On Sunday, January 5, 2014 11:02:58 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 20:28:19 -0500, wrote:



On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 22:37:04 -0600, Gordon Shumway

wrote:



On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 23:01:32 -0500, wrote:



On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 15:39:20 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



On 1/4/2014 9:12 AM, wrote:



That's like saying the pipes will freeze if they will freeze.

Sure, if you want to define ambient to be the temperature at the

pipes. But who measures that? The point is if one hears that

it's going to be 20F tonight, is there valid reason to be more

concerned about pipes in an outside wall, a drafty crawlspace,

etc freezing if the reported windchill is 0F versus 17F? The

answer to that is yes.



Let's change the parameters. Outside temperature is 35 degrees, but

because of the wind, the weatherman says the wind chill factor is 29

degrees. Will the pipe freeze? No.



No, but it will cool faster. Wind chill is still relevant to

inanimate objects, even above freezing.



You would have been 100% correct if you had left off the word "chill."



I don't know if you're just being pedantic, but you're wrong.



I was getting ready for bed, sitting on the throne and the figurative

light bulb came on! I think I have a way to get my point across once

and for all.



I'm sure many of us have done some investigation on this topic. We

have probably found that the term wind chill was coined by the

American geographer Paul A. Siple sometime in 1939.



Let's pretend that we have all gone over to Mr. Peabody's with Sherman

and we climb into the WABAC machine and travel back in time before

1939, let's say the roaring '20's. Long before this thing called wind

chill existed. Now let's assume one of you, and I believe Stormy was

the sinister individual that started this, is worried about his pipes

freezing.



We all know wind chill doesn't exist, because Al Capone says it

doesn't, so what would make Stormy's pipes freeze then?

Instead of spinning stories that have nothing to do with anything,
why don't you just man up and admit you were wrong when you said:

"Wind chill" has no effect on inanimate objects. Period, if I may
quote our fearless leader. "

Your own source at NOAA even says you're wrong.

On Sunday, January 5, 2014 3:41:27 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/5/2014 9:41 AM, wrote:







Rate of heat transfer is the only



difference, the temperature never goes below ambient.





I agree and never suggested otherwise. Note that rate of heat transfer

is an effect on inanimate objects.





Yes, but that is an efect of the wind, not the wind chill the weatherman

talks about how we feel in the wind.


The windchill number reflects the increased heat transfer that
wind causes. The only two component are temp and wind speed.
Do you disagree that water pipes are more likely to freeze in
a crawlspace, a house with no heat, etc on a night when the windchill
is 0F, instead of 20F, even when the actual overnight temp is 20F on both
nights?




















The big difference is how well sealed the house is. Radiational cooling



difference will be minimal, but convection can be considerable.



Which shows that windchill applies to inanimate objects too.





No, it shows the effects of wind but has nothing to do with the

windchill factor on the 11 o'clock news

If it has nothing to do with the reported windchill, then you're
answer to the above question is that it makes no difference?
The pipes are just as likely to freeze in that crawlspace on a
night when the windchill is 0F, as they are when the windchill is
20F, even though the outside air is 20F, both nights?


Here, from the Weather Channel:
http://www.weather.com/activities/ho...e_prevent.html


"Pipes in attics, crawl spaces and outside walls are all vulnerable to freezing, especially if there are cracks or openings that allow cold, outside air to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has shown that €œwind chill,€� the cooling effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can play a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pipes. "


From City of Rochester:

http://www.rochesternh.net/public_Do...ER%20PIPES.pdf
"Pipes inside or outside walls, or in an enclosed area can freeze,
especially when the wind-chill factor is well below zero and heat is
not circulating in those areas."

On 1/6/2014 8:49 AM, wrote:


"Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing? "

The answer is both of them. At 0F, it's cold enough to freeze
pipes. And depending on where the pipes are, they can be
affected by the windchill. Again, just two examples:

Affected how? The wind may make then freeze a bit faster by removing
heat faster, but regardless of the wind chill number, the pipes will
never see anything below 0 degrees.




A - Pipes are in a cabin with no heat. Do you think the cabin
inside temp will be the same overnight as the temp drops without
regard to what the windchill is? If the reported windchill was
large, would you not agree that the pipes are going to be
more likely to freeze?

No. If the temperature is 35 and the wind chill is 25, the pipes will
not freeze. They will never go below 35F




Then why won't Gordon just admit he's wrong, even after his
own reference from NOAA says that inanimate objects can be affected
by windchill?


Best to ask Gordon.




No matter how you term things, it does not change the laws of physics. .

Again, tell that to Gordon. He's the one that said windchill had
absolutely no effect on inanimate objects and won't just admit that
he's wrong. Apparently you agree he's wrong too.

Gets back to definitions. Wind can move heat away faster but inanimate
objects will never feel the "chill" number, only the actual number.
They may get there a bit faster though. NOAA confused things with their
definition. .

On 1/6/2014 9:14 AM, wrote:



No, it shows the effects of wind but has nothing to do with the

windchill factor on the 11 o'clock news

If it has nothing to do with the reported windchill, then you're
answer to the above question is that it makes no difference?
The pipes are just as likely to freeze in that crawlspace on a
night when the windchill is 0F, as they are when the windchill is
20F, even though the outside air is 20F, both nights?

Yes, but they won't freeze if the air temperature is 33 degrees and the
wind chill is 20. See the difference?



Here, from the Weather Channel:
http://www.weather.com/activities/ho...e_prevent.html


"Pipes in attics, crawl spaces and outside walls are all vulnerable to freezing, especially if there are cracks or openings that allow cold, outside air to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has shown that €œwind chill,€� the cooling effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can play a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pipes."


From City of Rochester:

http://www.rochesternh.net/public_Do...ER%20PIPES.pdf
"Pipes inside or outside walls, or in an enclosed area can freeze,
especially when the wind-chill factor is well below zero and heat is
not circulating in those areas."


The problem still goes back to definition. It has become diluted from
the original intent of how the body feels. Yes, wind can carry heat away
faster, but it will never reduce it below actual temperature on an
inanimate object. Many weather reports now use the "real feel"
designation and it considers how hot you feel on a warm and dry versus
warm and humid day. Same with cold. But the thermometer does not change.

On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 15:40:02 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/6/2014 9:14 AM, wrote:


The problem still goes back to definition. It has become diluted from
the original intent of how the body feels. Yes, wind can carry heat away
faster, but it will never reduce it below actual temperature on an
inanimate object. Many weather reports now use the "real feel"
designation and it considers how hot you feel on a warm and dry versus
warm and humid day. Same with cold. But the thermometer does not change.

It's a losing battle, Ed.

This has nothing to do with wind chill...but it gives you pretty much the magic number for a pipe to burst. From "The Weather Channel"!

When should homeowners be alert to the danger of freezing pipes? That depends, but in southern states and other areas where freezing weather is the exception rather than the rule (and where houses often do not provide adequate built-in protection), the temperature alert threshold is 20°F.

This threshold is based upon research conducted by the Building Research Council at the University of Illinois. Field tests of residential water systems subjected to winter temperatures demonstrated that, for un-insulated pipes installed in an unconditioned attic, the onset of freezing occurred when the outside temperature fell to 20°F or below.

This finding was supported by a survey of 71 plumbers practicing in southern states, in which the consensus was that burst-pipe problems began to appear when temperatures fell into the teens.
(Note: Please disregard any wind chill! *J*)

On 1/6/2014 6:14 AM, wrote:


If it has nothing to do with the reported windchill, then you're
answer to the above question is that it makes no difference?
The pipes are just as likely to freeze in that crawlspace on a
night when the windchill is 0F, as they are when the windchill is
20F, even though the outside air is 20F, both nights?

If the wind speed at the surface of the pipe is not zero,
you expect the pipes to freeze more quickly. How much more quickly
depends on many factors...ALL of which are more important than
that number scrolling across the bottom of your TV screen.

In my crawlspace it's 55F year round virtually independent of
wind speed...because I pay attention to all those other factors
that are way more important than the windchill number scrolling
across the TV.

On 1/6/2014 3:19 PM, Bob_Villa wrote:
This has nothing to do with wind chill...but it gives you pretty much the magic number for a pipe to burst. From "The Weather Channel"!

When should homeowners be alert to the danger of freezing pipes? That depends, but in southern states and other areas where freezing weather is the exception rather than the rule (and where houses often do not provide adequate built-in protection), the temperature alert threshold is 20°F.

This threshold is based upon research conducted by the Building Research Council at the University of Illinois. Field tests of residential water systems subjected to winter temperatures demonstrated that, for un-insulated pipes installed in an unconditioned attic, the onset of freezing occurred when the outside temperature fell to 20°F or below.

This finding was supported by a survey of 71 plumbers practicing in southern states, in which the consensus was that burst-pipe problems began to appear when temperatures fell into the teens.
(Note: Please disregard any wind chill! *J*)


Good info.
Statistics are great for doing statistical things.
Statistics are not so great for individual situations.
If your pipes are frozen, knowing that nobody else's
froze is of little consolation.
There's no substitute for evaluuating YOUR situation and taking
actions appropriate to YOUR situation.

I fully understand that in some parts of your country, "winter" is when you put on a sweater before going outside.

But, I don't understand why architects can't design homes where the potable water supply piping always runs up through interior walls so that people don't have to be concerned about their pipes cracking the odd time the temperature does drop below 20 deg. F.

Alternatively, why not fasten electric heating cables to those pipes and insulate the assembly to eliminate that risk? You could have a switch somewheres that turns on the power to those heating cables, and a thermostat on each cable that maintains the temperature of the pipe at 45 deg. F, say, for good economy.

It just seems to me that the cost of preventing the pipes from freezing is small, but the cost of repairing water damage from a cracked water pipe is large, so why not spend a little bit up front to avoid paying a lot later on down the road.

On 1/6/2014 6:19 PM, Bob_Villa wrote:
This has nothing to do with wind chill...but it gives you pretty much the magic number for a pipe to burst. From "The Weather Channel"!

When should homeowners be alert to the danger of freezing pipes? That depends, but in southern states and other areas where freezing weather is the exception rather than the rule (and where houses often do not provide adequate built-in protection), the temperature alert threshold is 20°F.

This threshold is based upon research conducted by the Building Research Council at the University of Illinois. Field tests of residential water systems subjected to winter temperatures demonstrated that, for un-insulated pipes installed in an unconditioned attic, the onset of freezing occurred when the outside temperature fell to 20°F or below.

This finding was supported by a survey of 71 plumbers practicing in southern states, in which the consensus was that burst-pipe problems began to appear when temperatures fell into the teens.
(Note: Please disregard any wind chill! *J*)

And here's a laugh on me:

Tues Jan 07, 2014, 07:00 AM

My outdoor thermometer says -1F.

First time in years I've seen minus F temps out
there. I guess NYS is not experiencing global
warming. At least, not this morning.

Something froze. My hot water isn't flowing.
Cold is fine. I'll be outdoors in a few minutes
with electric heat gun, trying to thaw pipes.
Not going to use a torch.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Monday, January 6, 2014 3:32:18 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/6/2014 8:49 AM, wrote:





"Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind

chill -10 or so. Which number is the one

which concerns water pipes freezing? "



The answer is both of them. At 0F, it's cold enough to freeze

pipes. And depending on where the pipes are, they can be

affected by the windchill. Again, just two examples:



Affected how? The wind may make then freeze a bit faster by removing

heat faster, but regardless of the wind chill number, the pipes will

never see anything below 0 degrees.



It would help if you didn't edit out the pertinent part you're responding
to and would at least answer the simple questions posed.
I gave you two examples:

"The answer is both of them. At 0F, it's cold enough to freeze
pipes. And depending on where the pipes are, they can be
affected by the windchill. Again, just two examples:

A - Pipes are in a cabin with no heat. Do you think the cabin
inside temp will be the same overnight as the temp drops without
regard to what the windchill is? If the reported windchill was
large, would you not agree that the pipes are going to be
more likely to freeze?

B - Pipes in a drafty crawlspace. "


The temps that the crawlspace reaches on a cold night is
affected by the windchill. So is the temperature that an
unheated cabin will reach inside. With significant windchill
they could reach temps overnight that they would not reach
without windchill. It's that simple.










A - Pipes are in a cabin with no heat. Do you think the cabin

inside temp will be the same overnight as the temp drops without

regard to what the windchill is? If the reported windchill was

large, would you not agree that the pipes are going to be

more likely to freeze?



No. If the temperature is 35 and the wind chill is 25, the pipes will

not freeze. They will never go below 35F



Why do you persist in only looking at the case where the outside
temp is well above zero? Good grief. The question and context
that started all this, again, was where the temp was ZERO and
there was an additional 10 deg of winchill.













Then why won't Gordon just admit he's wrong, even after his

own reference from NOAA says that inanimate objects can be affected

by windchill?





Best to ask Gordon.



I thought maybe you'd have an answer, because you seem just
as confused and unwilling to accept the fact that windchill does
affect inanimate objects. Like him, you're stuck in a loop:

It has no effect, it doesn't matter, it can have nothing to do
with pipes freezing. But then you say the only effect windchill
has is to cool off inanimate objects faster.










No matter how you term things, it does not change the laws of physics. .



Again, tell that to Gordon. He's the one that said windchill had

absolutely no effect on inanimate objects and won't just admit that

he's wrong. Apparently you agree he's wrong too.



Gets back to definitions. Wind can move heat away faster but inanimate

objects will never feel the "chill" number, only the actual number.

No one said they can feel the number. Only that they can be
affected by it too. Again, the drafty crawlspace, the unheated
cabin.




They may get there a bit faster though.

It's not just a question of a bit faster. Again, on a night where
the outside temp drops to 20F and the windchill is 0F, do you think
the lowest temp of an unheated cabin is going to be the same as it
is if the windchill was reported as 20F? That is a very realistic
example where it makes a difference.




NOAA confused things with their

definition. .



I don't see a problem with their definition. They did contradict
themselves in answering the question. But even they say windchill
affect pipess.

On Sunday, January 5, 2014 3:41:27 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/5/2014 9:41 AM, wrote:







Rate of heat transfer is the only



difference, the temperature never goes below ambient.





I agree and never suggested otherwise. Note that rate of heat transfer

is an effect on inanimate objects.





Yes, but that is an efect of the wind, not the wind chill the weatherman

talks about how we feel in the wind.


The reported windchill is directly dependent on the wind.
Let's say the weatherman was giving his report and you missed
what he said about the wind. Let's look at two different
reports:

A - It's currently 35F and it's going to drop to 20F overnight
with a windchill of 20F.

B - It's currently 35F and it's going to drop to 20F overnight
with a windchill of 0F.

You have a drafty crawlspace or an unheated cabin. Would you
think there is more reason to be concerned about pipes freezing
overnight in case A or B?





















The big difference is how well sealed the house is. Radiational cooling



difference will be minimal, but convection can be considerable.



Which shows that windchill applies to inanimate objects too.





No, it shows the effects of wind but has nothing to do with the

windchill factor on the 11 o'clock news

BS. The windchill is directly dependent on windspeed. It can
be used as a proxy for windspeed. If the forecasted temp is
20F and the windchill is also 20F, what does that tell you about
the wind?: no wind. If it's forecsted to be 20F with a windchill
of 0F, that tells you there is going to be a strong wind and you
should be more concerned about pipes freezing in a draft crawspace,
unheated cabin, etc.

On 1/7/2014 7:11 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
And here's a laugh on me:

Tues Jan 07, 2014, 07:00 AM

My outdoor thermometer says -1F.

First time in years I've seen minus F temps out
there. I guess NYS is not experiencing global
warming. At least, not this morning.

Something froze. My hot water isn't flowing.
Cold is fine. I'll be outdoors in a few minutes
with electric heat gun, trying to thaw pipes.
Not going to use a torch.

8:25 AM, about an hour and a half later.
Hot works in the kitchen,and a little bit
in the bathroom sink. Lost the cold in the
bathroom sink. Shower and tub diverter seems
frozen. The WH cabinet has vent which is wide
open, about 12 x 18 inches, and the wind is
blowing from that direction. I'm rigging a
patch for that vent grille, cover that.

My fingers are serious cold, and I'm not enjoying
being out in the cold. Wishing I had a caged 100
watt light bulb I could put out there. And wait
for it to thaw.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Monday, January 6, 2014 3:40:02 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/6/2014 9:14 AM, wrote:







No, it shows the effects of wind but has nothing to do with the



windchill factor on the 11 o'clock news



If it has nothing to do with the reported windchill, then you're

answer to the above question is that it makes no difference?

The pipes are just as likely to freeze in that crawlspace on a

night when the windchill is 0F, as they are when the windchill is

20F, even though the outside air is 20F, both nights?



Yes, but they won't freeze if the air temperature is 33 degrees and the

wind chill is 20. See the difference?



Yes I do. But continuing to use cases where the temp is above
freezing doesn't show that the lower the reported windchill, the
more likely pipes in a drafty crawlspace or an unheated cabin
are to freeze when the temps are well below freezing. Again the
qustion posed wasn't about 35F. It was about a day with 0F actual,
-10F windchill.








Here, from the Weather Channel:

http://www.weather.com/activities/ho...e_prevent.html





"Pipes in attics, crawl spaces and outside walls are all vulnerable to freezing, especially if there are cracks or openings that allow cold, outside air to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has shown that €œwind chill,€� the cooling effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can play a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pipes."





From City of Rochester:



http://www.rochesternh.net/public_Do...ER%20PIPES.pdf

"Pipes inside or outside walls, or in an enclosed area can freeze,

especially when the wind-chill factor is well below zero and heat is

not circulating in those areas."





The problem still goes back to definition. It has become diluted from

the original intent of how the body feels. Yes, wind can carry heat away

faster, but it will never reduce it below actual temperature on an

inanimate object.

As someone else pointed out to you several posts ago, that
isn't true either. You're just adding to the confusion.
Any inanimate object with moisture that can evaporate can be
reduced to a temp below that of the air by evaporative cooling.




Many weather reports now use the "real feel"

designation and it considers how hot you feel on a warm and dry versus

warm and humid day. Same with cold. But the thermometer does not change.

No one said the thermometer changes. Only that in the case that started
this, where it's 0F with a windchill of -10F, that:

A - windchill does have an effect on inanimate objects

B - in cases like that, where it's below freezing, the lower the windchill,
the more likely pipes are to freeze in a drafty crawlspace, an unheated
cabin, etc.

Again, if all you heard on the weather report was that it was going
to drop to 20F overnight and the windchill, would you be more
concerned about pipes in a drafty crawlspace freezing with a reported
windchill of 20F, or with a windchill of 0F?

On Monday, January 6, 2014 4:56:38 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 15:40:02 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



On 1/6/2014 9:14 AM, wrote:





The problem still goes back to definition. It has become diluted from

the original intent of how the body feels. Yes, wind can carry heat away

faster, but it will never reduce it below actual temperature on an

inanimate object. Many weather reports now use the "real feel"

designation and it considers how hot you feel on a warm and dry versus

warm and humid day. Same with cold. But the thermometer does not change..



It's a losing battle, Ed.

Yes and the Weather Channel, City of Rochester, Univ of Illinois all
say you've lost:

Here, from the Weather Channel:
http://www.weather.com/activities/ho...e_prevent.html


"Pipes in attics, crawl spaces and outside walls are all vulnerable to freezing, especially if there are cracks or openings that allow cold, outside air to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has shown that €œwind chill,€� the cooling effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can play a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pipes."


From City of Rochester:

http://www.rochesternh.net/public_Do...ER%20PIPES.pdf
"Pipes inside or outside walls, or in an enclosed area can freeze,
especially when the wind-chill factor is well below zero and heat is
not circulating in those areas."

On Monday, January 6, 2014 9:03:41 PM UTC-5, mike wrote:
On 1/6/2014 6:14 AM, wrote:





If it has nothing to do with the reported windchill, then you're

answer to the above question is that it makes no difference?

The pipes are just as likely to freeze in that crawlspace on a

night when the windchill is 0F, as they are when the windchill is

20F, even though the outside air is 20F, both nights?



If the wind speed at the surface of the pipe is not zero,

you expect the pipes to freeze more quickly. How much more quickly

depends on many factors...ALL of which are more important than

that number scrolling across the bottom of your TV screen.



You don't need the windspeed at the pipe. The windspeed at the
pipe could be very low. The pipe could be out of the main
wind. But a 35mph 15F wind blowing into a drafty crawlspace
through a couple of openings could still drop the temp of the
rest of the crawlspace low enough to freeze the pipes, even
if the air around the pipes is barely moving. Your house gets
heated/cooled from a relatively modest amount of air blowing out
of registers.





In my crawlspace it's 55F year round virtually independent of

wind speed...because I pay attention to all those other factors

that are way more important than the windchill number scrolling

across the TV.


Which doesn't change the fact that windchill has an effect on
inanimate objects and can lead to pipes freezing where with no
windchill, they would not have.

Here, from the Weather Channel:
http://www.weather.com/activities/ho...e_prevent.html


"Pipes in attics, crawl spaces and outside walls are all vulnerable to freezing, especially if there are cracks or openings that allow cold, outside air to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has shown that €œwind chill,€� the cooling effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can play a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pipes."


From City of Rochester:

http://www.rochesternh.net/public_Do...ER%20PIPES.pdf
"Pipes inside or outside walls, or in an enclosed area can freeze,
especially when the wind-chill factor is well below zero and heat is
not circulating in those areas."

On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 12:59:03 AM UTC-5, nestork wrote:
'mike[_22_ Wrote:

;3178136']

When should homeowners be alert to the danger of freezing pipes? That

depends, but in southern states and other areas where freezing weather

is the exception rather than the rule (and where houses often do not

provide adequate built-in protection), the temperature alert threshold

is 20�F.





I fully understand that in some parts of your country, "winter" is when

you put on a sweater before going outside.



But, I don't understand why architects can't design homes where the

potable water supply piping always runs up through interior walls so

that people don't have to be concerned about their pipes cracking the

odd time the temperature does drop below 20 deg. F.


I would think in most cases, the architect probably doesn't even
get to the level of detail that shows exactly where the pipes run
and even if they do, plumbers probably do what they feel like. The
plumber runs them where it's easy. Classic case is a kitchen sink
which usually has a window, so it's in the middle of an outside wall.
Not so easy to run pipes to that, versus coming straight up from
the basement. In some houses in colder climates, I've seen where they
run them up throught the floor for that instead of in the wall where
they are hidden, out of the way, etc.

The main thing the architect can do is avoid putting fixtures where
the natural way to get to them would be via an outside wall. In the
new construction here in NJ that I've seen recently, the only pipes
that are in an outside wall have been for the kitchen sink mentioned
above. In my house, built in 1983, the kitchen sink and one bathroom
toilet line are in outside walls.






Alternatively, why not fasten electric heating cables to those pipes and

insulate the assembly to eliminate that risk? You could have a switch

somewheres that turns on the power to those heating cables, and a

thermostat on each cable that maintains the temperature of the pipe at

45 deg. F, say, for good economy.



It just seems to me that the cost of preventing the pipes from freezing

is small, but the cost of repairing water damage from a cracked water

pipe is large, so why not spend a little bit up front to avoid paying a

lot later on down the road.









--

nestork

On 01/07/2014 07:28 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

8:25 AM, about an hour and a half later.
Hot works in the kitchen,and a little bit
in the bathroom sink. Lost the cold in the
bathroom sink. Shower and tub diverter seems
frozen. The WH cabinet has vent which is wide
open, about 12 x 18 inches, and the wind is
blowing from that direction. I'm rigging a
patch for that vent grille, cover that.

My fingers are serious cold, and I'm not enjoying
being out in the cold. Wishing I had a caged 100
watt light bulb I could put out there. And wait
for it to thaw.




Yesterday it was -15F with a wind-chill of -40


I spent 60 seconds outside.
The cat spent 60 seconds outside

and my wife spent 5 seconds outside.


I'm heading out again now but will be back inside soon!

On 1/7/2014 8:28 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Tues Jan 07, 2014, 07:00 AM

My outdoor thermometer says -1F.

Something froze. My hot water isn't flowing.
Cold is fine. I'll be outdoors in a few minutes
with electric heat gun, trying to thaw pipes.
Not going to use a torch.

8:25 AM, about an hour and a half later.
Hot works in the kitchen,and a little bit
in the bathroom sink. Lost the cold in the
bathroom sink. Shower and tub diverter seems
frozen. The WH cabinet has vent which is wide
open, about 12 x 18 inches, and the wind is
blowing from that direction. I'm rigging a
patch for that vent grille, cover that.

My fingers are serious cold, and I'm not enjoying
being out in the cold. Wishing I had a caged 100
watt light bulb I could put out there. And wait
for it to thaw.

9:34 AM. Took a ceramic space heater, and put in
the WH cabinet. Now the bath tub faucets work,
kitchen sink works, but bathroom sink barely dribbles,
either hot or cold, barely dribbles.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 1/7/2014 9:19 AM, philo wrote:
On 01/07/2014 07:28 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

My fingers are serious cold, and I'm not enjoying
being out in the cold. Wishing I had a caged 100
watt light bulb I could put out there. And wait
for it to thaw.

Yesterday it was -15F with a wind-chill of -40


I spent 60 seconds outside.
The cat spent 60 seconds outside

and my wife spent 5 seconds outside.


I'm heading out again now but will be back inside soon!

For my next trick, I'll see if the truck starts.
Never totally sure, these days.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 01/07/2014 08:40 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On

I'm heading out again now but will be back inside soon!

For my next trick, I'll see if the truck starts.
Never totally sure, these days.




I am not even going to try to start my car...but it probably would start
as I put in a new battery a few months ago.

On 1/7/2014 9:35 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
8:25 AM, about an hour and a half later.
Hot works in the kitchen,and a little bit
in the bathroom sink. Lost the cold in the
bathroom sink. Shower and tub diverter seems
frozen. The WH cabinet has vent which is wide
open, about 12 x 18 inches, and the wind is
blowing from that direction. I'm rigging a
patch for that vent grille, cover that.

My fingers are serious cold, and I'm not enjoying
being out in the cold. Wishing I had a caged 100
watt light bulb I could put out there. And wait
for it to thaw.

9:34 AM. Took a ceramic space heater, and put in
the WH cabinet. Now the bath tub faucets work,
kitchen sink works, but bathroom sink barely dribbles,
either hot or cold, barely dribbles.

Find some old slip joint pliers from HF. Remove
aerator, and bang it on the counter to remove the
particles of crud. Faucet works better, now.

I guess I found out that when it's -2F and blowing
in from the direction of the WH cabinet, that I need
to leave a pipe dribble. I have also blocked the
vent opening, and will some day maybe wrap the
pipes back there, which are not wrapped. And it's
only 10 AM.

for my next trick, I'll try to start the car.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 1/7/2014 9:43 AM, philo wrote:
For my next trick, I'll see if the truck starts.
Never totally sure, these days.




I am not even going to try to start my car...but it probably would start
as I put in a new battery a few months ago.

Perhaps. best wishes that you and all the readers
of this list are OK. This serious cold makes me
appreciate natural gas, and electricity.

I didn't expect to be personally the subject of
the frozen pipes, but good to know I've got a team
of people cheering for me.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 10:03:26 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 1/7/2014 9:35 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

8:25 AM, about an hour and a half later.

Hot works in the kitchen,and a little bit

in the bathroom sink. Lost the cold in the

bathroom sink. Shower and tub diverter seems

frozen. The WH cabinet has vent which is wide

open, about 12 x 18 inches, and the wind is

blowing from that direction. I'm rigging a

patch for that vent grille, cover that.



My fingers are serious cold, and I'm not enjoying

being out in the cold. Wishing I had a caged 100

watt light bulb I could put out there. And wait

for it to thaw.



9:34 AM. Took a ceramic space heater, and put in

the WH cabinet. Now the bath tub faucets work,

kitchen sink works, but bathroom sink barely dribbles,

either hot or cold, barely dribbles.



Find some old slip joint pliers from HF. Remove

aerator, and bang it on the counter to remove the

particles of crud. Faucet works better, now.



I guess I found out that when it's -2F and blowing

in from the direction of the WH cabinet, that I need

to leave a pipe dribble. I have also blocked the

vent opening, and will some day maybe wrap the

pipes back there, which are not wrapped. And it's

only 10 AM.



for my next trick, I'll try to start the car.




Persuant to your original question, do you think those pipes that froze were more likely to freeze with a lower reported windchill or not?

On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 9:05:05 AM UTC-6, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I didn't expect to be personally the subject of

the frozen pipes, but good to know I've got a team

of people cheering for me.


Nobody's cheering when you write stuff like this..."and will some day maybe wrap the
pipes back there, which are not wrapped." Duh!

On 1/7/2014 12:59 AM, nestork wrote:


But, I don't understand why architects can't design homes where the
potable water supply piping always runs up through interior walls so
that people don't have to be concerned about their pipes cracking the
odd time the temperature does drop below 20 deg. F.

Alternatively, why not fasten electric heating cables to those pipes and
insulate the assembly to eliminate that risk? You could have a switch
somewheres that turns on the power to those heating cables, and a
thermostat on each cable that maintains the temperature of the pipe at
45 deg. F, say, for good economy.

It just seems to me that the cost of preventing the pipes from freezing
is small, but the cost of repairing water damage from a cracked water
pipe is large, so why not spend a little bit up front to avoid paying a
lot later on down the road.

Most of the problems are in older homes, not ones built in the past 30
or even 50+ years when good insulation and proper building techniques
are used. The other problems seems to be in homes build in moderate
climates that suddenly have a cold spell normally not found there.
Houses and trailers that have open crawl spaces. With tens of thousands
of older houses in this country there will always be frozen pipes, but
it is a rarity in millions of new homes because they do build them
properly.

On 1/7/2014 8:05 AM, wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2014 3:32:18 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



It would help if you didn't edit out the pertinent part you're responding
to and would at least answer the simple questions posed.
I gave you two examples:

"The answer is both of them. At 0F, it's cold enough to freeze
pipes. And depending on where the pipes are, they can be
affected by the windchill. Again, just two examples:

A - Pipes are in a cabin with no heat. Do you think the cabin
inside temp will be the same overnight as the temp drops without
regard to what the windchill is? If the reported windchill was
large, would you not agree that the pipes are going to be
more likely to freeze?

B - Pipes in a drafty crawlspace. "


The temps that the crawlspace reaches on a cold night is
affected by the windchill. So is the temperature that an
unheated cabin will reach inside. With significant windchill
they could reach temps overnight that they would not reach
without windchill. It's that simple.


No, they are affected by the wind, but not the windchill. Different
things. You may not agree, but the definition of windchill factor was to
tell a human how it is going to feel to the skin when outside. They can
put a value on it. The wind may affect the rate of cooling in a draft,
but it does not have the same numerical value and it can never go below
the actual temperature.

You can make up any definition you want, but that does not change the
real meaning.

Oh, you also ignore my example of a temperature of 35 degrees and a
wndchill of 20 degrees. Will the pipes freeze? NO

On 1/7/2014 10:35 AM, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 9:05:05 AM UTC-6, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I didn't expect to be personally the subject of
the frozen pipes, but good to know I've got a team
of people cheering for me.

Nobody's cheering when you write stuff like this..."and will some day maybe wrap the
pipes back there, which are not wrapped." Duh!

And perhaps you might want to ask why? Naah,
don't bother.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 1/7/2014 8:30 AM, wrote:



Yes, but they won't freeze if the air temperature is 33 degrees and the

wind chill is 20. See the difference?



Yes I do. But continuing to use cases where the temp is above
freezing doesn't show that the lower the reported windchill, the
more likely pipes in a drafty crawlspace or an unheated cabin
are to freeze when the temps are well below freezing. Again the
qustion posed wasn't about 35F. It was about a day with 0F actual,
-10F windchill.

My point is, wind chill does not cause the pipes to freeze. Wind may
make them freeze sooner but the overall affect is the same. If your
example was correct, a 35 degree temperature with a 20 degree wind chill
factor would freeze the pipes. PIPES HAVE NO FEELING

On 1/7/2014 8:32 AM, wrote:

Yes and the Weather Channel, City of Rochester, Univ of Illinois all
say you've lost:

I read it on the internet so it is true.


Here, from the Weather Channel:
http://www.weather.com/activities/ho...e_prevent.html


"Pipes in attics, crawl spaces and outside walls are all vulnerable to freezing, especially if there are cracks or openings that allow cold, outside air to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has shown that €œwind chill,€� the cooling effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can play a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pipes."


No ****, we've said that. But the actual temperature must be below 32,
not just the wind chill factor.



From City of Rochester:

http://www.rochesternh.net/public_Do...ER%20PIPES.pdf
"Pipes inside or outside walls, or in an enclosed area can freeze,
especially when the wind-chill factor is well below zero and heat is
not circulating in those areas."

With the wind chill below zero, the actual temperature will be below 32F
so pipes freeze. Nothing new, it has worked that way for centuries.
See "Law of Physics" Wind will ten to blow out warm air and bring in
cold air. But the chill factor is not a factor. Temperature must be
32F or below.

On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 11:22:34 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/7/2014 8:05 AM, wrote:

On Monday, January 6, 2014 3:32:18 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:







It would help if you didn't edit out the pertinent part you're responding

to and would at least answer the simple questions posed.

I gave you two examples:



"The answer is both of them. At 0F, it's cold enough to freeze

pipes. And depending on where the pipes are, they can be

affected by the windchill. Again, just two examples:



A - Pipes are in a cabin with no heat. Do you think the cabin

inside temp will be the same overnight as the temp drops without

regard to what the windchill is? If the reported windchill was

large, would you not agree that the pipes are going to be

more likely to freeze?



B - Pipes in a drafty crawlspace. "





The temps that the crawlspace reaches on a cold night is

affected by the windchill. So is the temperature that an

unheated cabin will reach inside. With significant windchill

they could reach temps overnight that they would not reach

without windchill. It's that simple.





No, they are affected by the wind, but not the windchill.

The windchill is dirctly affected by the wind. You can't have one
without the other. How hard is that to understand?

And the fact that you won't answer the very simple questions posed
shows that you've lost the argument. I've answered ALL your questions,
but you won't answer mine, which go to the core of the issue.

Here they are again:

A - Pipes are in a cabin with no heat. Do you think the cabin

inside temp will be the same overnight as the temp drops without

regard to what the windchill is? If the reported windchill was

large, would you not agree that the pipes are going to be

more likely to freeze?



Answer?



B - Pipes in a drafty crawlspace. "


Anser?


Different

things. You may not agree, but the definition of windchill factor was to

tell a human how it is going to feel to the skin when outside.

What it was created for and what it effects are two very different
things. Ask NOAA, Weather Channel, University of IL, etc. They
clearly say that the lower the windchill, the more likely pipes are
to freeze.



They can

put a value on it.

A value on an arbitrary scale. So what? Show us where the creators
of the windchill said it doesn't have an effect on inanimate objects.
NOAA among the others I listed as references say it does.



The wind may affect the rate of cooling in a draft,

but it does not have the same numerical value and it can never go below

the actual temperature.



I never said it could go below the actual temperature. Try responding
in the context of the discussion. Did you even read it?

It was with a temp of 0F and a wind chill of -10F. Last time I checked
those conditions are well below freezing on planet earth. What planet
are you on?




You can make up any definition you want, but that does not change the

real meaning.



I haven't made up anything or defined anything. Stop lying.




Oh, you also ignore my example of a temperature of 35 degrees and a

wndchill of 20 degrees. Will the pipes freeze? NO

Wow! What a revelation! Maybe Stormin can weigh in on whether he
thought his pipes could freeze when it was 35. He specifically
said it was 0F with a windchill of -10F

Idiot.

On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 11:38:04 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/7/2014 8:30 AM, wrote:







Yes, but they won't freeze if the air temperature is 33 degrees and the



wind chill is 20. See the difference?







Yes I do. But continuing to use cases where the temp is above

freezing doesn't show that the lower the reported windchill, the

more likely pipes in a drafty crawlspace or an unheated cabin

are to freeze when the temps are well below freezing. Again the

qustion posed wasn't about 35F. It was about a day with 0F actual,

-10F windchill.



My point is, wind chill does not cause the pipes to freeze.

BS. NOAA, Weather Channel, and Univ or Illinois, among others,
say you're wrong. How hard is it to understand that if it's
20F outside and the reported windchill is 0F, that it's more
likely that pipes in a drafty crawlspace, an unheated cabin,
will freeze? Apparently it's not that hard to understand, but
you refuse to answer the simple questions posed that show you're
wrong:

A - Pipes are in a cabin with no heat. Do you think the cabin

inside temp will be the same overnight as the temp drops without

regard to what the windchill is? If the reported windchill was

large, would you not agree that the pipes are going to be

more likely to freeze?



B - Pipes in a drafty crawlspace. "






Wind may

make them freeze sooner but the overall affect is the same.

Gee and when do you have wind? With a windchill that is the same
as the outside temp or with a windchill that is 20F BELOW the
outside temp? Again, as I've said many times now, suppose it's
35F outside. You have an unheated cabin or a drafy crawlspace.
Overnight, it forecasted to go down to 20F. Two cases:

A - windchill is 20F

B - windchill is -10F

Are you going to tell us that the liklihood of the pipes
freezing overnight are the same in both cases?

Good grief.



If your

example was correct, a 35 degree temperature with a 20 degree wind chill

factor would freeze the pipes. PIPES HAVE NO FEELING

My example above is correct. And again, from the OP, the conditions
of the question were a temp of 0F and a winchill of -10F. So stop
with the 35F, idiot.

On 1/7/2014 11:38 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

My point is, wind chill does not cause the pipes to freeze. Wind may
make them freeze sooner but the overall affect is the same. If your
example was correct, a 35 degree temperature with a 20 degree wind chill
factor would freeze the pipes. PIPES HAVE NO FEELING

With wind chill, the pipes freeze sooner. That's good
to know, because it's only cold and windy for certain
number of hours. Thanks for the answer.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 11:43:37 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/7/2014 8:32 AM, wrote:



Yes and the Weather Channel, City of Rochester, Univ of Illinois all

say you've lost:



I read it on the internet so it is true.



Typical canard. Does that make everything on the internet untrue?
NOAA is wrong? Univ of Illinois? City of Rochester? BTW, where
are your references, besides your flapping gums?






Here, from the Weather Channel:

http://www.weather.com/activities/ho...e_prevent.html





"Pipes in attics, crawl spaces and outside walls are all vulnerable to freezing, especially if there are cracks or openings that allow cold, outside air to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has shown that €œwind chill,€� the cooling effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can play a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pipes."





No ****, we've said that. But the actual temperature must be below 32,

not just the wind chill factor.







From City of Rochester:



http://www.rochesternh.net/public_Do...ER%20PIPES.pdf

"Pipes inside or outside walls, or in an enclosed area can freeze,

especially when the wind-chill factor is well below zero and heat is

not circulating in those areas."



With the wind chill below zero, the actual temperature will be below 32F

so pipes freeze. Nothing new, it has worked that way for centuries.

See "Law of Physics" Wind will ten to blow out warm air and bring in

cold air. But the chill factor is not a factor. Temperature must be

32F or below.


Non response to all the factual evidence noted.

On Tue, 7 Jan 2014 05:20:02 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Sunday, January 5, 2014 3:41:27 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/5/2014 9:41 AM, wrote:

Snip

The reported windchill is directly dependent on the wind.
Let's say the weatherman was giving his report and you missed
what he said about the wind. Let's look at two different
reports:

A - It's currently 35F and it's going to drop to 20F overnight
with a windchill of 20F.

B - It's currently 35F and it's going to drop to 20F overnight
with a windchill of 0F.

You have a drafty crawlspace or an unheated cabin. Would you
think there is more reason to be concerned about pipes freezing
overnight in case A or B?

Either scenario could result in frozen pipes. What's your point?

Snip

BS. The windchill is directly dependent on windspeed. It can
be used as a proxy for windspeed. If the forecasted temp is
20F and the windchill is also 20F, what does that tell you about
the wind?: no wind. If it's forecsted to be 20F with a windchill
of 0F, that tells you there is going to be a strong wind and you
should be more concerned about pipes freezing in a draft crawspace,
unheated cabin, etc.

The only difference in either scenario is time. Wind chill is
irrelevant.

On Tue, 7 Jan 2014 05:38:06 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

You don't need the windspeed at the pipe. The windspeed at the
pipe could be very low. The pipe could be out of the main
wind. But a 35mph 15F wind blowing into a drafty crawlspace
through a couple of openings could still drop the temp of the
rest of the crawlspace low enough to freeze the pipes, even
if the air around the pipes is barely moving. Your house gets
heated/cooled from a relatively modest amount of air blowing out
of registers.

Your above statement is absolutely correct. The wind chill in your
above example is unknown and irrelevant because the temp is 32° F or
below. Because of the air temperature the pipes could freeze. The
fact that the wind is blowing will only decrease the time required.
That's all I've been saying.

Snip

Here, from the Weather Channel:
http://www.weather.com/activities/ho...e_prevent.html


"Pipes in attics, crawl spaces and outside walls are all vulnerable to freezing, especially if there are cracks or openings that allow cold, outside air to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has shown that €œwind chill,€? the cooling effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can play a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pipes."


From City of Rochester:

http://www.rochesternh.net/public_Do...ER%20PIPES.pdf
"Pipes inside or outside walls, or in an enclosed area can freeze,
especially when the wind-chill factor is well below zero and heat is
not circulating in those areas."

Because you found it on the Internet doesn't make it true. Hell, the
one example I gave earlier you picked apart.

On 1/7/2014 9:40 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 1/7/2014 9:19 AM, philo wrote:
I'm heading out again now but will be back inside soon!

For my next trick, I'll see if the truck starts.
Never totally sure, these days.

Got to watch for another battery charger. My "good"
one with the boost, is dead. The 6 amp was slow, but
better than nothing.

2 PM, the truck finally started. Ether didn't help.
My mechanic suggested heat on the distributor cap.
I had cleaned and WD-40 several multi pin connections.
I think the one that helped was either on the ignition
coil, or ignition module. Drove around the block, and
check the mail. Hope that helps for a while.

Still seriously cold. I need to find some indoor
activities, while my feet warm back up. I just don't
have the blood circulation to be out in the winter.

Going to be sure and leave the faucet drip, tonight.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

The difficulty that some are having with this discussion is the term "windchill"...it was expressly conceived for human safety and a standard so individuals know how to dress themselves in adverse weather conditions.
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/os/windchill/index.shtml
May be concerning things other than human we should say "heat transfer"...just my couple cents!

On 1/7/2014 1:03 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Got to watch for another battery charger. My "good"
one with the boost, is dead. The 6 amp was slow, but
better than nothing.

2 PM, the truck finally started. Ether didn't help.
My mechanic suggested heat on the distributor cap.
I had cleaned and WD-40 several multi pin connections.
I think the one that helped was either on the ignition
coil, or ignition module. Drove around the block, and
check the mail. Hope that helps for a while.

Still seriously cold. I need to find some indoor
activities, while my feet warm back up. I just don't
have the blood circulation to be out in the winter.

Going to be sure and leave the faucet drip, tonight.


You might want to yank the battery out and let it warm up
a bit, then charge it. When you need the vehicle reinstall.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 1/7/2014 10:35 AM, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 9:05:05 AM UTC-6, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I didn't expect to be personally the subject of
the frozen pipes, but good to know I've got a team
of people cheering for me.

Nobody's cheering when you write stuff like this..."and will some day maybe wrap the
pipes back there, which are not wrapped." Duh!

And perhaps you might want to ask why? Naah,
don't bother.


The "Duh" had nothing to do with wondering why the pipes aren't wrapped.

The "Duh" had to do with you telling us that some day you'll wrap the pipes
and then saying "which are not wrapped". I'm pretty sure that most us knew
that they weren't wrapped as soon as you told that some day you'll wrap
them.