DIYbanter

DIYbanter (https://www.diybanter.com/)
-   Home Repair (https://www.diybanter.com/home-repair/)
-   -   Wind chill and water pipes (https://www.diybanter.com/home-repair/366041-wind-chill-water-pipes.html)

Stormin Mormon[_10_] January 3rd 14 10:11 PM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?

I know the pipes won't get below the actual
temp, but are they more likely to freeze,
with wind?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

philo [_2_] January 3rd 14 10:15 PM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On 01/03/2014 03:11 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?

I know the pipes won't get below the actual
temp, but are they more likely to freeze,
with wind?




We went through that just a few days ago on the other thread.

Wind chill below freezing will /not/ freeze the pipes


Just as long as the temp. is above 32F they will be fine

[email protected][_2_] January 3rd 14 10:33 PM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Friday, January 3, 2014 4:15:45 PM UTC-5, philo* wrote:
On 01/03/2014 03:11 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind


chill -10 or so. Which number is the one


which concerns water pipes freezing?




I know the pipes won't get below the actual


temp, but are they more likely to freeze,


with wind?










We went through that just a few days ago on the other thread.



Wind chill below freezing will /not/ freeze the pipes





Just as long as the temp. is above 32F they will be fine


But wind can be a component of making it easier for pipes to
freeze that are in certain locations, like an exterior wall,
a crawl space that has some drafts flowing through it, etc.
The same pipe that might not freeze at 15F on a calm night,
could freeze on a night with a 20 mph wind.

Stormin Mormon[_10_] January 3rd 14 11:33 PM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On 1/3/2014 4:15 PM, philo wrote:
On 01/03/2014 03:11 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?

I know the pipes won't get below the actual
temp, but are they more likely to freeze,
with wind?

We went through that just a few days ago on the other thread.
Wind chill below freezing will /not/ freeze the pipes
Just as long as the temp. is above 32F they will be fine


You may wish to read my post (above) again,
and rewrite your comment in this thread,
based on tonight's expected temps.

What you say is true, but it's not really
relevant, tonight.
--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

philo [_2_] January 4th 14 12:04 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On 01/03/2014 04:33 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 1/3/2014 4:15 PM, philo wrote:
On 01/03/2014 03:11 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?

I know the pipes won't get below the actual
temp, but are they more likely to freeze,
with wind?

We went through that just a few days ago on the other thread.
Wind chill below freezing will /not/ freeze the pipes
Just as long as the temp. is above 32F they will be fine


You may wish to read my post (above) again,
and rewrite your comment in this thread,
based on tonight's expected temps.

What you say is true, but it's not really
relevant, tonight.


Yep I totally missed "OF" It just plain did not register.

trader4 is quite right

if the pipes are in an uninsulated and not well sealed wall, the more
wind there is the more likely it will get in to cool things off

Tegger[_4_] January 4th 14 12:08 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
" wrote in news:e7fc558c-
:


But wind can be a component of making it easier for pipes to
freeze that are in certain locations, like an exterior wall,
a crawl space that has some drafts flowing through it, etc.
The same pipe that might not freeze at 15F on a calm night,
could freeze on a night with a 20 mph wind.




That's the correct answer. It all depends on
1) exposure to wind;
2) heat emitted by surrounding walls, machinery, etc.;
3) length of time subjected to the low temperature;
4) diameter of the pipe;
5) amount of water-flow though the pipes;
and probably other factors I haven't thought of yet.


--
Tegger

Stormin Mormon[_10_] January 4th 14 12:13 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On 1/3/2014 6:04 PM, philo wrote:
Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?


Yep I totally missed "OF" It just plain did not register.

trader4 is quite right

if the pipes are in an uninsulated and not well sealed wall, the more
wind there is the more likely it will get in to cool things off


Ah, well. I have my moments of miss things.
Anyhow, tonight is the one night of the year
I'll be certain to leave a faucet dripping at
the farthest place from where the water comes
in. Help to avoid frozen pipe, if possible. My
line from the curb valve is soft copper, and
will not survive a freeze cycle. The lead in
line is insulated, and heat taped. Not sure how
good are the lines under the trailer. I think
they go along the heat run, but not sure.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Gordon Shumway January 4th 14 12:21 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:11:35 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?

I know the pipes won't get below the actual
temp, but are they more likely to freeze,
with wind?


Wind chill is the effect the combination of cold air and wind has on
exposed flesh relative to only cold air. "Wind chill" has absolutely
no effect on inanimate objects. The wind on an inanimate object will
cool an inanimate object to the ambient temperature quicker than no
wind. It is impossible to get an inanimate object colder than ambient
temperature by using wind that is also ambient temperature.

Now, don't ever ask that question again or I'll turn this car
around...

philo [_2_] January 4th 14 12:21 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On 01/03/2014 05:13 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 1/3/2014 6:04 PM, philo wrote:
Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?


Yep I totally missed "OF" It just plain did not register.

trader4 is quite right

if the pipes are in an uninsulated and not well sealed wall, the more
wind there is the more likely it will get in to cool things off


Ah, well. I have my moments of miss things.
Anyhow, tonight is the one night of the year
I'll be certain to leave a faucet dripping at
the farthest place from where the water comes
in. Help to avoid frozen pipe, if possible. My
line from the curb valve is soft copper, and
will not survive a freeze cycle. The lead in
line is insulated, and heat taped. Not sure how
good are the lines under the trailer. I think
they go along the heat run, but not sure.




Yep I'd leave the water running a bit for sure.

philo [_2_] January 4th 14 12:40 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On 01/03/2014 05:21 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:11:35 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?

I know the pipes won't get below the actual
temp, but are they more likely to freeze,
with wind?


Wind chill is the effect the combination of cold air and wind has on
exposed flesh relative to only cold air. "Wind chill" has absolutely
no effect on inanimate objects. The wind on an inanimate object will
cool an inanimate object to the ambient temperature quicker than no
wind. It is impossible to get an inanimate object colder than ambient
temperature by using wind that is also ambient temperature.

Now, don't ever ask that question again or I'll turn this car
around...




That's absolutely correct but trader4 made a valid point.


Air in a wall would be warmed by the house and if no outside air got in
would act to keep the pipe warm. With a strong wind blowing, any warm
air trapped in the wall would be dissipated pretty fast.

[email protected][_2_] January 4th 14 01:02 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Friday, January 3, 2014 6:21:03 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:11:35 -0500, Stormin Mormon

wrote:



Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind


chill -10 or so. Which number is the one


which concerns water pipes freezing?




I know the pipes won't get below the actual


temp, but are they more likely to freeze,


with wind?




Wind chill is the effect the combination of cold air and wind has on

exposed flesh relative to only cold air. "Wind chill" has absolutely

no effect on inanimate objects. The wind on an inanimate object will

cool an inanimate object to the ambient temperature quicker than no

wind.



Which of course means that wind chill does have an effect on inanimate
objects, in some cases. If you take an inanimate object like a brick
that's at 70F and put it outside where it's exposed when the wind chill
is 0F it's going to cool off faster than if you put it outside when
the wind chill is 15F, even if the actual temperature in both cases is 20F. Once it's reached 20F, then it will have no further effect of any significance.

In the case of freezing pipes, I would say in many cases wind chill does matter,
because any place that is drafty, or even an exterior wall, is going to
be effected by the wind. The pipe in the wall could be colder on a night
with a lower wind chill, even though the actual outside temp is the same.


It is impossible to get an inanimate object colder than ambient

temperature by using wind that is also ambient temperature.



Now, don't ever ask that question again or I'll turn this car

around...



Red Green January 4th 14 01:35 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
Stormin Mormon wrote in news:bIFxu.115453$5Z5.69641
@fx05.iad:

Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?

I know the pipes won't get below the actual
temp, but are they more likely to freeze,
with wind?


Last time it was above 0 here was New Years Day. High yesterday -8 with
wind chill -33, high today -4 with wind chill -30 at noon, -9 now, -15
(air) tonights low.

What's the point? It always sucks worse someplace else.

Gordon Shumway January 4th 14 01:47 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 17:40:35 -0600, philo* wrote:

On 01/03/2014 05:21 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:11:35 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?

I know the pipes won't get below the actual
temp, but are they more likely to freeze,
with wind?


Wind chill is the effect the combination of cold air and wind has on
exposed flesh relative to only cold air. "Wind chill" has absolutely
no effect on inanimate objects. The wind on an inanimate object will
cool an inanimate object to the ambient temperature quicker than no
wind. It is impossible to get an inanimate object colder than ambient
temperature by using wind that is also ambient temperature.

Now, don't ever ask that question again or I'll turn this car
around...




That's absolutely correct but trader4 made a valid point.


Air in a wall would be warmed by the house and if no outside air got in
would act to keep the pipe warm. With a strong wind blowing, any warm
air trapped in the wall would be dissipated pretty fast.


What I said is completely true, period. What the temperature in the
wall that contains the plumbing is, or will become, whether it's
insulated well or not at all, is the ambient temperature, period.

Granted, plumbing in an outside wall that is poorly insulated will
have a greater chance of freezing at a given outside temperature when
it's windy than not but that's what was contained in my statement.

Damn it, I WILL turn this car around! I'm not kidding.

Gordon Shumway January 4th 14 01:55 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 16:02:50 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, January 3, 2014 6:21:03 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:11:35 -0500, Stormin Mormon

wrote:



Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind


chill -10 or so. Which number is the one


which concerns water pipes freezing?




I know the pipes won't get below the actual


temp, but are they more likely to freeze,


with wind?




Wind chill is the effect the combination of cold air and wind has on

exposed flesh relative to only cold air. "Wind chill" has absolutely

no effect on inanimate objects. The wind on an inanimate object will

cool an inanimate object to the ambient temperature quicker than no

wind.



Which of course means that wind chill does have an effect on inanimate
objects, in some cases.


No, no, no.

If you take an inanimate object like a brick
that's at 70F and put it outside where it's exposed when the wind chill
is 0F it's going to cool off faster than if you put it outside when
the wind chill is 15F, even if the actual temperature in both cases is 20F.
Once it's reached 20F, then it will have no further effect of any significance.


Yes, but the ambient temp in your example, is 20F. Wind chill does
not have time in its' calculation.

In the case of freezing pipes, I would say in many cases wind chill does matter,


You would be wrong. If it is going to freeze it may do it sooner but
the pipe will not get colder than the ambient. Period.

because any place that is drafty, or even an exterior wall, is going to
be effected by the wind. The pipe in the wall could be colder on a night
with a lower wind chill, even though the actual outside temp is the same.


It is impossible to get an inanimate object colder than ambient

temperature by using wind that is also ambient temperature.



Now, don't ever ask that question again or I'll turn this car

around...


[email protected] January 4th 14 02:05 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:11:35 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?


Both. If the wind can get to the pipes, they will freeze faster with
a wind chill of -10F than a temperature of 0F with no wind. If the
wind can't get at the pipes, wind-chill doesn't matter.

I know the pipes won't get below the actual
temp, but are they more likely to freeze,
with wind?



[email protected] January 4th 14 02:10 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 00:35:58 +0000 (UTC), Red Green
wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote in news:bIFxu.115453$5Z5.69641
:

Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?

I know the pipes won't get below the actual
temp, but are they more likely to freeze,
with wind?


Last time it was above 0 here was New Years Day. High yesterday -8 with
wind chill -33, high today -4 with wind chill -30 at noon, -9 now, -15
(air) tonights low.

What's the point? It always sucks worse someplace else.


But if you're smart, you move someplace better than where it stays
below 0F for days, or weeks, on end. It'll be cold here next week,
too. The highs will be in the 30s next week (but back to 60 for the
weekend).


[email protected] January 4th 14 02:13 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:11:35 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?

I know the pipes won't get below the actual
temp, but are they more likely to freeze,
with wind?

If they are exposed to the wind they will cool faster - but the wind
will not drop them below the actual ambient temperature.

[email protected] January 4th 14 02:13 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 15:15:45 -0600, philo* wrote:

On 01/03/2014 03:11 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?

I know the pipes won't get below the actual
temp, but are they more likely to freeze,
with wind?




We went through that just a few days ago on the other thread.

Wind chill below freezing will /not/ freeze the pipes


Just as long as the temp. is above 32F they will be fine

At 0F they will freeze regardless

[email protected] January 4th 14 02:18 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 17:21:12 -0600, philo* wrote:

On 01/03/2014 05:13 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 1/3/2014 6:04 PM, philo wrote:
Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?


Yep I totally missed "OF" It just plain did not register.

trader4 is quite right

if the pipes are in an uninsulated and not well sealed wall, the more
wind there is the more likely it will get in to cool things off


Ah, well. I have my moments of miss things.
Anyhow, tonight is the one night of the year
I'll be certain to leave a faucet dripping at
the farthest place from where the water comes
in. Help to avoid frozen pipe, if possible. My
line from the curb valve is soft copper, and
will not survive a freeze cycle. The lead in
line is insulated, and heat taped. Not sure how
good are the lines under the trailer. I think
they go along the heat run, but not sure.




Yep I'd leave the water running a bit for sure.

My brother has his trailer fully skirted, and the skirt insulated to
minimum R15. The space under the trailer is heated. (pipe from outdoor
wood furnace runs length of the trailer to the heat exchanger in the
old propane furnace) It was -35 last week, expecting -40 or better.

[email protected] January 4th 14 02:20 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 18:47:37 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 17:40:35 -0600, philo* wrote:

On 01/03/2014 05:21 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:11:35 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?

I know the pipes won't get below the actual
temp, but are they more likely to freeze,
with wind?

Wind chill is the effect the combination of cold air and wind has on
exposed flesh relative to only cold air. "Wind chill" has absolutely
no effect on inanimate objects. The wind on an inanimate object will
cool an inanimate object to the ambient temperature quicker than no
wind. It is impossible to get an inanimate object colder than ambient
temperature by using wind that is also ambient temperature.

Now, don't ever ask that question again or I'll turn this car
around...




That's absolutely correct but trader4 made a valid point.


Air in a wall would be warmed by the house and if no outside air got in
would act to keep the pipe warm. With a strong wind blowing, any warm
air trapped in the wall would be dissipated pretty fast.


What I said is completely true, period. What the temperature in the
wall that contains the plumbing is, or will become, whether it's
insulated well or not at all, is the ambient temperature, period.

Granted, plumbing in an outside wall that is poorly insulated will
have a greater chance of freezing at a given outside temperature when
it's windy than not but that's what was contained in my statement.

Damn it, I WILL turn this car around! I'm not kidding.

Just don't do 100mph in a 60mph zone. Remember - it will be ZERO F -
not ZERO C.

If the ambient temperature gets to the pipes they WILL freeze.

mike[_22_] January 4th 14 02:41 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On 1/3/2014 1:15 PM, philo wrote:
On 01/03/2014 03:11 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?

I know the pipes won't get below the actual
temp, but are they more likely to freeze,
with wind?




We went through that just a few days ago on the other thread.

Wind chill below freezing will /not/ freeze the pipes


Just as long as the temp. is above 32F they will be fine


This is a simple thermodynamic process of heat flowing from
hot to cold.
Wind Chill is a SINGLE number that estimates the effect of
wind in ONE particular instance related to typical human
behavior...nothing more...it's useless for predicting different
situations.

Freezing pipes is a VERY complex problem involving many unspecified
variables in the plumbing and structure. And it's not steady state.

The ONLY way to guarantee your pipes won't freeze is to keep the coldest
spot above freezing.
If you have a very good model of the system, you can use insulation
and thermal mass to increase the time to freeze to longer than the
below-freezing event.

Beyond that, you have to supply energy. Heat the structure and let
some of it leak into the vicinity of the pipes to keep the temperature
above freezing.
Heat tape directly on the pipes.

Higher temperature water flowing thru the pipes at a rate sufficient to
supply more energy than is lost thru the pipes to the cold environment.
This is particularly helpful when your system is basically warm, but the
pipe passes thru a short uninsulated region. I had a pipe burst in a rental
because the idiots ran the pipe right across the attic vent then
down to the washer.

A boundary layer forms at the interface providing a small amount of
insulation. Air flow can destroy this layer and increase the rate at
which heat is lost from a hot pipe into a cold environment.
If the wind is howling outside and the pipe is in the middle of the
insulated space, the wind is irrelevant...for constant temperatures.

So, what you care about is wind speed and how much of that actually
affects the pipes in your exact configuration.

The wind chill number on the TV screen is related to the effect,
but misses most of the variables for pipes. You can say that
lower wind chill number is worse, but you can't say much about how
much worse.

Gordon Shumway January 4th 14 04:12 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 20:20:36 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 18:47:37 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 17:40:35 -0600, philo* wrote:

On 01/03/2014 05:21 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:11:35 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?

I know the pipes won't get below the actual
temp, but are they more likely to freeze,
with wind?

Wind chill is the effect the combination of cold air and wind has on
exposed flesh relative to only cold air. "Wind chill" has absolutely
no effect on inanimate objects. The wind on an inanimate object will
cool an inanimate object to the ambient temperature quicker than no
wind. It is impossible to get an inanimate object colder than ambient
temperature by using wind that is also ambient temperature.

Now, don't ever ask that question again or I'll turn this car
around...




That's absolutely correct but trader4 made a valid point.


Air in a wall would be warmed by the house and if no outside air got in
would act to keep the pipe warm. With a strong wind blowing, any warm
air trapped in the wall would be dissipated pretty fast.


What I said is completely true, period. What the temperature in the
wall that contains the plumbing is, or will become, whether it's
insulated well or not at all, is the ambient temperature, period.

Granted, plumbing in an outside wall that is poorly insulated will
have a greater chance of freezing at a given outside temperature when
it's windy than not but that's what was contained in my statement.

Damn it, I WILL turn this car around! I'm not kidding.

Just don't do 100mph in a 60mph zone. Remember - it will be ZERO F -
not ZERO C.


Huh?

If the ambient temperature gets to the pipes they WILL freeze.


Umm... technically, the temperature where ever the pipes are IS the
ambient temperature for that portion of the pipe.

nestork January 4th 14 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormin Mormon[_10_] (Post 3176501)
Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?

I know the pipes won't get below the actual
temp, but are they more likely to freeze,
with wind?

The correct way to understand this is that the pipe will cool down to 0 degrees F., and no colder. The wind chill only means it'll cool down faster than if there was no wind.

Wind increases the RATE of heat loss, not the ultimate temperature a body cools down to. If the pipe were to get colder than 0 degrees F, then the stronger the wind, the faster it would be warmed up by the wind to 0 degrees F.

So, if your pipe is gonna burst, it'll burst a few minutes sooner with a wind than without, but the strength of the wind only determines how quickly that pipe cools down, not what temperature it cools down to. It cools down to the ambient temperature, which is the temperature without considering any effect of wind chill.

You have a similar effect when you go to the beach. Initially, the water feels cold to you. That's only because water absorbs heat from the skin much faster than air does. After a few minutes in the water, your skin cools down and the blood vessels in your skin shrink in diameter so that you have less blood flow to the skin and the rate of heat loss from your skin diminishes. As that rate of heat loss diminishes, the water feels less and less "cold" to you. Once your skin is at the same temperature as the water, you no longer have heat loss from your skin, and you've become "used to" the water temperature. At that point, the water no longer feels cold at all. The sensation "cold" is our skin warning us it's losing heat fast. A wind increases the rate of heat loss from the skin, so that a wind on a cold day makes it feel like it's colder than it really is.

SteveB[_15_] January 4th 14 06:09 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On 1/3/2014 2:11 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?

I know the pipes won't get below the actual
temp, but are they more likely to freeze,
with wind?



Has everything to do with the individual situation. Any wrapping? Any
heat that can transfer from living space? Is pipe in insulated wall?
Is there dead air space around pipe, or is it vulnerable to the wind?

Lots and lots and lots and lots of variables, according to many things,
right down to what pipe is made of.

Steve


Stormin Mormon[_10_] January 4th 14 09:35 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On 1/3/2014 7:47 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:

Granted, plumbing in an outside wall that is poorly insulated will
have a greater chance of freezing at a given outside temperature when
it's windy than not


Yep, better leave a faucet dripping, tonight.
Thank you, that's great common sense.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Stormin Mormon[_10_] January 4th 14 09:39 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On 1/3/2014 7:55 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 16:02:50 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

I know the pipes won't get below the actual
temp, but are they more likely to freeze,
with wind?



The wind on an inanimate object will
cool an inanimate object to the ambient temperature quicker than no
wind.



Which of course means that wind chill does have an effect on inanimate
objects, in some cases.


No, no, no.


SM: Yes, yes, yes.

If you take an inanimate object like a brick
that's at 70F and put it outside where it's exposed when the wind chill
is 0F it's going to cool off faster than if you put it outside when
the wind chill is 15F, even if the actual temperature in both cases is 20F.
Once it's reached 20F, then it will have no further effect of any significance.


Yes, but the ambient temp in your example, is 20F. Wind chill does
not have time in its' calculation.


SM: Might want to go back and research what wind
chill is. It has to do with the heat loss as a
function of time.


In the case of freezing pipes, I would say in many cases wind chill does matter,


You would be wrong. If it is going to freeze it may do it sooner but
the pipe will not get colder than the ambient. Period.


SM: So, the pipe is going to freeze sooner. That
matters, as it will warm up tomorrow, and I don't
want the pipes to freeze tonight.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Stormin Mormon[_10_] January 4th 14 09:42 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On 1/3/2014 10:43 PM, nestork wrote:

So, if your pipe is gonna burst, it'll burst a few minutes sooner with a
wind than without, but the strength of the wind only determines how
quickly that pipe cools down, not what temperature it cools down to. It
cools down to the ambient temperature, which is the temperature without
considering any effect of wind chill.


It's going to warm up tomorrow. Since the wind
chill freezes pipes sooner, it's definitely a
concern, and I do need to consider the wind
chill. Thank you.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

DerbyDad03 January 4th 14 01:25 PM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 1/3/2014 7:47 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:

Granted, plumbing in an outside wall that is poorly insulated will
have a greater chance of freezing at a given outside temperature when
it's windy than not


Yep, better leave a faucet dripping, tonight.
Thank you, that's great common sense.



In the past, it's been cold (colder) where you live in. Have you always
left a faucet dripping? Have ever had a frozen pipe?

Stormin Mormon[_10_] January 4th 14 02:00 PM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On 1/4/2014 7:25 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Yep, better leave a faucet dripping, tonight.
Thank you, that's great common sense.



In the past, it's been cold (colder) where you live in. Have you always
left a faucet dripping? Have ever had a frozen pipe?


When it gets down below 10 or so, I do try and
remember to leave a faucet drip. So far, not had
any frozen pipes.

I'm not eager to reverse the experiment, close the
faucet and see if they freeze.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Ed Pawlowski January 4th 14 02:22 PM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On 1/4/2014 3:42 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:


It's going to warm up tomorrow. Since the wind
chill freezes pipes sooner, it's definitely a
concern, and I do need to consider the wind
chill. Thank you.



nestork gave a good explanation, but instead of wind chill. we should
call it wind effect.

Does the wind hit the pipes? If yes, it can carry heat away faster, if
no, it won't matter how strong the wind is.

When the weatherman gives wind chill numbers, he is talking about how
human skin exposed to the wind feels. I was just out in my garage at -7
wearing a heavy jacket, hat and shorts. No wind, it was not a big deal.

Stormin Mormon[_10_] January 4th 14 02:26 PM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On 1/4/2014 12:09 AM, SteveB wrote:


Has everything to do with the individual situation. Any wrapping?

SM: From the curb valve (of sorts) to the bottom of the traileer has
foam wrap and heat tape. Once it goes into the floor, no wrap.

Any
heat that can transfer from living space?

SM: The tube from the curb valve to the floor has pretty much no heat
that can transfer.

Is pipe in insulated wall?
SM: Much of it (about 30 feet) is not.


Is
there dead air space around pipe, or is it vulnerable to the wind?

SM: The trailer has skirting, but I'm sure there is air that goes
through. Bitter cold air, too.


Lots and lots and lots and lots of variables, according to many things,
right down to what pipe is made of.

SM: 3/8 soft copper. Which splits when it freezes.



Steve




[email protected][_2_] January 4th 14 02:58 PM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Friday, January 3, 2014 7:47:37 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 17:40:35 -0600, philo� wrote:



On 01/03/2014 05:21 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:


On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:11:35 -0500, Stormin Mormon


wrote:




Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind


chill -10 or so. Which number is the one


which concerns water pipes freezing?




I know the pipes won't get below the actual


temp, but are they more likely to freeze,


with wind?




Wind chill is the effect the combination of cold air and wind has on


exposed flesh relative to only cold air. "Wind chill" has absolutely


no effect on inanimate objects. The wind on an inanimate object will


cool an inanimate object to the ambient temperature quicker than no


wind. It is impossible to get an inanimate object colder than ambient


temperature by using wind that is also ambient temperature.




Now, don't ever ask that question again or I'll turn this car


around...










That's absolutely correct but trader4 made a valid point.






Air in a wall would be warmed by the house and if no outside air got in


would act to keep the pipe warm. With a strong wind blowing, any warm


air trapped in the wall would be dissipated pretty fast.




What I said is completely true, period.


Actually you contradicted yourself:

" "Wind chill" has absolutely
no effect on inanimate objects. The wind on an inanimate object will
cool an inanimate object to the ambient temperature quicker than no
wind."

Wind chill is a measure of the how wind causes people to feel
colder. It also has a similar effect on cooling inanimate objects
that are warmer than ambient. Therefore it can have an effect on
objects that are warmer than ambient.

Will a pail of water at 75F freeze faster if you put it
outside where it's exposed when it's 20F with a windchill of 17F or
a winchill of 5F?



What the temperature in the

wall that contains the plumbing is, or will become, whether it's

insulated well or not at all, is the ambient temperature, period.



Only if you define ambient temperature as the temperature at the
pipe. If by ambient you mean the outside temperature, then the
temperature in the wall is likely to be lower with a wind blowing
on it than without.



Granted, plumbing in an outside wall that is poorly insulated will

have a greater chance of freezing at a given outside temperature when

it's windy than not but that's what was contained in my statement.



Wind is a component of wind chill. Would you not be more concerned
about pipes freezing on a day when the wind chill is 0F than when
it was 17F, even if the outside temp both days was 20F?




[email protected][_2_] January 4th 14 03:12 PM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Friday, January 3, 2014 7:55:21 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jan 2014 16:02:50 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Friday, January 3, 2014 6:21:03 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:


On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:11:35 -0500, Stormin Mormon




wrote:








Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind




chill -10 or so. Which number is the one




which concerns water pipes freezing?








I know the pipes won't get below the actual




temp, but are they more likely to freeze,




with wind?








Wind chill is the effect the combination of cold air and wind has on




exposed flesh relative to only cold air. "Wind chill" has absolutely




no effect on inanimate objects. The wind on an inanimate object will




cool an inanimate object to the ambient temperature quicker than no




wind.






Which of course means that wind chill does have an effect on inanimate


objects, in some cases.




No, no, no.



If you take an inanimate object like a brick


that's at 70F and put it outside where it's exposed when the wind chill


is 0F it's going to cool off faster than if you put it outside when


the wind chill is 15F, even if the actual temperature in both cases is 20F.


Once it's reached 20F, then it will have no further effect of any significance.




Yes, but the ambient temp in your example, is 20F. Wind chill does

not have time in its' calculation.



Of course it doesn't have time in it's calculation, which is irrelevant.
A bucket of 75F water placed outside when it's 20F with a wind chill of 0F
will freeze faster than it will when the wind chill is 17F. Therefore
windchill does matter with inanimate objects, in some cases.




In the case of freezing pipes, I would say in many cases wind chill does matter,




You would be wrong. If it is going to freeze it may do it sooner but

the pipe will not get colder than the ambient. Period.



That's like saying the pipes will freeze if they will freeze.
Sure, if you want to define ambient to be the temperature at the
pipes. But who measures that? The point is if one hears that
it's going to be 20F tonight, is there valid reason to be more
concerned about pipes in an outside wall, a drafty crawlspace,
etc freezing if the reported windchill is 0F versus 17F? The
answer to that is yes.





because any place that is drafty, or even an exterior wall, is going to


be effected by the wind. The pipe in the wall could be colder on a night


with a lower wind chill, even though the actual outside temp is the same.






It is impossible to get an inanimate object colder than ambient




temperature by using wind that is also ambient temperature.




Which shows that by ambient, you're using the outside air temp,
which is what most people would be looking at when trying to
decide it their pipes are going to freeze, because they have
no way of knowing what the ambient temp at the actual pipe inside
the wall is. Now, you're trying to change ambient into the
temp at the pipes hidden in the walls, which no one would even
know. It's simple. Whatever the reported outside temp is,
the lower the windchill, the greater the possibility that pipes
in an exterior wall, drafty crawlspace, etc will freeze.

Here's another question. If inanimate objects are not affected
by windchill, then on a night when the outside temp is 20F,
the same house is going to use the same amount of energy to
keep it at 70F when the windchill is 0F as it does if the windchill
is 17F?

[email protected][_2_] January 4th 14 03:26 PM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Friday, January 3, 2014 10:43:59 PM UTC-5, nestork wrote:
'Stormin Mormon[_10_ Wrote:

;3176501']


Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind


chill -10 or so. Which number is the one


which concerns water pipes freezing?




I know the pipes won't get below the actual


temp, but are they more likely to freeze,


with wind?






The pipe will cool down to 0 degrees F., and no colder. The wind chill

only means it'll cool down faster than if there was no wind.



That isn't true. Take a somewhat drafty crawlspace. Put a
thermometer a various places inside it. Measure the low
temps recorded when:

A - It's 20F outside and no wind

B - It's 20F outside and there is a 35mph wind.

You think the low temps are going to be the same?

That's a real potential pipe freezing example and the lower
the wind chill, the more likely the pipes will freeze.




The correct way to think about it is that if the ambient temperature is

0 deg. F, then the pipe and the water in it will not get colder than 0

degrees F.



The greater the wind chill, however, the faster a pipe with warm water

in it will cool down to 0 deg. F.



Wind increases the RATE of heat loss, not the ultimate temperature a

body cools down to.


Yes, if the body is fully exposed. But many, probably most pipe
freezing situations are one where the pipe is not outside, but
partially protected, eg the crawlspace example. If it's fullly
exposed, then it;s likely drained, winterized, etc.





If the pipe were to get colder than 0 degrees F,

then the stronger the wind, the faster it would be warmed up by the air

to 0 degrees F.



So, if your pipe is gonna burst, it'll burst a few minutes sooner with a

wind than without, but the strength of the wind only determines how

quickly that pipe cools down, not what temperature it cools down to.


Per the crawlspace example, it can also effect what low temperature it
sees. Here;s another example. Suppose you have a cabin with water
pipes inside. The cabin is at 40F. Overnight it's going down to
20F. Do you not agree that it's more likely the pipes will freeze
with a 35mph wind blowing, hence a windchill of 3F, than it would be
with still air and a windchill of 20F?


Gordon Shumway January 4th 14 06:51 PM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 05:58:31 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, January 3, 2014 7:47:37 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 17:40:35 -0600, philo� wrote:

On 01/03/2014 05:21 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:


On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:11:35 -0500, Stormin Mormon


wrote:


Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing?
I know the pipes won't get below the actual
temp, but are they more likely to freeze,
with wind?


Wind chill is the effect the combination of cold air and wind has on
exposed flesh relative to only cold air. "Wind chill" has absolutely
no effect on inanimate objects. The wind on an inanimate object will
cool an inanimate object to the ambient temperature quicker than no
wind. It is impossible to get an inanimate object colder than ambient
temperature by using wind that is also ambient temperature.

Now, don't ever ask that question again or I'll turn this car
around...


That's absolutely correct but trader4 made a valid point.
Air in a wall would be warmed by the house and if no outside air got in
would act to keep the pipe warm. With a strong wind blowing, any warm
air trapped in the wall would be dissipated pretty fast.


What I said is completely true, period.


Actually you contradicted yourself:

" "Wind chill" has absolutely
no effect on inanimate objects. The wind on an inanimate object will
cool an inanimate object to the ambient temperature quicker than no
wind."


No, I didn't contradict myself but you just did. "Wind chill" has no
effect on an inanimate object. Wind chill is just how cold ambient
temperature feels to exposed flesh.

Now can you agree that "how cold it feels to exposed flesh" has no
effect on inanimate objects?

The wind (not wind chill) will have an effect on heat transfer.

Wind chill is a measure of the how wind causes people to feel
colder. It also has a similar effect on cooling inanimate objects
that are warmer than ambient. Therefore it can have an effect on
objects that are warmer than ambient.

Will a pail of water at 75F freeze faster if you put it
outside where it's exposed when it's 20F with a windchill of 17F or
a winchill of 5F?


[email protected][_2_] January 4th 14 08:15 PM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Saturday, January 4, 2014 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 05:58:31 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Friday, January 3, 2014 7:47:37 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:


On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 17:40:35 -0600, philo� wrote:




On 01/03/2014 05:21 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:




On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:11:35 -0500, Stormin Mormon




wrote:




Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind


chill -10 or so. Which number is the one


which concerns water pipes freezing?


I know the pipes won't get below the actual


temp, but are they more likely to freeze,


with wind?




Wind chill is the effect the combination of cold air and wind has on


exposed flesh relative to only cold air. "Wind chill" has absolutely


no effect on inanimate objects. The wind on an inanimate object will


cool an inanimate object to the ambient temperature quicker than no


wind. It is impossible to get an inanimate object colder than ambient


temperature by using wind that is also ambient temperature.




Now, don't ever ask that question again or I'll turn this car


around...




That's absolutely correct but trader4 made a valid point.


Air in a wall would be warmed by the house and if no outside air got in


would act to keep the pipe warm. With a strong wind blowing, any warm


air trapped in the wall would be dissipated pretty fast.




What I said is completely true, period.




Actually you contradicted yourself:




" "Wind chill" has absolutely


no effect on inanimate objects. The wind on an inanimate object will


cool an inanimate object to the ambient temperature quicker than no


wind."




Well, no **** Sherlock. Apparently windchill does have
an effect on an inanimate object.... And let's look at the context,
before you try to hijack it into something else. The question that
was asked was if wind chill was a consideration in pipes posssibly
freezing.

Your answer, which you apparently cling to, is that wind chill
has no effect on inanimate objects.

Wrong, as demonstated by physics and my various examples.



No, I didn't contradict myself but you just did. "Wind chill" has no

effect on an inanimate object. Wind chill is just how cold ambient

temperature feels to exposed flesh.



BS. Wind chill is an index that indicates how wind and in some
cases evaporation, factors in to cooling things. Those "things"
could be you or an inaminate object that is above the outside temp.

Are you really saying that a house with no heat, there is no
reason to be more concerned on a night when the wind chill is 0F,
as opposed to 20F, even if the outside temp is the same?
Yes or no?



Now can you agree that "how cold it feels to exposed flesh" has no

effect on inanimate objects?



How it "feels" matters not a wit. The fact that wind chill is
directly dependent on wind speed and that it can effect how pipes
may freeze in a crawl space, an unheated cabin, etc is fact.





The wind (not wind chill) will have an effect on heat transfer.



Wrong, because the only component other than temp, of "wind chill"
is windspeed, at least in the US.



Wind chill is a measure of the how wind causes people to feel


colder. It also has a similar effect on cooling inanimate objects


that are warmer than ambient. Therefore it can have an effect on


objects that are warmer than ambient.




Will a pail of water at 75F freeze faster if you put it


outside where it's exposed when it's 20F with a windchill of 17F or


a winchill of 5F?


Non answer noted.....

Ed Pawlowski January 4th 14 09:39 PM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On 1/4/2014 9:12 AM, wrote:

That's like saying the pipes will freeze if they will freeze.
Sure, if you want to define ambient to be the temperature at the
pipes. But who measures that? The point is if one hears that
it's going to be 20F tonight, is there valid reason to be more
concerned about pipes in an outside wall, a drafty crawlspace,
etc freezing if the reported windchill is 0F versus 17F? The
answer to that is yes.


Let's change the parameters. Outside temperature is 35 degrees, but
because of the wind, the weatherman says the wind chill factor is 29
degrees. Will the pipe freeze? No.

In your example you use an example of 17 and 0. The only difference
that may have a minor effect is if the wind is actually moving the air
away from the pipes. Many factors come into play on how the wind moves
around the pipes inside the crawlspace. It does not determine if the
pipes will freeze, on;y how fast. Rate of heat transfer is the only
difference, the temperature never goes below ambient.



Here's another question. If inanimate objects are not affected
by windchill, then on a night when the outside temp is 20F,
the same house is going to use the same amount of energy to
keep it at 70F when the windchill is 0F as it does if the windchill
is 17F?


The big difference is how well sealed the house is. Radiational cooling
difference will be minimal, but convection can be considerable.


Gordon Shumway January 4th 14 11:01 PM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 11:15:56 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Well, no **** Sherlock. Apparently windchill does have
an effect on an inanimate object.... And let's look at the context,
before you try to hijack it into something else. The question that
was asked was if wind chill was a consideration in pipes posssibly
freezing.


"Wind chill" has no effect on inanimate objects. Period, if I may
quote our fearless leader.

Your answer, which you apparently cling to, is that wind chill
has no effect on inanimate objects.

Wrong, as demonstated by physics and my various examples.


Your various examples are merely demonstrating the effect of wind, not
wind chill. Until you can understand the difference there is no
further point in this conversation.

If I may paraphrase another of our presidents, It's the wind, stupid.


No, I didn't contradict myself but you just did. "Wind chill" has no

effect on an inanimate object. Wind chill is just how cold ambient

temperature feels to exposed flesh.



BS. Wind chill is an index that indicates how wind and in some
cases evaporation, factors in to cooling things. Those "things"
could be you or an inaminate object that is above the outside temp.

Are you really saying that a house with no heat, there is no
reason to be more concerned on a night when the wind chill is 0F,
as opposed to 20F, even if the outside temp is the same?
Yes or no?



Now can you agree that "how cold it feels to exposed flesh" has no

effect on inanimate objects?



How it "feels" matters not a wit. The fact that wind chill is
directly dependent on wind speed and that it can effect how pipes
may freeze in a crawl space, an unheated cabin, etc is fact.





The wind (not wind chill) will have an effect on heat transfer.



Wrong, because the only component other than temp, of "wind chill"
is windspeed, at least in the US.



Wind chill is a measure of the how wind causes people to feel


colder. It also has a similar effect on cooling inanimate objects


that are warmer than ambient. Therefore it can have an effect on


objects that are warmer than ambient.




Will a pail of water at 75F freeze faster if you put it


outside where it's exposed when it's 20F with a windchill of 17F or


a winchill of 5F?


Non answer noted.....


[email protected] January 5th 14 05:01 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 15:39:20 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/4/2014 9:12 AM, wrote:

That's like saying the pipes will freeze if they will freeze.
Sure, if you want to define ambient to be the temperature at the
pipes. But who measures that? The point is if one hears that
it's going to be 20F tonight, is there valid reason to be more
concerned about pipes in an outside wall, a drafty crawlspace,
etc freezing if the reported windchill is 0F versus 17F? The
answer to that is yes.


Let's change the parameters. Outside temperature is 35 degrees, but
because of the wind, the weatherman says the wind chill factor is 29
degrees. Will the pipe freeze? No.


No, but it will cool faster. Wind chill is still relevant to
inanimate objects, even above freezing.

In your example you use an example of 17 and 0. The only difference
that may have a minor effect is if the wind is actually moving the air
away from the pipes.


....or the wall (and the pipes indirectly)

Many factors come into play on how the wind moves
around the pipes inside the crawlspace. It does not determine if the
pipes will freeze, on;y how fast. Rate of heat transfer is the only
difference, the temperature never goes below ambient.


Right but that's not the issue at hand.

Here's another question. If inanimate objects are not affected
by windchill, then on a night when the outside temp is 20F,
the same house is going to use the same amount of energy to
keep it at 70F when the windchill is 0F as it does if the windchill
is 17F?


The big difference is how well sealed the house is. Radiational cooling
difference will be minimal, but convection can be considerable.


Well, wind chill has no bearing on radiation cooling.

Gordon Shumway January 5th 14 05:37 AM

Wind chill and water pipes
 
On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 23:01:32 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 15:39:20 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/4/2014 9:12 AM,
wrote:

That's like saying the pipes will freeze if they will freeze.
Sure, if you want to define ambient to be the temperature at the
pipes. But who measures that? The point is if one hears that
it's going to be 20F tonight, is there valid reason to be more
concerned about pipes in an outside wall, a drafty crawlspace,
etc freezing if the reported windchill is 0F versus 17F? The
answer to that is yes.


Let's change the parameters. Outside temperature is 35 degrees, but
because of the wind, the weatherman says the wind chill factor is 29
degrees. Will the pipe freeze? No.


No, but it will cool faster. Wind chill is still relevant to
inanimate objects, even above freezing.


You would have been 100% correct if you had left off the word "chill."

In your example you use an example of 17 and 0. The only difference
that may have a minor effect is if the wind is actually moving the air
away from the pipes.


...or the wall (and the pipes indirectly)

Many factors come into play on how the wind moves
around the pipes inside the crawlspace. It does not determine if the
pipes will freeze, on;y how fast. Rate of heat transfer is the only
difference, the temperature never goes below ambient.


Right but that's not the issue at hand.

Here's another question. If inanimate objects are not affected
by windchill, then on a night when the outside temp is 20F,
the same house is going to use the same amount of energy to
keep it at 70F when the windchill is 0F as it does if the windchill
is 17F?


The big difference is how well sealed the house is. Radiational cooling
difference will be minimal, but convection can be considerable.


Well, wind chill has no bearing on radiation cooling.



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:04 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 DIYbanter