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#41
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Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On 10/13/2014 10:10 AM, bob haller wrote:
The family had NO idea what X 10 did. but reported a light would come on at 4am occasionally so brother in law replaced to switch. he till had the one he replaced with a regular switch, so I swapped out the bad one , reprogrammed it, and was the hero of the day. We had light to eat by Amazing how anyone with a few mechanical skills can be a hero. Right place, right time. You probably saved them some big bucks over an electrician. |
#42
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Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On 10/13/2014 11:26 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 10/13/2014 10:10 AM, bob haller wrote: The family had NO idea what X 10 did. but reported a light would come on at 4am occasionally so brother in law replaced to switch. he till had the one he replaced with a regular switch, so I swapped out the bad one , reprogrammed it, and was the hero of the day. We had light to eat by Amazing how anyone with a few mechanical skills can be a hero. Right place, right time. You probably saved them some big bucks over an electrician. The regular switch didn't operate X10? .. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .. |
#43
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Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
"TomR" wrote in message
... This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf: He wrote, "In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape." Thanks everyone. As I mentioned previously, I did read all of the replies and passed on the info that I learned etc. But, I decided to come back to this and post an additional message because I just got done doing work on a house that I "indirectly" own and which has mostly all 2-prong outlets where the "Existing wiring is in very good shape" as in the original question. I discovered that it has metal outlet boxes and all of the 2-prong receptacles are in metal boxes that are grounded with a thin ground wire that runs inside the same sheathed wire that contains the black and white wires. So, I was able to switch out some of the 2-prong receptacles and replace them with regular 3-prong receptacles that are grounded to the metal outlet box. |
#44
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Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
Did you check what the other end of the thin bare wire was connected to (to dangle a preposition)?
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#45
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Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
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#46
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Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:46:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Did you check what the other end of the thin bare wire was connected to (to dangle a preposition)? And what size that "thin" wire actually is? I think by code it has to be the same size as the branch circuit conductor, but not sure on that. Meaning you can't use a thin wire. |
#47
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Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
"trader_4" wrote in message
... On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:46:46 PM UTC-4, wrote: Did you check what the other end of the thin bare wire was connected to (to dangle a preposition)? And what size that "thin" wire actually is? I think by code it has to be the same size as the branch circuit conductor, but not sure on that. Meaning you can't use a thin wire. In my case, the old style "Romex" is 14 gauge wire with a 16 gauge ground wire. And, in an earlier post about this old style of wiring gfretwell wrote, "As another poster said, you really need to verify that there is not a ground in the existing cable. There was a period of time in the 60s when you were required to ground the boxes but you didn't need 3 prong outlets. The grounded Romex was available in the 50s. The house I grew up in, built in 53, had 2 prong outlets and 3 wire Romex. We retrofitted the 3 prong outlets, pigtailing from the box. These days it is much easier with self grounding receptacle.", and he also wrote, "[One] ... could easily make the case that the 16ga ground wire in old Romex is not up to current code (true) but it is plenty to operate the over current device in a fault." I decided to just go with those thoughts in mind and just converted some of the 2-prong receptacles to self-grounding 3-prong receptacles attached to the grounded metal outlet boxes. |
#48
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Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
wrote in message
... Did you check what the other end of the thin bare wire was connected to (to dangle a preposition)? I assume that this was in reply to my post which said, that I ".....just got done doing work on a house that I "indirectly" own and which has mostly all 2-prong outlets where the "Existing wiring is in very good shape" as in the original question. I discovered that it has metal outlet boxes and all of the 2-prong receptacles are in metal boxes that are grounded with a thin ground wire that runs inside the same sheathed wire that contains the black and white wires. So, I was able to switch out some of the 2-prong receptacles and replace them with regular 3-prong receptacles that are grounded to the metal outlet box." And, yes, the other end of the thing bare wire for each circuit was attached to the ground bar in the main panel. |
#49
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Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Thursday, October 23, 2014 10:18:27 PM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message ... On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:46:46 PM UTC-4, wrote: Did you check what the other end of the thin bare wire was connected to (to dangle a preposition)? And what size that "thin" wire actually is? I think by code it has to be the same size as the branch circuit conductor, but not sure on that. Meaning you can't use a thin wire. In my case, the old style "Romex" is 14 gauge wire with a 16 gauge ground wire. And, in an earlier post about this old style of wiring gfretwell wrote, "As another poster said, you really need to verify that there is not a ground in the existing cable. There was a period of time in the 60s when you were required to ground the boxes but you didn't need 3 prong outlets. The grounded Romex was available in the 50s. The house I grew up in, built in 53, had 2 prong outlets and 3 wire Romex. We retrofitted the 3 prong outlets, pigtailing from the box. These days it is much easier with self grounding receptacle.", and he also wrote, "[One] ... could easily make the case that the 16ga ground wire in old Romex is not up to current code (true) but it is plenty to operate the over current device in a fault." I decided to just go with those thoughts in mind and just converted some of the 2-prong receptacles to self-grounding 3-prong receptacles attached to the grounded metal outlet boxes. I would agree that from a practical standpoint and given the situation, 16 gauge is OK. But I wouldn't exactly call 16 gauge "thin" either. It's only one gauge smaller than the conductor. |
#50
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Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:44:06 PM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
"TomR" wrote in message ... This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf: He wrote, "In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape." Thanks everyone. As I mentioned previously, I did read all of the replies and passed on the info that I learned etc. But, I decided to come back to this and post an additional message because I just got done doing work on a house that I "indirectly" own and which has mostly all 2-prong outlets where the "Existing wiring is in very good shape" as in the original question. I discovered that it has metal outlet boxes and all of the 2-prong receptacles are in metal boxes that are grounded with a thin ground wire that runs inside the same sheathed wire that contains the black and white wires. So, I was able to switch out some of the 2-prong receptacles and replace them with regular 3-prong receptacles that are grounded to the metal outlet box. When you say "sheathed wire" you are referring to type AC aka "BX" correct? Just wanted to make sure. If so, everything is fine and what you've done is perfectly OK. In fact, this is a situation where buying "spec grade" receptacles with the little self-grounding clip can save you a lot of work; then you don't have to make up/buy pigtails or drill/tap your boxes for ground screws. nate |
#51
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Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Thursday, October 23, 2014 7:36:10 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:46:46 PM UTC-4, wrote: Did you check what the other end of the thin bare wire was connected to (to dangle a preposition)? And what size that "thin" wire actually is? I think by code it has to be the same size as the branch circuit conductor, but not sure on that. Meaning you can't use a thin wire. In a AC (BX) cable there's a thin metal strip that runs inside the armor so provide a grounding path. it isn't anywhere near as large as the current carrying conductors, its primary purpose is to bond together the armor to prevent a condition where if it's flexed enough the current isn't taking a spiral path. Now current production AC will have a separate ground wire within it, although as far as I know using grounding type receptacles on old AC is still completely acceptable. nate |
#52
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Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Friday, October 24, 2014 8:18:30 AM UTC-4, N8N wrote:
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:44:06 PM UTC-4, TomR wrote: "TomR" wrote in message ... This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf: He wrote, "In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape." Thanks everyone. As I mentioned previously, I did read all of the replies and passed on the info that I learned etc. But, I decided to come back to this and post an additional message because I just got done doing work on a house that I "indirectly" own and which has mostly all 2-prong outlets where the "Existing wiring is in very good shape" as in the original question. I discovered that it has metal outlet boxes and all of the 2-prong receptacles are in metal boxes that are grounded with a thin ground wire that runs inside the same sheathed wire that contains the black and white wires. So, I was able to switch out some of the 2-prong receptacles and replace them with regular 3-prong receptacles that are grounded to the metal outlet box. When you say "sheathed wire" you are referring to type AC aka "BX" correct? Just wanted to make sure. If so, everything is fine and what you've done is perfectly OK. In fact, this is a situation where buying "spec grade" receptacles with the little self-grounding clip can save you a lot of work; then you don't have to make up/buy pigtails or drill/tap your boxes for ground screws. nate I'm taking bets it's not BX, AC. Sounds like non-metallic to me. |
#53
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Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
In ,
trader_4 typed: On Friday, October 24, 2014 8:18:30 AM UTC-4, N8N wrote: On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:44:06 PM UTC-4, TomR wrote: "TomR" wrote in message ... This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf: He wrote, "In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape." Thanks everyone. As I mentioned previously, I did read all of the replies and passed on the info that I learned etc. But, I decided to come back to this and post an additional message because I just got done doing work on a house that I "indirectly" own and which has mostly all 2-prong outlets where the "Existing wiring is in very good shape" as in the original question. I discovered that it has metal outlet boxes and all of the 2-prong receptacles are in metal boxes that are grounded with a thin ground wire that runs inside the same sheathed wire that contains the black and white wires. So, I was able to switch out some of the 2-prong receptacles and replace them with regular 3-prong receptacles that are grounded to the metal outlet box. When you say "sheathed wire" you are referring to type AC aka "BX" correct? Just wanted to make sure. If so, everything is fine and what you've done is perfectly OK. In fact, this is a situation where buying "spec grade" receptacles with the little self-grounding clip can save you a lot of work; then you don't have to make up/buy pigtails or drill/tap your boxes for ground screws. nate I'm taking bets it's not BX, AC. Sounds like non-metallic to me. Correct. Definitely not BX. It is NM (non-metallic) wire that looks like Romex, but the sheathing appears to be a gray cloth-like material. Maybe that was the original version of Romex brand wire, but I am not sure. It looks like the middle gray wire in this photo: http://www.nachi.org/forum/attachmen...g-img_5281.jpg |
#54
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Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Friday, October 24, 2014 10:39:17 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
In , trader_4 typed: On Friday, October 24, 2014 8:18:30 AM UTC-4, N8N wrote: On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:44:06 PM UTC-4, TomR wrote: "TomR" wrote in message ... This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf: He wrote, "In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape." Thanks everyone. As I mentioned previously, I did read all of the replies and passed on the info that I learned etc. But, I decided to come back to this and post an additional message because I just got done doing work on a house that I "indirectly" own and which has mostly all 2-prong outlets where the "Existing wiring is in very good shape" as in the original question. I discovered that it has metal outlet boxes and all of the 2-prong receptacles are in metal boxes that are grounded with a thin ground wire that runs inside the same sheathed wire that contains the black and white wires. So, I was able to switch out some of the 2-prong receptacles and replace them with regular 3-prong receptacles that are grounded to the metal outlet box. When you say "sheathed wire" you are referring to type AC aka "BX" correct? Just wanted to make sure. If so, everything is fine and what you've done is perfectly OK. In fact, this is a situation where buying "spec grade" receptacles with the little self-grounding clip can save you a lot of work; then you don't have to make up/buy pigtails or drill/tap your boxes for ground screws. nate I'm taking bets it's not BX, AC. Sounds like non-metallic to me. Correct. Definitely not BX. It is NM (non-metallic) wire that looks like Romex, but the sheathing appears to be a gray cloth-like material. Maybe that was the original version of Romex brand wire, but I am not sure. It looks like the middle gray wire in this photo: http://www.nachi.org/forum/attachmen...g-img_5281.jpg Also visible is the word "ground" stamped on the cable. So, clearly the ground wire in the cable was code compliant at the time it was installed. And I agree with you, it's fine to use now. |
#55
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Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Friday, October 24, 2014 10:39:17 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
In , trader_4 typed: On Friday, October 24, 2014 8:18:30 AM UTC-4, N8N wrote: On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:44:06 PM UTC-4, TomR wrote: "TomR" wrote in message ... This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf: He wrote, "In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape." Thanks everyone. As I mentioned previously, I did read all of the replies and passed on the info that I learned etc. But, I decided to come back to this and post an additional message because I just got done doing work on a house that I "indirectly" own and which has mostly all 2-prong outlets where the "Existing wiring is in very good shape" as in the original question. I discovered that it has metal outlet boxes and all of the 2-prong receptacles are in metal boxes that are grounded with a thin ground wire that runs inside the same sheathed wire that contains the black and white wires. So, I was able to switch out some of the 2-prong receptacles and replace them with regular 3-prong receptacles that are grounded to the metal outlet box. When you say "sheathed wire" you are referring to type AC aka "BX" correct? Just wanted to make sure. If so, everything is fine and what you've done is perfectly OK. In fact, this is a situation where buying "spec grade" receptacles with the little self-grounding clip can save you a lot of work; then you don't have to make up/buy pigtails or drill/tap your boxes for ground screws. nate I'm taking bets it's not BX, AC. Sounds like non-metallic to me. Correct. Definitely not BX. It is NM (non-metallic) wire that looks like Romex, but the sheathing appears to be a gray cloth-like material. Maybe that was the original version of Romex brand wire, but I am not sure. It looks like the middle gray wire in this photo: http://www.nachi.org/forum/attachmen...g-img_5281.jpg Oh, gotcha. But it does have a separate ground conductor, probably 16AWG? I'd use it. If it were readily accessable beginning to end I might replace it but otherwise it's fine. Be aware however that it probably doesn't have the same temperature rating as modern NM-B cable so if feeding e.g. a light fixture tight to the ceiling with an enclosed incandescent that will make the insulation very brittle... when working in those boxes be prepared with black and white electrical tape or heat shrink to patch it up. nate |
#56
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Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Friday, October 24, 2014 11:09:31 AM UTC-4, N8N wrote:
On Friday, October 24, 2014 10:39:17 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote: In , trader_4 typed: On Friday, October 24, 2014 8:18:30 AM UTC-4, N8N wrote: On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:44:06 PM UTC-4, TomR wrote: "TomR" wrote in message ... This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf: He wrote, "In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape." Thanks everyone. As I mentioned previously, I did read all of the replies and passed on the info that I learned etc. But, I decided to come back to this and post an additional message because I just got done doing work on a house that I "indirectly" own and which has mostly all 2-prong outlets where the "Existing wiring is in very good shape" as in the original question. I discovered that it has metal outlet boxes and all of the 2-prong receptacles are in metal boxes that are grounded with a thin ground wire that runs inside the same sheathed wire that contains the black and white wires. So, I was able to switch out some of the 2-prong receptacles and replace them with regular 3-prong receptacles that are grounded to the metal outlet box. When you say "sheathed wire" you are referring to type AC aka "BX" correct? Just wanted to make sure. If so, everything is fine and what you've done is perfectly OK. In fact, this is a situation where buying "spec grade" receptacles with the little self-grounding clip can save you a lot of work; then you don't have to make up/buy pigtails or drill/tap your boxes for ground screws. nate I'm taking bets it's not BX, AC. Sounds like non-metallic to me. Correct. Definitely not BX. It is NM (non-metallic) wire that looks like Romex, but the sheathing appears to be a gray cloth-like material. Maybe that was the original version of Romex brand wire, but I am not sure. It looks like the middle gray wire in this photo: http://www.nachi.org/forum/attachmen...g-img_5281.jpg Oh, gotcha. But it does have a separate ground conductor, probably 16AWG? I'd use it. If it were readily accessable beginning to end I might replace it but otherwise it's fine. Be aware however that it probably doesn't have the same temperature rating as modern NM-B cable so if feeding e.g. a light fixture tight to the ceiling with an enclosed incandescent that will make the insulation very brittle... when working in those boxes be prepared with black and white electrical tape or heat shrink to patch it up. nate Forgot to add. I'm not sure when the ground conductor started to be the same gauge as the current carrying conductors, however, i've seen real plastic jacketed NM with 16AWG grounds, my last house was full of it (obviously a retro; the house was built in the late 40's with a mix of BX and ungrounded cloth sheathed NM) nate |
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