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#1
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the individual breakers. The box looks similar to this: http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the hole, which is meant for a small padlock. The problem is that the box, had a plastic tab. Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. It had a lock on it, but the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at least once a month. That affects all kinds of electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. The business owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper proof. I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something if possible. I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of legal requirements. I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. This makes me question what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? Maybe the power company????? Anyone know anything about this? One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. Anyone can cut it off, but it might be enough to discourage them. Right now all they need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. At least a cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an emergency. Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? I dont have the book. (Are the codes available online?) Gene |
#3
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
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#4
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
wrote in message ... I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the individual breakers. The box looks similar to this: http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the hole, which is meant for a small padlock. The problem is that the box, had a plastic tab. Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. It had a lock on it, but the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at least once a month. That affects all kinds of electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. The business owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper proof. I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something if possible. I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of legal requirements. I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. This makes me question what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? Maybe the power company????? Anyone know anything about this? One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. Anyone can cut it off, but it might be enough to discourage them. Right now all they need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. At least a cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an emergency. Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? I dont have the book. (Are the codes available online?) Gene I would say that just based on the lockout/tagout statutes of OSHA, there would be no problem about locking it. Just make sure the necessary people have a key or combo. Steve |
#5
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
"Steve B" wrote in message ... I would say that just based on the lockout/tagout statutes of OSHA, there would be no problem about locking it. Just make sure the necessary people have a key or combo. Steve I think you may have it backwards. OSHA is concerned about locking electrical items so no power can be applied. At work there are atleast 100 breaker panels. We put hasps on them to lock them. Later we were told that we could not do this and to take all the hasps off. Seems that it is not legal to lock a breaker in the ON position. We have to lock out each circuit in the panel when we work on them instead of locking some off and some on. The rules are very 'funny' from one time to the next and maybe even in each city. While they probably will not know, it is best to check with someone in the electrical inspector department of the area you live. |
#6
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
wrote in message ... I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the individual breakers. The box looks similar to this: http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the hole, which is meant for a small padlock. The problem is that the box, had a plastic tab. Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. It had a lock on it, but the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at least once a month. That affects all kinds of electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. The business owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper proof. I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something if possible. I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of legal requirements. I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. This makes me question what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? Maybe the power company????? Anyone know anything about this? One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. Anyone can cut it off, but it might be enough to discourage them. Right now all they need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. At least a cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an emergency. Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? I dont have the book. (Are the codes available online?) Gene The only code that matters is the one that has been adopted for your area. Enforcement of that code is up to the local electrical inspector. So, call the city or county office in your area and talk to the electrical inspector (no charge) and ask what you should do. If you can get something printed or written from the inspector's office on the subject, that's even better. It would be worth your while to go to the office and talk personally if that's possible. Once you know what to do and complete the work, you may have to have it inspected and there could be a charge for that -- or you may even need a permit (not very likely) and there is sure to be a charge for that. Anyway, work with the inspector who has probably encountered the situation before. Tomsic |
#7
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Jun 9, 4:31*am, wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:16:49 -0500, wrote: I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this: http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the box, had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at least once a month. *That affects all kinds of electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. *The business owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper proof. *I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something if possible. I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe the power company????? Anyone know anything about this? One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it off, but it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an emergency. Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book. (Are the codes available online?) Gene This comes under the definition of readily accessible. You are allowed to put disconnects and overcurrent devices behind a locked door to prevent access by unauthorized persons as long as all tenants have a key. The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get in. The NFPA 70 handbook says "The definition of readily accessible does not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access is necessary have a key (or lock combination) available." You are so full of ****, may AHJ's require total access to buildings protected by a fire alarm system which is connected to the fire departments dispatcher... So yes, given the commercial occupancy access to the main utility cut offs no matter what flavor is something the fire department will have a say over... A lock box containing keys which open the whole building is how a lot of those AHJ's define "readily accessible"... |
#8
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
wrote:
I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the individual breakers. The box looks similar to this: http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the hole, which is meant for a small padlock. The problem is that the box, had a plastic tab. Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. It had a lock on it, but the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at least once a month. That affects all kinds of electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. The business owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper proof. I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something if possible. I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of legal requirements. I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. This makes me question what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? Maybe the power company????? Anyone know anything about this? One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. Anyone can cut it off, but it might be enough to discourage them. Right now all they need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. At least a cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an emergency. Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? I dont have the book. (Are the codes available online?) Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage a/c compressor coil thieves. A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it. |
#9
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Jun 9, 4:16*am, wrote:
I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this:http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the box, had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at least once a month. *That affects all kinds of electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. *The business owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper proof. *I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something if possible. I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe the power company????? Anyone know anything about this? One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it off, but it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an emergency. Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book. (Are the codes available online?) Gene It sounds more like the business whose electrical service is arranged in this manner got hosed by the contractor which installed that particular style of enclosure given its location and the fact that it can be tampered with... You should look at what possible replacements you could install which would be more tamper resistant... Installing an accessory padlock hasp on the particular enclosure you have now might only result in damage to the enclosure the next time the pranksters want to play at flipping the switch... Is that the only means of service disconnect ? Is the meter can located adjacent to it ? Is the breaker panel inside main lug only or does it have an additional means of disconnect {a main breaker) also ? It seems like the question to ask is why that specific type of equipment was installed... Was it required by the AHJ or was it just the best the contractor who installed it could cobble together ? |
#10
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 14:53:34 -0400, wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 10:56:14 -0700 (PDT), Evan wrote: On Jun 9, 4:31Â*am, wrote: On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:16:49 -0500, wrote: I have a friend who runs a business. Â*Their main breaker is on the outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Â*Inside the building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the individual breakers. Â*The box looks similar to this: http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the hole, which is meant for a small padlock. Â*The problem is that the box, had a plastic tab. Â*Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. Â*It had a lock on it, but the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at least once a month. Â*That affects all kinds of electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. Â*The business owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper proof. Â*I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something if possible. I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of legal requirements. Â*I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. Â*This makes me question what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? Â*Maybe the power company????? Anyone know anything about this? One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. Â*Anyone can cut it off, but it might be enough to discourage them. Â*Right now all they need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. Â*At least a cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an emergency. Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? Â*I dont have the book. (Are the codes available online?) Gene This comes under the definition of readily accessible. You are allowed to put disconnects and overcurrent devices behind a locked door to prevent access by unauthorized persons as long as all tenants have a key. The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get in. The NFPA 70 handbook says "The definition of readily accessible does not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access is necessary have a key (or lock combination) available." You are so full of ****, may AHJ's require total access to buildings protected by a fire alarm system which is connected to the fire departments dispatcher... So yes, given the commercial occupancy access to the main utility cut offs no matter what flavor is something the fire department will have a say over... A lock box containing keys which open the whole building is how a lot of those AHJ's define "readily accessible"... And your qualifications to call someone who quotes NFPA "full of ****" is ??? Cite the NEC rule that says the disconnect can't be inside a locked door. Darn thing should be INSIDE the building, for starters. In the office building where I work every morning, both the main transformer vault and the electrical service room, which contains a couple smaller transformers, main disconnect, several timers and 2 sub panels are under lock and key at all times. 2 other sub-panels are located in the kitchen. All 4 sub-panels have key-locks on the doors, but are not locked. This is in Canada - so could be different in the USA. |
#11
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in
m: "Steve B" wrote in message ... I would say that just based on the lockout/tagout statutes of OSHA, there would be no problem about locking it. Just make sure the necessary people have a key or combo. Steve I think you may have it backwards. OSHA is concerned about locking electrical items so no power can be applied. At work there are atleast 100 breaker panels. We put hasps on them to lock them. Later we were told that we could not do this and to take all the hasps off. Seems that it is not legal to lock a breaker in the ON position. We have to lock out each circuit in the panel when we work on them instead of locking some off and some on. The rules are very 'funny' from one time to the next and maybe even in each city. While they probably will not know, it is best to check with someone in the electrical inspector department of the area you live. In our TEKTRONIX field service center,we had a master cutoff button in the middle of the shop,easily accessible,that would shut down the entire shop's power,in case of someone getting "connected" while working on an energized instrument. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at localnet dot com |
#12
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:16:49 -0500, wrote: I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the individual breakers. The box looks similar to this: http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg . . . . , Anyone know anything about this? . . . . , Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? I dont have the book. (Are the codes available online?) Is the National Electrical Code available online? -- Yes, he http://www.garnernc.gov/Publications...cal%20Code.pdf It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to set up a free account or log in. This comes under the definition of readily accessible. You are allowed to put disconnects and overcurrent devices behind a locked door to prevent access by unauthorized persons as long as all tenants have a key. The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get in. The NFPA 70 handbook says "The definition of readily accessible does not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access is necessary have a key (or lock combination) available." Thanks for that answer. I am interested in the same question as the OP about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main cutoff. From what you wrote, it seems like it is okay. Maybe also giving a copy of the key to the local fire department would be considered the appropriate protocol. But, if it is a small padlock, all local fire departments carry bolt cutters on their vehicles so cutting off the padlock in the event of an emergency would be no problem for them even without a key. Do you happen to know where the citation in the NEC about this is located? The free online version of the NEC is a little cumbersome to use so finding the correct citation is sometimes a problem. For those who posted that the contractor should not have put the main cutoff outside, that is a requirement in some areas for some types of buildings (commercial, multiple dwellings, etc). And, my understanding is that the purpose is so that the local fire department can cut off the power in an emergency. |
#13
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:16:49 -0500, wrote:
Anyone know anything about this? I do know you NYM shift, regularly. On a daily basis. What say you? |
#14
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Jun 9, 4:17*pm, Jim Yanik wrote:
"Ralph Mowery" wrote innews:WKWdndpRJNlaH07SnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@earthlink. com: "Steve B" wrote in message ... I would say that just based on the lockout/tagout statutes of OSHA, there would be no problem about locking it. *Just make sure the necessary people have a key or combo. Steve I think you may have it backwards. *OSHA is concerned about locking electrical items so no power can be applied. At work there are atleast 100 breaker panels. *We put hasps on them to lock them. *Later we were told that we could not do this and to take all the hasps off. *Seems that it is not legal to lock *a breaker in the ON position. *We have to lock out each circuit in the panel when we work on them instead of locking some off and some on. The rules are very 'funny' from one time to the next and maybe even in each city. While they probably will not know, it is best to check with someone in the electrical inspector department of the area you live. In our TEKTRONIX field service center,we had a master cutoff button in the middle of the shop,easily accessible,that would shut down the entire shop's power,in case of someone getting "connected" while working on an energized instrument. -- Jim Yanik we had that at my technical school, a master safety off. the room has been reused for other things but the wood floor and that buttons box are still there unused..... electronics has morphed into computers, my step son is taking that class...... good old AW Beattie tech school, now renamed career center |
#15
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:18:01 -0400, "TomR" wrote:
(Are the codes available online?) Is the National Electrical Code available online? -- Yes, he http://www.garnernc.gov/Publications...cal%20Code.pdf It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to set up a free account or log in. You can save it (all 840 pages) on your hard drive as a PDF file. Then, as you see below, you can copy and paste. Thanks for the link. IMPORTANT NOTICES AND DISCLAIMERS CONCERNING NFPA DOCUMENTS NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER OF LIABILITY CONCERNING THE USE OF NFPA DOCUMENTS NFPA codes, standards, recommended practices, and guides, of which the document contained herein is one, are developed through a consensus standards development process approved by the American National Standards Institute. This process brings together volunteers representing varied viewpoints and interests to achieve consensus on fire and other safety issues. While the NFPA administers the process and establishes rules to promote fairness in the development of consensus, it does not independently test, evaluate, or verify the accuracy of any information or the soundness of any judgments contained in its codes and standards. |
#16
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Jun 9, 4:18*pm, "TomR" wrote:
wrote: On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:16:49 -0500, wrote: I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this: http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg . . . . , Anyone know anything about this? . . . . , Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book. (Are the codes available online?) Is the National Electrical Code available online? -- Yes, hehttp://www..garnernc.gov/Publication...0National%20El... It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to set up a free account or log in. This comes under the definition of readily accessible. You are allowed to put disconnects and overcurrent devices behind a locked door to prevent access by unauthorized persons as long as all tenants have a key. The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get in. The NFPA 70 handbook says "The definition of readily accessible does not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access is necessary have a key (or lock combination) available." Thanks for that answer. *I am interested in the same question as the OP about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main cutoff. From what you wrote, it seems like it is okay. *Maybe also giving a copy of the key to the local fire department would be considered the appropriate protocol. *But, if it is a small padlock, all local fire departments carry bolt cutters on their vehicles so cutting off the padlock in the event of an emergency would be no problem for them even without a key. That's what I was thinking too. You don't necessarily need a strong lock on it. Just a small lock will discourage 99.9% of the problem. With nothing on it, any kid walking by can see it as an invitation for mischef and just open it and flip it off. With even a small padlock, they are unlikely to bother screwing with it. Also, regarding the fire department in a fire emergency, around here they typically don't go looking for the disconnect. They go looking for the meter and pull it out. If the meter is outside and accessible, then I wouldn't worry about the fire dept not being able to cut power. |
#17
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Jun 9, 2:53*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 10:56:14 -0700 (PDT), Evan wrote: On Jun 9, 4:31*am, wrote: On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:16:49 -0500, wrote: I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this: http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the box, had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at least once a month. *That affects all kinds of electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. *The business owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper proof. *I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something if possible. I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe the power company????? Anyone know anything about this? One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it off, but it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an emergency. Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book. (Are the codes available online?) Gene This comes under the definition of readily accessible. You are allowed to put disconnects and overcurrent devices behind a locked door to prevent access by unauthorized persons as long as all tenants have a key. The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get in. The NFPA 70 handbook says "The definition of readily accessible does not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access is necessary have a key (or lock combination) available." You are so full of ****, may AHJ's require total access to buildings protected by a fire alarm system which is connected to the fire departments dispatcher... So yes, given the commercial occupancy access to the main utility cut offs no matter what flavor is something the fire department will have a say over... A lock box containing keys which open the whole building is how a lot of those AHJ's define "readily accessible"... And your qualifications to call someone who quotes NFPA "full of ****" is ??? Cite the NEC rule that says the disconnect can't be inside a locked door. You are full of **** as far as this quote: "The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get in. " By your own quotation of the the NFPA regs your statement of the above is bull**** as the fire department is one entity to whom ready access to the utility cut offs is mandatory... The NEC is one set of standards which must be complied with, in commercial occupancies you can not get an certificate of occupancy unless the fire department also signs off, not just the wiring or building inspector... Having a lock on a main disconnect or having that disconnect located in a locked closet or room would not be "readily accessible" per NEC nor as defined by the fire department without providing a key which is secured in a fire department only accessible lock box... So it seems that any proposed solution which does not need both the NFPA criteria as well as the NEC (or whatever local electrical code being enforced) for being "readily accessible" would not pass muster which includes any ideas which leave the fire department wanting for a key to the main shut offs of any utility... |
#18
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Jun 9, 4:18*pm, "TomR" wrote:
wrote: On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:16:49 -0500, wrote: I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this: http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg . . . . , Anyone know anything about this? . . . . , Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book. (Are the codes available online?) Is the National Electrical Code available online? -- Yes, hehttp://www..garnernc.gov/Publication...0National%20El... It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to set up a free account or log in. This comes under the definition of readily accessible. You are allowed to put disconnects and overcurrent devices behind a locked door to prevent access by unauthorized persons as long as all tenants have a key. The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get in. The NFPA 70 handbook says "The definition of readily accessible does not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access is necessary have a key (or lock combination) available." Thanks for that answer. *I am interested in the same question as the OP about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main cutoff. From what you wrote, it seems like it is okay. *Maybe also giving a copy of the key to the local fire department would be considered the appropriate protocol. *But, if it is a small padlock, all local fire departments carry bolt cutters on their vehicles so cutting off the padlock in the event of an emergency would be no problem for them even without a key. Do you happen to know where the citation in the NEC about this is located? The free online version of the NEC is a little cumbersome to use so finding the correct citation is sometimes a problem. For those who posted that the contractor should not have put the main cutoff outside, that is a requirement in some areas for some types of buildings (commercial, multiple dwellings, etc). *And, my understanding is that the purpose is so that the local fire department can cut off the power in an emergency. What I said was, the contractor who located the main service disconnect outside should have used a more hardened enclosure... Anything made of plastic and exposed outside is not of a durable construction... Also as to the local requirements to have a means of disconnect located outside, does that requirement actually require the main over current protection device to be that means of disconnect or would a properly sized and rated weather tight NEMA safety switch in the line between the meter can and the main panel also fulfill that provision of an exterior means of shut off... |
#19
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message m... "Steve B" wrote in message ... I would say that just based on the lockout/tagout statutes of OSHA, there would be no problem about locking it. Just make sure the necessary people have a key or combo. Steve I think you may have it backwards. OSHA is concerned about locking electrical items so no power can be applied. At work there are atleast 100 breaker panels. We put hasps on them to lock them. Later we were told that we could not do this and to take all the hasps off. Seems that it is not legal to lock a breaker in the ON position. We have to lock out each circuit in the panel when we work on them instead of locking some off and some on. The rules are very 'funny' from one time to the next and maybe even in each city. While they probably will not know, it is best to check with someone in the electrical inspector department of the area you live. The procedure is the same, whether you want to leave the power on, or make sure it cannot be turned on during maintenance, either of which might cause injury or damage. I was an associate degree safety engineer, and understand the principle. Steve |
#20
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
"HeyBub" wrote A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it. They have the best hydraulic and manual bolt cutters your tax dollars can buy. They are world record holders for popping off padlocks. Steve |
#21
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Jun 9, 2:03*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
wrote: I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this: http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the box, had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at least once a month. *That affects all kinds of electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. *The business owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper proof. *I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something if possible. I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe the power company????? Anyone know anything about this? One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it off, but it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an emergency. Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book. (Are the codes available online?) Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage a/c compressor coil thieves. A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it. Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the building and watch it burn until someone comes with the keys or the power company comes and disconnects the circuit to that building from the street... Which ever comes first... Fire departments don't mess with metal tools near live electrical equipment... Not when the entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting operations on scene... |
#22
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:09:15 -0700 (PDT), Evan
wrote: On Jun 9, 2:03*pm, "HeyBub" wrote: wrote: I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this: http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the box, had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at least once a month. *That affects all kinds of electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. *The business owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper proof. *I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something if possible. I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe the power company????? Anyone know anything about this? One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it off, but it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an emergency. Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book. (Are the codes available online?) Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage a/c compressor coil thieves. A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it. Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the building and watch it burn until someone comes with the keys or the power company comes and disconnects the circuit to that building from the street... Which ever comes first... Fire departments don't mess with metal tools near live electrical equipment... Not when the entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting operations on scene... You're nutz! |
#23
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
Evan wrote:
Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage a/c compressor coil thieves. A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it. Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the building and watch it burn until someone comes with the keys or the power company comes and disconnects the circuit to that building from the street... Which ever comes first... Fire departments don't mess with metal tools near live electrical equipment... Not when the entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting operations on scene... If that's the policy of YOUR fire department, it's time to move. Our firefighters are trained to deal with electrical connections, hazardous or poisonous materials, potential explosive chemicals, and virtually any other obstacle or threat they could possibly encounter. A responsible fire department certainly will not wait. For anything. About three years ago, the apartment house across the street from my place caught fire. The first piece of equipment was on the scene, so one of the commanders told me, within three minutes of the dispatch. The fire department, in short order, had FORTY-TWO pieces of equipment on the scene. I'm talking vehicles painted red that said "Fire Department." There were also unaccountably many cop cars, wreckers, and so forth. Moreover, there were - and here I'm guessing - a half dozen or more pumper trucks attached to fire plus up to seven or more blocks away awaiting the call for more water. A hundred and fifty firefighters are NOT going to be sitting around playing Scrabble waiting for a Centerpoint Energy truck to meander by. |
#24
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Jun 10, 11:09*am, Evan wrote:
On Jun 9, 2:03*pm, "HeyBub" wrote: wrote: I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this: http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the box, had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at least once a month. *That affects all kinds of electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. *The business owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper proof. *I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something if possible. I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe the power company????? Anyone know anything about this? One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it off, but it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an emergency. Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book. (Are the codes available online?) Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage a/c compressor coil thieves. A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it. Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the building and watch it burn until someone comes with the keys or the power company comes and disconnects the circuit to that building from the street... *Which ever comes first... *Fire departments don't mess with metal tools near live electrical equipment... *Not when the entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting operations on scene...- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Now what total BS. Who should I believe, Evan or my lying eyes? I've been there when a fire department responded to a house on fire. Watched one of the crew members take an axe, break the electric meter seal and pry the meter out. It came crashing to the ground. That's what real men do. And why not? It's safe and easy to do. If they followed Evans armchair advice, there would be a lot of houses burned to the ground, waiting for the power company to arrive. And what good would the disconnect in a typical house do anyway? The vast majority of them are inside the burning house. Firemen supposed to go inside to turn it off? |
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
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#26
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:18:01 -0400, "TomR" wrote: (Are the codes available online?) Is the National Electrical Code available online? -- Yes, he http://www.garnernc.gov/Publications...cal%20Code.pdf It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to set up a free account or log in. You can save it (all 840 pages) on your hard drive as a PDF file. Then, as you see below, you can copy and paste. Thanks for the link. Thanks for pointing that out. That worked. I know that the free version that is on the NFPA.org website doesn't allow cut and paste etc. I think the only reason that they post a free read-only version is to comply with a legal decision that stated that if they are going to create regulations that apply to the public (if adopted by local governmental entities), they have to make them available for free. But, I guess that since the link that I posted is from the Garner, North Carolina government website, they decided that they are entitled to post a pdf copy the regulations that they adopted (2008 NEC) and make it both free and able to be cut-and-pasted, printed, etc. I ran into a similar problem recently when I was trying to cut and past a page from the 2006 International Residential Code. The only free version that I could find online was one that would not permit a cut and paste. |
#27
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
In article ,
"Steve B" wrote: "HeyBub" wrote A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it. They have the best hydraulic and manual bolt cutters your tax dollars can buy. They are world record holders for popping off padlocks. Steve Don't they pop the meters if needed? -- People thought cybersex was a safe alternative, until patients started presenting with sexually acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz |
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
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#29
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
. . . . , I am interested in the same question as the
OP about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main cutoff. From what you wrote, it seems like it is okay. Maybe also giving a copy of the key to the local fire department would be considered the appropriate protocol. But, if it is a small padlock, all local fire departments carry bolt cutters on their vehicles so cutting off the padlock in the event of an emergency would be no problem for them even without a key. That's what I was thinking too. You don't necessarily need a strong lock on it. Just a small lock will discourage 99.9% of the problem. With nothing on it, any kid walking by can see it as an invitation for mischef and just open it and flip it off. With even a small padlock, they are unlikely to bother screwing with it. Also, regarding the fire department in a fire emergency, around here they typically don't go looking for the disconnect. They go looking for the meter and pull it out. If the meter is outside and accessible, then I wouldn't worry about the fire dept not being able to cut power. Interesting. I had not thought about the option of the fire department pulling the meter to cut the power. One reason that I am interested in this topic is that I have two properties in the same town that I bought a few years ago. One is a 2-family duplex with all separate utilities for each tenant and the other is a 3-family triplex with all separate utilities for each tenant. After buying each one, I had new electric service installed in both properties. I had the 2-family duplex done first. For that one, which already had a separate service panel in the basement for each tenant, the question came up about whether both tenants had access to the basement. The electrician explained that with new service being installed, the code required that each tenant have access to their own service panel and the main service disconnect. Since both tenants have access to the basement (and the service panels) -- meaning they each have a key to the basement -- it was okay for both service panels and main disconnects to be in the basement. As part of the new service upgrade, the electric meters for each unit were moved to the outside and mounted on the front wall of the property. From the NEC citation that gfretwell posted I found this that refers to that requirement: 230.70 (C) Access to Occupants. In a multiple-occupancy building, each occupant shall have access to the occupant's service disconnecting means. Then, when I had new service installed in the 3-family triplex, I already had service panels and a main disconnect in each of the three tenants' apartments. With the new service, I was also adding a separate "house" panel for the outside lighting etc. And, as before, I was having the electric meters moved to the outside of the building where each service entered the building. But, this time, because the property had 3 or more dwelling units, the local officials required that the 3 tenant services and 1 house service each have an outside main service disconnect. And, in my case, each of the 4 main service disconnects on the outside of the building look similar to what the OP has on his building. My original plan was for the main service disconnects to be inside the building, right where each service came in, but inside a utility room that only the property owner (me) could access with a key. Then, in each apartment, they would each have their own existing service panel (actually a subpanel), each with its own main cutoff breaker. But, that wasn't okay with the local code officials, so all 4 main service disconnects are now on the outside of the building. I understand why they have that requirement (fire department and other emergency shutoff capability etc), but it made me a little uncomfortable since anyone walking by could (and still can) turn off the power to any or all apartments at any time. All that I have on each outside service disconnect box now is a short twisted piece of 12 gauge wire holding each box closed (where a padlock could go). Seems a little strange to me, but that's how it is. And, it has been 2 years of so since they were installed and no one has bothered to tamper with the boxes since then. Nevertheless, I am curious if it really would be okay for me to put small padlocks on each one -- if any problems with tampering do seem to start up. *You can go ahead and put padlocks on the outside disconnects as long as each tenant will receive a key. There are special padlocks that are made to be cut with a bolt cutter that I have seen on fire sprinkler valves and fence gates to electrical equipment. The locks have a notch cut into them making it easier to cut. I think McMaster-Carr sells them. |
#30
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Jun 10, 12:29*pm, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article , *"Steve B" wrote: "HeyBub" wrote A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it. They have the best hydraulic and manual bolt cutters your tax dollars can buy. *They are world record holders for popping off padlocks. Steve Don't they pop the meters if needed? Exactly. The disconnect is most often inside the burning building. The meter usually isn't. Break the seal, pull the meter. |
#31
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Jun 10, 8:09*am, Evan wrote:
On Jun 9, 2:03*pm, "HeyBub" wrote: wrote: I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this: http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the box, had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at least once a month. *That affects all kinds of electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. *The business owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper proof. *I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something if possible. I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe the power company????? Anyone know anything about this? One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it off, but it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an emergency. Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book. (Are the codes available online?) Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage a/c compressor coil thieves. A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it. Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the building and watch it burn until someone comes with the keys or the power company comes and disconnects the circuit to that building from the street... *Which ever comes first... *Fire departments don't mess with metal tools near live electrical equipment... *Not when the entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting operations on scene... Evan- It's been so much run to have you join in the party at AHR! If nothing else you provide comic relief. I guess you don't know any firefighters or seen any in action up close. They tend not to do a lot of waiting in general. It's that whole fire thing, little fires get bigger if left unattended. My money is on them not waiting for a key. That's probably why they study & practice forceable entry ..........with a side order of "how to defeat padlocks". http://www.larchmontfire.org/images/fdny_fe.pdf (~180 pages of forceable entry techniques) http://www.firetowntrainingspecialis...20Padlocks.pdf Evan, spend less time writing & more time reading, even you might get a bit smarter. I cannot help but wonder wether you born this stupid or is it the result of serious effort (or injury) |
#32
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Jun 10, 11:52*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Evan wrote: Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage a/c compressor coil thieves. A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it. Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the building and watch it burn until someone comes with the keys or the power company comes and disconnects the circuit to that building from the street... *Which ever comes first... *Fire departments don't mess with metal tools near live electrical equipment... *Not when the entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting operations on scene... If that's the policy of YOUR fire department, it's time to move. Our firefighters are trained to deal with electrical connections, hazardous or poisonous materials, potential explosive chemicals, and virtually any other obstacle or threat they could possibly encounter. A responsible fire department certainly will not wait. For anything. About three years ago, the apartment house across the street from my place caught fire. The first piece of equipment was on the scene, so one of the commanders told me, within three minutes of the dispatch. The fire department, in short order, had FORTY-TWO pieces of equipment on the scene. I'm talking vehicles painted red that said "Fire Department." There were also unaccountably many cop cars, wreckers, and so forth. Moreover, there were - and here I'm guessing - a half dozen or more pumper trucks attached to fire plus up to seven or more blocks away awaiting the call for more water. A hundred and fifty firefighters are NOT going to be sitting around playing Scrabble waiting for a Centerpoint Energy truck to meander by. Umm... Yeah they will, if the electrical connections in question are before that means of disconnect... You can get a short circuit of tens of thousands of amps if you have any sort of arc flash on the main service feeder wires... That sort of stuff kills... Fire departments do not play hero with electrical hazards... If the main switch is locked or wet, the power is cut off by calling the power company to kill the street... Fire departments have to wait for the power company all the time... Especially when dealing with hazards due to downed wires, they are NOT electricians and NOT trained in how to wrestle live wires with hot sticks... If there is a safety hazard which prevents fire fighters from entering a structure to attack the flames directly they are quite content to water it down from outside the building to prevent the spread of fire to other structures and let it burn itself out... |
#33
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Jun 10, 12:07*pm, "
wrote: On Jun 10, 11:09*am, Evan wrote: On Jun 9, 2:03*pm, "HeyBub" wrote: wrote: I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this: http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the box, had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at least once a month. *That affects all kinds of electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. *The business owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper proof. *I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something if possible. I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe the power company????? Anyone know anything about this? One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it off, but it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an emergency. Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book. (Are the codes available online?) Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage a/c compressor coil thieves. A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it. Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the building and watch it burn until someone comes with the keys or the power company comes and disconnects the circuit to that building from the street... *Which ever comes first... *Fire departments don't mess with metal tools near live electrical equipment... *Not when the entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting operations on scene...- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Now what total BS. *Who should I believe, Evan or my lying eyes? I've been there when a fire department responded to a house on fire. Watched one of the crew members take an axe, break the electric meter seal and pry the meter out. *It came crashing to the ground. That's what real men do. *And why not? *It's safe and easy to do. *If they followed Evans armchair advice, there would be a lot of houses burned to the ground, waiting for the power company to arrive. *And what good would the disconnect in a typical house do anyway? *The vast majority of them are inside the burning house. *Firemen supposed to go inside to turn it off? LOL... You want your fire department people playing around like that ? I guess you want your tax money going to fund the 100% disability pensions of those injured on duty doing stupid things in non-OSHA approved ways which would earn the doers a Darwin Award with clusters... |
#34
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Jun 10, 10:11*pm, DD_BobK wrote:
On Jun 10, 8:09*am, Evan wrote: On Jun 9, 2:03*pm, "HeyBub" wrote: wrote: I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this: http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the box, had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at least once a month. *That affects all kinds of electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. *The business owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper proof. *I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something if possible. I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe the power company????? Anyone know anything about this? One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it off, but it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an emergency. Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book. (Are the codes available online?) Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage a/c compressor coil thieves. A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it. Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the building and watch it burn until someone comes with the keys or the power company comes and disconnects the circuit to that building from the street... *Which ever comes first... *Fire departments don't mess with metal tools near live electrical equipment... *Not when the entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting operations on scene... Evan- It's been so much run to have you join in the party at AHR! If nothing else you provide comic relief. I guess you don't know any firefighters or seen any in action up close. They tend not to do a lot of waiting in general. It's that whole fire thing, little fires get bigger if left unattended. My money is on them not waiting for a key. That's probably why they study & practice forceable entry ..........with a side order of *"how to defeat padlocks". http://www.larchmontfire.org/images/fdny_fe.pdf* *(~180 pages of forceable entry techniques)http://www.firetowntrainingspecialis...20Padlocks.pdf Evan, spend less time writing & more time reading, even you might get a bit smarter. I cannot help but wonder wether you born this stupid or is it the result of serious effort (or injury) @DD_BobK: You are the pot calling the kettle black... Biggest twit on here in a while... Fire Departments are under no obligation to aggressively attack a fire -- so if entry to the building is unsafe because of an electrical hazard, they can still put water on the flames through the window and door openings and/or douse closely abutting structures to prevent spread of the flames... Spend some time learning about arc flash and other industrial accidents... Even a small one can permanently disable or kill you... |
#35
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 20:02:35 -0700 (PDT), Evan
wrote: On Jun 10, 11:52*am, "HeyBub" wrote: Evan wrote: Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage a/c compressor coil thieves. A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it. Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the building and watch it burn until someone comes with the keys or the power company comes and disconnects the circuit to that building from the street... *Which ever comes first... *Fire departments don't mess with metal tools near live electrical equipment... *Not when the entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting operations on scene... If that's the policy of YOUR fire department, it's time to move. Our firefighters are trained to deal with electrical connections, hazardous or poisonous materials, potential explosive chemicals, and virtually any other obstacle or threat they could possibly encounter. A responsible fire department certainly will not wait. For anything. About three years ago, the apartment house across the street from my place caught fire. The first piece of equipment was on the scene, so one of the commanders told me, within three minutes of the dispatch. The fire department, in short order, had FORTY-TWO pieces of equipment on the scene. I'm talking vehicles painted red that said "Fire Department." There were also unaccountably many cop cars, wreckers, and so forth. Moreover, there were - and here I'm guessing - a half dozen or more pumper trucks attached to fire plus up to seven or more blocks away awaiting the call for more water. A hundred and fifty firefighters are NOT going to be sitting around playing Scrabble waiting for a Centerpoint Energy truck to meander by. Umm... Yeah they will, if the electrical connections in question are before that means of disconnect... Have you ever heard of a meter? You can get a short circuit of tens of thousands of amps if you have any sort of arc flash on the main service feeder wires... That sort of stuff kills... Fire departments do not play hero with electrical hazards... If the main switch is locked or wet, the power is cut off by calling the power company to kill the street... What if the main switch is in the (locked) basement? Fire departments have to wait for the power company all the time... Especially when dealing with hazards due to downed wires, they are NOT electricians and NOT trained in how to wrestle live wires with hot sticks... If there is a safety hazard which prevents fire fighters from entering a structure to attack the flames directly they are quite content to water it down from outside the building to prevent the spread of fire to other structures and let it burn itself out... Try talking about something you know something about, if you can. |
#36
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Jun 10, 8:11*pm, Evan wrote:
On Jun 10, 10:11*pm, DD_BobK wrote: On Jun 10, 8:09*am, Evan wrote: On Jun 9, 2:03*pm, "HeyBub" wrote: wrote: I have a friend who runs a business. *Their main breaker is on the outside of the building right along a busy back alley. *Inside the building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the individual breakers. *The box looks similar to this: http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the hole, which is meant for a small padlock. *The problem is that the box, had a plastic tab. *Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of the box is metal), is beyond me. *It had a lock on it, but the plastic tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at least once a month. *That affects all kinds of electronic equipment inside, and disrupts business. *The business owner is a woman who dont understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper proof. *I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something if possible. I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of legal requirements. *I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept might want to shut off the power. *This makes me question what to do. I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? *Maybe the power company????? Anyone know anything about this? One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use a cable tie through the slot and the hole. *Anyone can cut it off, but it might be enough to discourage them. *Right now all they need to do is lift the cover and shut off the breaker. *At least a cable tie would require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an emergency. Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? *I dont have the book. (Are the codes available online?) Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage a/c compressor coil thieves. A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it. Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the building and watch it burn until someone comes with the keys or the power company comes and disconnects the circuit to that building from the street... *Which ever comes first... *Fire departments don't mess with metal tools near live electrical equipment... *Not when the entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting operations on scene... Evan- It's been so much run to have you join in the party at AHR! If nothing else you provide comic relief. I guess you don't know any firefighters or seen any in action up close. They tend not to do a lot of waiting in general. It's that whole fire thing, little fires get bigger if left unattended. My money is on them not waiting for a key. That's probably why they study & practice forceable entry ..........with a side order of *"how to defeat padlocks". http://www.larchmontfire.org/images/fdny_fe.pdf**(~180 pages of forceable entry techniques)http://www.firetowntrainingspecialis...20Padlocks.pdf Evan, spend less time writing & more time reading, even you might get a bit smarter. I cannot help but wonder wether you born this stupid or is it the result of serious effort (or injury) @DD_BobK: You are the pot calling the kettle black... Biggest twit on here in a while... Fire Departments are under no obligation to aggressively attack a fire -- so if entry to the building is unsafe because of an electrical hazard, they can still put water on the flames through the window and door openings and/or douse closely abutting structures to prevent spread of the flames... Spend some time learning about arc flash and other industrial accidents... *Even a small one can permanently disable or kill you... Evan- You are the most dangerous type of contributor to AHR.... you have no idea when you;re out of your depth. Which, based on your posting, is most of the time. |
#37
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Jun 10, 8:02*pm, Evan wrote:
On Jun 10, 11:52*am, "HeyBub" wrote: Evan wrote: Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage a/c compressor coil thieves. A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it. Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the building and watch it burn until someone comes with the keys or the power company comes and disconnects the circuit to that building from the street... *Which ever comes first... *Fire departments don't mess with metal tools near live electrical equipment... *Not when the entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting operations on scene... If that's the policy of YOUR fire department, it's time to move. Our firefighters are trained to deal with electrical connections, hazardous or poisonous materials, potential explosive chemicals, and virtually any other obstacle or threat they could possibly encounter. A responsible fire department certainly will not wait. For anything. About three years ago, the apartment house across the street from my place caught fire. The first piece of equipment was on the scene, so one of the commanders told me, within three minutes of the dispatch. The fire department, in short order, had FORTY-TWO pieces of equipment on the scene. I'm talking vehicles painted red that said "Fire Department." There were also unaccountably many cop cars, wreckers, and so forth. Moreover, there were - and here I'm guessing - a half dozen or more pumper trucks attached to fire plus up to seven or more blocks away awaiting the call for more water. A hundred and fifty firefighters are NOT going to be sitting around playing Scrabble waiting for a Centerpoint Energy truck to meander by. Umm... *Yeah they will, if the electrical connections in question are before that means of disconnect... You can get a short circuit of tens of thousands of amps if you have any sort of arc flash on the main service feeder wires... *That sort of stuff kills... Fire departments do not play hero with electrical hazards... *If the main switch is locked or wet, the power is cut off by calling the power company to kill the street... Fire departments have to wait for the power company all the time... *Especially when dealing with hazards due to downed wires, they are NOT electricians and NOT trained in how to wrestle live wires with hot sticks... If there is a safety hazard which prevents fire fighters from entering a structure to attack the flames directly they are quite content to water it down from outside the building to prevent the spread of fire to other structures and let it burn itself out... the conditions are changing? First it was a simple padlock on a panel that could be dealt with in seconds, now it's downed power lines? If you're wrong in the initial discussion, change it to something that might fit your point of view? |
#38
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
wrote in message
... On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 12:23:36 -0400, "TomR" wrote: Ed Pawlowski wrote: On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:18:01 -0400, "TomR" wrote: (Are the codes available online?) Is the National Electrical Code available online? -- Yes, he http://www.garnernc.gov/Publications...cal%20Code.pdf It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to set up a free account or log in. You can save it (all 840 pages) on your hard drive as a PDF file. Then, as you see below, you can copy and paste. Thanks for the link. Thanks for pointing that out. That worked. I know that the free version that is on the NFPA.org website doesn't allow cut and paste etc. I think the only reason that they post a free read-only version is to comply with a legal decision that stated that if they are going to create regulations that apply to the public (if adopted by local governmental entities), they have to make them available for free. But, I guess that since the link that I posted is from the Garner, North Carolina government website, they decided that they are entitled to post a pdf copy the regulations that they adopted (2008 NEC) and make it both free and able to be cut-and-pasted, printed, etc. I ran into a similar problem recently when I was trying to cut and past a page from the 2006 International Residential Code. The only free version that I could find online was one that would not permit a cut and paste. Did you look here http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/florida_codes/ Plug in your state. Thanks. I did find that before at http://www.ecodes.biz/ecodes_support..._main.html,but I can only do a read-only of the document, no cut-and-paste, no printingcopies of pages, etc. |
#39
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
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#40
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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
On Jun 10, 11:53*pm, "
wrote: On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 20:02:35 -0700 (PDT), Evan wrote: On Jun 10, 11:52*am, "HeyBub" wrote: Evan wrote: Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might discourage a/c compressor coil thieves. A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it. Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the building and watch it burn until someone comes with the keys or the power company comes and disconnects the circuit to that building from the street... *Which ever comes first... *Fire departments don't mess with metal tools near live electrical equipment... *Not when the entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting operations on scene... If that's the policy of YOUR fire department, it's time to move. Our firefighters are trained to deal with electrical connections, hazardous or poisonous materials, potential explosive chemicals, and virtually any other obstacle or threat they could possibly encounter. A responsible fire department certainly will not wait. For anything. About three years ago, the apartment house across the street from my place caught fire. The first piece of equipment was on the scene, so one of the commanders told me, within three minutes of the dispatch. The fire department, in short order, had FORTY-TWO pieces of equipment on the scene. I'm talking vehicles painted red that said "Fire Department." There were also unaccountably many cop cars, wreckers, and so forth. Moreover, there were - and here I'm guessing - a half dozen or more pumper trucks attached to fire plus up to seven or more blocks away awaiting the call for more water. A hundred and fifty firefighters are NOT going to be sitting around playing Scrabble waiting for a Centerpoint Energy truck to meander by. Umm... *Yeah they will, if the electrical connections in question are before that means of disconnect... Have you ever heard of a meter? You can get a short circuit of tens of thousands of amps if you have any sort of arc flash on the main service feeder wires... *That sort of stuff kills... Fire departments do not play hero with electrical hazards... *If the main switch is locked or wet, the power is cut off by calling the power company to kill the street... What if the main switch is in the (locked) basement? Fire departments have to wait for the power company all the time... *Especially when dealing with hazards due to downed wires, they are NOT electricians and NOT trained in how to wrestle live wires with hot sticks... If there is a safety hazard which prevents fire fighters from entering a structure to attack the flames directly they are quite content to water it down from outside the building to prevent the spread of fire to other structures and let it burn itself out... Try talking about something you know something about, if you can. A friend had a bad home fire. Firefiters cut the service drop lines at the side of the house with something resembling a pole pruner. this report from my friends. who had the fire |
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