This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I
thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf:

He wrote,

"In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good
condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run
a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in
order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets?
Existing wiring is in very good shape."

Thanks.

On 10/08/2014 8:39 AM, TomR wrote:
This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I
thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf:

He wrote,

"In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good
condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run
a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in
order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets?
Existing wiring is in very good shape."

Yes

--

On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 9:39:45 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I

thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf:



He wrote,



"In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good

condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run

a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in

order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets?

Existing wiring is in very good shape."



Thanks.


*Article 250.130(C) in the National Electrical Code gives the options, but the short answer is yes.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

Tom,

As the others have said the answer is yes. But check to see if the outlet
boxes are grounded. You might get lucky.

Dave M.

"John G" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 9:39:45 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I
thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his
behalf:

He wrote,

"In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good
condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to
run
a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel,
in
order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets?
Existing wiring is in very good shape."

*Article 250.130(C) in the National Electrical Code gives the options, but
the short answer is yes.

Thanks John and all for your replies. I passed on the information. I had
also mentioned to him that depending on the location of the outlets, it may
be almost just as easy to run new NM wiring to the outlets as it would to
run separate ground wires to the same outlets. And, I mentioned the option
of replacing 2-prong outlets with 3-prong GFCI outlets, without running any
new ground wires etc., as long as the GFCI had a sticker that said "No
equipment ground"

As it turned out, the outlets in question were first floor outlets above an
open ceiling basement. So, he ended up having an electrician just run all
new NM wiring to those outlets on the first floor -- basically because the
electrician said that it would take almost the same amount of effort to do
that as it would to run separate ground wires.

On 10/08/2014 09:39 AM, TomR wrote:
This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I
thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf:

He wrote,

"In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good
condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run
a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in
order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets?
Existing wiring is in very good shape."

Thanks.




Regardless of electrical code, would you buy a house where some jackleg had done that?

"Hosan Pyped" wrote in message
news
On 10/08/2014 09:39 AM, TomR wrote:
This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I
thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his
behalf:

He wrote,

"In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good
condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to
run
a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel,
in
order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets?
Existing wiring is in very good shape."

Thanks.




Regardless of electrical code, would you buy a house where some jackleg
had done that?

what is the difference? a wire is a wire.

In ,
typed:
On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 11:31:22 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

"John G" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 9:39:45 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know
and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some
feedback on his behalf:

He wrote,

"In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in
good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current
electrical code) to run
a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the
panel, in
order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong
outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape."

*Article 250.130(C) in the National Electrical Code gives the
options, but the short answer is yes.

Thanks John and all for your replies. I passed on the information.
I had also mentioned to him that depending on the location of the
outlets, it may be almost just as easy to run new NM wiring to the
outlets as it would to run separate ground wires to the same
outlets. And, I mentioned the option of replacing 2-prong outlets
with 3-prong GFCI outlets, without running any new ground wires
etc., as long as the GFCI had a sticker that said "No equipment
ground"

As it turned out, the outlets in question were first floor outlets
above an open ceiling basement. So, he ended up having an
electrician just run all new NM wiring to those outlets on the first
floor -- basically because the electrician said that it would take
almost the same amount of effort to do that as it would to run
separate ground wires.

That is pretty much true and even considering the cost of the wire, it
is the labor that will be the expensive part.

As another poster said, you really need to verify that there is not a
ground in the existing cable. There was a period of time in the 60s
when you were required to ground the boxes but you didn't need 3 prong
outlets. The grounded Romex was available in the 50s. The house I grew
up in, built in 53, had 2 prong outlets and 3 wire Romex. We
retrofitted the 3 prong outlets, pigtailing from the box. These days
it is much easier with self grounding receptacle.

Thanks. That's an interesting point, especially since the person who
originally had the question stated that the existing wiring was in good
shape. That does make me think that maybe it was the kind of wiring that
included a ground wire to metal outlet boxes. But, since he said that he
had an electrician rewire the boxes (I think he meant run new wire to the
boxes) instead of just running new ground wires, I am assuming that the
electrician would have noticed if the metal boxes were already grounded. Of
course, I don't know for sure, but that's my guess.

"TomR" wrote in message
...
In ,
typed:
On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 11:31:22 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

"John G" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 9:39:45 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know
and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some
feedback on his behalf:

He wrote,

"In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in
good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current
electrical code) to run
a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the
panel, in
order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong
outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape."

*Article 250.130(C) in the National Electrical Code gives the
options, but the short answer is yes.

Thanks John and all for your replies. I passed on the information.
I had also mentioned to him that depending on the location of the
outlets, it may be almost just as easy to run new NM wiring to the
outlets as it would to run separate ground wires to the same
outlets. And, I mentioned the option of replacing 2-prong outlets
with 3-prong GFCI outlets, without running any new ground wires
etc., as long as the GFCI had a sticker that said "No equipment
ground"

As it turned out, the outlets in question were first floor outlets
above an open ceiling basement. So, he ended up having an
electrician just run all new NM wiring to those outlets on the first
floor -- basically because the electrician said that it would take
almost the same amount of effort to do that as it would to run
separate ground wires.

That is pretty much true and even considering the cost of the wire, it
is the labor that will be the expensive part.

As another poster said, you really need to verify that there is not a
ground in the existing cable. There was a period of time in the 60s
when you were required to ground the boxes but you didn't need 3 prong
outlets. The grounded Romex was available in the 50s. The house I grew
up in, built in 53, had 2 prong outlets and 3 wire Romex. We
retrofitted the 3 prong outlets, pigtailing from the box. These days
it is much easier with self grounding receptacle.

Thanks. That's an interesting point, especially since the person who
originally had the question stated that the existing wiring was in good
shape. That does make me think that maybe it was the kind of wiring that
included a ground wire to metal outlet boxes. But, since he said that he
had an electrician rewire the boxes (I think he meant run new wire to the
boxes) instead of just running new ground wires, I am assuming that the
electrician would have noticed if the metal boxes were already grounded.
Of course, I don't know for sure, but that's my guess.

or he may have noticed, said nothing, and replaced the wire anyway.

"Pico Rico" wrote in message
...

"Hosan Pyped" wrote in message
news

Regardless of electrical code, would you buy a house where some
jackleg had done that?

what is the difference? a wire is a wire.

If I saw a separate wire pulled to an outlet box I'd be uneasy about where
it went and whether it really tied into the proper place. (In fact I have
seen that and I was uneasy because some kid did it in my old house and then
put up two different ceilings that made it very hard to trace back. In that
case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a clamp on a cold
water pipe. While the outlet appeared koshed with an outlet tested, a
replumbing job with plastic pipe could have ended up with an open ground.)

I'm with Pyped and several other posters who advised that running new NM was
the was to go.

I'd bet a competent home inspector would red flag a ground wire going to
places unknown, especially if it ran under sheetrock or stapled ceiling
tiles or was in some other way untraceable visually.

To be sure it was tied into the panel you'd have to hire an electrican to
trace it with a fox and hound. I am surprised the NEC allows a separate
ground to be run outside the main cable sheath or conduit. If it runs
somewhere other than along the main cable or conduit, the chance of someone
disconnecting it at some future time because it seemed unrelated to the
110VAC wiring is another risk.

GFCIs or new NM would certainly be the preferred way to do things, and I'd
rate those solutions as two or three times as good as a new ground wire,
especially if it didn't at least run along the old wire so that it was
obvious it was related to that old, ungrounded cable.

--
Bobby G.

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
"Pico Rico" wrote in message
...

"Hosan Pyped" wrote in message
news

Regardless of electrical code, would you buy a house where some
jackleg had done that?

what is the difference? a wire is a wire.

If I saw a separate wire pulled to an outlet box I'd be uneasy about where
it went and whether it really tied into the proper place. (In fact I have
seen that and I was uneasy because some kid did it in my old house and
then
put up two different ceilings that made it very hard to trace back. In
that
case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a clamp on a
cold
water pipe. While the outlet appeared koshed with an outlet tested, a
replumbing job with plastic pipe could have ended up with an open ground.)

I'm with Pyped and several other posters who advised that running new NM
was
the was to go.

I'd bet a competent home inspector would red flag a ground wire going to
places unknown, especially if it ran under sheetrock or stapled ceiling
tiles or was in some other way untraceable visually.

To be sure it was tied into the panel you'd have to hire an electrican to
trace it with a fox and hound. I am surprised the NEC allows a separate
ground to be run outside the main cable sheath or conduit. If it runs
somewhere other than along the main cable or conduit, the chance of
someone
disconnecting it at some future time because it seemed unrelated to the
110VAC wiring is another risk.

GFCIs or new NM would certainly be the preferred way to do things, and I'd
rate those solutions as two or three times as good as a new ground wire,
especially if it didn't at least run along the old wire so that it was
obvious it was related to that old, ungrounded cable.


Well, that's a good explanation. My initial thinking is that it would be
placed along the entire run back to the panel. But, that is how **I** would
do it.

On Friday, October 10, 2014 11:31:22 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
"John G" wrote in message

...

On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 9:39:45 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:

This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I

thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his

behalf:



He wrote,



"In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good

condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to

run

a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel,

in

order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets?

Existing wiring is in very good shape."



*Article 250.130(C) in the National Electrical Code gives the options, but

the short answer is yes.



Thanks John and all for your replies. I passed on the information. I had

also mentioned to him that depending on the location of the outlets, it may

be almost just as easy to run new NM wiring to the outlets as it would to

run separate ground wires to the same outlets. And, I mentioned the option

of replacing 2-prong outlets with 3-prong GFCI outlets, without running any

new ground wires etc., as long as the GFCI had a sticker that said "No

equipment ground"



As it turned out, the outlets in question were first floor outlets above an

open ceiling basement. So, he ended up having an electrician just run all

new NM wiring to those outlets on the first floor -- basically because the

electrician said that it would take almost the same amount of effort to do

that as it would to run separate ground wires.

In that situation I would agree, that's the right way to do it. The only reason to run the separate wires and/or use GFCIs is if replacing the cables is prohibitively difficult.

nate

On 10/11/2014 9:21 AM, N8N wrote:
On Friday, October 10, 2014 11:31:22 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
As it turned out, the outlets in question were first floor outlets above an
open ceiling basement. So, he ended up having an electrician just run all
new NM wiring to those outlets on the first floor -- basically because the
electrician said that it would take almost the same amount of effort to do
that as it would to run separate ground wires.

In that situation I would agree, that's the right
way to do it. The only reason to run the separate
wires and/or use GFCIs is if replacing the cables
is prohibitively difficult.

nate


It sure looks like an easy decision. I'd go with new
Romex, and sockets. Might even go with new breakers,
while you have the panel box open.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote in message
wrote:

In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a
clamp on a cold water pipe.

Until the 70s that was legal.

But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire went off
to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current leakage
apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it was clamped to the
waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away behind a
stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a hell of a mess. I would
not even had known about it until I took the ceiling down (revealing all
sorts of other nasty surprises). I am sure the previous owner installed
that stapled up ceiling to keep those sorts of issues from the eyes of a
good home inspector.

It was also far enough away from the service entrance that a replacement of
a section of copper with plastic where it entered the house would have
broken the connection to ground.

In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and why
such connections should be removed and done according to modern rules
whenever they are discovered even if they are still grandfathered.

As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot.

--
Bobby G.

On Saturday, October 11, 2014 10:00:19 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message

wrote:



In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a

clamp on a cold water pipe.



Until the 70s that was legal.



But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire went off

to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current leakage

apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it was clamped to the

waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away behind a

stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a hell of a mess. I would

not even had known about it until I took the ceiling down (revealing all

sorts of other nasty surprises). I am sure the previous owner installed

that stapled up ceiling to keep those sorts of issues from the eyes of a

good home inspector.



It was also far enough away from the service entrance that a replacement of

a section of copper with plastic where it entered the house would have

broken the connection to ground.



In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and why

such connections should be removed and done according to modern rules

whenever they are discovered even if they are still grandfathered.



As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot.



--

Bobby G.

*Actually the 2014 code does still permit the connection to the waterpipe. Article 250.130(C)(1) states that is is permitted "At any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50". The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system. The water meter and water heater bonding jumpers would have to be in place and the clamp would need to be approved for the type of metal piping.

That is what I think happened in your case. The disimilar metals of the ground clamp (Brass) attached to a steel pipe acted as a battery. Just like a water heater. The clamp should not have been buried in a finished ceiling. The ground wire should have been run over to the water meter location where it would have been accessible and could have been clamped to the water pipe or the grounding electrode conductor.

the 2 wires ungrounded frequently are k&t......

BEST TO REPLACE ALL k&t for lots of excellent reasons.

On Saturday, October 11, 2014 1:42:27 PM UTC-4, John G wrote:
On Saturday, October 11, 2014 10:00:19 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:

wrote in message



wrote:







In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a



clamp on a cold water pipe.







Until the 70s that was legal.







But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire went off



to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current leakage



apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it was clamped to the



waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away behind a



stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a hell of a mess. I would



not even had known about it until I took the ceiling down (revealing all



sorts of other nasty surprises). I am sure the previous owner installed



that stapled up ceiling to keep those sorts of issues from the eyes of a



good home inspector.







It was also far enough away from the service entrance that a replacement of



a section of copper with plastic where it entered the house would have



broken the connection to ground.







In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and why



such connections should be removed and done according to modern rules



whenever they are discovered even if they are still grandfathered.







As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot.







--



Bobby G.



*Actually the 2014 code does still permit the connection to the waterpipe.. Article 250.130(C)(1) states that is is permitted "At any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50". The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system. The water meter and water heater bonding jumpers would have to be in place and the clamp would need to be approved for the type of metal piping.



That is what I think happened in your case. The disimilar metals of the ground clamp (Brass) attached to a steel pipe acted as a battery. Just like a water heater. The clamp should not have been buried in a finished ceiling. The ground wire should have been run over to the water meter location where it would have been accessible and could have been clamped to the water pipe or the grounding electrode conductor.

My understanding is that the water pipe is NOT considered part of the grounding electrode system, only something that needs to be bonded *to* the grounding electrode system, so relying on a metal pipe for a ground for a previously ungrounded receptacle is no longer allowed, as others have already stated.

nate

On Saturday, October 11, 2014 2:21:45 PM UTC-4, N8N wrote:
On Saturday, October 11, 2014 1:42:27 PM UTC-4, John G wrote:

On Saturday, October 11, 2014 10:00:19 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:



wrote in message







wrote:















In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a







clamp on a cold water pipe.















Until the 70s that was legal.















But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire went off







to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current leakage







apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it was clamped to the







waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away behind a







stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a hell of a mess. I would







not even had known about it until I took the ceiling down (revealing all







sorts of other nasty surprises). I am sure the previous owner installed







that stapled up ceiling to keep those sorts of issues from the eyes of a







good home inspector.















It was also far enough away from the service entrance that a replacement of







a section of copper with plastic where it entered the house would have







broken the connection to ground.















In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and why







such connections should be removed and done according to modern rules







whenever they are discovered even if they are still grandfathered.















As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot.















--







Bobby G.







*Actually the 2014 code does still permit the connection to the waterpipe. Article 250.130(C)(1) states that is is permitted "At any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50". The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system. The water meter and water heater bonding jumpers would have to be in place and the clamp would need to be approved for the type of metal piping.







That is what I think happened in your case. The disimilar metals of the ground clamp (Brass) attached to a steel pipe acted as a battery. Just like a water heater. The clamp should not have been buried in a finished ceiling. The ground wire should have been run over to the water meter location where it would have been accessible and could have been clamped to the water pipe or the grounding electrode conductor.



My understanding is that the water pipe is NOT considered part of the grounding electrode system, only something that needs to be bonded *to* the grounding electrode system, so relying on a metal pipe for a ground for a previously ungrounded receptacle is no longer allowed, as others have already stated.



nate

*Go back to your code book Nate and read the sections that I posted.

On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 10:00:19 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message
wrote:

In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a
clamp on a cold water pipe.

Until the 70s that was legal.

But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire went off
to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current leakage
apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it was clamped to the
waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away behind a
stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a hell of a mess. I would
not even had known about it until I took the ceiling down (revealing all
sorts of other nasty surprises). I am sure the previous owner installed
that stapled up ceiling to keep those sorts of issues from the eyes of a
good home inspector.
My bet is the ceiling was installed LONG before home inspectors became
in vogue.

It was also far enough away from the service entrance that a replacement of
a section of copper with plastic where it entered the house would have
broken the connection to ground.
Ant it was likely done long before plastic pipe was an approved
option.

In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and why
such connections should be removed and done according to modern rules
whenever they are discovered even if they are still grandfathered.

As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot.
Except the upgrade was likely done either during or before the
seventies. - so not ENTIRELY a moot point. It was "standard practice"
and "approved" when it was done.
Not to say it should not be redone today.

On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 10:42:27 -0700 (PDT), John G
wrote:

On Saturday, October 11, 2014 10:00:19 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message

wrote:



In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a

clamp on a cold water pipe.



Until the 70s that was legal.



But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire went off

to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current leakage

apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it was clamped to the

waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away behind a

stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a hell of a mess. I would

not even had known about it until I took the ceiling down (revealing all

sorts of other nasty surprises). I am sure the previous owner installed

that stapled up ceiling to keep those sorts of issues from the eyes of a

good home inspector.



It was also far enough away from the service entrance that a replacement of

a section of copper with plastic where it entered the house would have

broken the connection to ground.



In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and why

such connections should be removed and done according to modern rules

whenever they are discovered even if they are still grandfathered.



As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot.



--

Bobby G.

*Actually the 2014 code does still permit the connection to the waterpipe. Article 250.130(C)(1) states that is is permitted "At any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50". The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system. The water meter and water heater bonding jumpers would have to be in place and the clamp would need to be approved for the type of metal piping.

That is what I think happened in your case. The disimilar metals of the ground clamp (Brass) attached to a steel pipe acted as a battery. Just like a water heater. The clamp should not have been buried in a finished ceiling. The ground wire should have been run over to the water meter location where it would have been accessible and could have been clamped to the water pipe or the grounding electrode conductor.
By code NO electrical connection is allowed to be "concealed". Ground
or otherwise, they must be "accessible" - and above a stapled ceiling
does not comply.

On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 11:01:55 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

the 2 wires ungrounded frequently are k&t......

BEST TO REPLACE ALL k&t for lots of excellent reasons.

But nothing in this tread points even REMOTELY to K&T wiring. It was
all "ungrounded romex"

On Saturday, October 11, 2014 3:15:51 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 11:01:55 -0700 (PDT), bob haller

wrote:



the 2 wires ungrounded frequently are k&t......



BEST TO REPLACE ALL k&t for lots of excellent reasons.



But nothing in this tread points even REMOTELY to K&T wiring. It was

all "ungrounded romex"

To be fair, if accessable, you could make a good argument for replacing that as well, because any ungrounded non-metallic cable likely does not have a 90C temperature rating as does currently produced NM-B.

If I saw any K&T I'd be tempted to draw up a plan for eventual complete replacement ASAP however... even if it was done perfectly when installed simple age makes one worry about the integrity of the insulation... nothing lasts forever.

nate

"N8N" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, October 11, 2014 3:15:51 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 11:01:55 -0700 (PDT), bob haller

wrote:



the 2 wires ungrounded frequently are k&t......



BEST TO REPLACE ALL k&t for lots of excellent reasons.



But nothing in this tread points even REMOTELY to K&T wiring. It was

all "ungrounded romex"

To be fair, if accessable, you could make a good argument for replacing
that as well, because any ungrounded non-metallic cable likely does not
have a 90C temperature rating as does currently produced NM-B.

If I saw any K&T I'd be tempted to draw up a plan for eventual complete
replacement ASAP however... even if it was done perfectly when installed
simple age makes one worry about the integrity of the insulation...
nothing lasts forever.

nate

Are you saying you would draw up your plan ASAP for eventual replacement?
Why the hurry for plans for eventual replacement? Why not eventually come
up with plans for the thereafter ASAP replacement? Or ASAP plans and ASAP
replacement? Or . . .

On 10/11/2014 2:46 PM, John G wrote:
On Saturday, October 11, 2014 2:21:45 PM UTC-4, N8N wrote:
*Actually the 2014 code does still permit the connection to the waterpipe. Article 250.130(C)(1) states that is is permitted "At any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50". The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system. The water meter and water heater bonding jumpers would have to be in place and the clamp would need to be approved for the type of metal piping.







That is what I think happened in your case. The disimilar metals of the ground clamp (Brass) attached to a steel pipe acted as a battery. Just like a water heater. The clamp should not have been buried in a finished ceiling. The ground wire should have been run over to the water meter location where it would have been accessible and could have been clamped to the water pipe or the grounding electrode conductor.



My understanding is that the water pipe is NOT considered part of the grounding electrode system, only something that needs to be bonded *to* the grounding electrode system, so relying on a metal pipe for a ground for a previously ungrounded receptacle is no longer allowed, as others have already stated.



nate

*Go back to your code book Nate and read the sections that I posted.


320:1 is a heck of a quoted text ratio. I'm
guessing that would burn up Danny's chain saw.

Sure does, mine.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Saturday, October 11, 2014 3:15:51 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 11:01:55 -0700 (PDT), bob haller

wrote:



the 2 wires ungrounded frequently are k&t......



BEST TO REPLACE ALL k&t for lots of excellent reasons.



But nothing in this tread points even REMOTELY to K&T wiring. It was

all "ungrounded romex"

Copy and paste of first post...

This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I
thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf:

He wrote,

"In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good
condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run
a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in
order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets?
Existing wiring is in very good shape."

Thanks


NOTE: around here the most common ungrounded outletsare because of K&T

"John G" wrote in message On Saturday,
October 11, 2014 10:00:19 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote
in message
wrote:

In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a
clamp on a cold water pipe.

Until the 70s that was legal.

But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire went off
to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current leakage
apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it lamped to the
waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away
behind a stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a mess.
In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and
why such connections should be removed and done according to modern
rules whenever they are discovered even if they are still grandfathered.

As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot.

*Actually the 2014 code does still permit the connection to the waterpipe.
Article 250.130(C)(1) states that is is permitted "At any accessible point
on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50". The waterpipe is
part of the grounding electrode system. The water meter and water heater
bonding jumpers would have to be in place and the clamp would need to be
approved for the type of metal piping.

I really don't want to dive into this can of worms again so I'll just note
all the potential failure points of using a clamping method from the code
fragment you cited and I'll bet many more live in 250.50:

The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system

IF and only if

1) The water meter is jumpered

2) the water heater is jumpered

3) any section of the pipe that's been replaced by pex or plastic is
jumpered

4) the right kind of clamp is used that won't cause galvanic corrosion

I would add that the wire from the outlet box is labeled as to where it's
going off to. When I checked the outlet and it failed, opening the box was
no help. When I tried to trace the cable back to the panel with a fox and
hound I couldn't tell where the ground wire was going because it was stapled
high inside the joist (badly stapled, I might add).

I removed one stapled ceiling tile (what a mess that was - so much so it
helped lead to taking the whole damn ceiling down) and saw the wire going
off at 90 degrees from the main cable. Tracing that proved to be impossible
with the fox and hound so that aided in the decision to pull more tiles
(this was a critical outlet for power tools in the workshop). The readings
on the tester were flakey. Sometimes it would be grounded, other times the
test lamp would flicker or extinguish completely, especially if there was a
load on the second outlet of the receptable in question.

It's just my opinion, obviously, but a wire that's used primarily as a
life-saving measure going off to parts unknown should have a "good"
provenance. It was obviously NOT done by an electrician because of how
poorly the wiring was connected - it was nicked and barely under the screw
and not stapled near the box. Another clue was that it was 10 feet FROM the
damn panel and done when the ceiling wasn't in place so a real sparky would
have just run a new wire and breaker (and they did for the window air
conditioner outlet that was clearly added on at some point).

Tote all the potential failure points up and it's clear using a pipe as a
ground has lots of potential risk - at least compared to pulling new wire.
I understand why it was grandfathered: I am sure the NEC weenies feel that
any form of grounding is better than no grounding at all.

Many of the outlets in the house were three-pronged but NOT grounded, FWIW,
another sign of a rank amateur. Still with the basement open it would have
been simple to do it right and after pulling the ceiling that's what I did.
Replaced all the old outlets that I found that had three prongs but no
actuall ground connection with new two pronged ones and ran all new circuits
to areas that were critical - along with GFCI's.

This was 1940's cloth covered wiring and I am sure oxidation of the
conductor along has slightly degraded its ampacity.

That is what I think happened in your case. The disimilar metals of the
ground clamp (Brass) attached to a steel pipe acted as a battery.

FWIW, it was a plated steel clamp on a copper pipe - same thing really.

Just like a water heater. The clamp should not have been buried in a
finished ceiling. The ground wire should have been run over to the water
meter location where it would have been accessible and could have been
clamped to the water pipe or the grounding electrode conductor.

I think you're 100% correct about how that happened. Obviously none of this
work was ever inspected - properly at least - and the only good thing about
all this jack-legging was I got to knock a few thousand off my offer after
doing a walkthrough of the house with my outlet tester. I recall the
comment "We had a lot of appliances that had three prongs so my son replaced
the old two prong outlets so we didn't have to use those adapters anymore."
The sounded proud that he could do it! I really don't think they understood
the ramifications of using 3 prong outlets on ungrounded circuits. Someone
did, eventually, which is why the green wire to the basement outlet
eventually appeared. I believe he had installed new shop lights that needed
a ground to operate properly.

The wiring in this house ran up to the attic and then down again like
octopus tentacles inside hard plaster walls so running a ground wire along
the original cables (or pulling new wire) just wouldn't be feasible. And
that's why I can understand the NEC rules about waterpipe clamps.

So I ran new 12/2 w/ground and GFCI's to the window AC's, the outside of the
house, the kitchen and the office and used dual skinny breakers to wire them
to the panel. For the most part, only very light loads are now running off
the old wiring. Much of it is CFL lighting, further reducing the risk of
overloading the old wires and in most cases, not needing a ground wire
anyway.

At first I was concerned that I had too many dual breakers, but the electric
consumption has dropped slightly each year as I retired plasma TV's for LED
TVs, 30 year old refrigerators for new high eff. ones, CFLs for tungsten
lighting, etc. So it's clear that even though I have more circuits than
before, the total load on the panel is actually lower than it's been
historically.

I'll save it for another thread but my neighbor's electrician son solved a
very interesting puzzle in which some of the lights in his mom's house went
off for several hours early in the AM and then came back on by themselves
without resetting any breakers or GFCI's. I couldn't diagnose it, and
neither could he until I told him that a single UPS's started chirping at
3AM, which I thought was low voltage but seemed to be battery failure., so I
got up and shut it off. No other UPSs beeped so I assumed it was a local
event until my neighbor told me about her basement tenant's lights going
out, too. When I restored power to the UPS and turned it back on the next
day, everything was fine and the battery tested out as good - I was about to
replace it just in case but it was less than a year old.

You've got good analytical skills, John. What do you think it was? (-:

--
Bobby G.

On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 14:52:25 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Saturday, October 11, 2014 3:15:51 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 11:01:55 -0700 (PDT), bob haller

wrote:



the 2 wires ungrounded frequently are k&t......



BEST TO REPLACE ALL k&t for lots of excellent reasons.



But nothing in this tread points even REMOTELY to K&T wiring. It was

all "ungrounded romex"

Copy and paste of first post...

This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I
thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf:

He wrote,

"In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good
condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run
a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in
order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets?
Existing wiring is in very good shape."

Thanks


NOTE: around here the most common ungrounded outletsare because of K&T
The possibility of the boxes being grounded and 2 prong receptacles
installed was also raised That rules out K&T

wrote in message
wrote:

*Go back to your code book Nate and read the sections that I posted.

250.52(A)(1) says
Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the
point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the
grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect
electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.

I assume that's because once you start moving further and further away from
to POE the more likely bad things are to happen as in unbridged plastic
sections of pipe used as repairs to copper pipe. Makes sense to me!

Thanks for the clarification. I suspect that eventually they'll even
change that requirement as more and more plastic pipe is used inside and
outside of the house. Maybe it's a bias of years of looking at "spaghetti
code" programming with "go tos" and no "come froms" that makes me allergic
to wires not going to a central location. (-:

--
Bobby G.

On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 21:26:22 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"John G" wrote in message On Saturday,
October 11, 2014 10:00:19 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote
in message
wrote:

In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a
clamp on a cold water pipe.

Until the 70s that was legal.

But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire went off
to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current leakage
apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it lamped to the
waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away
behind a stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a mess.
In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and
why such connections should be removed and done according to modern
rules whenever they are discovered even if they are still grandfathered.

As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot.

*Actually the 2014 code does still permit the connection to the waterpipe.
Article 250.130(C)(1) states that is is permitted "At any accessible point
on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50". The waterpipe is
part of the grounding electrode system. The water meter and water heater
bonding jumpers would have to be in place and the clamp would need to be
approved for the type of metal piping.

I really don't want to dive into this can of worms again so I'll just note
all the potential failure points of using a clamping method from the code
fragment you cited and I'll bet many more live in 250.50:

The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system

IF and only if

1) The water meter is jumpered

2) the water heater is jumpered

3) any section of the pipe that's been replaced by pex or plastic is
jumpered

4) the right kind of clamp is used that won't cause galvanic corrosion

I would add that the wire from the outlet box is labeled as to where it's
going off to. When I checked the outlet and it failed, opening the box was
no help. When I tried to trace the cable back to the panel with a fox and
hound I couldn't tell where the ground wire was going because it was stapled
high inside the joist (badly stapled, I might add).

I removed one stapled ceiling tile (what a mess that was - so much so it
helped lead to taking the whole damn ceiling down) and saw the wire going
off at 90 degrees from the main cable. Tracing that proved to be impossible
with the fox and hound so that aided in the decision to pull more tiles
(this was a critical outlet for power tools in the workshop). The readings
on the tester were flakey. Sometimes it would be grounded, other times the
test lamp would flicker or extinguish completely, especially if there was a
load on the second outlet of the receptable in question.

It's just my opinion, obviously, but a wire that's used primarily as a
life-saving measure going off to parts unknown should have a "good"
provenance. It was obviously NOT done by an electrician because of how
poorly the wiring was connected - it was nicked and barely under the screw
and not stapled near the box. Another clue was that it was 10 feet FROM the
damn panel and done when the ceiling wasn't in place so a real sparky would
have just run a new wire and breaker (and they did for the window air
conditioner outlet that was clearly added on at some point).

Tote all the potential failure points up and it's clear using a pipe as a
ground has lots of potential risk - at least compared to pulling new wire.
I understand why it was grandfathered: I am sure the NEC weenies feel that
any form of grounding is better than no grounding at all.

Many of the outlets in the house were three-pronged but NOT grounded, FWIW,
another sign of a rank amateur. Still with the basement open it would have
been simple to do it right and after pulling the ceiling that's what I did.
Replaced all the old outlets that I found that had three prongs but no
actuall ground connection with new two pronged ones and ran all new circuits
to areas that were critical - along with GFCI's.

This was 1940's cloth covered wiring and I am sure oxidation of the
conductor along has slightly degraded its ampacity.

That is what I think happened in your case. The disimilar metals of the
ground clamp (Brass) attached to a steel pipe acted as a battery.

FWIW, it was a plated steel clamp on a copper pipe - same thing really.

Just like a water heater. The clamp should not have been buried in a
finished ceiling. The ground wire should have been run over to the water
meter location where it would have been accessible and could have been
clamped to the water pipe or the grounding electrode conductor.

I think you're 100% correct about how that happened. Obviously none of this
work was ever inspected - properly at least - and the only good thing about
all this jack-legging was I got to knock a few thousand off my offer after
doing a walkthrough of the house with my outlet tester. I recall the
comment "We had a lot of appliances that had three prongs so my son replaced
the old two prong outlets so we didn't have to use those adapters anymore."
The sounded proud that he could do it! I really don't think they understood
the ramifications of using 3 prong outlets on ungrounded circuits. Someone
did, eventually, which is why the green wire to the basement outlet
eventually appeared. I believe he had installed new shop lights that needed
a ground to operate properly.

The wiring in this house ran up to the attic and then down again like
octopus tentacles inside hard plaster walls so running a ground wire along
the original cables (or pulling new wire) just wouldn't be feasible. And
that's why I can understand the NEC rules about waterpipe clamps.

So I ran new 12/2 w/ground and GFCI's to the window AC's, the outside of the
house, the kitchen and the office and used dual skinny breakers to wire them
to the panel. For the most part, only very light loads are now running off
the old wiring. Much of it is CFL lighting, further reducing the risk of
overloading the old wires and in most cases, not needing a ground wire
anyway.

At first I was concerned that I had too many dual breakers, but the electric
consumption has dropped slightly each year as I retired plasma TV's for LED
TVs, 30 year old refrigerators for new high eff. ones, CFLs for tungsten
lighting, etc. So it's clear that even though I have more circuits than
before, the total load on the panel is actually lower than it's been
historically.

I'll save it for another thread but my neighbor's electrician son solved a
very interesting puzzle in which some of the lights in his mom's house went
off for several hours early in the AM and then came back on by themselves
without resetting any breakers or GFCI's. I couldn't diagnose it, and
neither could he until I told him that a single UPS's started chirping at
3AM, which I thought was low voltage but seemed to be battery failure., so I
got up and shut it off. No other UPSs beeped so I assumed it was a local
event until my neighbor told me about her basement tenant's lights going
out, too. When I restored power to the UPS and turned it back on the next
day, everything was fine and the battery tested out as good - I was about to
replace it just in case but it was less than a year old.

You've got good analytical skills, John. What do you think it was? (-:
I'm waiting to hear this one!! I'll bet it was something so simple
we'll all say "duh" and whack out foreheads when we hear it.

In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a

clamp on a cold water pipe.



Until the 70s that was legal.



But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire went off

to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current leakage

apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it lamped to the

waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away

behind a stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a mess.

In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and

why such connections should be removed and done according to modern

rules whenever they are discovered even if they are still grandfathered..



As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot.



*Actually the 2014 code does still permit the connection to the waterpipe.

Article 250.130(C)(1) states that is is permitted "At any accessible point

on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50". The waterpipe is

part of the grounding electrode system. The water meter and water heater

bonding jumpers would have to be in place and the clamp would need to be

approved for the type of metal piping.



I really don't want to dive into this can of worms again so I'll just note

all the potential failure points of using a clamping method from the code

fragment you cited and I'll bet many more live in 250.50:



The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system



IF and only if



1) The water meter is jumpered



2) the water heater is jumpered



3) any section of the pipe that's been replaced by pex or plastic is

jumpered



4) the right kind of clamp is used that won't cause galvanic corrosion



I would add that the wire from the outlet box is labeled as to where it's

going off to. When I checked the outlet and it failed, opening the box was

no help. When I tried to trace the cable back to the panel with a fox and

hound I couldn't tell where the ground wire was going because it was stapled

high inside the joist (badly stapled, I might add).



I removed one stapled ceiling tile (what a mess that was - so much so it

helped lead to taking the whole damn ceiling down) and saw the wire going

off at 90 degrees from the main cable. Tracing that proved to be impossible

with the fox and hound so that aided in the decision to pull more tiles

(this was a critical outlet for power tools in the workshop). The readings

on the tester were flakey. Sometimes it would be grounded, other times the

test lamp would flicker or extinguish completely, especially if there was a

load on the second outlet of the receptable in question.



It's just my opinion, obviously, but a wire that's used primarily as a

life-saving measure going off to parts unknown should have a "good"

provenance. It was obviously NOT done by an electrician because of how

poorly the wiring was connected - it was nicked and barely under the screw

and not stapled near the box. Another clue was that it was 10 feet FROM the

damn panel and done when the ceiling wasn't in place so a real sparky would

have just run a new wire and breaker (and they did for the window air

conditioner outlet that was clearly added on at some point).



Tote all the potential failure points up and it's clear using a pipe as a

ground has lots of potential risk - at least compared to pulling new wire..

I understand why it was grandfathered: I am sure the NEC weenies feel that

any form of grounding is better than no grounding at all.



Many of the outlets in the house were three-pronged but NOT grounded, FWIW,

another sign of a rank amateur. Still with the basement open it would have

been simple to do it right and after pulling the ceiling that's what I did.

Replaced all the old outlets that I found that had three prongs but no

actuall ground connection with new two pronged ones and ran all new circuits

to areas that were critical - along with GFCI's.



This was 1940's cloth covered wiring and I am sure oxidation of the

conductor along has slightly degraded its ampacity.



That is what I think happened in your case. The disimilar metals of the

ground clamp (Brass) attached to a steel pipe acted as a battery.



FWIW, it was a plated steel clamp on a copper pipe - same thing really.



Just like a water heater. The clamp should not have been buried in a

finished ceiling. The ground wire should have been run over to the water

meter location where it would have been accessible and could have been

clamped to the water pipe or the grounding electrode conductor.



I think you're 100% correct about how that happened. Obviously none of this

work was ever inspected - properly at least - and the only good thing about

all this jack-legging was I got to knock a few thousand off my offer after

doing a walkthrough of the house with my outlet tester. I recall the

comment "We had a lot of appliances that had three prongs so my son replaced

the old two prong outlets so we didn't have to use those adapters anymore.."

The sounded proud that he could do it! I really don't think they understood

the ramifications of using 3 prong outlets on ungrounded circuits. Someone

did, eventually, which is why the green wire to the basement outlet

eventually appeared. I believe he had installed new shop lights that needed

a ground to operate properly.



The wiring in this house ran up to the attic and then down again like

octopus tentacles inside hard plaster walls so running a ground wire along

the original cables (or pulling new wire) just wouldn't be feasible. And

that's why I can understand the NEC rules about waterpipe clamps.



So I ran new 12/2 w/ground and GFCI's to the window AC's, the outside of the

house, the kitchen and the office and used dual skinny breakers to wire them

to the panel. For the most part, only very light loads are now running off

the old wiring. Much of it is CFL lighting, further reducing the risk of

overloading the old wires and in most cases, not needing a ground wire

anyway.



At first I was concerned that I had too many dual breakers, but the electric

consumption has dropped slightly each year as I retired plasma TV's for LED

TVs, 30 year old refrigerators for new high eff. ones, CFLs for tungsten

lighting, etc. So it's clear that even though I have more circuits than

before, the total load on the panel is actually lower than it's been

historically.



I'll save it for another thread but my neighbor's electrician son solved a

very interesting puzzle in which some of the lights in his mom's house went

off for several hours early in the AM and then came back on by themselves

without resetting any breakers or GFCI's. I couldn't diagnose it, and

neither could he until I told him that a single UPS's started chirping at

3AM, which I thought was low voltage but seemed to be battery failure., so I

got up and shut it off. No other UPSs beeped so I assumed it was a local

event until my neighbor told me about her basement tenant's lights going

out, too. When I restored power to the UPS and turned it back on the next

day, everything was fine and the battery tested out as good - I was about to

replace it just in case but it was less than a year old.



You've got good analytical skills, John. What do you think it was? (-:

*I don't have a simple answer for this. Things that I have found when troubleshooting that particular problem a
Loose connection on the circuit breaker.
Loose neutral connection on the neutral terminal bar in the circuit breaker panel.
A bad circuit breaker.
Loose connections on one or more electrical outlets on the circuit.
A loose splice under a wire connector (This is common with DIYers who don't twist wires together before twisting the connector on).
Loose connection on the main circuit breaker or the main feed lugs.
A corroded neutral wire that had a few strands broken as a result of long term water damage. (Water getting into the SE cable and traveling down into the meter socket and eventually the main panel).
Loose connections in the meter socket.
Loose connections at the weatherhead.
Loose connections at the power company transformer.
A damaged overhead service wire that has been rubbing against the house or trees whenever the wind blows.
A damaged underground sevice feeder between the meter and transformer.

This past week I got a call from a couple living in a condo who have been having problems with their cable box going out briefly and then coming back on. I was there a year ago for the same problem on one of their cable boxes. This time it was all three boxes. They had the cable compnay come out so many times to rewire and replace that they will no longer come out for this problem which they believe is with the electrical wiring. Last year I pigtailed and replaced 2 outlets and never heard back from the couple until this week. Last year they reported that nothing else was occurring such as flickering lights. This year it was the same, no flickering lights, but they also admitted that they did not use the lights on these circuits too often. I found the three cable boxes to be on two circuits. I checked the voltage at the main panel and it was consistent on both phases and to ground as well as to neutral. I replaced the two breakers and opened up every switch and outlet on these circuits. The outlets were a builders cheapo model with no screw terminals, only the back stab holes. Every outlet that I removed from the wall had the wires come out of the back stab with little effort. On one particular wall receptacle with six wires attached, one of the neutral wires had only about a quarter inch of copper showing which made me think that it was not making good contact when it was inserted into the back of the original outlet. I pigtailed and replaced every outlet on the two circuits. I tightened every connection in the main panel. The only thing that I could not do was check the main breaker because it was in a 6 gang meter stack that the power company had locked up. I told the couple to call me if the problem persisted and I would get the power company to unlock the meters.

A tool that I have found to be very helpful is the Amprobe Inspector: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...7Y2DQQOIYSDVF7
On the above job it told me that I was on the right track by pigtailing when I compared the before and after readings.
Another tool to use is an ammeter to measure the current on the grounding electrode conductor at the water pipe and the ground rod. If there is current flowing on the grounding electrode conductor, that tells you that there is a problem with the neutral conductor.

I should add that I was quite familar with the condo complex above as I have been doing work for the association for several years. In that time I have found many problems that go back to the original installer. One that stands out is a woman who had a new furnace installed in her condo. She kept having problems with it and the service technician and her own electrician told her it was an electrical service problem which was the responsibility of the association. I measured 30 volts between ground and neutral at her main panel. I go outside to have a look at the meter stack and noticed a house panel for the outside lights. I took the cover off of the house panel and saw a black wire on one main lug, a white wire on the other main lug and a bare wire on the neutral bar. The house panel only had one circuit breaker in it. I removed the stack cover and saw the black and white on the main breaker and the bare on the ground terminal. I took the white wire off the breaker and put it on the neutral bar. In the house panel I took the white wire off the main lug and put it on the neutral bar. I installed a separate ground bar and attached the bare wire to that as well as the grounding conductor for the one circuit. The woman's furnace is now working properly.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

I'll save it for another thread but my neighbor's electrician son solved a

very interesting puzzle in which some of the lights in his mom's house went

off for several hours early in the AM and then came back on by themselves

without resetting any breakers or GFCI's. I couldn't diagnose it, and

neither could he until I told him that a single UPS's started chirping at

3AM, which I thought was low voltage but seemed to be battery failure., so I

got up and shut it off. No other UPSs beeped so I assumed it was a local

event until my neighbor told me about her basement tenant's lights going

out, too. When I restored power to the UPS and turned it back on the next

day, everything was fine and the battery tested out as good - I was about to

replace it just in case but it was less than a year old.



You've got good analytical skills, John. What do you think it was? (-:



--

Bobby G.

transformer failure where only oner side of the power failed.

that happended here and left me wondering for a couple hours. when I finally figured it out the power company replaced the neighborhood transormer

On Sunday, October 12, 2014 1:05:27 PM UTC-4, bob haller wrote:




I'll save it for another thread but my neighbor's electrician son solved a



very interesting puzzle in which some of the lights in his mom's house went



off for several hours early in the AM and then came back on by themselves



without resetting any breakers or GFCI's. I couldn't diagnose it, and



neither could he until I told him that a single UPS's started chirping at



3AM, which I thought was low voltage but seemed to be battery failure., so I



got up and shut it off. No other UPSs beeped so I assumed it was a local



event until my neighbor told me about her basement tenant's lights going



out, too. When I restored power to the UPS and turned it back on the next



day, everything was fine and the battery tested out as good - I was about to



replace it just in case but it was less than a year old.







You've got good analytical skills, John. What do you think it was? (-:







--



Bobby G.



transformer failure where only oner side of the power failed.



that happended here and left me wondering for a couple hours. when I finally figured it out the power company replaced the neighborhood transormer

My guess too... can be verified easily if you have a 240VAC receptacle anywhere to probe (in garage for welder, or laundry room for clothes dryer) one leg will still be hot but the other will be dead if he is correct. Or just take cover off breaker panel and measure two breakers adjacent to each other, they should be on opposite legs.

nate

"John G" wrote in message

I'll save it for another thread but my neighbor's electrician son solved a
very interesting puzzle in which some of the lights in his mom's house
went
off for several hours early in the AM and then came back on by themselves
without resetting any breakers or GFCI's. I couldn't diagnose it, and
neither could he until I told him that a single UPS's started chirping at
3AM, which I thought was low voltage but seemed to be battery failure., so
I
got up and shut it off. No other UPSs beeped so I assumed it was a local
event until my neighbor told me about her basement tenant's lights going
out, too. When I restored power to the UPS and turned it back on the next
day, everything was fine and the battery tested out as good - I was about
to
replace it just in case but it was less than a year old.

You've got good analytical skills, John. What do you think it was? (-:


Loose connections at the power company transformer.

Bingo. When we compared what circuits had failed it was clear they were all
on one phase. A neighbor who's on the "critical service" program called
them when his CPAP (breathing device for sleep apnea) failed and they sent
out a truck ASAP.

See, I told you that you had good troubleshooting skills. (-:

This past week I got a call from a couple living in a condo who have been
having problems with their cable box going out briefly and then coming back
on. I was there a year ago for the same problem on one of their cable
boxes. This time it was all three boxes. They had the cable company come
out so many times to rewire and replace that they will no longer come out
for this problem which they believe is with the electrical wiring. Last
year I pigtailed and replaced 2 outlets and never heard back from the couple
until this week. Last year they reported that nothing else was occurring
such as flickering lights. This year it was the same, no flickering lights,
but they also admitted that they did not use the lights on these circuits
too often. I found the three cable boxes to be on two circuits. I checked
the voltage at the main panel and it was consistent on both phases and to
ground as well as to neutral. I replaced the two breakers and opened up
every switch and outlet on these circuits. The outlets were a builders
cheapo model with no screw terminals, only the back stab holes. Every
outlet that I removed from the wall had the wires come out of the back stab
with little effort. On one particular wall receptacle with six wires
attached, one of the neutral wires had only about a quarter inch of copper
showing which made me think that it was not making good contact when it was
inserted into the back of the original outlet. I pigtailed and replaced
every outlet on the two circuits. I tightened every connection in the main
panel. The only thing that I could not do was check the main breaker
because it was in a 6 gang meter stack that the power company had locked up.
I told the couple to call me if the problem persisted and I would get the
power company to unlock the meters.

They call them "backstabs" because IMHO, that's exactly what they'll do to
you. I became a hero to my wife (when we were still dating many moons ago)
by fixing a garbage disposal that was about to be replaced after her dad,
her handyman friend and even an electrician could not diagnose the problem.
A faulty back stab on the control switch (which was on an outside wall where
it got cold enough for thermal contraction to make it loose) turned out to
be the culprit. The clue was it happened more in the winter than in the
summer. The switch's backstab clips still gripped the wire - a little - but
they were very easily pulled out of the holes, which doesn't happen in a
good (if there is such a thing) backstab connection - at least not when they
are new. Just moving the wires out of the backstab holes and under the
screw fixed it. I did spend a lot of time upside under the sink before
deciding the problem lay elsewhere. (-:

A tool that I have found to be very helpful is the Amprobe Inspector:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...7Y2DQQOIYSDVF7
On the above job it told me that I was on the right track by pigtailing when
I compared the before and after readings.

I recall seriously considering this tool before when I had a near fire from
a space heater plug that had become partially pulled out of the outlet. I
recall that it didn't detect arc faults and so I passed. Is that correct?
I seem to recall not many testers can detect potential arc fault situations
until they actually start arcing, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It would be very useful, it sounds, in detecting old wires that have lost
some of their current carrying capability over time.

I was pretty sure I had that problem with old, cloth covered wiring that had
always had an oxide skin whenever I stripped it, but instead of trying to
test them, I just ran new outlets and took all the loads over 5A off the old
outlets. Doesn't mean someone won't plug in a space heater in one of those
old circuits some day so it might be worth almost $300 to know in advance if
that's going to be a threat. As I recall, a load like that might not trip
the breaker but could cause old wire with reduced capacity to start a fire
in the walls.

Another tool to use is an ammeter to measure the current on the grounding
electrode conductor at the water pipe and the ground rod. If there is
current flowing on the grounding electrode conductor, that tells you that
there is a problem with the neutral conductor.

This weekend I went to reach for my auto-ranging Wavetek A20 tong meter and
discovered the alkaline button batteries had leaked so much they destroyed
the damn thing. We can put a man on the moon, but are still plagued by
leaky alkaline technology. I the future I will make sure I use either
silver oxide or lithium button batteries if they are available in the size I
need. Really cheesed me off - it was a great meter with tongs just the
right size to fit into my circuit breaker panel.

It was invaluable in redistributing the loads in the panel and helped
uncover a 20A kitchen breaker that was happily allowing 23A to pass without
tripping. Gonna try a Harbor Freight cheapy (God help me!) just because I
rarely use it now. What really peeves me is that the batteries that leaked
(two LR-43's) were NOT cheap cells - they were Maxell's.

I should add that I was quite familiar with the condo complex above as I
have been doing work for the association for several years. In that time I
have found many problems that go back to the original installer.

I don't doubt that. The house my then future wife lived in had plenty of
"cheapest you can find builder specials" in it from the outlets to the
appliances. Guaranteed to last just long enough for the builder to pull up
stakes and move on.

One that stands out is a woman who had a new furnace installed in her
condo. She kept having problems with it and the service technician and her
own electrician told her it was an electrical service problem which was the
responsibility of the association. I measured 30 volts between ground and
neutral at her main panel. I go outside to have a look at the meter stack
and noticed a house panel for the outside lights. I took the cover off of
the house panel and saw a black wire on one main lug, a white wire on the
other main lug and a bare wire on the neutral bar. The house panel only had
one circuit breaker in it. I removed the stack cover and saw the black and
white on the main breaker and the bare on the ground terminal. I took the
white wire off the breaker and put it on the neutral bar. In the house
panel I took the white wire off the main lug and put it on the neutral bar.
I installed a separate ground bar and attached the bare wire to that as well
as the grounding conductor for the one circuit. The woman's furnace is now
working properly.

Well, I was right about you having not just good but excellent problem
solving skills. Before I learned to do my own work, I would have X-10
related problems that needed a licensed electrician. It became obvious to
me that some electricians can run new circuits and install A/Cs, furnaces,
etc. but really didn't have good troubleshooting skills.

My neighbor's son (who I first met when he was six years old and who used to
wash my car and mow my lawn to earn spending money) started as a cable
puller for the local CATV company. His boss soon realized he had much more
potential than that and sent him to school to become an electrician on his
own dime, an investment that's paid back handsomely. When people say that
today's kids are no damn good I just smile and don't even bother telling
them that I know better. His father ran out on the family when he was an
infant but he never used that as an excuse for bad behavior like his sisters
did. Instead he took his father's place and was the man of the house by the
time he was twelve, doing whatever he could to bring money in and to help
his mom around the house.

Very interesting thread, John. I'll have questions about that Amprobe. If
it's helpful to you, it HAS to be useful to a DIY guy like me.

--
Bobby G.

OK. I give up. Where's the beef?

(-:

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 06:36:59 -0700 (PDT), John G
wrote:


In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to
a

clamp on a cold water pipe.



Until the 70s that was legal.



But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire
went off

to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current
leakage

apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it lamped to the

waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away

behind a stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a mess.

In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and

why such connections should be removed and done according to modern

rules whenever they are discovered even if they are still
grandfathered.



As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot.



*Actually the 2014 code does still permit the connection to the
waterpipe.

Article 250.130(C)(1) states that is is permitted "At any accessible
point

on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50". The
waterpipe is

part of the grounding electrode system. The water meter and water
heater

bonding jumpers would have to be in place and the clamp would need to
be

approved for the type of metal piping.



I really don't want to dive into this can of worms again so I'll just
note

all the potential failure points of using a clamping method from the
code

fragment you cited and I'll bet many more live in 250.50:



The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system



IF and only if



1) The water meter is jumpered



2) the water heater is jumpered



3) any section of the pipe that's been replaced by pex or plastic is

jumpered



4) the right kind of clamp is used that won't cause galvanic corrosion



I would add that the wire from the outlet box is labeled as to where
it's

going off to. When I checked the outlet and it failed, opening the box
was

no help. When I tried to trace the cable back to the panel with a fox
and

hound I couldn't tell where the ground wire was going because it was
stapled

high inside the joist (badly stapled, I might add).



I removed one stapled ceiling tile (what a mess that was - so much so
it

helped lead to taking the whole damn ceiling down) and saw the wire
going

off at 90 degrees from the main cable. Tracing that proved to be
impossible

with the fox and hound so that aided in the decision to pull more tiles

(this was a critical outlet for power tools in the workshop). The
readings

on the tester were flakey. Sometimes it would be grounded, other times
the

test lamp would flicker or extinguish completely, especially if there
was a

load on the second outlet of the receptable in question.



It's just my opinion, obviously, but a wire that's used primarily as a

life-saving measure going off to parts unknown should have a "good"

provenance. It was obviously NOT done by an electrician because of how

poorly the wiring was connected - it was nicked and barely under the
screw

and not stapled near the box. Another clue was that it was 10 feet
FROM the

damn panel and done when the ceiling wasn't in place so a real sparky
would

have just run a new wire and breaker (and they did for the window air

conditioner outlet that was clearly added on at some point).



Tote all the potential failure points up and it's clear using a pipe as
a

ground has lots of potential risk - at least compared to pulling new
wire.

I understand why it was grandfathered: I am sure the NEC weenies feel
that

any form of grounding is better than no grounding at all.



Many of the outlets in the house were three-pronged but NOT grounded,
FWIW,

another sign of a rank amateur. Still with the basement open it would
have

been simple to do it right and after pulling the ceiling that's what I
did.

Replaced all the old outlets that I found that had three prongs but no

actuall ground connection with new two pronged ones and ran all new
circuits

to areas that were critical - along with GFCI's.



This was 1940's cloth covered wiring and I am sure oxidation of the

conductor along has slightly degraded its ampacity.



That is what I think happened in your case. The disimilar metals of
the

ground clamp (Brass) attached to a steel pipe acted as a battery.



FWIW, it was a plated steel clamp on a copper pipe - same thing really.



Just like a water heater. The clamp should not have been buried in a

finished ceiling. The ground wire should have been run over to the
water

meter location where it would have been accessible and could have been

clamped to the water pipe or the grounding electrode conductor.



I think you're 100% correct about how that happened. Obviously none of
this

work was ever inspected - properly at least - and the only good thing
about

all this jack-legging was I got to knock a few thousand off my offer
after

doing a walkthrough of the house with my outlet tester. I recall the

comment "We had a lot of appliances that had three prongs so my son
replaced

the old two prong outlets so we didn't have to use those adapters
anymore."

The sounded proud that he could do it! I really don't think they
understood

the ramifications of using 3 prong outlets on ungrounded circuits.
Someone

did, eventually, which is why the green wire to the basement outlet

eventually appeared. I believe he had installed new shop lights that
needed

a ground to operate properly.



The wiring in this house ran up to the attic and then down again like

octopus tentacles inside hard plaster walls so running a ground wire
along

the original cables (or pulling new wire) just wouldn't be feasible.
And

that's why I can understand the NEC rules about waterpipe clamps.



So I ran new 12/2 w/ground and GFCI's to the window AC's, the outside
of the

house, the kitchen and the office and used dual skinny breakers to wire
them

to the panel. For the most part, only very light loads are now running
off

the old wiring. Much of it is CFL lighting, further reducing the risk
of

overloading the old wires and in most cases, not needing a ground wire

anyway.



At first I was concerned that I had too many dual breakers, but the
electric

consumption has dropped slightly each year as I retired plasma TV's for
LED

TVs, 30 year old refrigerators for new high eff. ones, CFLs for
tungsten

lighting, etc. So it's clear that even though I have more circuits
than

before, the total load on the panel is actually lower than it's been

historically.



I'll save it for another thread but my neighbor's electrician son
solved a

very interesting puzzle in which some of the lights in his mom's house
went

off for several hours early in the AM and then came back on by
themselves

without resetting any breakers or GFCI's. I couldn't diagnose it, and

neither could he until I told him that a single UPS's started chirping
at

3AM, which I thought was low voltage but seemed to be battery failure.,
so I

got up and shut it off. No other UPSs beeped so I assumed it was a
local

event until my neighbor told me about her basement tenant's lights
going

out, too. When I restored power to the UPS and turned it back on the
next

day, everything was fine and the battery tested out as good - I was
about to

replace it just in case but it was less than a year old.



You've got good analytical skills, John. What do you think it was?
(-:

*I don't have a simple answer for this. Things that I have found when
troubleshooting that particular problem a
Loose connection on the circuit breaker.
Loose neutral connection on the neutral terminal bar in the circuit
breaker panel.
A bad circuit breaker.
Loose connections on one or more electrical outlets on the circuit.
A loose splice under a wire connector (This is common with DIYers who
don't twist wires together before twisting the connector on).
Loose connection on the main circuit breaker or the main feed lugs.
A corroded neutral wire that had a few strands broken as a result of long
term water damage. (Water getting into the SE cable and traveling down into
the meter socket and eventually the main panel).
Loose connections in the meter socket.
Loose connections at the weatherhead.
Loose connections at the power company transformer.
A damaged overhead service wire that has been rubbing against the house
or trees whenever the wind blows.
A damaged underground sevice feeder between the meter and transformer.

This past week I got a call from a couple living in a condo who have been
having problems with their cable box going out briefly and then coming back
on. I was there a year ago for the same problem on one of their cable
boxes. This time it was all three boxes. They had the cable compnay come
out so many times to rewire and replace that they will no longer come out
for this problem which they believe is with the electrical wiring. Last
year I pigtailed and replaced 2 outlets and never heard back from the couple
until this week. Last year they reported that nothing else was occurring
such as flickering lights. This year it was the same, no flickering lights,
but they also admitted that they did not use the lights on these circuits
too often. I found the three cable boxes to be on two circuits. I checked
the voltage at the main panel and it was consistent on both phases and to
ground as well as to neutral. I replaced the two breakers and opened up
every switch and outlet on
these
circuits. The outlets were a builders cheapo model with no screw
terminals, only the back stab holes. Every outlet that I removed from the
wall had the wires come out of the back stab with little effort. On one
particular wall receptacle with six wires attached, one of the neutral wires
had only about a quarter inch of copper showing which made me think that it
was not making good contact when it was inserted into the back of the
original outlet. I pigtailed and replaced every outlet on the two circuits.
I tightened every connection in the main panel. The only thing that I could
not do was check the main breaker because it was in a 6 gang meter stack
that the power company had locked up. I told the couple to call me if the
problem persisted and I would get the power company to unlock the meters.

A tool that I have found to be very helpful is the Amprobe Inspector:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...20&linkId=NH7Y
2DQQOIYSDVF7
On the above job it told me that I was on the right track by pigtailing
when I compared the before and after readings.
Another tool to use is an ammeter to measure the current on the grounding
electrode conductor at the water pipe and the ground rod. If there is
current flowing on the grounding electrode conductor, that tells you that
there is a problem with the neutral conductor.

I should add that I was quite familar with the condo complex above as I
have been doing work for the association for several years. In that time I
have found many problems that go back to the original installer. One that
stands out is a woman who had a new furnace installed in her condo. She
kept having problems with it and the service technician and her own
electrician told her it was an electrical service problem which was the
responsibility of the association. I measured 30 volts between ground and
neutral at her main panel. I go outside to have a look at the meter stack
and noticed a house panel for the outside lights. I took the cover off of
the house panel and saw a black wire on one main lug, a white wire on the
other main lug and a bare wire on the neutral bar. The house panel only had
one circuit breaker in it. I removed the stack cover and saw the black and
white on the main breaker and the bare on the ground terminal. I took the
white wire off the breaker and put
it on the neutral bar. In the house panel I took the white wire off the
main lug and put it on the neutral bar. I installed a separate ground bar
and attached the bare wire to that as well as the grounding conductor for
the one circuit. The woman's furnace is now working properly.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

"bob haller" wrote in message
...

transformer failure where only oner side of the power failed.

We have another winner but I'm afraid JG clocked in first with the answer so
he gets the valuable prize of one "Attaboy, new in box." (-;

that happended here and left me wondering for a couple hours. when I
finally figured it out the power company replaced the neighborhood
transormer

I sure was stumped but my neighbor's son nailed it as soon as I said that
only one of my UPSs starting beeping at 3AM.

--
Bobby G.

"N8N" wrote in message news:f981fcb7-5899-

My guess too... can be verified easily if you have a 240VAC receptacle
anywhere to probe (in garage for welder, or laundry room for clothes dryer)
one leg will still be hot but the other will be dead if he is correct. Or
just take cover off breaker panel and measure two breakers adjacent to each
other, they should be on opposite legs.

A third runner up. I would have done as you suggested except by the next
day it was mysteriously fixed. It really threw me because in all three
houses affected, it cured itself. That's pretty rare to lose some outlets
in the middle of the night and have them magically come back to life the
next day.

I am wondering if I could have detected it with my HomeVision X-10
controller and XTB coupler/repeater just from the PC interface. The
coupler/repeater should behave erratically if it's not getting power from
both phases, but I am not sure. I suppose I should send an email to Jeff
Volp who designed it to find out whether it would detect such a condition or
only if the phase providing power to the unit fails.

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
stuff snipped

As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot.

Except the upgrade was likely done either during or before the
seventies. - so not ENTIRELY a moot point. It was "standard practice"
and "approved" when it was done.

I was referring to the guy (OP - original poster TomR) who started the
thread asking about how to turn a two pronged outlet into a grounded one. I
think he did exactly the right thing - had a new cable with ground run.

I agree, in the 70's you were not likely to run into the problems you might
today tying into a clamp-on-pipe ground connection.

Not to say it should not be redone today.

I ran along every inch of the water pipe and removed and rewired the
surprising number of grounding clamps that were sitting on the pipes. CATV,
phone, upgrading outlets, etc. after I tore the entire ceiling down.
Virtually every clamp connector showed some sort of corrosion or physical
damage to the (very old) copper pipe.

--
Bobby G.

"Pico Rico" wrote in message news:m1a6j4
stuff snipped

GFCIs or new NM would certainly be the preferred way to do things, and
I'd
rate those solutions as two or three times as good as a new ground wire,
especially if it didn't at least run along the old wire so that it was
obvious it was related to that old, ungrounded cable.


Well, that's a good explanation. My initial thinking is that it would be
placed along the entire run back to the panel. But, that is how **I**
would
do it.

I'd at least try to do it that way, too, especially since the work was done
before the ceiling (as Clare noted) improperly concealed it. This was an
amateur who was obviously afraid to go into the circuit panel and attach the
ground wire to a real ground. Maybe I should be thankful for that, overall.
(-:

--
Bobby G.

I'll save it for another thread but my neighbor's electrician son solved a

very interesting puzzle in which some of the lights in his mom's house

went

off for several hours early in the AM and then came back on by themselves

without resetting any breakers or GFCI's. I couldn't diagnose it, and

neither could he until I told him that a single UPS's started chirping at

3AM, which I thought was low voltage but seemed to be battery failure., so

I

got up and shut it off. No other UPSs beeped so I assumed it was a local

event until my neighbor told me about her basement tenant's lights going

out, too. When I restored power to the UPS and turned it back on the next

day, everything was fine and the battery tested out as good - I was about

to

replace it just in case but it was less than a year old.



You've got good analytical skills, John. What do you think it was? (-:





Loose connections at the power company transformer.



Bingo. When we compared what circuits had failed it was clear they were all

on one phase. A neighbor who's on the "critical service" program called

them when his CPAP (breathing device for sleep apnea) failed and they sent

out a truck ASAP.



See, I told you that you had good troubleshooting skills. (-:



This past week I got a call from a couple living in a condo who have been

having problems with their cable box going out briefly and then coming back

on. I was there a year ago for the same problem on one of their cable

boxes. This time it was all three boxes. They had the cable company come

out so many times to rewire and replace that they will no longer come out

for this problem which they believe is with the electrical wiring. Last

year I pigtailed and replaced 2 outlets and never heard back from the couple

until this week. Last year they reported that nothing else was occurring

such as flickering lights. This year it was the same, no flickering lights,

but they also admitted that they did not use the lights on these circuits

too often. I found the three cable boxes to be on two circuits. I checked

the voltage at the main panel and it was consistent on both phases and to

ground as well as to neutral. I replaced the two breakers and opened up

every switch and outlet on these circuits. The outlets were a builders

cheapo model with no screw terminals, only the back stab holes. Every

outlet that I removed from the wall had the wires come out of the back stab

with little effort. On one particular wall receptacle with six wires

attached, one of the neutral wires had only about a quarter inch of copper

showing which made me think that it was not making good contact when it was

inserted into the back of the original outlet. I pigtailed and replaced

every outlet on the two circuits. I tightened every connection in the main

panel. The only thing that I could not do was check the main breaker

because it was in a 6 gang meter stack that the power company had locked up.

I told the couple to call me if the problem persisted and I would get the

power company to unlock the meters.



They call them "backstabs" because IMHO, that's exactly what they'll do to

you. I became a hero to my wife (when we were still dating many moons ago)

by fixing a garbage disposal that was about to be replaced after her dad,

her handyman friend and even an electrician could not diagnose the problem.

A faulty back stab on the control switch (which was on an outside wall where

it got cold enough for thermal contraction to make it loose) turned out to

be the culprit. The clue was it happened more in the winter than in the

summer. The switch's backstab clips still gripped the wire - a little - but

they were very easily pulled out of the holes, which doesn't happen in a

good (if there is such a thing) backstab connection - at least not when they

are new. Just moving the wires out of the backstab holes and under the

screw fixed it. I did spend a lot of time upside under the sink before

deciding the problem lay elsewhere. (-:



A tool that I have found to be very helpful is the Amprobe Inspector:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...7Y2DQQOIYSDVF7

On the above job it told me that I was on the right track by pigtailing when

I compared the before and after readings.



I recall seriously considering this tool before when I had a near fire from

a space heater plug that had become partially pulled out of the outlet. I

recall that it didn't detect arc faults and so I passed. Is that correct?

I seem to recall not many testers can detect potential arc fault situations.



*The Amprobe Inspector does not have a specific display that says that there is an arc fault condition. However, after using it for a while and taking before and after readings I realized that it does identify the conditions that could lead to an arc fault. This is not an idiot proof tool. I had trouble understanding the readings initially until I did a lot of testing and noticed the differences from outlet to outlet and circuit to circuit. For a DIYer I would suggest that they spend the time and money to redo all of the connections on their outlets and switches instead of buying an expensive tool. Arcing is a result of loose connections and the load passing through them.

Thank you for the praise Bobby,

John G




until they actually start arcing, but my memory isn't what it used to be.

It would be very useful, it sounds, in detecting old wires that have lost

some of their current carrying capability over time.



I was pretty sure I had that problem with old, cloth covered wiring that had

always had an oxide skin whenever I stripped it, but instead of trying to

test them, I just ran new outlets and took all the loads over 5A off the old

outlets. Doesn't mean someone won't plug in a space heater in one of those

old circuits some day so it might be worth almost $300 to know in advance if

that's going to be a threat. As I recall, a load like that might not trip

the breaker but could cause old wire with reduced capacity to start a fire

in the walls.



Another tool to use is an ammeter to measure the current on the grounding

electrode conductor at the water pipe and the ground rod. If there is

current flowing on the grounding electrode conductor, that tells you that

there is a problem with the neutral conductor.



This weekend I went to reach for my auto-ranging Wavetek A20 tong meter and

discovered the alkaline button batteries had leaked so much they destroyed

the damn thing. We can put a man on the moon, but are still plagued by

leaky alkaline technology. I the future I will make sure I use either

silver oxide or lithium button batteries if they are available in the size I

need. Really cheesed me off - it was a great meter with tongs just the

right size to fit into my circuit breaker panel.



It was invaluable in redistributing the loads in the panel and helped

uncover a 20A kitchen breaker that was happily allowing 23A to pass without

tripping. Gonna try a Harbor Freight cheapy (God help me!) just because I

rarely use it now. What really peeves me is that the batteries that leaked

(two LR-43's) were NOT cheap cells - they were Maxell's.



I should add that I was quite familiar with the condo complex above as I

have been doing work for the association for several years. In that time I

have found many problems that go back to the original installer.



I don't doubt that. The house my then future wife lived in had plenty of

"cheapest you can find builder specials" in it from the outlets to the

appliances. Guaranteed to last just long enough for the builder to pull up

stakes and move on.



One that stands out is a woman who had a new furnace installed in her

condo. She kept having problems with it and the service technician and her

own electrician told her it was an electrical service problem which was the

responsibility of the association. I measured 30 volts between ground and

neutral at her main panel. I go outside to have a look at the meter stack

and noticed a house panel for the outside lights. I took the cover off of

the house panel and saw a black wire on one main lug, a white wire on the

other main lug and a bare wire on the neutral bar. The house panel only had

one circuit breaker in it. I removed the stack cover and saw the black and

white on the main breaker and the bare on the ground terminal. I took the

white wire off the breaker and put it on the neutral bar. In the house

panel I took the white wire off the main lug and put it on the neutral bar.

arrived for thanksgiving dinner at my brother in laws He had installed ome plywood flooring in the attic and accidently put a screw thru the wiring, tripping the breaker that lit up most of the key areas His wife was very upset I arrived as my father in law had just completed splicing the bad romex, only to find tht didnt get the lights back on..... So I started asking questions. Found it was a X 10 setup, the short must of taken out the wall controller..

Well being thanksgiving no stores were open.

The family had NO idea what X 10 did. but reported a light would come on at 4am occasionally so brother in law replaced to switch. he till had the one he replaced with a regular switch, so I swapped out the bad one , reprogrammed it, and was the hero of the day. We had light to eat by