop gets sued for something he did as part of his job. The city or municipality won't pay that lawyer, the union will out of the union dues the cops pay every month. Or, at least, that would make some kinda horse sense to me.

Quote:
It's not the judgment he has to fear, it's the law suit. ANYONE can sue
ANYONE for ANYTHING. The action still must be defended and that costs
money.
Yes, but if the judge considers it a trivial or unjustifiable suit meant only to harass, he can order the person doing the sueing to reimburse the person being sued for his legal expenses. Here in Canada, a prominant radio host sued the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for 55 million dollars cuz he got fired when the company found out he was beating up his girlfriends. Gean Gomeshi, the radio host, has since dropped his law suit, and the court has ordered him to pay the CBC $18,000 $CDN for the company's legal expenses in preparing to defend themselves in court. So, it's not a trivial matter to sue someone just out of spite. That spite can cost you a lot of money.

Last edited by nestork : November 26th 14 at 08:13 AM
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In article ,
nestork wrote:


I'm having a problem with that.
Couldn't Wilson have shot Brown in the leg once to stop him?


You have watched WAY too much tv. First you ever try to hit a
running knee cap from any distance. The leg in general would worse. Two,
even if he shot him in the leg, that doesn't mean he will go down or
even go down immediately.


After the first shot, I have trouble believing that Brown would still be
approaching Wilson aggressively. Why would it have been necessary to
fire FIVE MORE shots into Brown.

You keep shooting until the guy goes down. There is no forensic evidence
that the shots hit him except from the front so he was still approaching
the officer.


Also, don't police service revolvers typically only have 6 bullets?
Where did the extra bullet come from?

Not only too much TV, but too many Westerns (grin). Don't know of
any cop that carries a six-shooter as his service weapon.


This is stuff that I heard this morning on the TV news. Were they
incorrect about the number of shots? I have a problem with Wilson
needing to empty his service revolver into Brown to stop his attack.
You don't even see that on TV where a person take 6 bullets to the chest
and keeps on attacking, unless of course they're a zombie, but let's no
go there.

See above about usig TV for a standard.
--
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but what they conceal is vital.²
‹ Aaron Levenstein


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In article ,
Stormin Mormon wrote:

O
CY: Only on television. In the real world, cops
are taught to "shoot to stop" which means center
chest.

Although with the baddies getting vests, too, the mantra is swiftly
becoming two in the chest, one in the head, you are alive, he is dead.


--
³Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.²
‹ Aaron Levenstein
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On 11/26/2014 5:20 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
Stormin Mormon wrote:

O
CY: Only on television. In the real world, cops
are taught to "shoot to stop" which means center
chest.

Although with the baddies getting vests, too, the mantra is swiftly
becoming two in the chest, one in the head, you are alive, he is dead.


The news arrives in a flurry
You are in front of a grand jury
In defense you had to shoot
Now the teens they mob and loot
And that's the end of my sturry.


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On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 8:12:24 AM UTC-5, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
Stormin Mormon wrote:

No indictment in Fergy, it's all over.

Move along to the next story.


Holder and the AG's office hasn't weighed in yet. I would like someone
to ask how civil rights can be impacted if the cop wasn't doing anything
wrong.
--
Å‚Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.Ë›
€¹ Aaron Levenstein


Still waiting for Holder on Brown? Did Holder ever weigh in on
Zimmerman/Martin? AFAIK, after he started the similar big investigation,
I never heard him give a result. AFAIK, that one is still going on. How
do they get anything done around ther? Good grief.
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On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 7:17:13 PM UTC-5, nestork wrote:
One thing I heard today that I have trouble with...

Officer Darren Wilson approached Brown and his friend on the street and
called for back-up.
Wilson drove his police car so as to stop traffic and called Brown
over.
Brown and Wilson then struggled for Wilson's service revolver,


Small point, but it was actually a SigSauer, semiautomatic, .40, IMO
probably the best semi-automatic there is.


and at
least one shot went off with the bullet grazing Michael Brown's finger
and lodging in the car door.
Brown then ran away down the same street he was walking down with his
friend.
Wilson than got out of his police car and chased after Brown on foot.
Brown then stopped and turned around to face Wilson.
Wilson also then stopped.
(what words, if any, were exchange between Wilson and Brown I don't know
and I didn't hear if there was any sort of verbal exchange. Wilson
might have said "Stop, or I'll shoot" or something to that effect, but
it's not part of what I heard this morning on TV)
Wilson then fired a total of SIX SHOTS into Brown.


According to Wilson's testimony, he ordered Brown to stop, lay down,
repeatedly. When Brown came over to the car, slammed the door shut on
Wilson, and started to punch him, Wilson says he reached for his gun
and told Brown to stop or he would shoot him. He says Brown said to him
"You're too big of a pussy to shoot me".



I'm having a problem with that.
Couldn't Wilson have shot Brown in the leg once to stop him?


You've been watching too many old western movies again. First, by the
account of Wilson and some of the eye witnesses, Brown was charging
towards the Wilson at that point, refusing to stop. Second, AFAIK, all
law enforcement is trained to use a gun as only a last resort and then
to use it to quickly totally incapacitate the target. That is, they don't
fire warning shots, they don't try to shoot to wound, they shoot for
the large chest area, when possible, where a round
is most likely to achieve it's objective. It's not a stationary target.
It's someone running, coming at you, that could overpower and kill you in
another second or two. You don't have the luxury of trying to hit a moving
leg, and if that's successful, waiting to see if that works, etc. Also, according to Wilson's account,
he shot him several times, yet Brown continued to come at him. It was only
the last shot, that hit him in the head that ended it.


After the first shot, I have trouble believing that Brown would still be
approaching Wilson aggressively.


Why would that be? There are many police incidents where suspects are hit
multiple times, in non-strategic areas, and they don't stop. For one thing,
with andrenalin pumping, a shot that wounds may not even register much, if
at all, with the perp. For another, Brown was under the influence of drugs.
And if a shot was gonna stop him, then why was the final exchange happening
at all? We know 100% from forensic evidence that Brown was already shot
once in the initial engagment many seconds ago, while the officer was still in the car.


Why would it have been necessary to
fire FIVE MORE shots into Brown.


Because he kept coming. We know forensically that Brown was standing,
facing the officer when the shots were fired. If the first one or two
had made him keel over, he wouldn't still be standing.




Also, don't police service revolvers typically only have 6 bullets?
Where did the extra bullet come from?


That's the main reason most law enforcement today carry semi-automatics,
like the Sig. It was a 40, holds probably 12 rounds with a standard
magazine. So I guess it's not a small point after all.



This is stuff that I heard this morning on the TV news. Were they
incorrect about the number of shots? I have a problem with Wilson
needing to empty his service revolver into Brown to stop his attack.
You don't even see that on TV where a person take 6 bullets to the chest
and keeps on attacking, unless of course they're a zombie, but let's no
go there.


Then how is it that the forensic evidence shows that Brown was hit
while standing and facing the officer? He wasn't shot while lying down.
ABC news, Stephanopolous, did an exclusive interview with Wilson, I'm
sure you can find it online. And perps are shot six times and more in encounters with police frequently. Once some SOB is coming at you and
you're convinced that your life is in danger, you do what you have to do.
And that is to make sure you put him down, ASAP.


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On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 8:44:02 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/25/2014 7:01 PM, nestork wrote:
One thing I heard today that I have trouble with...

(what words, if any, were exchange between Wilson and Brown I don't know
and I didn't hear if there was any sort of verbal exchange. Wilson
might have said "Stop, or I'll shoot" or something to that effect, but
it's not part of what I heard this morning on TV)
Wilson then fired a total of SIX SHOTS into Brown.


CY: Might have been six.


I'm having a problem with that.
Couldn't Wilson have shot Brown in the leg once to stop him?


CY: Only on television. In the real world, cops
are taught to "shoot to stop" which means center
chest.


After the first shot, I have trouble believing that Brown would still be
approaching Wilson aggressively. Why would it have been necessary to
fire FIVE MORE shots into Brown.


CY: Big guy, sometimes big guys can take a lot
of shooting.


Also, don't police service revolvers typically only have 6 bullets?
Where did the extra bullet come from?


CY: US cops now days typically carry 9 MM semi
automatic pistols. That round has been known to
fail to stop, at least a lot of times. IIRC part
of the reason the US Military went from .38
revolvers to .45 pistols, the smaller round
didn't stop enemy soldiers.


IDK what US military used before the .45, but a few decades ago,
they went from the .45 to 9mm. Last I heard maybe a year ago, they
were opening the whole thing up again, looking for something with
more stopping power, among other criteria.




This is stuff that I heard this morning on the TV news. Were they
incorrect about the number of shots? I have a problem with Wilson
needing to empty his service revolver into Brown to stop his attack.


CY: Might been automatic.


It was a .40 SigSauer semi-automatic.


You don't even see that on TV where a person take 6 bullets to the chest
and keeps on attacking, unless of course they're a zombie, but let's no
go there.


CY: I'd have to look for the stories on the
web, but there have been many where the 9 MM
fails to stop some one who is angry or on
drugs. I can believe a big youth taking seven
before he goes down.


Absolutely. Some police have the same concerns that the military
does that you outlined. Apparently Ferguson is among the police that
have gone to .40 caliber.

I also don't know what TV Nestor is watching. I sure see plenty of
shows, movies, etc where the cops keep shooting, the bad guy takes
hit after hit and keeps coming. Somehow the bad guy then winds up
getting blown out a window of a 50 story building with the last shot,
which proves fatal. I guess you need a nearby window or similar for the
shot to work. Mind you that stuff on TV is pure crap, way overdone,
but there is plenty of it there. And as you say there a plenty of real
world cases all the time where police have to fire 6 or more shots to
end an encounter.




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On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 11:24:36 PM UTC-5, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 11/25/2014 2:08 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Oren wrote:

On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 21:08:13 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

No indictment in Fergy, it's all over.


No yet. The feds have nothing for civil rights violation, BUT the
Brown family will sue Wilson in civil court for wrongful death. Make
him a financially broke man.


Last I knew cops had civil immunity for their lawful actions on duty.
The family is sure to try to sure someone - the city, the state, the
store their thug robbed, etc. but I think they are SOL on the cop.



It's not the judgment he has to fear, it's the law suit. ANYONE can sue
ANYONE for ANYTHING. The action still must be defended and that costs
money.

Further, if punitive damages are sought, then the individual must/should
have his OWN attorney - generally not paid for by the municipality - to
defend HIS interests. If punitive damages are awarded (and never say
never) it's HIS to pay. The city or county cannot indemnify him as it
is against public policy. Punitive damages are awarded to PUNISH wrong
doing. No punishment of the individual agent if the municipality pays
them on his behalf, hence they are not allowed to.


I'm sure there will be plenty of excellent lawyers willing to defend
Brown pro bono, should it become necessary. Also, officers typically
belong to police organizations, one of the benefits of which is that they
pay for defense in such cases, etc. To be sure, I would not want to have
to go through the process of being sued, but it's one of the hazards of
the job. It would be interesting to know if the police there are
unionized and what their contract says about such cases, who pays what,
etc.
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On 11/26/2014 8:04 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 8:44:02 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
CY: US cops now days typically carry 9 MM semi
automatic pistols. That round has been known to
fail to stop, at least a lot of times. IIRC part
of the reason the US Military went from .38
revolvers to .45 pistols, the smaller round
didn't stop enemy soldiers.


IDK what US military used before the .45, but a few decades ago,
they went from the .45 to 9mm. Last I heard maybe a year ago, they
were opening the whole thing up again, looking for something with
more stopping power, among other criteria.

CY: I remember from some where, they used to
carry .38 special, which didn't work on some
of the pacific island folks we were trying to
kill.



This is stuff that I heard this morning on the TV news. Were they
incorrect about the number of shots? I have a problem with Wilson
needing to empty his service revolver into Brown to stop his attack.


CY: Might been automatic.


It was a .40 SigSauer semi-automatic.


CY: Thanks.

CY: I'd have to look for the stories on the
web, but there have been many where the 9 MM
fails to stop some one who is angry or on
drugs. I can believe a big youth taking seven
before he goes down.


Absolutely. Some police have the same concerns that the military
does that you outlined. Apparently Ferguson is among the police that
have gone to .40 caliber.

I also don't know what TV Nestor is watching. I sure see plenty of
shows, movies, etc where the cops keep shooting, the bad guy takes
hit after hit and keeps coming. Somehow the bad guy then winds up
getting blown out a window of a 50 story building with the last shot,
which proves fatal. I guess you need a nearby window or similar for the
shot to work. Mind you that stuff on TV is pure crap, way overdone,
but there is plenty of it there. And as you say there a plenty of real
world cases all the time where police have to fire 6 or more shots to
end an encounter.


cY: I've read of a few. Didn't find any
on the web, sadly. I did a search for
9 MM failure to stop list, and didn't
get a list. Surprised, seems like some
one would have compiled such a list.



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On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:17:10 AM UTC-5, nestork wrote:
Unquestionably Confused;3313271 Wrote:
On 11/25/2014 2:08 PM, Pete C. wrote:-

Oren wrote:-

On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 21:08:13 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:
-
No indictment in Fergy, it's all over.
-

No yet. The feds have nothing for civil rights violation, BUT the
Brown family will sue Wilson in civil court for wrongful death. Make
him a financially broke man.-

Last I knew cops had civil immunity for their lawful actions on duty.
The family is sure to try to sure someone - the city, the state, the
store their thug robbed, etc. but I think they are SOL on the cop.-


It's not the judgment he has to fear, it's the law suit. ANYONE can sue

ANYONE for ANYTHING. The action still must be defended and that costs
money.

Further, if punitive damages are sought, then the individual must/should

have his OWN attorney - generally not paid for by the municipality - to

defend HIS interests. If punitive damages are awarded (and never say
never) it's HIS to pay. The city or county cannot indemnify him as it
is against public policy. Punitive damages are awarded to PUNISH wrong

doing. No punishment of the individual agent if the municipality pays
them on his behalf, hence they are not allowed to.


I expect his police union will have a lawyer on retainer that does work
like this whenever a cop gets sued for something he did as part of his
job. The city or municipality won't pay that lawyer, the union will out
of the union dues the cops pay every month. Or, at least, that would
make some kinda horse sense to me.

It's not the judgment he has to fear, it's the law suit. ANYONE can sue

ANYONE for ANYTHING. The action still must be defended and that costs
money.


Yes, but if the judge considers it a trivial or unjustifiable suit meant
only to harass, he can order the person doing the sueing to reimburse
the person being sued for his legal expenses.


While theoretically possible, that rarely happens here in the USA.
And it certainly isn't going to happen in this case. A case against
the PD and Wilson clearly would not rise to the level of being totally
frivolous. And on top of that, would you be the judge that declared
it frivolous? You want another 12 businesses burned? Good grief.




Here in Canada, a
prominant radio host sued the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for 55
million dollars cuz he got fired when the company found out he was
beating up his girlfriends. Gean Gomeshi, the radio host, has since
dropped his law suit, and the court has ordered him to pay the CBC
$18,000 $CDN for the company's legal expenses in preparing to defend
themselves in court. So, it's not a trivial matter to sue someone just
out of spite. That spite can cost you a lot of money.




--
nestork


Of course here the family would clearly not be suing the PD or officer out of
spite.
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"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
On 11/26/2014 8:04 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 8:44:02 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
CY: US cops now days typically carry 9 MM semi
automatic pistols. That round has been known to
fail to stop, at least a lot of times. IIRC part
of the reason the US Military went from .38
revolvers to .45 pistols, the smaller round
didn't stop enemy soldiers.


IDK what US military used before the .45, but a few decades ago,
they went from the .45 to 9mm. Last I heard maybe a year ago, they
were opening the whole thing up again, looking for something with
more stopping power, among other criteria.

CY: I remember from some where, they used to
carry .38 special, which didn't work on some
of the pacific island folks we were trying to
kill.


Philippine Muslims.


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On 11/26/2014 8:24 AM, Pico Rico wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
CY: I remember from some where, they used to
carry .38 special, which didn't work on some
of the pacific island folks we were trying to
kill.


Philippine Muslims.


Those Muslims been trouble for centuries.

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On 11/26/2014 7:24 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 8:12:24 AM UTC-5, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
Stormin Mormon wrote:

No indictment in Fergy, it's all over.

Move along to the next story.


Holder and the AG's office hasn't weighed in yet. I would like someone
to ask how civil rights can be impacted if the cop wasn't doing anything
wrong.
--
Å‚Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.Ë›
€¹ Aaron Levenstein


Still waiting for Holder on Brown? Did Holder ever weigh in on
Zimmerman/Martin? AFAIK, after he started the similar big investigation,
I never heard him give a result. AFAIK, that one is still going on. How
do they get anything done around ther? Good grief.


They don't.
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On 11/26/2014 9:59 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
Unless the brain, spine or major bone is hit people just don't fall over in
their tracks. A man I know was in the Korean war and told how he shot
someone several times with the 30 cal carbine and the man kept on coming
and was finally stopped when someone hit him with the 30/06 rifle. He was
probably dead,but just did not know it from being hit 5 or 6 times before.


I read year ago, the carbine was about the same
power as a .38 special. The ought six was a lot
more power.

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"trader_4" wrote in message
...
IDK what US military used before the .45, but a few decades ago,
they went from the .45 to 9mm. Last I heard maybe a year ago, they
were opening the whole thing up again, looking for something with
more stopping power, among other criteria.


They used 38 cal revolvers. It was decded the 38 did not have enough
stopping power so something beter was wanted. The people were often on some
kind of drugs and even though after a killing shot they would have enough
life in them to keep on comming for a short time.
If you have ever seen a deer (close to a big man in weight ) shot with an
even more powerful rifle and still run for 100 yards it would be easy to see
how Brown could keep on comming after being shot severl times.

Unless the brain, spine or major bone is hit people just don't fall over in
their tracks. A man I know was in the Korean war and told how he shot
someone several times with the 30 cal carbine and the man kept on comming
and was finally stopped when someone hit him with the 30/06 rifle. He was
probably dead,but just did not know it from being hit 5 or 6 times before.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by trader_4 View Post
According to Wilson's testimony, he ordered Brown to stop, lay down,
repeatedly.
Yes, I watched that interview where Stefanopolous interviewed Wilson last night on TV. Wilson said that he fired at least one bullet at Brown several different times telling him to get down on the ground (or something to that effect) each time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trader_4 View Post
There are many police incidents where suspects are hit multiple times, in non-strategic areas, and they don't stop.
I do recall hearing some people talking that were involved in gun violence in some way, and occasionally you will hear someone say that they were shot and didn't even know it at the time. I guess if it's a small bullet and doesn't hit any vital organs, that can happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trader_4 View Post
We know 100% from forensic evidence that Brown was already shot
once in the initial engagment many seconds ago, while the officer was still in the car.
According to the prosecutor in the Grand Jury trial, that first bullet only grazed Brown's finger before getting lodged inside the car door. There was soot from the gunpowder found on Brown's hand in the autopsies. Brown probably felt it, but realized that it was nothing more than a scratch.
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On Tue, 25 Nov 2014 20:15:25 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Couldn't Wilson have shot Brown in the leg once to stop him?

Marshall Dillon, Bat Masterson and Maverick could have. Real people,
not so much. Shooting a pistol under the circumstances that existed it
is not so easy to have the control that is needed to take out a leg.


Elmer Fudd or Yosemite Sam ?

Back years ago, or escape contingency plan required a warning shot
before shooting a fleeing felon.

I had two escapees on the roof of the jail one night, I directed the
perimeter officer that if they jumped off the roof over the fence
"shoot them both'. I meant right then, not fifty yards away...

Miami FBI, DEA, DUSM, local Metro once served a warrant on a house for
drug storage. One agent was killed in the gun fight. One of the
traffickers was shot 6 times in the chest (.357?) AND lived. I
couldn't believe it until I saw the guy and welcomed him into the jail
from the hospital. He looked like the walking dead, but had a pulse.
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