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Default Wind chill and water pipes (stormy's froze)

On 1/7/2014 4:56 PM, SteveF wrote:

2 PM, the truck finally started. Ether didn't help.
My mechanic suggested heat on the distributor cap.
I had cleaned and WD-40 several multi pin connections.
I think the one that helped was either on the ignition
coil, or ignition module. Drove around the block, and
check the mail. Hope that helps for a while.


You might want to yank the battery out and let it warm up
a bit, then charge it. When you need the vehicle reinstall.



I've heard of people doing that. It's a very real
help. I haven't done it, yet. But who can tell.

--
..
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Default Wind chill and water pipes (stormy's froze)

On 1/7/2014 10:22 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Nobody's cheering when you write stuff like this..."and will some day maybe wrap the
pipes back there, which are not wrapped." Duh!

And perhaps you might want to ask why? Naah,
don't bother.



The "Duh" had nothing to do with wondering why the pipes aren't wrapped.

The "Duh" had to do with you telling us that some day you'll wrap the pipes
and then saying "which are not wrapped". I'm pretty sure that most us knew
that they weren't wrapped as soon as you told that some day you'll wrap
them.


Considering that I'd been frozen in the wind
chill pretty much all that day, I'm an easy
target for a netpick.

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Default Wind chill and water pipes (stormy's froze)

On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 06:58:05 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 1/7/2014 4:56 PM, SteveF wrote:

2 PM, the truck finally started. Ether didn't help.
My mechanic suggested heat on the distributor cap.
I had cleaned and WD-40 several multi pin connections.
I think the one that helped was either on the ignition
coil, or ignition module. Drove around the block, and
check the mail. Hope that helps for a while.


You might want to yank the battery out and let it warm up
a bit, then charge it. When you need the vehicle reinstall.



I've heard of people doing that. It's a very real
help. I haven't done it, yet. But who can tell.

At -20 a battery puts out about 1/4 of it's regular output. Not 100%
sure of the fraction - but close.
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Default Wind chill and water pipes

On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 1:19:50 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jan 2014 05:20:02 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Sunday, January 5, 2014 3:41:27 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


On 1/5/2014 9:41 AM, wrote:




Snip



The reported windchill is directly dependent on the wind.


Let's say the weatherman was giving his report and you missed


what he said about the wind. Let's look at two different


reports:




A - It's currently 35F and it's going to drop to 20F overnight


with a windchill of 20F.




B - It's currently 35F and it's going to drop to 20F overnight


with a windchill of 0F.




You have a drafty crawlspace or an unheated cabin. Would you


think there is more reason to be concerned about pipes freezing


overnight in case A or B?




Either scenario could result in frozen pipes. What's your point?



Try answering the actual question, instead of avoiding it. The
question was in which case are PIPE MORE LIKELY TO FREEZE?
Scenario B is more likely to result in frozen pipes. And I've
provided credible references that say so.

Why don't you just man up and admit that you were wrong when you
said that "Wind chill has no effect on inanimate objects"?





Snip



BS. The windchill is directly dependent on windspeed. It can


be used as a proxy for windspeed. If the forecasted temp is


20F and the windchill is also 20F, what does that tell you about


the wind?: no wind. If it's forecsted to be 20F with a windchill


of 0F, that tells you there is going to be a strong wind and you


should be more concerned about pipes freezing in a draft crawspace,


unheated cabin, etc.




The only difference in either scenario is time. Wind chill is

irrelevant.



Are you totally stupid? Does the temperature stay constant in
your world? Or does it typically vary, very commonly going
down overnight? Let's say
it's 35F out at 6PM. Overnight the temp is going down to 20F.
At 6AM it starts to rise and by 9AM, it's above freezing again.
That is a very common occurrence. If the only effect on the pipes
of windchill is how long it takes to freeze, then with a
large windchill, in that drafty crawlspace or unheated cabing
they may have enough time to freeze. Without that windchill,
the pipes are less likely to HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO FREEZE.
Good grief.

BTW, apparently you now agree that inanimate objects are affected
by windchill. That's a start.






The Weather Channel, NOAA, Univ of Illinois, City of Rochester all
say windchill has an effect on inanimate objects and the freezing
of pipes:


Here, from the Weather Channel:
http://www.weather.com/activities/ho...e_prevent.html


"Pipes in attics, crawl spaces and outside walls are all vulnerable to freezing, especially if there are cracks or openings that allow cold, outside air to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has shown that €œwind chill,€� the cooling effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can play a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pipes. "


From City of Rochester:

http://www.rochesternh.net/public_Do...ER%20PIPES.pdf
"Pipes inside or outside walls, or in an enclosed area can freeze,
especially when the wind-chill factor is well below zero and heat is
not circulating in those areas."


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Default Wind chill and water pipes

On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 11:38:04 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/7/2014 8:30 AM, wrote:







Yes, but they won't freeze if the air temperature is 33 degrees and the




wind chill is 20. See the difference?








Yes I do. But continuing to use cases where the temp is above


freezing doesn't show that the lower the reported windchill, the


more likely pipes in a drafty crawlspace or an unheated cabin


are to freeze when the temps are well below freezing. Again the


qustion posed wasn't about 35F. It was about a day with 0F actual,


-10F windchill.




My point is, wind chill does not cause the pipes to freeze. Wind may

make them freeze sooner but the overall affect is the same.


Now try thinking this through one step further. You agree that windchill
can make pipes freeze sooner. So, it's very usual for the temp to drop
below freezing overnight and then rise above freezing again in the
morning. Let's say is 35F at 6PM and it's going to drop to a low of
20F overnight, before rising above freezing by 9AM. With a windchill
of 0F, the pipes in that drafty crawspace may have enough time to freeze,
while with no windchill they may not freeze. QED, windchill matters.
On a night with a lower reported windchill number, the pipes are more
likely to freeze. That is all that I, as well as the numerous references
I've supplied are saying.

And I'd take it even further. Without regard to time, some areas of
a drafty crawlspace might NEVER make it to below freezing, depending on
the windchill. The house is supply some warmth. With a high windchill
number you have wind. That wind might be necessary to produce a steadystate
temperature below freezing where the pipes are. Without it, the pipes
might never make it below freezing even if it stays 20F outside forever.
Now, you're gonna say "But it's the wind..." Sure it's the wind, but
the wind is reflected in the windchill. If I tell you the windchill is
0F, the outside temp is 20F, you can even calculate the actual windspeed.
It's a proxy for windspeed. Ergo, when asked which number matters,
the outside temp of 10F or the windchill number of 0F in determining
if pipes will freeze, clearly the windchill number does matter. That
was the question, was it not?









If your

example was correct, a 35 degree temperature with a 20 degree wind chill

factor would freeze the pipes. PIPES HAVE NO FEELING


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Default Wind chill and water pipes

On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 1:24:53 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jan 2014 05:38:06 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



You don't need the windspeed at the pipe. The windspeed at the


pipe could be very low. The pipe could be out of the main


wind. But a 35mph 15F wind blowing into a drafty crawlspace


through a couple of openings could still drop the temp of the


rest of the crawlspace low enough to freeze the pipes, even


if the air around the pipes is barely moving. Your house gets


heated/cooled from a relatively modest amount of air blowing out


of registers.




Your above statement is absolutely correct. The wind chill in your

above example is unknown and irrelevant because the temp is 32� F or

below. Because of the air temperature the pipes could freeze. The

fact that the wind is blowing will only decrease the time required.

That's all I've been saying.



That isn't all you've been saying. You told us that "windchill has
no effect on inanimate objects" and you still won't admit that was flat
out wrong.

The windchill is relative, because one more time, the lower the
reported windchill, the higher the wind. Ergo, it's more likely
the pipes will freeze with a lower reported windchill. Windchill is
a proxy for windspeed.

And it's *not* just a matter of time. It's very common for people
to be worried about whether pipes will freeze on a night where
the temp goes significantly below zero. THAT was exactly the
question posed by Stormin that started the thread. Now if windchill
effects the amount of time it takes for pipes to freeze in a
drafty crawlspace or an unheated cabing, then it follows that
on nights where the temp drops below freezing overnight and
then returns to above freezing at 9AM, with windchill the pipes
may have enough time to freeze. With no windchill, they are less
likely to have the time to freeze. Capiche? In one case you
have frozen pipes, in the other with no windchill, you don't.

And I'd also note that it's not just a matter of time. In
a drafty crawlspace under a heated house, in some cases, with
no reported windchill, the pipes might never freeze, even if
it stays 20F outside forever, while with a big windchill reported, they
may very well freeze. Why? With the big windchill the wind
may be necessary to drop the steady state temperature below
freezing where the pipes are.




Snip



Here, from the Weather Channel:


http://www.weather.com/activities/ho...e_prevent.html






"Pipes in attics, crawl spaces and outside walls are all vulnerable to freezing, especially if there are cracks or openings that allow cold, outside air to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has shown that €œwind chill,�? the cooling effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can play a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pipes."






From City of Rochester:




http://www.rochesternh.net/public_Do...ER%20PIPES.pdf


"Pipes inside or outside walls, or in an enclosed area can freeze,


especially when the wind-chill factor is well below zero and heat is


not circulating in those areas."




Because you found it on the Internet doesn't make it true. Hell, the

one example I gave earlier you picked apart.


The one example you provided, NOAA proved you wrong. They clearly said
flat out that wind chill has an effect on inanimate objects and they
even said water pipes. Time to take off
those rose colored glasses and read what's there, instead of what you
want to make believe.

As for impeaching the internet, that canard won't fly. There isn't one
source called "the internet". I gave you NOAA, Weather Channel, City of
Rochester, etc, not some kook websites.
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Default Wind chill and water pipes (stormy's froze)

On 1/7/2014 4:56 PM, SteveF wrote:

You might want to yank the battery out and let it warm up
a bit, then charge it. When you need the vehicle reinstall.



Back about 40 years ago, I had a Karmann Ghia and not a lot of money.
I'd take the battery out every night and bring it in the house, put it
back in the morning. Did that most of January one year
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Default Wind chill and water pipes

On Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:09:13 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 1:24:53 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jan 2014 05:38:06 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



You don't need the windspeed at the pipe. The windspeed at the


pipe could be very low. The pipe could be out of the main


wind. But a 35mph 15F wind blowing into a drafty crawlspace


through a couple of openings could still drop the temp of the


rest of the crawlspace low enough to freeze the pipes, even


if the air around the pipes is barely moving. Your house gets


heated/cooled from a relatively modest amount of air blowing out


of registers.




Your above statement is absolutely correct. The wind chill in your

above example is unknown and irrelevant because the temp is 32� F or

below. Because of the air temperature the pipes could freeze. The

fact that the wind is blowing will only decrease the time required.

That's all I've been saying.



That isn't all you've been saying. You told us that "windchill has
no effect on inanimate objects" and you still won't admit that was flat
out wrong.


Wind chill has no effect on inanimate objects! Period. It's just a
number in a chart -- nothing more.

Wind can have an effect on inanimate objects. A number in a chart
cannot have an effect on an inanimate object. Period.

The windchill is relative, because one more time, the lower the
reported windchill, the higher the wind. Ergo, it's more likely
the pipes will freeze with a lower reported windchill. Windchill is
a proxy for windspeed.


You need to understand the fundamental difference between "wind"
(moving air) and "wind chill" (a composite index -- not air, just a
number).

And it's *not* just a matter of time. It's very common for people
to be worried about whether pipes will freeze on a night where
the temp goes significantly below zero. THAT was exactly the
question posed by Stormin that started the thread. Now if windchill
effects the amount of time it takes for pipes to freeze in a
drafty crawlspace or an unheated cabing, then it follows that
on nights where the temp drops below freezing overnight and
then returns to above freezing at 9AM, with windchill the pipes
may have enough time to freeze. With no windchill, they are less
likely to have the time to freeze. Capiche? In one case you
have frozen pipes, in the other with no windchill, you don't.

And I'd also note that it's not just a matter of time. In
a drafty crawlspace under a heated house, in some cases, with
no reported windchill, the pipes might never freeze, even if
it stays 20F outside forever, while with a big windchill reported, they
may very well freeze. Why? With the big windchill the wind
may be necessary to drop the steady state temperature below
freezing where the pipes are.




Snip



Here, from the Weather Channel:


http://www.weather.com/activities/ho...e_prevent.html






"Pipes in attics, crawl spaces and outside walls are all vulnerable to freezing, especially if there are cracks or openings that allow cold, outside air to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has shown that €œwind chill,�? the cooling effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can play a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pipes."






From City of Rochester:




http://www.rochesternh.net/public_Do...ER%20PIPES.pdf


"Pipes inside or outside walls, or in an enclosed area can freeze,


especially when the wind-chill factor is well below zero and heat is


not circulating in those areas."




Because you found it on the Internet doesn't make it true. Hell, the

one example I gave earlier you picked apart.


The one example you provided, NOAA proved you wrong. They clearly said
flat out that wind chill has an effect on inanimate objects and they
even said water pipes. Time to take off
those rose colored glasses and read what's there, instead of what you
want to make believe.

As for impeaching the internet, that canard won't fly. There isn't one
source called "the internet". I gave you NOAA, Weather Channel, City of
Rochester, etc, not some kook websites.



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Default Wind chill and water pipes

On Wed, 8 Jan 2014 05:25:50 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 1:19:50 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jan 2014 05:20:02 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Sunday, January 5, 2014 3:41:27 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


On 1/5/2014 9:41 AM, wrote:




Snip



The reported windchill is directly dependent on the wind.


Let's say the weatherman was giving his report and you missed


what he said about the wind. Let's look at two different


reports:




A - It's currently 35F and it's going to drop to 20F overnight


with a windchill of 20F.




B - It's currently 35F and it's going to drop to 20F overnight


with a windchill of 0F.




You have a drafty crawlspace or an unheated cabin. Would you


think there is more reason to be concerned about pipes freezing


overnight in case A or B?




Either scenario could result in frozen pipes. What's your point?



Try answering the actual question, instead of avoiding it. The
question was in which case are PIPE MORE LIKELY TO FREEZE?
Scenario B is more likely to result in frozen pipes. And I've
provided credible references that say so.

Why don't you just man up and admit that you were wrong when you
said that "Wind chill has no effect on inanimate objects"?


See my other reply.


Snip



BS. The windchill is directly dependent on windspeed. It can


be used as a proxy for windspeed. If the forecasted temp is


20F and the windchill is also 20F, what does that tell you about


the wind?: no wind. If it's forecsted to be 20F with a windchill


of 0F, that tells you there is going to be a strong wind and you


should be more concerned about pipes freezing in a draft crawspace,


unheated cabin, etc.




The only difference in either scenario is time. Wind chill is

irrelevant.



Are you totally stupid? Does the temperature stay constant in
your world? Or does it typically vary, very commonly going
down overnight?


You call me stupid when you ask questions like that?

Let's say
it's 35F out at 6PM. Overnight the temp is going down to 20F.
At 6AM it starts to rise and by 9AM, it's above freezing again.
That is a very common occurrence. If the only effect on the pipes
of windchill is how long it takes to freeze, then with a
large windchill, in that drafty crawlspace or unheated cabing
they may have enough time to freeze. Without that windchill,
the pipes are less likely to HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO FREEZE.
Good grief.

BTW, apparently you now agree that inanimate objects are affected
by windchill. That's a start.






The Weather Channel, NOAA, Univ of Illinois, City of Rochester all
say windchill has an effect on inanimate objects and the freezing
of pipes:


Here, from the Weather Channel:
http://www.weather.com/activities/ho...e_prevent.html


"Pipes in attics, crawl spaces and outside walls are all vulnerable to freezing, especially if there are cracks or openings that allow cold, outside air to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has shown that €œwind chill,€? the cooling effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can play a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pipes. "


From City of Rochester:

http://www.rochesternh.net/public_Do...ER%20PIPES.pdf
"Pipes inside or outside walls, or in an enclosed area can freeze,
especially when the wind-chill factor is well below zero and heat is
not circulating in those areas."

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On 1/8/2014 12:29 PM, wrote:

Get real! No one has said it would (though under the right
circumstances, water will freeze when the ambient air is above
"freezing"). The *fact* is that windchill also affects inanimate
objects. The numbers quoted by the newz are for *bare* *human* skin
but the effect is relevant to all objects.



Trader keeps using specific numbers for wind chill. The numbers don't
apply to inanimate objects. Wind does carry heat away faster then when
there is no wind. No one is disputing that fact.

If Trader's windchill had the same effect on inanimate objects, then a
35 degree temperature with a 20 degree windchill could freeze pipes.

Windchill is a "feel" and can have a value assigned to it.
Wind affects the rate of cooling
If windchill was the same for humans, animas and inanimate objects, then
pipes woujld freeze anyh time the windchill go below 32. Since they do
not, yhou can condlude they are not affected.

Wind---yes
Windchill---NO

Some people just refuse to see the difference

Don't take my word for it

With the bitterly cold air dominating our local news today, the phrase
“wind chill factor” is getting a great deal of well-deserved attention.
Some people are asking what it really means and when we started using it.

Before World War II, two scientists working in Antarctica first
developed the idea and coined the phrase. Paul Allman Siple and Charles
Passel based it on the cooling rate of a bottle of water that was
suspended above their hut. They developed a formula and made a chart
that was later released and became widely used in the 1970s. Then in
2001, the National Weather Service updated the formula used to calculate
the wind chill. That updated version is what we use today.

The idea behind the wind chill factor is to give people an idea of just
how quickly the cold temperatures mixed with the wind will affect humans
and animals alike. Frostbite and hypothermia are real dangers from
bitter cold, and the wind chill factor helps determine the level of
danger we face.

The formula takes into account the temperature and winds at five feet
above ground level, the average height of an adult’s face, which is
presumably the most exposed part of the body on a cold day. According to
the National Weather Service, it also “incorporates heat transfer
theory, heat loss from the body to its surroundings, during cold and
breezy/windy days.” The National Weather Service Windchill Chart states
that at a wind chill of about -19º, frost bite can occur in thirty
minutes. Of course, below that temperature, the colder it is, the faster
frostbite will happen.

You might have heard all the hype surrounding the Green Bay vs. San
Francisco game yesterday. Last week, some meteorologists were predicting
the wind chill would be colder than the famed Ice Bowl of 1967. In fact,
that forecast did not pan out, partially because in the 1960s, they were
still using the older formula, which caused the calculations to be
colder than they should have been. By the old index, the wind chill for
the Ice Bowl was -47º. By the new index, it was a warmer -36. Also, the
actual temperature in Green Bay yesterday was not nearly as cold as was
feared by some late last week.

Read more he
http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/01/...#storylink=cpy
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On 1/8/2014 12:29 PM, wrote:


Get real! No one has said it would (though under the right
circumstances, water will freeze when the ambient air is above
"freezing"). The *fact* is that windchill also affects inanimate
objects. The numbers quoted by the newz are for *bare* *human* skin
but the effect is relevant to all objects.



Not quite the same:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_chill
The human body loses heat through convection, evaporation, conduction,
and radiation.[1] The rate of heat loss by a surface through convection
depends on the wind speed above that surface. As a surface heats the air
around it, an insulating boundary layer of warm air forms against the
surface. Moving air disrupts the boundary layer, allowing for new,
cooler air to replace the warm air against the surface. The faster the
wind speed, the more readily the surface cools.
The speed of cooling has different effects on inanimate objects and
biological organisms. For inanimate objects, the effect of wind chill is
to reduce any warmer objects to the ambient temperature more quickly. It
cannot, however, reduce the temperature of these objects below the
ambient temperature, no matter how great the wind velocity. For most
biological organisms, the physiological response is to maintain surface
temperature in an acceptable range so as to avoid adverse effects. Thus,
the attempt to maintain a given surface temperature in an environment of
faster heat loss results in both the perception of lower temperatures
and an actual greater heat loss increasing the risk of adverse
effects.[citation needed]
A surface that is wet, such as a person wearing wet clothes, will lose
heat quickly because the wet cloth will conduct heat away from the body
more rapidly, and because the evaporating moisture carries away
heat.[citation needed] Conversely, humid air slows evaporation and makes
a surface feel warmer, and this is incorporated into longer wind chill
formulas. During warm months, this effect can be described in the heat
index or humidex.
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Default Wind chill and water pipes

On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 13:29:58 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/8/2014 12:29 PM, wrote:

Get real! No one has said it would (though under the right
circumstances, water will freeze when the ambient air is above
"freezing"). The *fact* is that windchill also affects inanimate
objects. The numbers quoted by the newz are for *bare* *human* skin
but the effect is relevant to all objects.



Trader keeps using specific numbers for wind chill. The numbers don't
apply to inanimate objects. Wind does carry heat away faster then when
there is no wind. No one is disputing that fact.


But it is *still* windchill. The fact is that the numbers posted in
the NEWZ only are estimates for bare human skin, so if you're going to
play the pedantic pete role, it's not accurate for even dogs (a rather
animate object).


If Trader's windchill had the same effect on inanimate objects, then a
35 degree temperature with a 20 degree windchill could freeze pipes.


Wrong. He's never said anything *close* to that.

Windchill is a "feel" and can have a value assigned to it.
Wind affects the rate of cooling
If windchill was the same for humans, animas and inanimate objects, then
pipes woujld freeze anyh time the windchill go below 32. Since they do
not, yhou can condlude they are not affected.


WRONG. You're lying, now.

Wind---yes
Windchill---NO


Wrong. It *IS* windchill. Wind is moving air. It has nothing to do
with temperature, real or imagined.

Some people just refuse to see the difference


You can't even get it straight.

Don't take my word for it


I *certainly* don't because you're *WRONG*.

With the bitterly cold air dominating our local news today, the phrase
“wind chill factor” is getting a great deal of well-deserved attention.
Some people are asking what it really means and when we started using it.

Before World War II, two scientists working in Antarctica first
developed the idea and coined the phrase. Paul Allman Siple and Charles
Passel based it on the cooling rate of a bottle of water that was
suspended above their hut. They developed a formula and made a chart
that was later released and became widely used in the 1970s. Then in
2001, the National Weather Service updated the formula used to calculate
the wind chill. That updated version is what we use today.

The idea behind the wind chill factor is to give people an idea of just
how quickly the cold temperatures mixed with the wind will affect humans
and animals alike. Frostbite and hypothermia are real dangers from
bitter cold, and the wind chill factor helps determine the level of
danger we face.


Windchill and Wind Chill Factor are different things. One is a
specific formula (or table, really). The other is an effect.

The formula takes into account the temperature and winds at five feet
above ground level, the average height of an adult’s face, which is
presumably the most exposed part of the body on a cold day. According to
the National Weather Service, it also “incorporates heat transfer
theory, heat loss from the body to its surroundings, during cold and
breezy/windy days.” The National Weather Service Windchill Chart states
that at a wind chill of about -19º, frost bite can occur in thirty
minutes. Of course, below that temperature, the colder it is, the faster
frostbite will happen.


AND IS NOT any different for animate or inanimate objects. A dog will
have a different correction than a human. If you're talking about a
specific table, so be it. That is *not* windchill. Windchill is more
general.

You might have heard all the hype surrounding the Green Bay vs. San
Francisco game yesterday. Last week, some meteorologists were predicting
the wind chill would be colder than the famed Ice Bowl of 1967. In fact,
that forecast did not pan out, partially because in the 1960s, they were
still using the older formula, which caused the calculations to be
colder than they should have been. By the old index, the wind chill for
the Ice Bowl was -47º. By the new index, it was a warmer -36. Also, the
actual temperature in Green Bay yesterday was not nearly as cold as was
feared by some late last week.


Utterly irrelevant.

Read more he
http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/01/...#storylink=cpy


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On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 9:26:53 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/7/2014 12:10 PM, wrote:



If your




example was correct, a 35 degree temperature with a 20 degree wind chill




factor would freeze the pipes. PIPES HAVE NO FEELING




My example above is correct. And again, from the OP, the conditions


of the question were a temp of 0F and a winchill of -10F. So stop


with the 35F, idiot.






When you resort to name calling it shows you lack of understanding of

issues.


I understand the issue perfectly well. So does NOAA, Weather Channel,
University of Illinois, etc. They agree with my position.



Sorry you had to sink so low and lose respect of others.


When you keep droning on about windchill when the outside
temperature is above freezing and the question was about a night
where the outside temp will drop to 0F with a windchill of 0F,
what do you expect?




That

puts me out of this now as I'm not going to wallow in the mud with you.



But you still have refused to answer about the 35 degree temperature and

20 degree windchill. IT WON'T FREEZE


I have answered it, but apparently you can't read:


Ed: "Yes, but they won't freeze if the air temperature is 33 degrees and the
wind chill is 20. See the difference?



Trader: "Yes I do. But continuing to use cases where the temp is above
freezing doesn't show that the lower the reported windchill, the
more likely pipes in a drafty crawlspace or an unheated cabin
are to freeze when the temps are well below freezing. Again the
qustion posed wasn't about 35F. It was about a day with 0F actual,
-10F windchill. "

No one here has argued that water pipes can freeze without the
actual temp being below 32F. No one is arguing that. I never said otherwise.
So, what about it. It has nothing to do with the fact that windchill
has an effect on whether pipes will freeze overnight in the case
that was posed: 0F, windchill -10F.

So, yeah, after enough of that, and then accusing me of not answering
your question, when I did, I get annoyed.

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On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 12:18:48 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Wed, 8 Jan 2014 06:09:13 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 1:24:53 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:


On Tue, 7 Jan 2014 05:38:06 -0800 (PST), "




wrote:








You don't need the windspeed at the pipe. The windspeed at the




pipe could be very low. The pipe could be out of the main




wind. But a 35mph 15F wind blowing into a drafty crawlspace




through a couple of openings could still drop the temp of the




rest of the crawlspace low enough to freeze the pipes, even




if the air around the pipes is barely moving. Your house gets




heated/cooled from a relatively modest amount of air blowing out




of registers.








Your above statement is absolutely correct. The wind chill in your




above example is unknown and irrelevant because the temp is 32� F or




below. Because of the air temperature the pipes could freeze. The




fact that the wind is blowing will only decrease the time required.




That's all I've been saying.








That isn't all you've been saying. You told us that "windchill has


no effect on inanimate objects" and you still won't admit that was flat


out wrong.




Wind chill has no effect on inanimate objects! Period. It's just a

number in a chart -- nothing more.



Now you're lying and just digging your hole deeper. I put
a brick that's 75F outside in air that's 20F. So, it cools just
as fast with a windchill of -10F as it does if the windchill is
20F? Are you that dumb?




Wind can have an effect on inanimate objects. A number in a chart

cannot have an effect on an inanimate object. Period.



You really are dumber than a brick. From NOAA:

"While exposure to low wind chills can be life threatening to both humans and animals alike, the only effect that wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as vehicles, is that it shortens the time that it takes the object to cool to the actual air temperature (it cannot cool the object down below that temperature)."

Shortening the time it takes to cool is most definitely an effect, idiot.


The windchill is relative, because one more time, the lower the


reported windchill, the higher the wind. Ergo, it's more likely


the pipes will freeze with a lower reported windchill. Windchill is


a proxy for windspeed.




You need to understand the fundamental difference between "wind"

(moving air) and "wind chill" (a composite index -- not air, just a

number).



Windchill is a number. Windspeed is a number too. You need to learn
that just because something is a composite number, does not determine
if it has an effect on something or not. Ask the NOAA, Univ of Illinois,
Weather Channel, etc. Your argument is like saying that the reported UV index,
because it's a derived number, has no effect on increased risk of
skin cancer, chlorine diminishing in pools, etc. Good grief.




And it's *not* just a matter of time. It's very common for people


to be worried about whether pipes will freeze on a night where


the temp goes significantly below zero. THAT was exactly the


question posed by Stormin that started the thread. Now if windchill


effects the amount of time it takes for pipes to freeze in a


drafty crawlspace or an unheated cabing, then it follows that


on nights where the temp drops below freezing overnight and


then returns to above freezing at 9AM, with windchill the pipes


may have enough time to freeze. With no windchill, they are less


likely to have the time to freeze. Capiche? In one case you


have frozen pipes, in the other with no windchill, you don't.




And I'd also note that it's not just a matter of time. In


a drafty crawlspace under a heated house, in some cases, with


no reported windchill, the pipes might never freeze, even if


it stays 20F outside forever, while with a big windchill reported, they


may very well freeze. Why? With the big windchill the wind


may be necessary to drop the steady state temperature below


freezing where the pipes are.



Non-response to the core of the issue noted.









Snip








Here, from the Weather Channel:




http://www.weather.com/activities/ho...e_prevent.html












"Pipes in attics, crawl spaces and outside walls are all vulnerable to freezing, especially if there are cracks or openings that allow cold, outside air to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has shown that €œwind chill,�? the cooling effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can play a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pipes."












From City of Rochester:








http://www.rochesternh.net/public_Do...ER%20PIPES.pdf




"Pipes inside or outside walls, or in an enclosed area can freeze,




especially when the wind-chill factor is well below zero and heat is




not circulating in those areas."








Because you found it on the Internet doesn't make it true. Hell, the




one example I gave earlier you picked apart.




The one example you provided, NOAA proved you wrong. They clearly said


flat out that wind chill has an effect on inanimate objects and they


even said water pipes. Time to take off


those rose colored glasses and read what's there, instead of what you


want to make believe.




As for impeaching the internet, that canard won't fly. There isn't one


source called "the internet". I gave you NOAA, Weather Channel, City of


Rochester, etc, not some kook websites.



Non-response noted again.
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On Thursday, January 9, 2014 5:59:42 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 01:05:42 -0500, wrote:









Windchill and Wind Chill Factor are different things. One is a


specific formula (or table, really). The other is an effect.








No ****. This has been most of the problem here. Terminology must be

properly used.



It's not a problem of terminology. Gordon made the silly claim that
"windchill has no effect on inanimate objects". In a new post he just made
hours ago, he still maintains that is correct, which of course it isn't.
Or do you agree with him?





You are getting closer and at least realized there is wind and the

Wind Chill factor.


Oh please. We know that and have acknowledged it from the start.
Windchill is directly related to wind speed. Give me the windchill
number and the ambient temp and I can tell you the windspeed.






Now, the is a rapper named Windschill, but the dictionary does not

have that as one word like trader is making up.



I made it up as one word?


http://www.nws.noaa.gov/os/windchill/index.shtml

Title of the chart: NWS Windchill Chart.

Good grief.

BTW, thanks for posting this gem:

"Before World War II, two scientists working in Antarctica first
developed the idea and coined the phrase. Paul Allman Siple and Charles
Passel based it on the cooling rate of a bottle of water that was
suspended above their hut. They developed a formula and made a chart
that was later released and became widely used in the 1970s."



If windchill has no effect on inanimate objects, how exactly did
they first measure it via the cooling rate of a bottle of water?
And as for it having no effect on whether something freezes, leave
a bottle of water that's 70F outside when it's 20F and the windchill
is 20F for two hours and it won't freeze solid. Do it when it's 20F
but the windchill is -10F and it will freeze solid. Capiche?

Now some pedantic loon will probably say, what size bottle, it can't
freeze in that amount of time, what if the temp was 35F, etc, but
clearly the effect is there and could be demonstrated. You just need
the right size bottle and the right amount of time. Ergo, the reported
windchill does have an effect on whether pipes may freeze, depending
on where those pipes are located.

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On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 1:33:25 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/8/2014 12:29 PM, wrote:





Get real! No one has said it would (though under the right


circumstances, water will freeze when the ambient air is above


"freezing"). The *fact* is that windchill also affects inanimate


objects. The numbers quoted by the newz are for *bare* *human* skin


but the effect is relevant to all objects.








Not quite the same:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_chill

The human body loses heat through convection, evaporation, conduction,

and radiation.[1] The rate of heat loss by a surface through convection

depends on the wind speed above that surface. As a surface heats the air

around it, an insulating boundary layer of warm air forms against the

surface. Moving air disrupts the boundary layer, allowing for new,

cooler air to replace the warm air against the surface. The faster the

wind speed, the more readily the surface cools.

The speed of cooling has different effects on inanimate objects and

biological organisms. For inanimate objects, the effect of wind chill is

to reduce any warmer objects to the ambient temperature more quickly. It

cannot, however, reduce the temperature of these objects below the

ambient temperature, no matter how great the wind velocity. For most

biological organisms, the physiological response is to maintain surface

temperature in an acceptable range so as to avoid adverse effects. Thus,

the attempt to maintain a given surface temperature in an environment of

faster heat loss results in both the perception of lower temperatures

and an actual greater heat loss increasing the risk of adverse

effects.[citation needed]

A surface that is wet, such as a person wearing wet clothes, will lose

heat quickly because the wet cloth will conduct heat away from the body

more rapidly, and because the evaporating moisture carries away

heat.[citation needed] Conversely, humid air slows evaporation and makes

a surface feel warmer, and this is incorporated into longer wind chill

formulas. During warm months, this effect can be described in the heat

index or humidex.



"I read it on the internet so it is true"

That's what you said when I gave you highly credible references like NOAA,
Weather Channel, City of Rochester, Univ of Illinois, etc. But then after
making that retort, you see fit to post from Wikepedia of all places and
that's cool, no problem.

And then it clearly says:

"For inanimate objects, the effect of wind chill is
to reduce any warmer objects to the ambient temperature more quickly. "

Now maybe you can explain it to Gordon. And how that effect can
sometimes cause pipes in a drafty location or an unheated cabin
to freeze overnight with a big windchill factor, while without the
windchill, they would not.

PS: I'm not talking about a night when it's 35F.


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On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:23:26 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Snip

Are you that dumb?


Snip

You really are dumber than a brick.


Snip

idiot.


Snip

You have no desire to listen and learn from another point of view. But
you are certainly quick to resort to your strong suit, name calling.
Your parents must be very proud.

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On Thursday, January 9, 2014 10:05:18 AM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:23:26 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



Snip



Are you that dumb?




Snip



You really are dumber than a brick.




Snip



idiot.




Snip



You have no desire to listen and learn from another point of view. But

you are certainly quick to resort to your strong suit, name calling.

Your parents must be very proud.



It's *not* a point of view issue. Your insistance that windchill only
affects inanimate objects is flat out wrong. You've been given numerous
examples:

A brick that's 75F placed outside cools faster with windchill than
it does without it.

Your buddy Ed even cited the first origin of the experiments to
determine wind chill and the used a bottle of water hung outside.
A water bottle is an inanimate object. The same bottle that is
outside for a period of time may be frozen solid with a big
windchill, while it's unfrozen with just a little windchill.

Pipes in a drafty crawlspace may freeze when the temp drops to 20F
overnight if the windchill is -10F, while they may not freeze if
the windchill is only 20F, ie no windchill.

Pipes in an unheated cabin can be more likely to freeze with a big
windchill than without.

It takes more energy to keep a house at 70F with a big windchill
than with little or no windchill.

Those are all effects on *inanimate* objects. And yeah, after enough
silly denial in the face of overwhelming evidence, you make it to my
list of dummies, incapable of either understanding science or admitting
that you're wrong.
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On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 07:27:26 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Thursday, January 9, 2014 10:05:18 AM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:23:26 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:
Snip
Are you that dumb?

Snip
You really are dumber than a brick.

Snip
idiot.

Snip
You have no desire to listen and learn from another point of view. But
you are certainly quick to resort to your strong suit, name calling.
Your parents must be very proud.


It's *not* a point of view issue. Your insistance that windchill only
affects inanimate objects is flat out wrong. You've been given numerous
examples:

A brick that's 75F placed outside cools faster with windchill than
it does without it.


All that proves is moving air will cool everything quicker than air
that is not moving. I have never disputed that. Nor has anyone else.

Your buddy Ed even cited the first origin of the experiments to
determine wind chill and the used a bottle of water hung outside.
A water bottle is an inanimate object. The same bottle that is
outside for a period of time may be frozen solid with a big
windchill, while it's unfrozen with just a little windchill.


Same answer as above.

Pipes in a drafty crawlspace may freeze when the temp drops to 20F
overnight if the windchill is -10F, while they may not freeze if
the windchill is only 20F, ie no windchill.


I'll ignore the improper inclusion of the "chill" on your third
instance of "windchill." Same answer as above.

Pipes in an unheated cabin can be more likely to freeze with a big
windchill than without.


Ditto.

It takes more energy to keep a house at 70F with a big windchill
than with little or no windchill.


Ditto. You are starting to bore me.

Those are all effects on *inanimate* objects. And yeah, after enough
silly denial in the face of overwhelming evidence, you make it to my
list of dummies, incapable of either understanding science or admitting
that you're wrong.


The evidence you speak of doesn't exist but I'm flattered to have made
to one of your lists.

Let me try another approach to explain my point of view.

First scenario:
The outside air temp is above 32 deg. F. The wind chill is any value
you want it to be below 32 deg. F.
Will the water freeze? I say no. What do you say?

Second scenario:
The outside air temp is below 32 deg. F. The wind chill is any value
you want it to be below 32 deg. F.
Will the water freeze? I say yes. What do you say?

Third scenario:
The outside air temp is above 32 deg. F. Take any or all of the wind
chill chart an place it in a glass of water.
Will the water in the glass get colder?
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On Thursday, January 9, 2014 1:17:38 PM UTC-6, Gordon Shumway wrote:


Third scenario:

The outside air temp is above 32 deg. F. Take any or all of the wind

chill chart an place it in a glass of water.

Will the water in the glass get colder?


I thought you were going to tell him to place it somewhere else! *J*

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On Thursday, January 9, 2014 2:17:38 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 07:27:26 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Thursday, January 9, 2014 10:05:18 AM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:


On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:23:26 -0800 (PST), "




wrote:


Snip


Are you that dumb?


Snip


You really are dumber than a brick.


Snip


idiot.


Snip


You have no desire to listen and learn from another point of view. But


you are certainly quick to resort to your strong suit, name calling.


Your parents must be very proud.




It's *not* a point of view issue. Your insistance that windchill only


affects inanimate objects is flat out wrong. You've been given numerous


examples:




A brick that's 75F placed outside cools faster with windchill than


it does without it.




All that proves is moving air will cool everything quicker than air

that is not moving. I have never disputed that. Nor has anyone else.



Which is exactly what windchill is all about. Look at the formula.





Your buddy Ed even cited the first origin of the experiments to


determine wind chill and the used a bottle of water hung outside.


A water bottle is an inanimate object. The same bottle that is


outside for a period of time may be frozen solid with a big


windchill, while it's unfrozen with just a little windchill.




Same answer as above.



Just as dumb as ever.




Pipes in a drafty crawlspace may freeze when the temp drops to 20F


overnight if the windchill is -10F, while they may not freeze if


the windchill is only 20F, ie no windchill.




I'll ignore the improper inclusion of the "chill" on your third

instance of "windchill." Same answer as above.



Saying 2 + 2 = 5 a few more times doesn't make it true either.



Pipes in an unheated cabin can be more likely to freeze with a big


windchill than without.




Ditto.




Saying 2 + 2 = 5 a few more times doesn't make it true either.




It takes more energy to keep a house at 70F with a big windchill


than with little or no windchill.




Ditto. You are starting to bore me.



The clueless frequently get bored because they can't understand
simple science. You can't even address the specifics of the examples.




Those are all effects on *inanimate* objects. And yeah, after enough


silly denial in the face of overwhelming evidence, you make it to my


list of dummies, incapable of either understanding science or admitting


that you're wrong.




The evidence you speak of doesn't exist but I'm flattered to have made

to one of your lists.



Of course it exists, I've given it to you about 6 times now, idiot.
Windchill has an effect not only on inanimate objects, but any
object where it can take heat away, eg pipes or a house. Animate objects
are *not* the only things that have heat that can be taken away. The
effect of windchill that makes it feel colder with wind than without
is due to the wind removing more heat from your body that without it.
The exact same effect applies to a brick or a bottle of water.
Ask Ed. He even showed you that a warm water bottle placed outside
was used to first model and experiment with windchill. Now if
windchill has no effect on inanimate objects, it's a very curious
thing that scientists used a water bottle to measure it.





Let me try another approach to explain my point of view.



First scenario:

The outside air temp is above 32 deg. F. The wind chill is any value

you want it to be below 32 deg. F.

Will the water freeze? I say no. What do you say?



Are we back to this nonsense again? Do you even read what
anyone posts here? I addressed this many times already.
So did krw. Yet, here we are again. For water that is
contained in a typical pipe example like we are talking about,
the answer has been and continues to be no, which of course
doesn't matter.

But as krw already pointed out, you've just made another obvious
gaff by trying to apply the statement to water in general.
If you put water that is 33F in a sheet pan and expose it outside
when the windchill is 10F, then I would expect you would get
some of it to freeze via evaporative cooling.

Now, I ask you, what does any of that have to do with your
claim that windchill does not affect inanimate objects?




Second scenario:

The outside air temp is below 32 deg. F. The wind chill is any value

you want it to be below 32 deg. F.

Will the water freeze? I say yes. What do you say?



It depends on what the unstated starting temperature is of the
water, the mass, how it's exposed, eg is it in a 50 gallon drum
or is it spread out in a metal pan, etc and how long the water is
then left at that cold temperature.
Is temperature static in your part of the world? Or does it
typically dip down at night? If the temp dips below freezing for
a couple hours at night, it's very easy to see that with a big
windchill water might freeze solid, where without a windchill, it
might not freeze solid or it might not even start to freeze at
all. On a night with major windchill you could have frozen pipes
that burst and with no windchill you might not, because they
either didn't freeze at all, or only partially started to freeze.





Third scenario:

The outside air temp is above 32 deg. F. Take any or all of the wind

chill chart an place it in a glass of water.

Will the water in the glass get colder?


"Take any or all of the wind chill chart and place it in a glass of
water?" Put the chart in a glass?? You're really losing it now.

And do note that I have addressed each and every example you've
given, not ignored whole sections, or diverted the discussion
to 35F, when the question was about windchill in freezing temperatures.
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On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 04:41:28 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Thursday, January 9, 2014 2:17:38 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 07:27:26 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Thursday, January 9, 2014 10:05:18 AM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:


On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:23:26 -0800 (PST), "




wrote:


Snip


Are you that dumb?


Snip


You really are dumber than a brick.


Snip


idiot.


Snip


You have no desire to listen and learn from another point of view. But


you are certainly quick to resort to your strong suit, name calling.


Your parents must be very proud.




It's *not* a point of view issue. Your insistance that windchill only


affects inanimate objects is flat out wrong. You've been given numerous


examples:




A brick that's 75F placed outside cools faster with windchill than


it does without it.




All that proves is moving air will cool everything quicker than air

that is not moving. I have never disputed that. Nor has anyone else.



Which is exactly what windchill is all about. Look at the formula.





Your buddy Ed even cited the first origin of the experiments to


determine wind chill and the used a bottle of water hung outside.


A water bottle is an inanimate object. The same bottle that is


outside for a period of time may be frozen solid with a big


windchill, while it's unfrozen with just a little windchill.




Same answer as above.



Just as dumb as ever.




Pipes in a drafty crawlspace may freeze when the temp drops to 20F


overnight if the windchill is -10F, while they may not freeze if


the windchill is only 20F, ie no windchill.




I'll ignore the improper inclusion of the "chill" on your third

instance of "windchill." Same answer as above.



Saying 2 + 2 = 5 a few more times doesn't make it true either.



Pipes in an unheated cabin can be more likely to freeze with a big


windchill than without.




Ditto.




Saying 2 + 2 = 5 a few more times doesn't make it true either.




It takes more energy to keep a house at 70F with a big windchill


than with little or no windchill.




Ditto. You are starting to bore me.



The clueless frequently get bored because they can't understand
simple science. You can't even address the specifics of the examples.




Those are all effects on *inanimate* objects. And yeah, after enough


silly denial in the face of overwhelming evidence, you make it to my


list of dummies, incapable of either understanding science or admitting


that you're wrong.




The evidence you speak of doesn't exist but I'm flattered to have made

to one of your lists.



Of course it exists, I've given it to you about 6 times now, idiot.
Windchill has an effect not only on inanimate objects, but any
object where it can take heat away, eg pipes or a house. Animate objects
are *not* the only things that have heat that can be taken away. The
effect of windchill that makes it feel colder with wind than without
is due to the wind removing more heat from your body that without it.
The exact same effect applies to a brick or a bottle of water.
Ask Ed. He even showed you that a warm water bottle placed outside
was used to first model and experiment with windchill. Now if
windchill has no effect on inanimate objects, it's a very curious
thing that scientists used a water bottle to measure it.





Let me try another approach to explain my point of view.



First scenario:

The outside air temp is above 32 deg. F. The wind chill is any value

you want it to be below 32 deg. F.

Will the water freeze? I say no. What do you say?



Are we back to this nonsense again? Do you even read what
anyone posts here? I addressed this many times already.
So did krw. Yet, here we are again. For water that is
contained in a typical pipe example like we are talking about,
the answer has been and continues to be no, which of course
doesn't matter.

But as krw already pointed out, you've just made another obvious
gaff by trying to apply the statement to water in general.
If you put water that is 33F in a sheet pan and expose it outside
when the windchill is 10F, then I would expect you would get
some of it to freeze via evaporative cooling.

Now, I ask you, what does any of that have to do with your
claim that windchill does not affect inanimate objects?




Second scenario:

The outside air temp is below 32 deg. F. The wind chill is any value

you want it to be below 32 deg. F.

Will the water freeze? I say yes. What do you say?



It depends on what the unstated starting temperature is of the
water, the mass, how it's exposed, eg is it in a 50 gallon drum
or is it spread out in a metal pan, etc and how long the water is
then left at that cold temperature.
Is temperature static in your part of the world? Or does it
typically dip down at night? If the temp dips below freezing for
a couple hours at night, it's very easy to see that with a big
windchill water might freeze solid, where without a windchill, it
might not freeze solid or it might not even start to freeze at
all. On a night with major windchill you could have frozen pipes
that burst and with no windchill you might not, because they
either didn't freeze at all, or only partially started to freeze.





Third scenario:

The outside air temp is above 32 deg. F. Take any or all of the wind

chill chart an place it in a glass of water.

Will the water in the glass get colder?


"Take any or all of the wind chill chart and place it in a glass of
water?" Put the chart in a glass?? You're really losing it now.

And do note that I have addressed each and every example you've
given, not ignored whole sections, or diverted the discussion
to 35F, when the question was about windchill in freezing temperatures.


You have not answered any of my three questions, all you have done is
babble. They all require a one word answer, either "Yes" or "No."
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On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 11:23:21 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa
wrote:

On Thursday, January 9, 2014 1:17:38 PM UTC-6, Gordon Shumway wrote:


Third scenario:

The outside air temp is above 32 deg. F. Take any or all of the wind

chill chart an place it in a glass of water.

Will the water in the glass get colder?


I thought you were going to tell him to place it somewhere else! *J*


LOL!


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On Friday, January 10, 2014 10:08:54 AM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 04:41:28 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Thursday, January 9, 2014 2:17:38 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:


On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 07:27:26 -0800 (PST), "




wrote:








On Thursday, January 9, 2014 10:05:18 AM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:




On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 05:23:26 -0800 (PST), "








wrote:




Snip




Are you that dumb?




Snip




You really are dumber than a brick.




Snip




idiot.




Snip




You have no desire to listen and learn from another point of view. But




you are certainly quick to resort to your strong suit, name calling.




Your parents must be very proud.








It's *not* a point of view issue. Your insistance that windchill only




affects inanimate objects is flat out wrong. You've been given numerous




examples:








A brick that's 75F placed outside cools faster with windchill than




it does without it.








All that proves is moving air will cool everything quicker than air




that is not moving. I have never disputed that. Nor has anyone else.








Which is exactly what windchill is all about. Look at the formula.












Your buddy Ed even cited the first origin of the experiments to




determine wind chill and the used a bottle of water hung outside.




A water bottle is an inanimate object. The same bottle that is




outside for a period of time may be frozen solid with a big




windchill, while it's unfrozen with just a little windchill.








Same answer as above.








Just as dumb as ever.










Pipes in a drafty crawlspace may freeze when the temp drops to 20F




overnight if the windchill is -10F, while they may not freeze if




the windchill is only 20F, ie no windchill.








I'll ignore the improper inclusion of the "chill" on your third




instance of "windchill." Same answer as above.








Saying 2 + 2 = 5 a few more times doesn't make it true either.








Pipes in an unheated cabin can be more likely to freeze with a big




windchill than without.








Ditto.










Saying 2 + 2 = 5 a few more times doesn't make it true either.










It takes more energy to keep a house at 70F with a big windchill




than with little or no windchill.








Ditto. You are starting to bore me.








The clueless frequently get bored because they can't understand


simple science. You can't even address the specifics of the examples.










Those are all effects on *inanimate* objects. And yeah, after enough




silly denial in the face of overwhelming evidence, you make it to my




list of dummies, incapable of either understanding science or admitting




that you're wrong.








The evidence you speak of doesn't exist but I'm flattered to have made




to one of your lists.








Of course it exists, I've given it to you about 6 times now, idiot.


Windchill has an effect not only on inanimate objects, but any


object where it can take heat away, eg pipes or a house. Animate objects


are *not* the only things that have heat that can be taken away. The


effect of windchill that makes it feel colder with wind than without


is due to the wind removing more heat from your body that without it.


The exact same effect applies to a brick or a bottle of water.


Ask Ed. He even showed you that a warm water bottle placed outside


was used to first model and experiment with windchill. Now if


windchill has no effect on inanimate objects, it's a very curious


thing that scientists used a water bottle to measure it.












Let me try another approach to explain my point of view.








First scenario:




The outside air temp is above 32 deg. F. The wind chill is any value




you want it to be below 32 deg. F.




Will the water freeze? I say no. What do you say?








Are we back to this nonsense again? Do you even read what


anyone posts here? I addressed this many times already.


So did krw. Yet, here we are again. For water that is


contained in a typical pipe example like we are talking about,


the answer has been and continues to be no, which of course


doesn't matter.




But as krw already pointed out, you've just made another obvious


gaff by trying to apply the statement to water in general.


If you put water that is 33F in a sheet pan and expose it outside


when the windchill is 10F, then I would expect you would get


some of it to freeze via evaporative cooling.




Now, I ask you, what does any of that have to do with your


claim that windchill does not affect inanimate objects?










Second scenario:




The outside air temp is below 32 deg. F. The wind chill is any value




you want it to be below 32 deg. F.




Will the water freeze? I say yes. What do you say?








It depends on what the unstated starting temperature is of the


water, the mass, how it's exposed, eg is it in a 50 gallon drum


or is it spread out in a metal pan, etc and how long the water is


then left at that cold temperature.


Is temperature static in your part of the world? Or does it


typically dip down at night? If the temp dips below freezing for


a couple hours at night, it's very easy to see that with a big


windchill water might freeze solid, where without a windchill, it


might not freeze solid or it might not even start to freeze at


all. On a night with major windchill you could have frozen pipes


that burst and with no windchill you might not, because they


either didn't freeze at all, or only partially started to freeze.












Third scenario:




The outside air temp is above 32 deg. F. Take any or all of the wind




chill chart an place it in a glass of water.




Will the water in the glass get colder?




"Take any or all of the wind chill chart and place it in a glass of


water?" Put the chart in a glass?? You're really losing it now.




And do note that I have addressed each and every example you've


given, not ignored whole sections, or diverted the discussion


to 35F, when the question was about windchill in freezing temperatures.




You have not answered any of my three questions, all you have done is

babble. They all require a one word answer, either "Yes" or "No."


You're a liar. Anyone can see that I've answered two of the three
questions in detail. The third, I can't even parse, because it makes no
sense. And the other two can't be answered with a simple yes or no,
unless you believe that a 55 galllon drum of 75F water placed outside
when it's 20F for an hour is going to freeze in like a tray of ice cubes
would.

You just don't like the answers and can't refute the science,
so the above pathetic non-response is all you're left with. I also
note that you've edited out the questions and my specific answers,
obviously because you want to run away from them.

You are indeed one of the village idiots.
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Default Wind chill and water pipes

On Friday, January 10, 2014 10:11:54 AM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 11:23:21 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa

wrote:



On Thursday, January 9, 2014 1:17:38 PM UTC-6, Gordon Shumway wrote:






Third scenario:




The outside air temp is above 32 deg. F. Take any or all of the wind




chill chart an place it in a glass of water.




Will the water in the glass get colder?




I thought you were going to tell him to place it somewhere else! *J*




LOL!


Yes, laugh, it's what many idiots do, after all.
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On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:10:24 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Snip

You have not answered any of my three questions, all you have done is

babble. They all require a one word answer, either "Yes" or "No."


You're a liar. Anyone can see that I've answered two of the three
questions in detail. The third, I can't even parse, because it makes no
sense. And the other two can't be answered with a simple yes or no,
unless you believe that a 55 galllon drum of 75F water placed outside
when it's 20F for an hour is going to freeze in like a tray of ice cubes
would.

You just don't like the answers and can't refute the science,
so the above pathetic non-response is all you're left with. I also
note that you've edited out the questions and my specific answers,
obviously because you want to run away from them.

You are indeed one of the village idiots.


Answer my three previous questions with a one word response, either a
"Yes" or "No." Are you a Democrat? That would explain a lot.
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On Friday, January 10, 2014 12:55:14 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:10:24 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



Snip



You have not answered any of my three questions, all you have done is




babble. They all require a one word answer, either "Yes" or "No."




You're a liar. Anyone can see that I've answered two of the three


questions in detail. The third, I can't even parse, because it makes no


sense. And the other two can't be answered with a simple yes or no,


unless you believe that a 55 galllon drum of 75F water placed outside


when it's 20F for an hour is going to freeze in like a tray of ice cubes


would.




You just don't like the answers and can't refute the science,


so the above pathetic non-response is all you're left with. I also


note that you've edited out the questions and my specific answers,


obviously because you want to run away from them.




You are indeed one of the village idiots.




Answer my three previous questions with a one word response, either a

"Yes" or "No." Are you a Democrat? That would explain a lot.


It figures you'd try to drag politics into a discussion where
you've lost. There are plenty of Democrats that have a better
grasp of science than you do. I did answer your questions,
factually and completely.
Your questions don't have simple yes or no answers, because you
did not define all the conditions. It's like me asking you "Did you stop
beating your wife, yes or no?", and then insisting on a yes or no
answer.


Here's the questions and my answers, again:


First scenario:

The outside air temp is above 32 deg. F. The wind chill is any value

you want it to be below 32 deg. F.

Will the water freeze? I say no. What do you say?




Are we back to this nonsense again? Do you even read what
anyone posts here? I addressed this many times already.
So did krw. Yet, here we are again. For water that is
contained in a typical pipe example like we are talking about,
the answer has been and continues to be no, which of course
doesn't matter.

But as krw already pointed out, you've just made another obvious
gaff by trying to apply the statement to water in general.
If you put water that is 33F in a sheet pan and expose it outside
when the windchill is 10F, then I would expect you would get
some of it to freeze via evaporative cooling.

Now, I ask you, what does any of that have to do with your
claim that windchill does not affect inanimate objects?





Second scenario:

The outside air temp is below 32 deg. F. The wind chill is any value

you want it to be below 32 deg. F.

Will the water freeze? I say yes. What do you say?




It depends on what the unstated starting temperature is of the
water, the mass, how it's exposed, eg is it in a 50 gallon drum
or is it spread out in a metal pan, etc and how long the water is
then left at that cold temperature.
Is temperature static in your part of the world? Or does it
typically dip down at night? If the temp dips below freezing for
a couple hours at night, it's very easy to see that with a big
windchill water might freeze solid, where without a windchill, it
might not freeze solid or it might not even start to freeze at
all. On a night with major windchill you could have frozen pipes
that burst and with no windchill you might not, because they
either didn't freeze at all, or only partially started to freeze.






Third scenario:

The outside air temp is above 32 deg. F. Take any or all of the wind

chill chart an place it in a glass of water.

Will the water in the glass get colder?



"Take any or all of the wind chill chart and place it in a glass of
water?" Put the chart in a glass?? You're really losing it now.

And do note that I have addressed each and every example you've
given, not ignored whole sections, or diverted the discussion
to 35F, when the question was about windchill in freezing temperatures.


Now I'd like an answer to a simple question. You have a house
with a drafty crawlspace. The water pipes have been known to
freeze occasionally on cold nights. Two situations:

A - It's 37F at 6PM, the temp is forecasted to drop slowly overnight
and reach a low of 20F at 3AM with no windchill.

B - It's 37F at 6PM, the temp is forecasted to drop slowly overnight
and reach a low of 20F at 3AM with a windchill of 5F.

That is all you're given. Would you be more concerned about
the pipe possibly freezing in case A or B or do you think
the probability is the same? And note I'm not demanding one
word answers, you're free to explain yourself.












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On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:47:45 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, January 10, 2014 12:55:14 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:10:24 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



Snip

Did I strike a nerve?

Answer the questions with a "yes" or "no" only. Anything else would
be as you have claimed, a non answer.


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On Friday, January 10, 2014 8:42:39 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:47:45 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Friday, January 10, 2014 12:55:14 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:


On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:10:24 -0800 (PST), "




wrote:








Snip



Did I strike a nerve?



No, I just enjoy seeing you continue to run away from any
discussion of the science involved.




Answer the questions with a "yes" or "no" only. Anything else would

be as you have claimed, a non answer.


Have you stopped beating your wife? Answer with a yes or no only.
I answered all your questions, in detail, with the science behind
it. I just posed a question to you that goes to the core of the
original question and you totally ignored it.
So, who again is not being responsive? Idiot.

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On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 05:41:24 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Snip

So, who again is not being responsive? Idiot.


I know the answer to that question. Why don't you ask the rest of the
group?
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On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:29:39 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 05:41:24 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Snip

So, who again is not being responsive? Idiot.


I know the answer to that question. Why don't you ask the rest of the
group?


You are, of course.
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